Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

‪I honestly don’t know where else to talk to about this.

So a longtime IRL friend (we’ve been friends since 7th grade) of mine who I still hang out with fairly frequently
has enmeshed himself in the online circle of aggrieved man-children surrounding “comicsgate” and the Right-ish shithead politics involved with it. He himself recently finished a graphic novel and is trying to raise money to get it independently published, which I suspect was how he got sucked into this.

Recently I noticed a rightward slant to a lot of his social media posts but it wasn’t until today when I took a closer look and saw that he’s been hobnobbing with a lot of alt-right adjacent type folks and actively arguing with “SJWs”. He’s always been an opinionated, stubborn bastard (as am I) but his opinions were usually relegated to things like comics and movies. Now he’s apparently following dudes like Stephen Crowder and tweeting recommendations for books by Ben Shapiro. BEN MOTHERFUCKING SHAPIRO. Ugh.

Maybe I’m a shitty friend but that’s kinda beyond the pale, no? I can’t expect everyone in my life to share my politics but some kind of baseline “don’t be a right-wing piece of shit” rule still applies, right?

It’s just heartbreaking because he’s not a jerk at all IRL. He’s always been a good friend and has helped me out and had my back numerous times. But in his online life he’s kinda turning into a real “why won’t you let me debate you, coward” sort of douche.

So far this hasn’t come up because these days we don’t really interact online much (and in fact it was only today I realized how far down the rabbit hole he’d gone). We get together to do pub trivia once a week and that’s usually our hang out time.

He’s aware of my political leanings but then again I’m not sure he understands why his newfound preoccupation with owning “SJWs” online would be alarming to me. I feel debating him would be fruitless. I’m too thin-skinned anyway. I dunno. This is such a bummer to me.

I think lightly sticking to the “that’s not really my experience, why do you say that?” soft peddling of dissent works if you’re trying to remain friends. Being involved in his non-political social life helps, because sometimes this shit is contrarian internet junk where dudes lack a really social outlet and decide the best way to do so is to get really angry and blow off steam, which is where these outrage merchants really dig in

If you do feel the need to call out, be cautious and stick to issues and not widespread anti-whatever stances. As much as those types like to complain about identity politics, they tend to stick all of their issues together and anyone challenging one piece is an affront to their adopted conservative identity.

Being involved in his non-political social life helps, because sometimes this shit is contrarian internet junk where dudes lack a really social outlet and decide the best way to do so is to get really angry and blow off steam, which is where these outrage merchants really dig in

Yeah he’s always been the type to adopt an opinion and be extremely, rigidly adamant about it and then later adopt a completely different opinion and act as if he’d always thought that way. Being his friend for almost 25 years I’m pretty used to that but this time his gripes and resentments are being reinforced by a whole community of fellow agry nerds with which he networks. It’s kind of terrifying, to be honest.

The only remotely “comforting” aspect of this whole business is that most of my friend’s bullshit is currently confined to the world of comics. Which is probably why I haven’t noticed it until now.

I suppose, to add a minor point to what mh has said, stick to the talking about the ideas/behaviours rather than making it personal ("that idea doesn't ring true to me" rather than "you're wrong and bad, and here's why")? Possibly implicit too, but I often find that approach works better than personalising things too much.

I have this, though its a relative (in their 30s). Its been gradually increasing over the last few years, jordan peterson, ben shapiro, there are 37 genres now , snowflakes, virtue signalling, brexit, cultural marxism, jacob rees mogg, socialists. The own understanding or nuance isn't there, the straight repetition of right wing talking points.

What to do? the conclusion Ive come to, is...nothing. You have to look at yourself here, what is this debating you're imagining is going to happen. A debate is when two people accept the premise or framework of such. If you think you're going to go in their house and change their mind, it doesnt work like that. Any 'debate' should be initiated by them, not you, and only partake if they are asking you something, not if they are telling you something and putting a question mark on the end. Otherwise, you're being used by someone honing their opinion, you're fulfilling a role. The radicalized person never asks open questions.

But also you have to be honest with yourself - any kind of "yes, but dont you think that"....this is no good, for anyone!

