THE KILLING OF A SACRED DEER (2017) dir. Yorgos Lanthimos, feat. Colin Farrell, Nicole Kidman

I hated this movie. It made my blood boil. Fuck. Lanthimos is an alien sadist committing senseless violence on arthouse crowds. He makes Lars Von Trier look like Douglas Sirk. I thought the same of Dogtooth but not nearly to the same degree. I liked The Lobster because it actually had (relatively) real people, real characters, & its fantastical conceit was ostensibly in the service of love and people searching for love. It was brutal and cruel but it contained themes beyond sadism for its own sake. There is NO emotion in this movie. Robots reciting blunt cruel dialogue and long, lingering shots of the most horrible sadistic scenarios I've seen in any movie in years. It's Saw for people that think they're above torture porn. God, fuck this guy. I'm never seeing another movie by him again. anyway what did y'all think

I missed the screening. My critics group loved The Lobster enough to vote it the best film of 2016 (I was pleased it wasn't Moonlight).

Anyway, a movie needn't show interest in love or people searching in love to suck.

I agree, I didn't love The Lobster, but relatively speaking, it had traces of humanity and meaning and themes beyond the meaningless cruelty of this one and Dogtooth.

Haven’t seen Dogtooth since it was out in theaters, but I thought it was one of the better films of the year at the time. Inclined to believe it wouldn’t hold up too well upon rewatch.

The Lobster wavered between tedious and actively irritating. Found its stylistic quirks obnoxious.

I’ll watch the new one when it’s streaming somewhere.

Just found out his next one, The Favorite, has already been shot and will be out next year. feat. Emma Stone, Rachel Weisz. as much as I despised this movie swearing off a director that can make you feel as angry as he made me is silly...

*The Favourite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Favourite_(film)

Name alone demands murder

I didn't find Dogtooth meaningless either; think i voted it #2 in the Sl4nt survey that year.

since I'm above torture porn, i should go

Rewatched The Lobster the other day, and it was such a big step forward. Mainly the cinematography was more unique. But here it's boring tracking shots and cliché suburbia satire. I dislike calling him out for 'robots reciting blunt cruel dialogue' since the blunt dialogue is quite common for esl directors, and Lanthimos just leans into the uncanniness. I think he is one of the best non-English speaking writers of dialogue in English, though that is a fairly stupid thing to be.

For some weird reason I like the fact that the 'Sacred Deer' in the ancient myth refers to the reason the dad (Agamemnon) is punished and has to kill a family member. Which means that the Sacred Deer in the film is the dad who died on the operating table before the film began.

Loved the Lobster, p curious about this one

Dogtooth > Lobster >>> Deer

Before I saw this movie, I was thinking about rewatching Dogtooth bc I haven't seen it since it came out 7 years ago, I didn't hate it as much as my family, thought it was interesting but wayyyyyyyyy overhyped, especially locally (was a huge hit at the film festival here, iirc their best selling movie ever). And incredibly sadistic in service of p banal themes imo. But was gonna give it another go. Now I have an anti-gravitational feeling towards this guy's work. I should rewatch Dogtooth but it's gonna be a while. Never saw Alps, the one in between Dogtooth and The Lobster.

I dislike calling him out for 'robots reciting blunt cruel dialogue' since the blunt dialogue is quite common for esl directors, and Lanthimos just leans into the uncanniness. I think he is one of the best non-English speaking writers of dialogue in English, though that is a fairly stupid thing to be.

I don't agree- off the top of my head Olivier Assayas, Joachim Trier, Guillermo del Toro, and Denis Villeneuve write much better scripts than Lanthimos, whose predilections go beyond the "uncanny," especially in this movie. My criticism is that the sadism and cruelty is the film is completely unmoored from any humanity, rendering it effectively meaningless. Sadism for its own sake. I wouldn't accuse any of the other directors of the same. Lanthimos' movies lack humanity.

