The Condescension of the Political Class and their Culpability

When I look at the political situation in both the US and UK, I don't just lay the blame at the feet of the right-leaning media, or indeed at social media, with the ease of sharing a story without giving due care and attention to its source and credibility. There's also an irritation that's been fermenting in my mind for many years....long before Trump, long before Brexit, which I can best summarize as a "there there" mentality. There are a lot of politically engaged people who actively and disgustingly condescend to people outside their peer group... who snub any engagement from anyone on the periphery, pat them on the head, metaphorically - I've felt this time and time again, not only from signed up members of political parties, but even from people on boards such as this - the idea that "oh, you don't understand, you need to read more, you're not up to thinking about the issues" etc etc.

And then I think, well, if I think that, as someone who does research things quite thoroughly, and who does have quite a wide circle of friends and acquaintances with a wide variety of views, from a wide variety of backgrounds, then is it any bloody wonder that people who are less fortunate than me feel this way, and end up fouling their own nests, as it were, out of frustration, and out of a desire to smash the system no matter what?

Any response welcomed

idk man fuck voters too yknow

remind me how much voters get paid

The less excuse to be so fuckin dirty

maybe this comes from ppl knowing that things are so (thru expert heuristics or moral intuitions or rearing & family education) but not really knowing why they are true. if you understand something (or think you do) you can explain it and, ime unless you have explanation fatigue, don't generally mind doing so. also otoh you might be talking to someone who you believe fits this paradigm and who isn't willing to learn or hear a different opinion in which case you might not want to bother. so either it's bc you don't know, or bc you think you're talking to someone willingly ignorant. a lot of ppl think that their political opponents are participating in bad faith arguments. and they're right to the extent that while people authentically + sincerely hold their most general convictions they are generally full of shit on any particular issue which they understand according to tribal logic.

the condescension of the people who grew up without financial adversity

a lot of ppl think that their political opponents are participating in bad faith arguments.

Such bad faith arguments largely originate among the political class and are diligently propagated among voters. Few of us are willing to identify and discard widely quoted but misleading arguments which favor our own preferred positions. Human nature.

to be honest Darragh you wasn't wrong

Days i move towards your position, days you move towards mine, not like either of us is delighted about it tbf

hard to imagine what a not-disappointing world would look like tbh

I don't know about this argument specifically, but most of the time in the uk when people complain about elites ignoring working people it's about things like immigration. And while there are legitimate problems, I think the left at least addresses them. There's a parallel elitism which thinks working people are troglodytic racists - most people I know are fairly anti-racist, and the rich are certainly not less racist than the poor. Sorry, that's poorly stated, but I hope the idea come through - in a tool hot pub.

I think most people are increasingly condescending towards and unwilling to entertain people who hold views that differ from their own. Myself included. I'm trying to be more aware of it and figure out how to bridge that divide. Gotta learn how to communicate with those future fascist overlords.

condescension is probably a bad thing and being obtuse is probably a bad thing and being uninterested in things is probably a bad thing and being mean to people is probably a bad thing and I don't know there's a lot of bad things if you think that way and thinking things are bad is probably a bad thing

the only language fascists understand is the language of violence. i'm ok not communicating with them.

communicate with yr fists

individuals feeling alienated from the collective enterprise of politics seems like the norm if not inevitable

hegel's idea of recognition, as I understand it, is almost tediously sensible and healthy, and seems relevant to the situation described in the OP, especially his conception of freedom as 'being with oneself in an other'. as a political reality it does seem quite a way off

I am legitimately and for serious starting to read books about communicating with difficult/illogical/irrational people as I think it's going to become an increasingly necessary skill set if I want to not live in a state of perpetual despair.

I think most people are increasingly condescending towards and unwilling to entertain people who hold views that differ from their own. Myself included. I'm trying to be more aware of it and figure out how to bridge that divide. Gotta learn how to communicate with those future fascist overlords.