I think when this happens you're dealing with something more existential than a debate really covers. 'Are you one of us, or not, anything else is just hot air'. I was once asked in email, by my relative, about my thoughts on the situation with Russia. I have a fairly detailed answer trying to cover as many bases as possible. Did it make any difference to anything? Ive no idea because there it was never mentioned again, it wasnt what they were looking for, they were looking for Britain good Russia bad - any detail on it, they saw as obsfucation, a dilution of the greater point. I will answer if they ask questions like this, and answer in good faith, but I wont push anything. Any such debate is framed around 'winning' (damn, all those videos on youtube where somebody is EVISCERATING or DESTROYING somebody else!)

I have a simple(ish) rule, if someone asks me openly or in good faith, I will respond the same. If someone talks at me, the best they'll get is "nah, not for me, dont see that at all", but they are more likely to get "ah, no idea, dunno owt about it mate". You don't have to be involved in statements masquerading as conversations!

Sorry its a bit unfocussed, Ive had this on the go for a while! quite hard to condense thoughts on the fly

One thing that struck me about this form of self-radicalization is how much its about repetition - simplification and repetition. For people making the mistake of engaging on some of these topics, its not about being on the right or wrong side of that topic, its about having that topic be the one with airtime, conversation time. A conversation about 'the BBC and the universities are brainwashing youth with cultural marxism, the police will come after you for using the wrong pronoun, Birmingham is now a no go city run by muslims". Really? This isn't a conversation that even deserves 'I don't see it like that", or any of my time! Its better to steer conversation elsewhere. Its better for this to be taking up less of their thought and talk time, and its certainly better for it to be taking up less of mine.

De-radicalizing people, i think is better achieved by getting them to think about some other damn things, engaging just hardens still further

(not saying your friend is or isnt radicalized, but when people talk and it sounds like their repeating the words of someone else, well)

I'm not a good enough person to try to save anyone, I write off people who go beyond dipping their toes in the waters of Peterson/Shapiro/et al.. I struggle to be comfortably social with even 'mainstream' Republicans these days, the American conservative worldview is so aggressively reactionary and hateful - your average suburban GOP voter just hasn't progressed to saying the quiet part loud.

sage stuff from anvil there

yep

also youre not his da, short answer

Repeating "I've never seen that" helps, as often it gets a "well, neither have I but" acknowledgement.

why not murder them

NAILS IT

get over it. people have opinions. furthermore people are more than their media consumption habits and painting somebody as "infected" because of their media choices is some weird dehumanization Othering that shouldnt impact a real life friendship. OP says they are irl friends that hang out w this person once a week. you don't feel comfortable discussing political topics with them in real life, yet you will make a big post on the internet and talk about them with strangers? this passive aggressive signalling through media choices has poisoned YOUR mind as well.

if it's a person you care about irl then talk to them. if you can't stand their social media posts you can hide them. it is like a two click action. if you need everyone of your friends to subscribe to the same media you do then it would seem the friendship is secondary to your social media feed. get over yourself.

https://i.imgur.com/1WU8ron.jpg

being into comicsgate is not about "media preferences"

To be honest, the main issue for me isn’t “can I change his mind?” That won’t happen. It’s more, “can I continue being friends with him?” If he stays confined to complaining about “SJWs” ruining the comics industry online, maybe, but if it devolves beyond that? I’m not sure it will, but I can’t tell anymore. It seems like a lot of seemingly sane people’s brains have been broken over the last few years.

Uh, x-post

Adam, your post is more than a little fucked. 'Dehumanization' and 'othering' is exactly what this shit is all about. It's informed by very thinly-veiled white supremacy, and that kind of reappropriation of the language of oppression is exactly what they use to paint themselves as victims. 'Victims' of people who just want to see their own perspectives represented in media which is overwhelmingly white and male and hetero. You don't get to champion a viewpoint like that and then brush it off with a 'but I'm a cool guy otherwise'.

I wasn't even aware of comicsgate before this thread but of course there's a comicsgate, and of course it's in opposition to the exact comics and creators I would've expected. Expected but depressing as hell.

I dunno, man, no one can really tell you whether to remain friends with someone or not. Personally, I couldn't, but then I've never had trouble disconnecting myself from toxic people. The employment of 'SJW' as a pejorative is so pernicious because that particular utterance is several steps removed from what it's actually saying. You pooh-pooh the SJWs, which means you're against the social justice warriors, which tells me that you're against social justice, which in turn suggests you're for social injustice. And if you're a straight white dude, that tells me pretty much everything I need to know.