The closest comparison imo is Lars Von Trier, who writes equally blunt and cruel scripts, but when I watch Breaking the Waves, or Dancer in the Dark, or Dogville, or even the fantastical Melancholia, I see real people and explorations of real situations that are facts of life. The lesson of LVT's movies is often "sometimes everything that can go wrong does." Lanthimos' movies all take place in affectless alien worlds with arbitrary rules, unexplained conceits, and actors that bark blunt dialogue like telemarketer robots. If this movie was about Agamemnon, he certainly took a roundabout and willfully obtuse way of approaching the myth.

is it not possible to read this one as a pitch-black comedy? (i have no idea, aint seen)

I'm surprised the reviews have been this good:

http://www.metacritic.com/movie/the-killing-of-a-sacred-deer/critic-reviews

I think it's possible and plausible to read it as a pitch-black comedy. I laughed multiple times.

Also, I was at least part-time ingesting it as a satire on the end of the patriarchy.

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I don't have kids but I found this movie sickening & insanely cruel & I can only imagine the reaction a parent would have.

I don't begrudge anyone hating this, fwiw. xp yeah, for that very reason

Though (spoiler) one of the most amusing aspects of the movie for me is the rest of the family positioning themselves in as positive a light as possible.

flappy bird, he literally named the film after the Agamemnon myth. And Iphigenia is mentioned in the film, iirc. How obvious do you want him to be?

Also, I said dialogue, not script. Trier (and Eskil Vogt, his co-writer, whose own film Blind was shot by Lanthimos' regular cinematographer, btw) write absolutely great scripts, but is there a single line worth remembering in Louder Than Bombs? But Lanthimos' characters have their own way of talking, like all those stupid discussions of wrist watches in Deer. The struggle as an esl-writer is always getting tone right, Lanthimos solves this with the completely affectless discussion of pointless details. And it's kinda glorious, imo. One of his biggest strengths, one of the only things I thought worked in Deer.

a few lines i laughed at (like Farrell saying "if he died it was the anesthesiologist's fault, not mine," and the anesthesiologist saying "if he died it was the surgeon's fault, not mine"). and i love black comedies so so much. but this ain't it

xp fred- there isn't a line from Deer that I remember other than the one i mentioned above. and you didn't mention the other directors i noted- i was talking about dialogue. Personal Shopper was a beautiful film, my favorite of the year so far. Arrival & the new Blade Runner were very well written imo. I respect Lanthimos because he's an uncompromising artist with an original vision, (and btw the cinematography is often really great and engaging), but I'm completely at odds with his predilections and sensibilities. I don't find the connection to Agamemnon meaningful at all. i'm a broken record by now but to me Deer was an exercise in clinical, methodical cruelty, acted out by emotionless robots. You can't say that about any of the other directors I mentioned.

I don't find characters rambling on about mundane/banal details especially innovative or interesting, either.

Villeneuve didn't write neither Arrival nor Blade Runner...

And I haven't seen Personal Shopper, but Assayas usually solves the esl conundrum by having his characters being esl speakers as well. I have never noticed any dialogue from del Toro.

ah shit, shoulda double checked that, my b

Assayas' previous two films starred Kristen Stewart, and Personal Shopper especially was incredibly moving and features my favorite opening 20 minutes / and final shot & line of the last 5 years or so. Her characters in both films were really well written. Again I didn't find the dialogue in Deer notable, so I think our sensibilities are just different here.

I have never noticed any dialogue from del Toro

Was going to object on this one too, but I'll wait til his new one disappoints me.

I really liked Clouds of Sils Maria, so I'm perfectly ready to believe Personal Shopper is great. Didn't see it. But again, I just don't remember the dialogue being the great thing about Sils Maria. (And the dialogue in Lobster is definitely better than in Deer)

Definitely agree on that second point.

In all honesty, I'm not much of a fan of Lanthimos either, I just really love The Lobster, and even being quite disappointed in Deer didn't make me reconsider that one.