― Night Jorts (Old Lunch), Tuesday, July 19, 2016 12:35 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

https://twitter.com/SonofBaldwin/status/633644373423562753

Err,

https://twitter.com/SonofBaldwin/status/633644373423562753

We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist.

@SonofBaldwin

Yes, I agree 100%. 'Future fascist overlords' was more a flip acknowledgment of my own anxieties than an indicator of parties with whom I have any desire to mend fences.

i think when your politics gets entirely overcoded with manichean notions of good and evil (which almost seems the norm these days) then, without even meaning to, you start to erode the possibility of politics as a means for the always provisional resolution of conflict. if you follow weber and see that modernity is characterized by "irreconcilable value spheres" then you also take such conflict as a permanent feature of human society. there's no hard and fast rules here, often no clear way to easily distinguish between a political position that is an existential threat to you and one that you can make accommodations with--but i think if you buy into a liberal democratic ethos (and i do!) and also reject any idea of a utopian or universal community of humanity then on some level it's incumbent upon you to make accommodations (at some risk) with those you whose beliefs you find odious and even harmful. i think it's a personal choice to decide when and how you do this, but for my own part i do believe it is necessary.

and i think, in practice, we do this every day--there just seems little political value to be gained from talking about it. (or at least little value for politicians to talk about it)

You don't need to read a book to figure out how to communicate with such people. It is very simple. Trump's sense of strategy is not, at base, fundamenally misaligned with that of the Republicans already in positions of power: There is no compromise, only submission. The only thing that matters is who holds the position of power. And somebody always holds the position of power. Equality is an illusion. If they are in power, you do what they tell you or you do not. If you are in power, they do what you tell them or not. Nothing more.

i thought he loved dealz

nah just his ghostwriter.

I think one of the most troubling things for me to have learned about recently is the extent of the smugness of the Democratic / "New" Labour / Liberal-aligned supporters of the neoliberal project, and the powerful denial of of self-reflection that comes from considering one's self "reasonable" and "responsible" in the face of extreme right-wing "populism". It's like, for example, there's no fucking way the Democratic party base is going to even consider any responsibility for the rise of Trump, when it seems like that's what reasonable people should be capable of, and should really be, doing.

Yeah, it's a way smaller percentage of culpability than the right's but the left definitely has some reflecting to do.

'the neoliberal project' you mean trade agreements yes? dems signed NAFTA and that's why trump is popular today? imo it's a pretty ahistorical analysis mostly designed to argue a particular agenda (anti-trade / protectionism or marxism) than to shed light on economic history in the west.

like the fact that a lot of white ppl are blaming trade agreements for their lack of economic opportunity does not necessarily make it true, esp when it seems like that's just a pretty transparent excuse to engage in their most base + bigoted instincts that existed long before the 90s.

Lol @ the american "left" being responsible for Trump wtf mordy otm

My reading was wrt the thread topic. Unchecked classism and condescension on the left certainly has a distancing effect with anyone who might be looking for a way off the right-wing crazy train.

And I'm talking more on a personal and individual level than a political level.

oh i guess. there's def something to the idea that cultural liberal elites in media/academy have exacerbated the blue/red cultural schism or at least participated in it willingly but idk too much of this analysis and you become moldbug.

i think there is something to this argument. immiserated rural and suburban whites haven't had a "champion" on the left. the "liberal media" -- ugh -- feted borat, a movie where a cambridge educated aristocrat runs around in offensive third world drag in places like alabama to bait people into acting racist. there is certainly a perception that middle america is a morass of ignorance. whether or not it's true is sort of secondary to the fact that a lot of voters who fear they meet that description find such depictions painful.

why would you reduce neoliberalism to trade agreements?

the argument is surely that the left has often taken the working class for granted, has been complacent about addressing their concerns, and that has left them ripe for more extreme politics

not sure who to blame for this. it's not really the democrats because obama has actively spoken against this kind of snobbery and reactionary whites still view him as enemy #1.

neoliberalism means a lot of things - some of them contradictory - but when you're blaming the "Democratic / "New" Labour / Liberal-aligned supporters of the neoliberal project" presumably you're talking about trade agreement and globalization and not welfare projects designed to preserve Capitalism.

i don't know if they took them for granted as much as wrote them off. they take working class minorities for granted but i think they've written off working class whites.