Shunning and ostracization are underrated methods of letting people know that their antisocial (in the most literal sense) views/behavior are unacceptable, imo.

I dunno, they seem pretty popular right now and I don't see them having much of an effect. Not that you need the effect to be clear, I don't think I could remain friends with a comicsgater either.

won't somebody save the alt-right from dehumanization and othering lmao

Is comicsgate different than gamergate? I've cut off ties with most of my family because of their abhorrent views. I am not making small talk and sharing my life with them out of duty when they believe and say shitty things about women and other races. I put in my time trying to rationalize or have them try to restrain themselves. Out.

It’s basically Gamergate 2

From what I can tell, anyway

Lovely. Sigh.

it is absolutely a personal decision to make. personally i have enough problems in my life and i don't need "friends" who are continually spewing toxic bullshit, whether it's openly or on a passive aggressive level. i'm not equivocating here, but i haven't found this to be a specifically right-wing problem. leftists who spend most of their time, in 2018, complaining about how terrible hillary clinton is will get the chopping block just as surely as anybody who uses the term "sjw" pejoratively will.

i've said it before and i'll keep saying it - when i cut people off it's not because i'm judging them as inferior. if anybody is "inferior" it's me, because i haven't got the energy to put up with that sort of thing anymore. i'm totally occupied with my own crazy, and don't have time for anybody else's.

^^^ This too. I've had to put space between friends that I like but they spend all day texting me mundane complaints about shit everyone hates.

The Clintons are terrible tbf

This thread has really great clusterfuck potential

completely baffled by adam's post. latebloomer, you have my sympathies, i don't know what exactly i'd do. i'm on a weekly bar trivia team as a device to regularly see a certain cluster of friends and shoot the shit about movies, and i really can't imagine it being an enjoyable or meaningful experience if below the surface was the awareness that one of them is carrying water for alt-right talking points as a way of blowing off steam online or whatever it is. that's not a person i want in my life. but the exact etiquette and approach of making that cut, i don't know. for me personally, if they were really committed to this stuff i couldn't stay friends (and probably, we would have drifted apart long ago for not having much in common). we've spent a lot of time talking about this w/ regard to right-wing family, but friends are a slightly different matter in a lot of ways...

if it's not QUITE to that point... hrrrrrm. i imagine staging an intervention would only feed the "libs are out to shut us down" mentality, but is there some viable version of "hey, man, i noticed you've been expressing some intense feelings online, has everything been okay?" or maybe even a way around to discussing his emotional state/life situation without mentioning the political stuff --- you're not his therapist, but if you are his friend it is mayyyyybe conceivable that he's still early in being seduced by this stuff (or susceptible to it being a brief phase that he later looks back on with embarrassment). and that it might be genuinely useful to open up a channel to talk about whatever it is that's leading him to frustration and grievance and blaming-the-sjws. it depends what kind of friendship it is, how close you are, how much cred you have with him versus how much he feels the youtube mini-limbaughs really get him, how much work it's worth to you, all of that stuff.

I liked South Park's depiction of Kyle's dad staying up nights to troll online like it's his job while drinking red wine.

If you have a racist friend
Now is the time, now is the time
People have opinions. Get over it.

I mean, wrt this particular sitch, I can hang with people who don't agree with me politically/philosophically/religiously/etc but there are certain uncrossable ideological lines and stanning for white supremacy is one of those. Maybe laying it out in terms of 'disagreement is fine, championing oppression is not' would be helpful?

Argh, this thread made me google comicsgate and now I hate knowing what it is. Tell your friend I blame him for that.

pretty sure most of the people i drink with are some kind of right wing but it's not like we spend much time talking about politics except when they accuse me of being a Maoist

and i agree with them and tell them they'll be up against the wall first

Also, one possible tack to take wrt comics creators in particular is to discuss the reappropriation of Pepe the Frog. Ask him how he would feel about people hijacking his own work to express political opinions completely counter to his own. And how he feels about a professional like Van Sciver in particular doing just that. Even divorced of the political implications, it's hugely disrespectful and unprofessional.