Flappy, your immediate and seemingly one-dimensional reaction of sheer repulsion to this ("I'll never watch a movie of this guy again!") sounds a bit off. Maybe not 'off' but hard to relate to. You describe it as a cruel, cruel film and wish to never be moved that way again. You are a Roeg-fan though, right? Just saying your critique has only piqued my interest even more.

And Fred B. is otm, the link with the Agamemnon/Iphigenia myth is so obvious, I can't wait to see how he plays that out, even if it is in a seemingly "emotionless" way. Especially in that way, tbf.

Idk, and I have yet to see it, but I get the feeling that if Lanthimos read your first post here, he'd be nodding in agreement, going "excellent... excellent." He did move you, in a big way, to dig in the trenches and defend a position that this is rubbish and cruel, "torture porn". Again, not seen it (yet), but he can't have done everything wrong, going off of your criticism of it.

Assayas wrote exemplary dialogue in French and English until Sils Marie.

Yeah I made that post a few hours after leaving the theater. I was heated. Of course I'll see his next movie. I said a few posts upthread that I respect Lanthimos a lot because he's an uncompromising artist with a powerful vision, and yes, he absolutely moved and manipulated me. But I don't find the mythical connection interesting at all, imo it doesn't imbue the sheer brutality of the movie with any more meaning, or justify its cruelty. Fair point on Roeg, you could certainly say the same things I said re: Deer about one of my favorite movies, Bad Timing. Can't say why atm. Curious to see what others think as this movie's distribution spreads, saw someone compare it to Mother!, and fwiw I hated that movie but this movie is 100x more brutal and cruel and challenging.

meant to say... I can't think of a way to express why I find Bad Timing so compelling & moving vs. Lanthimos. but it's a completely fair & otm comparison

Robots reciting blunt cruel dialogue and long, lingering shots of the most horrible sadistic scenarios I've seen in any movie in years.

Sold.

It's a great move, perhaps even his best. Don't understand the hysteria in the opening post.

I...think I liked it. At the very lest it's an even more impressive triumph of tone and pace than The Lobster and Dogtooth. No explanations either. I'm not sure about the ending.

I think it's possible and plausible to read it as a pitch-black comedy. I laughed multiple times.

"I won't let you leave until you try my tart!"

Yeah also don't know about "torture porn" this just played as... a horror movie, for me

Don't agree that the film has no emotion either, in fact what I felt most interesting about the film was the way the performances (all of which were brilliant) strained against the usual Lanthimos™ mode, eg Farrell doing all the recitative stuff while also convincingly playing this peevish suburban dad, & ditto he & Kidman gradually getting to the end of their ropes while keeping it deadpan. Pace Fred I quite liked the celluloidish aesthetic too.

Definitely didn't love it tho, felt like a Lanthimos™ coming to the end of its usefulness esp things like the compulsive acting out of sexual scenarios (the sex scene with Kidman feels like total self-parody)

Kidman and Farrell were terrific: the latter even more deadpan funny than in TL; the former giving, in David Ehrlich phrase, a "quietly broken performance."

The sex play didn't work because they acted as if they couldn't even work up a passion to conceive their two kids.

seein this tonight

I keep misreading this thread as The Killing of a Chinese Bookie - which I want to watch again tbh.

the killing of a sacred chinese bookie

Hated the hell out of this. Great technical filmmaking, even great acting, but every character reacting and speaking completely inhuman made this nonsense ridiculous and awful.

That made it more plausible -- it's in its own world.

My criticism is that the sadism and cruelty is the film is completely unmoored from any humanity, rendering it effectively meaningless. Sadism for its own sake. I wouldn't accuse any of the other directors of the same. Lanthimos' movies lack humanity.

what is it with you people looking for humanity in a Lanthimos picture

and I don't get the Haneke comparisons. Haneke is rarely funny.

I half agree. This is what Haneke's browbeating early horror movies would've been if they had something like a sense of humor.