Trump's rise has more to do with structural weaknesses in the GOP party apparatus + America's longstanding history of racism/xenophobia than anything else. Those are the two biggest factors.

i think it's hard for the democratic party to advance things that would help the working class when everything from jobs projects to expanded healthcare is shot down by the republicans. every dem tax plan i've ever seen tho either holds taxes for middle class to current level, or lowers them, and includes platforms for encouraging small business. i'm curious to hear tho what kind of working/middle class legislation democrats should be championing that a) they currently aren't and b) that the republicans wouldn't immediately shoot down.

this is probably pretty different country to country, but in the UK this has meant moving away from the unions and nationalisation, introducing privatisation, supporting the city etc.

Its ahistorical to argue that racist "they stole out jobs"/"they're coming to rape and kill us" rhetoric doesnt predate neoliberalism

maybe stuff like nationalization in the UK plays better than in the US but anything that even has the whiff of that is decried as communism - we couldn't even get our pos non universal healthcare reform into existence w/out ppl going nuts that we were becoming commies. re unions, afaik republicans not democrats have presided over every union gutting measure. idk i'm willing to be schooled on this but generally the 'neoliberal' crime of the democrats is supposed to be NAFTA which, as i said, i'm not convinced is anything but a scapegoat for things like automation and the decline of manufacturing not just here but worldwide.

Lower income uneducated white cohorts were drawn to that rhetoric even when they were historically doing v well economically

Xp

these white working class voters who the democrats have lost are the most outspoken defenders of 'our way of life' / capitalism. these are the ppl who voted for the union gutting and for privatization. i suspect this bit is true about the UK too - it's very disingenuous imo to vote for these thatcher/reagan types over and over again and then when labour/dems finally go along with the program w/ the hope they can get back into office, start holding them responsible for all the neoliberalism.

I don't think there's a populist everyman identification with capitalism in that way in the UK at all. there's a strong work ethic, sense of fairness etc. and sometimes hostility to the unions but much more often to thatcherism, and the lack of a credible opposition can only lead to disengagement or extremism, surely

the question isn't who is most responsible for the current socio-economic state of affairs, it's about representation

it's just such a con job. vote for the guy who promises unbridled capitalism. when it turns out shitty, blame the other party and then vote again for the unbridled capitalism party bc you've been disenfranchised by the other party not being anti-capitalism enough. i think that's obviously bullshit + should be called out.

we don't have a trump figure here so it doesn't really map. if you say it's broadly an anti-establishment vote then you can tie it with brexit maybe, but I can't detect any hunger for rampant capitalism

trump's entire persona seems to be "rampant capitalism but this time working for you" - which differs from reaganism only in style but is the same old false promise

yes, that much is clear even from across the sea, I was talking about the UK. my sense is that anti-establishment sentiment in the US is blurred with suspiscion of big government, which has never been so popular a theme over here, just limp complaints about brussels and political correctness

I tend to agree with Treeship and ShakΟὖτις: nativist crazies are endemic to the system. They almost certainly predate the current actions of NYT/New Yorker/NPR snob contingent.

Further, even if it brands me as a card-carrying snobster, I am not sure I want to take responsibility for the following:

classism and condescension on the left certainly has a distancing effect with anyone who might be looking for a way off the right-wing crazy train

Perhaps but also so what? I suspect there was some rhetoric from the civil rights movement that "had a distancing effect" on Klansmen too. How is it the left's job to make it easier for people to stop being horrible? I'm all for inclusive vs. exclusive rhetoric. I'm all for healing vs. divisiveness.