Oh man, I just read up on comicsgate too. This shit is so unbelievably stupid.

Yep :(

I think the thing these trolling dipshits don't get is that you don't get to claim "oh, I'm actually a nice guy in person, I'm just trolling" when 100% of your public persona is racist, sexist, garbage

if you genuinely believe the problem is that it's the "wrong people" getting work or acclaim based only on their ethnicity, gender, or views... then spend your time advocating for people you think are talented and help them find an audience

latebloomer, has your friend published anything before? there genuinely are some barriers to entry if you're not established, but I don't think any of them have to do with being a white man. I knew some people who genuinely tried to break into mainstream comics a number of years ago, and none of the reasons they failed to get a strong foothold had anything to do with this comicsgate horseshit.

Not to get too off track but was a picture of a bunch of young women enjoying milkshakes really a catalyst?

women can't be employed in a coveted field, happy, and pictured together. it just drives dudes completely insane

I also didn't know about Comicsgate (or I knew, but about the one a few years ago around "hey guys maybe don't put traced porn shots on comic covers") - the article here makes the point that it doesn't even have the figleaf of ethics in games journalism, it's literally just "we fear the rise of women and brown people"

https://www.inverse.com/article/41132-comicsgate-explained-bigots-milkshake-marvel-dc-gamergate

I am not sure if laughing is the right response to idiotic claims, but I snorted when I saw this gem from one of these comicsgate turds

good lord pic.twitter.com/S2aY5Fcnwg

— BAKOON (@BAKKOOONN) May 14, 2018

I think the ongoing collapse of legitimacy of liberal institutions, increasingly anxiety producing omnipresence of (social)media, increasing forgetfulness of 20th century totalitarianisms (and hence the taboos around them) and finally ambient stress from environmental collapse all push ideological identification closer to the Cult mindset than it's ever been since the 40s. Or at the very least the melding of Cult tendencies familiar from the mid-century with political discourse seems like a natural evolution of the form. Hence, you should take your cues from this guy:

https://harpers.org/archive/2013/11/the-man-who-saves-you-from-yourself/

All nerd media needs to morph into a wall-to-wall multicultural pansexual orgy until all the chuds are stricken with massive rage aneurysms, at which time we can return to business as usual.

xpost Yes, I feel like deprogramming techniques are probably going to be an increasingly-useful tool to have in one's belt, sadly.

^^paradox of accelerationism in religious trappings (Christian Zionism)

his otherwise nice fiancee (who is not jewish, just a reactionary conservative and cokehead)

The “otherwise” has a lot of heavy lifting to do there

lol I just mean she's courteous and has a little dog, I don't really talk to her that much

"Just admit you hate jews! Just admit it!"

Was he angry when he was saying this? it sounds like it, but the earlier post made it seem calm. It's a little strange when people switch to personal attacks or accusations in person

"Just admit it!" is the point an argument has turned into "yes you are" / "no I'm not" futility, the Grasshopper is making the right move by disengaging.

I realize the purpose of it, I've been on the receiving end of it. Normally I say something like "there's probably some truth to that"

i just respond "you have no good car ideas"

The “otherwise” has a lot of heavy lifting to do there

― omar little

lol, i was gonna say, nice cokehead?

funnily enough i was just reading the wikipedia article on "positively 4th street" yesterday:

In the book Dylan: Visions, Portraits, and Back Pages, compiled by the writers of the UK's Mojo magazine, there is some speculation that "Positively 4th Street", like other Dylan compositions of the time, was influenced by Dylan's experimentation with LSD. The book alleges that Dylan's feeling was that "LSD is not for groovy people: it's for mad, hateful people who want revenge." This allegation is supported by the derisive, attacking tone of many of the songs on Bringing It All Back Home and Highway 61 Revisited, as well as the harsh and powerful textures of Dylan's electric sound.[28]

it just makes me think about richard hofstadter, "the paranoid style". i really do think that the doctrine of "pre-emptive self-defense" is a central underpinning of a lot of "brainworms". call it DARVO, call it "i know you are, but what am i?", call it "you started it". it's the fucking lex talionis, it doesn't _work_. there's that quote dubiously attributed to gandhi - "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind".

someone starts talking like that, and they don't see the world the same way i do. that's not something i can meaningfully talk to someone about when they're telling me that i need to admit that i hate jewish people.