LOL @ fred saying the dialogue is stilted because lanthimos is esl

this was p good, like a 6.5/10 maybe. found it a tad monotonous; once the main dramatic thrust was set in motion there wasn't that much else to do but let it work itself out, without a twist in sight. Keoghan was the best part for me, so perfectly creepy. could see him becoming hot in an Adam Driver way

And Fred B. is otm, the link with the Agamemnon/Iphigenia myth is so obvious, I can't wait to see how he plays that out, even if it is in a seemingly "emotionless" way. Especially in that way, tbf.

this was a weird post to make without having seen the movie; aside from the obvious 'sacrifice of a child' i don't think he 'plays it out' at all. the movie also confusingly/stupidly begins with Schubert 'jesus christos' and ends with bach st john passions lol. i mean not as bad as 'mother!' but still

https://letterboxd.com/gemko/film/the-killing-of-a-sacred-deer/

Tone is everything here—I'd love to know how much painstaking trial-and-error was involved in crafting such magnificently stilted, awkward performances from these accomplished actors.

idk I read an interview with Yorg where he said he was pretty hands off and they just, read it that way?

otoh I read an interview with Nicole where she said she ate a lot of mashed potatoes and that's why she was so mad when her character in the last act was asked to make mashed potatoes

Sims: It is a very different role in The Killing of a Sacred Deer. In The Lobster, he’s very befuddled, it’s a more outwardly comedic character, while here his character is on top of the world. What kind of an impression did you want him to give at the start of the movie?

Lanthimos: We don’t talk much; I try not to say too many things with the actors. Not to analyze too many things about the film, because I think it’s better for the process. The way I work, and the material we work with, I think if you analyze too much and have too many specific ideas, it just becomes a little bit too superficial, and then performances might become too self-conscious and project relatively narrow things. Whereas I cherish ambiguity, and surprise, and actors that are present in the moment, and not trying to get through particular ideas in the scene, or in the moment. That approach limits the resonance of scenes in general. So I do try to stay away, as much as possible, from having too many detailed discussions about what it is, and what the character is. Definitely no background story—all I know is what’s on the page.

And of course, Colin knows that, from working together before. So he did have questions at the beginning, probably something like what you said. The only thing I remember, the only thing we discussed, is he said, “This is more of a grounded world, right? It’s more real?” And I said, “Yeah, yeah. But, you know.” And he said, “Yeah, I know.” He’s a very smart guy, he has a great sense of humor, he gets our work, and he gets the material. You don’t have to go into great length trying to explain it or figure it out. It’s just about fine-tuning, about helping the actors find the right volume, or tone, or speed. So I work more in physical ways like that. Usually, I say, “This is too loud, or too slow,” I never go too intellectual with their performances.

Sims: There is a particular rhythm to your dialogue and how it’s delivered. So I assume you take care that everything is said in that rhythm.

Lanthimos: Yeah. That’s partially true, but I think the writing and the material also has a very strong imprint, it’s kind of there. All the talented and smart actors, they get it; as soon as it comes out of their mouth, they know if it’s right or wrong. If the writing has a particular voice, they get it, and they can hit it. I’ve been very lucky, and I’ve worked with great actors, and actors that know and appreciate my previous work, and that helps a lot as well. They’re aware of the universe, though every film is different, obviously. But I think they understand the intention.