Indeed, Obama's entry into the national scene was a widely covered speech where he said specifically that we need to reach across the red v. blue stuff and be one nation. And what did he get for his efforts? A concerted wall of resistance and unified Party of No shit.

it's hard for a lot of people on the left to be enthusiastic about "one nation" rhetoric when whatever nation it is already feels unhealthily skewed rightwards

it's hard for a lot of people on the left to be enthusiastic about "one nation" rhetoric when whatever nation it is already feels unhealthily skewed rightwards

Okay, but how is that any less condescending / offputting to people "who might be looking for a way off the right-wing crazy train"? Is the hard left any better at reaching those people than mainstream Democrats are? I think not.

we don't have a trump figure here so it doesn't really map

Oddly, just a few days ago I was listening to the BBC, and they were discussing the appointment of Boris Johnson as Foreign Minister, and the discussion went, "Well, he's said some incendiary things; is he too brash to interface properly with his counterparts, particularly in the US?"

And I'm like, "Hmmm. Terrible hair and an uncontrolled mouth? Whew! Good thing we don't have anyone like that over here!"

well i don't know, if every instance of saying "i don't agree with your politics" is gonna be condescending or offputting then there doesn't seem much point engaging in politics at all

classism and condescension on the left certainly has a distancing effect with anyone who might be looking for a way off the right-wing crazy train

liberals need to stop looking for new opportunities to self-correct. they've got that base covered.

well i don't know, if every instance of saying "i don't agree with your politics" is gonna be condescending or offputting then there doesn't seem much point engaging in politics at all

I guess there may be a possibility for non-condescending rhetoric that bridges left-leaning populism with right-leaning populism. Present both as aggrieved underdogs, brothers united against elite power.

I confess I don't know how that would go. "Hey," says the Bern-feeler to the Tea Party dood, "Sure looks like the establishment elites are uniting to screw us regular joes over. AGAIN. Howzabout we join forces in common cause? I'll ignore how you feel about blacks and gays and global warming, while you ignore how I feel about guns and Christians and meat-eating."

which brings us back to the problem with "one nation" - i feel like there are some beliefs you just can't find common ground with or make common cause with and bigotry is right up there on the list

'the neoliberal project' you mean trade agreements yes? dems signed NAFTA and that's why trump is popular today? imo it's a pretty ahistorical analysis mostly designed to argue a particular agenda (anti-trade / protectionism or marxism) than to shed light on economic history in the west.

― Mordy, Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:03 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

NAFTA is part of it - I'd say the drive toward deregulation (including such things as the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act) is another part; the "free market" as the basis for practically any proposed solution to practically every problem we face, from climate change to health care coverage is another. I guess I'm reaching a bit calling it a project, trying to name something that is probably, for lots of people, mostly a mix of a worldview and a catastrophic failure of imagination. Twp phrases that have come to mind nearly every day of my adult life: "There is no alternative" and "Hurrah! Die Butter ist alle!"

So how that relates to Trump, to me, is that there's no flying fucks to be given for working people, and the Democratic Party seems to be working very hard to make sure that continues to be the case.

put in more pragmatic (programatic?) terms the working class might find that the democratic party is much more malleable and movable regarding their needs than the party they default to since like 1968

I think one of the most troubling things for me to have learned about recently is the extent of the smugness of the Democratic / "New" Labour / Liberal-aligned supporters of the neoliberal project, and the powerful denial of of self-reflection that comes from considering one's self "reasonable" and "responsible" in the face of extreme right-wing "populism". It's like, for example, there's no fucking way the Democratic party base is going to even consider any responsibility for the rise of Trump, when it seems like that's what reasonable people should be capable of, and should really be, doing.

― Gaz Coombes? He's not British or something, is he? (Display Namf oh shit)

yeah i'm really troubled that there are some alleged "leftists" who don't spend most of their time excoriating themselves for their perceived failures.

lol touche

Notice I didn't say anything about how troubled I thought you were, nor did I say anything about alleged "leftists".