I have a good friend, really well intentioned, something of a hippie, pretty progressive on most matters. We were talking the other day, and he was insisting on keeping lines of communication open with Trump people he disagrees with. My response to him was basically, keeping the lines of communication open about what? There are literally masked, armed goons grabbing people off the streets of Chicago, what is there to talk about? The conversation is over.

I guess for many humanists, trying to extend empathy / forgiveness to even people who are doing awful things feels right - it's inherently tied into thinking hopefully about the world and about people's potential to be good.... so making the cognitive and/or emotional transition to "these people must be stopped - they cannot be argued with - their violence is the same as that of a rabid dog" is pretty difficult.

I think a lot of people; like your friend - just feel safer hold onto that hopeful idea rather than truly confronted the need for change, and also recognising that they may be complicit by not challenging fascism directly

*confronting

I agree with that in theory, but in practice, again, there are literally masked, armed goons grabbing people off the streets. I'm not sure what empathy I can drum up for people that support that, or if/why they deserve empathy. What's there to discuss? Even my friend kind of sighed and shrugged and shook his head when I brought this up, not in frustration at my point but in the moral position he's been forced into, where his own empathy and open-mindedness/open-heartedness has hit a brick wall reality of hate and terror.

well maybe the key thing is fear; its pretty frightening and people will tend to avoid things they're frightened of, and maybe here that avoidance is done through a moral position (one that doesn't hold up to much scrutiny)

If he's just talking to random MAGA shitheads, I don't really see the problem there - sure he most likely won't be able to change anyone's mind, but he's not doing any damage either. If he's trying to engage ICE in dialogue while they're snatching people that would make me worried yes.

Surely the thing about engaging people though is not about whether or not they deserve empathy, but rather that the more people are out there supporting this stuff the worse it is, so on a practical level fewer people being hardliners for it is a good thing.

Obv this doesn't mean anyone else should feel compelled to do that work, I sure as hell wouldn't.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2lB70SENLQ

I guess for many humanists, trying to extend empathy / forgiveness to even people who are doing awful things feels right - it's inherently tied into thinking hopefully about the world and about people's potential to be good.... so making the cognitive and/or emotional transition to "these people must be stopped - they cannot be argued with - their violence is the same as that of a rabid dog" is pretty difficult.

― . (jamiesummerz)

i get that, and i mean, i do lovingkindness meditation! i was talking with some friends about this the other day, that one of my regular practices is literally meditating "may you be safe, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you live with ease", sending that towards people i like, people i hate, literally every sentient being

because the awful things they're doing literally get in the way of what i want for them. if they were to truly have those things they'd have to not do awful things.

in addition lovingkindness meditation isn't _prayer_, i'm not looking for _intercession_ or anything. i'm not out there using my wish power because i think it's magically going to change the world. i do that because doing nothing but hating these people and wanting them dead fucks me up. because whatever my _feelings_ are, whatever my _intentions_ are towards them, my action is going to be the same. i'm going to care for myself first, because i have control over my own actions, and i don't have control over anyone else's. the shitty thing about "pre-emptive self-defense" is that if someone's acting that way towards me, i do _have_ to act in self-defense. it'd be nice to not have to treat them as enemies, but when someone acts in ways that hurt me and the people i care most about, in practical terms i don't have much of a choice.

that said, no, i'm not going to treat people who are trying to hurt me as if they were rabid dogs. they're not. they're people. they're people, and they _do_ have choices. they can change. whether they do or not isn't up to me. if i treat someone like a rabid dog, i figure it makes it a lot harder for them to not _act_ like a rabid dog, right?

Rabid animals act without reason, and so do Trump voters (whether one likens them to rabid dogs or not). They are literally beyond reason, imo, operating on bad faith assumptions and fueled by lies. Afaict there is no low they won't accept.

I have a good friend, really well intentioned, something of a hippie, pretty progressive on most matters. We were talking the other day, and he was insisting on keeping lines of communication open with Trump people he disagrees with. My response to him was basically, keeping the lines of communication open about what? There are literally masked, armed goons grabbing people off the streets of Chicago, what is there to talk about? The conversation is over.