I liked this movie but kinda agree with the critic that called it the "feel-bad movie of the year"

lol i guess i went to the bathroom during the part when Colin Farrell tells his son "a secret" that he walked in on his dad jerking off and finished him off and then his son says "I don't have any secrets"

this reminds me of when i went to the bathroom and missed amy adams jerking of PSH in the master 5 years ago

there was a fuck ton of dark humor in this film

and it was the second time i had seen it, i saw the movie the day before and still somehow missed it

xp ha yeah thats def the funniest thing though

I just saw bad moms xmas before this. If you watch bad moms xmas before this you will think this is the most uplifting, life-affirming movie ever. bad moms xmas is more cynical and hateful of humanity than haneke.

lol i guess i went to the bathroom during the part when Colin Farrell tells his son "a secret" that he walked in on his dad jerking off and finished him off and then his son says "I don't have any secrets"

― flappy bird, Tuesday, November 14, 2017 11:22 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this reminds me of when i went to the bathroom and missed amy adams jerking of PSH in the master 5 years ago

― flappy bird, Tuesday, November 14, 2017 11:23 PM

the lesson is not to walk around during any movie for fear you'll miss a jerking-off scene

Favorite exchange in this movie is when the daughter says Martin is “so funny” and Colon Ferrel replies “Yes, he is”

Colon Farrell!

I liked this a lot. The framing and the camera movements are incredible, so watching someone walk along a hospital corridor is more like watching them falling slowly down a lift shaft. The acting and physicality of bodies are amazing, particularly from Colon F and Barry Keoghan -that boy's face!- but watching the kids drag themselves down stairs or fall out of bed was excellent as well. Dialogue and delivery were both incredibly well sustained and extremely funny. I mean, it's a bit long and the ending is gratuitously cruel but I forgive it.

I enjoyed the banalities of the watch conversations

Haven't back-read the whole thread yet... this has obvious DNA in late Kubrick, ie EWS (unavoidably with Kidman) and The Shining (tho less pompous and, uh, better). I think Lanthimos probably achieved exactly what he set out to do.

First hour is kind of a riot, and intermittently after that. The obsession over possessions (watches, mp3 players) is hit really hard, and I enjoyed the toneless line readings of the banalities-as-jokes ("Our daughter started menstruating last week," "We all have lovely hair," most of what Barry Keoghan says as Martin). The last half-hour is both sillier and less funny, but even though this might be the most problematic of the 4 YL features I've seen, I had a good time.

(I also admire his loyalty to his Greek cinematographer and cowriter.)

had a bit of a minor feel, but hella fun nonetheless.

I'd encourage OP flappy b to try it again but that seems unlikely.

stellar performances

this was so far from pointless sadism that I'm speechless. you were just in a mood dude

I probably will someday. At the time, felt like a step backward from The Lobster and a regression into the punishment and sadism/brutality of Dogtooth. But he's a softie compared to Haneke, for example.

I mean, I still need to revisit Dogtooth and it's been 10 years.

KOASD and especially Dogtooth are way better than The Lobster

every character reacting and speaking completely inhuman made this nonsense ridiculous and awful.

it's how ppl now 'deeply' discuss politics on ILX

for example, your parachuting into threads to dis Joe Biden.

or something OTM. In fact Alps is comfortably better than The Lobster too.

I'd say this and Dogtooth are his fully realized attempts at maintaining a tone. I've used the latter in my film class the last two semesters.

for example, shoot em all

I'd say this and /Dogtooth/ are his fully realized attempts at maintaining a tone.

I'd say this and Dogtooth are his fully realized attempts at maintaining a tone. I've used the latter in my film class the last two semesters.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, May 30, 2020 9:39 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

OTM, they seem closer to his core, his heart music. The Lobster and The Favourite are for people that don't really fuck with him. I will revisit Dogtooth as soon as our video store reopens.
what is Alps like in this context?

that's good to know, i thought the favourite was really brilliant, was amazed it was 'acclaimed' as it seemed to imaginative, interesting and enjoyable to be liked by the metacritics. the deer one sucked, the lobster was only primarily enjoyable to me for seeing so accurately the dystopic hell of dublin and the wicklow mountains (the fucking gards in the dundrum centre!). not really sure what his irish connection is, loads of his films seem to get irish film board money, which is hardly lucrative (though much more adventurous than the uk counterpart at least). i guess i'll skip the rest. i also hated that tsangari film about the stag party on a boat fwiw

I like The Favourite too, a hilarious take on prestige costume pictures.