I get why you wouldn't want to do this, and no one is obligated to engage with anyone, but why is it bad if he does?

It's not bad at all, I say good for him. I just don't see the point myself, but then, I don't have any friends infected by right wing brain worms.

so ya. recently cut my oldest friend of of my life. he'd slowly been getting on my nerves over the years in that he never matured out of his teenager years. i had nothing left to talk with him about. music, movies, even baseball – he was stuck in the late 90s. he still lives with his parents, has a low paying dead end job and few other friends (just some trumpkin cousins that have been rotting his brain). i feel really shallow for saying this, but he brought nothing to the friendship, outside of occupying space. even meals was like dealing with a toddler with him.
anyways all that would be manageable except over the last couple years he's been brain worming bad. he'd been ranting online enough that i went from not respecting him much, so being disgusted by him. he came out for my birthday a few months back and went on a hissing rant about Kamala Harris. talking to him has proven to be fruitless over the years and i just don't have the energy to try and debunk all his dumb shit. so i've just stopped answering his calls or inviting him to things or interacting at all. seems to have gotten the hint. it was the right thing to do, but i still feel like shit about it.

doing nothing but hating these people and wanting them dead fucks me up

this is where i'm at too. i also think reducing MAGA to the angry, fervent acolytes you see in the protest videos significantly muddles the picture and tends to erase that so much of this is some banality of evil type shit. i think a lot of otherwise normal people are basically shrugging their shoulders and saying "well, if they weren't here illegally, this wouldn't be a problem. tough luck" and then just go back to living their normal paraphernalia-free lives without much reflection beyond that. i don't know how to fix that exactly

i mean, i think a lot of us find a strange comfort in these images of the TRUMP 2024 roadside stand, and the pickup trucks with the flags, and the notion that these people are in a cult, and that we're dealing with a kind of mass hysteria event. and that is certainly true in a lot of cases. but i also think it's worth pointing out how much of the trump agenda is enabled and sustained by forces and attitudes that are totally unremarkable. people who might even genuinely believe that they are loving, accepting, caring people. which is in some ways a more horrifying prospect, but also changes the calculus in terms of "confronting"

ime the loving, accepting, caring bit disappears pretty quick if you say anything positive about the people they consider lesser humans

i don't know how to fix that exactly

Fixing is one thing, but one might start by showing them the lawless way the law as they like/interpret it is being applied. You might say, fine, they shouldn't be here illegally. But you don't toss teargas and point guns into crowds and drag harmless people from cars, which is utterly debased and without due process. That's what the Trump administration is doing, with impunity. And if they don't have a problem with teargas and terrorism - in neighborhoods, by schools, against innocent or random people based on the color of their skin or where they are standing - then they are too far gone, at least for me, and you can't fix it. I read that good book about Q-Anon - Trust the Plan? - and the author comes to the conclusion that sadly there's nothing you can do, and the best option is often, yeah, cut them out.

From street interviews especially in cities you see these people saying things like "I like Trump because he cares about animals" and I wonder if people just see someone on tv and then project all kinds of stuff there and at the end of the day Trump is on tv and most democrats politicians are in bed

so ya. recently cut my oldest friend of of my life. he'd slowly been getting on my nerves over the years in that he never matured out of his teenager years. i had nothing left to talk with him about. music, movies, even baseball – he was stuck in the late 90s. he still lives with his parents, has a low paying dead end job and few other friends (just some trumpkin cousins that have been rotting his brain). i feel really shallow for saying this, but he brought nothing to the friendship, outside of occupying space. even meals was like dealing with a toddler with him.

this first paragraph alone would be enough for me to break it off

then again, I'm a hypocrite, because I have childhood / hs friends who fit this profile exactly but whose texts and occasional emails I still feel compelled to acknowledge for some reason, so

i mean, i think a lot of us find a strange comfort in these images of the TRUMP 2024 roadside stand, and the pickup trucks with the flags, and the notion that these people are in a cult, and that we're dealing with a kind of mass hysteria event. and that is certainly true in a lot of cases. but i also think it's worth pointing out how much of the trump agenda is enabled and sustained by forces and attitudes that are totally unremarkable. people who might even genuinely believe that they are loving, accepting, caring people. which is in some ways a more horrifying prospect, but also changes the calculus in terms of "confronting"

Yes, again I think coming from a German background made me internalise this lesson from a young age. Not every Third Reich collaborator was fully signed up to the nazi ideology or even anti semitic - bring the most abject ideas into the mainstream and most people will nod along, if the historical circumstances are right.

for me, the aggravating thing is when they see Trump as an everyman, one of them. Dude has never even hung a framed picture on the wall. But he's against what they're against... the intellectual, educated, smug libs with their fancy lofts and americanos in the big blue city. That contrarian position can let them overlook some of his most vile actions

I grew up in cities and inner ring suburbs, and now live in one of the bluest congressional districts in the US, but I spend an inordinate amount of time outside the city, tromping through the woods, etc. One of the things that I often want to say to the contrarian position that you mention is, “I actually really like it out here, and think this town is great, but I can’t find a job or a way to live out here. There are a lot of people like me!” And it’s true!! So many people I know would live in small towns or cities if there were jobs available— I dream about living out near Lancaster, for example.

There are no jobs near me. If there was no such thing as remote work, I would be fucked. (If there was no such thing as remote work, I would not have been able to leave NJ.)

I would LOVE to have a rural place but I also recognize - and I grew up very rural - is that you need a truck, and you'll be spending a lot of time in that truck

I honestly think the world is a better place that I live in a walkable city, with markets nearby, public transit etc... rather than living at the end of a 16 mile gravel road, off some rural highway. I have some friends in the Santa Cruz Mountains and even that is a serious stretch, they're always ferrying the kids around and there's just unfortunately a shitload of driving. Maybe we'll have hydrogen-powered gyrocopters soon, but I'm not holding my breath

I have also lived rurally, fwiw— off grid, 15 miles from the nearest town of McCloud, CA— and it was blissful, we just didn’t have jobs that were good enough to make it work.

Ideally a small city surrounded by country (and some boulder fields, natch) would be a welcome change. I like Philly but I am tired of it at the same time.

From street interviews especially in cities you see these people saying things like "I like Trump because he cares about animals" and I wonder if people just see someone on tv and then project all kinds of stuff there and at the end of the day Trump is on tv and most democrats politicians are in bed

I think politics has been fanfiction and “head canon” for many people for a long time. “Obama is a radical Black Panther Muslim!” “Trump cares about people like me!” “Kamala is too radical!”

it's funny the thread went direction because dude i cut off, was terrified of cities. he found out i was heading to chicago a couple years ago and he flipped out thinking i was going to get shot. like i was walking into a war zone with a target painted on my back. even in toronto he'd just be scarred of random streets – we left a restaurant and wanted to hit up another place that was walking distance and he refused to go down the street we were talking. the thing was it was a *nice* street. busy with some very nice restos and bars, some new condos etc. it was baffling. he walked back to his car and drove it down a side street to meet up at our destination.

xpost

Ideally a small city surrounded by country

Oakland is pretty good for this, we have some giant forested parks just to the east.. I've even taken a city bus up to my secret camping spot, inhabited by yowling coyotes, deer, racoon and skunks

that said, there's often a sea of Subarus in the parking lot when you go on the weekends, you're never really out there on your own unless you head out on tuesday mornings or something

was terrified of cities

At one job I worked we moved from a suburban city to a larger office in downtown of the big city. Virtually everyone working there lived out in the suburbs so, in a meeting about the move, the boss did a lot of reassuring about how it wasn't going to be so bad there with regard to crime or anything like that. That big city? ... Salt Lake City.

SLCrips

How can you live in Toronto and be terrified of cities? Isnt it as big as like, where I live?

yes but a handful of people speak french

dude lives in the suburbs. i moved as soon as possible, he stayed as put as any human being on the planet has ever stayed.
Toronto is the 4th largest city (in population) in North America and one of the safest cities in NA (more so than many other Canadian cities).
my dude sees a street of houses where none of them look the same and starts hyperventilating, i swear to god.

and apparently french is the #10 most common language dans le city!!

i'm surprised Korean is so far down actually.