Steady tension, intrigue, beautiful shots, Nicole typically brilliant even if you hate her, great score -- Deer's biggest problem is you can't just give us 3 minutes of Alicia Silverstone, that's cruel

sorry I dropped a "Seems like" at the beginning of the second sentence up there, my typing is shit today

what is Alps like in this context?
― flappy bird, Saturday, 30 May 2020 21:48 (fifty-three minutes ago)

Pure uncut Lanthimos, and takes the fucked-up family dymanics of Dogtooth to another level: family between strangers, and perverse roleplay sex as part of the bargain. Angeliki Papoulia is amazing in it.

I want to see Alps. I liked Dogtooth, The Lobster and The Killing of a Sacred Deer but they weren't as satisfying to me as The Favourite

xp Haha i will check it out, altho iirc there was never a US/region 1 disc release (?)

The Lobster and The Favourite are for people that don't really fuck with him.

Haven't seen the latter but heavy, heavy disagree on the former, and don't really understand how anyone who's actually watched his whole filmography would ever arrive at such a conclusion. I'm assuming this is implying some sort of watering down or selling out to mainstream commercial movie tastes from these two compared to the rest of his films? Which I think is absolutely ridiculous; I can't think of any established filmmaker working today less concerned with such things than Lanthimos. I've seen almost everything he's made, liked if not loved all of them aside from Sacred Deer (not awful but far from my favorite) and I'd say the Lobster is as quintessential and stylistically representative of his wider filmography as any of it. The fact that it's not quite as bleak or exhausting as something like Alps or Sacred Deer, or that it has a "big name" actor like Colin Farrell (who stars with Nicole freakin Kidman of all people in Sacred Deer!) in the lead doesn't change that at all IMO.

The Favourite is just about the closest thing we're gonna get these days to prime Ken Russell.

The Lobster still his funniest movie imho

xxp nah I just meant it is less extreme than Deer or Dogtooth, and I agree it's his funniest movie. The premise could easily be a Hollywood comedy. I don't think anyone can argue The Lobster is less accessible than Deer or Dogtooth, but that doesn't mean it's compromised or watered down.

The title alone steered me away from this when it came out, but I stumbled over it on Netflix and, primarily because of Nicole Kidman, gave it a try.

Found the middle half compelling, after a slow start; liked it less the more literal and graphic it became towards the end. Not a clue what it wants to say, if anything, other than to observe that Martin struck me as a prototypical Columbine-type killer (although maybe it's just that he reminds me of one of the kids in Elephant). Alicia Silverstone's presence as bizarre as everything else. Echoes of Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery."

Lanthimos is obviously a very adept director, but I was glad that The Favourite took him out of the usual claustrophobic personal ideas of his previous films.

There's a trope I dislike in this film that I trace back to Hitchcock: "a character did something somewhat bad, and that's the possible justification for all that happens to them". Like if Martin's father hadn't died, and he just showed up and tormented the family, you would have a banal supernatural horror film - but when you add this question, it preys on the viewer's sense of guilt and responsibility. "Maybe the whole family didn't deserve to suffer, but the punishment was (maybe, sort of) motivated".

I agree with that.

The things that I remember about this film are the very high camera placement as characters walk through the hospital corridors and also the very good dialogue around the watch/watch strap, is it?

I prefer a leather strap

I once called this the feel-bad movie of the year, but I've seen at least three that are worse in that regard since this came out

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad, quick, Bob’s dying!

This kind of had everything. Unbelievably funny. The dialogue surgically removes the historicity of the story and allows it to enter the mythological place it’s going for. Utterly Greek: Blunt statements of the world that “is” with an complete disregard for the world that appears. This is done both through the story beats: Dad’s wrestle with reality. But more interestingly through the language of the film, which doesn’t allow any pretension. I’m personally spending a lot of time with Greeks atm and this just made a lot of sense