_Ideally a small city surrounded by country_

Oakland is pretty good for this, we have some giant forested parks just to the east.. I've even taken a city bus up to my secret camping spot, inhabited by yowling coyotes, deer, racoon and skunks

that said, there's often a sea of Subarus in the parking lot when you go on the weekends, you're never really out there on your own unless you head out on tuesday mornings or something

Oakland is not affordable, though. I could sell my place in Philly and buy a place in Lancaster. I would have to sell 4-5 of my places in Philly to approach a burnt up as-is shell in Richmond.

tbf SLC has a serious homeless problem. I mean it's not like they're hurting anyone but it's pretty wild to see a full-on tent city with unhinged people wheeling old shopping carts full of old rags right in the central, touristy part of town.

Saw this FB post from a former friend (lost to time and distance, not any great rupture) and sometime coworker who is convinced Zohran Mamdani is an anti-Semitic radical who's going to destroy NYC.

I hope your free buses and government supermarkets make you happy (if you ever actually get them). I’ll just be over here with all the reasonable Jews being terrified.

Another ilxor is pushing back (and had to assert his own Jewishness to even get a hearing) but I am staying out of it.

its not a bad band name that

always astounded by the people americans who become enraged in the presence of people speaking non-english

why would you care?

(tbf those ppl *are* totally making fun of you, but only because you're a weird bigot)

so ya. recently cut my oldest friend of of my life. he'd slowly been getting on my nerves over the years in that he never matured out of his teenager years. i had nothing left to talk with him about. music, movies, even baseball – he was stuck in the late 90s. he still lives with his parents, has a low paying dead end job and few other friends (just some trumpkin cousins that have been rotting his brain). i feel really shallow for saying this, but he brought nothing to the friendship, outside of occupying space. even meals was like dealing with a toddler with him.

― FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall)

it's not shallow to dump a friend for bringing nothing to the friendship. that was a big problem for me for sure, cutting people off on the grounds that i wasn't getting anything out of our friendship. it's normal and ok, though! i've stopped talking to people i liked and admired and thought were pretty cool just because, like, i wasn't getting anything out of talking to them.

my feeling about "brainworms" is that... all my life i was taught, basically, "facts good, emotions bad", and what i see people doing, _particularly_ cis white men, is disguising their emotions as facts.

my take on facts and feelings is really influenced by DBT, which in turn is supported pretty well by cognitive science. DBT says that emotions aren't right or wrong, they just _are_. they're not bad, it's not bad to have emotions - everybody has them. they're just not facts. and what happens is that when people are feeling strong emotions, we literally _can't think rationally_. so there's no point in rational discourse with someone who's in a place where they're either unwilling or unable to engage rationally. if i'm gonna deal with them it has to be in a way that acknowledges and accepts their emotions, not judging or shaming them for it, but also not saying that their feelings are factually true or right.

it's hard because i talk to people and sometimes they get upset when i talk about their emotions, they feel like i'm not respecting them intellectually. it's not a matter of disrespect - it's just that i don't see a point in engaging with them intellectually until we're on the same page.

it's also not my _responsibility_ to change anyone's mind. i gotta live with the consequences of how other people talk and act towards me, but i also gotta recognize that i don't have control over them. they are responsible for their own words and actions, just like i'm responsible for mine. i got a cousin, says he's a zionist, i mean, he's an intelligent guy. at the same time if he's committed enough to israel to say that he's a "zionist", talking to him isn't going to change his mind - it's just gonna get me upset. he's an OK guy, but supporting genocide, which he does, is fundamentally in violation of my values. i limit the time i spend around him and i deal with him on a more superficial level. it's not practical for me to cut him off, so i don't, but i do limit my interactions with him.

a lot of what frustrates me is this sense of learned helplessness. it's easy to make fun of "someone is WRONG on the Internet" but this shit does affect our lives on a practical level. all i can do is value and care for myself and the people who are most important to me. i was raised as a liberal and taught that i should care about "everyone", and, well, it's true in the sense that i want them to be safe, happy, healthy, i want to live with ease, i have those basic well-wishes towards everyone. in practice, though, i do have to make choices, hard choices. if i can't change their mind, well, i'm not going to protect them from the consequences of their actions. the power i have is that i can choose how to react to their words and actions. it's not much, but it's not nothing!

great post. it's nice to see all that articulated so well.