people who derail perfectly civilized discussions by saying, "well everyone has their own opinion": Classic or I have lost all respect for you DUD

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i have wasted so many precious moments of my life listening to this monologue, and its always scripted in the exact same way.

(the following conversation is so highly condensed that you should pity and fear me)

Gabe: so what you are suggesting is that modern american kids have actually been physically shrinking, on average, in the past half a century?

some dude: Yah Dude, if you look at highschool yearbooks in like 5 year intervals starting when our dads were in highschool- its totally obvious- guys back then actually looked like men. somethings going on. like, its part of this decay thats happening EVERYWHERE. dude, were DEVOLVING.

Gabe: *presents measured, cogent argument against dude's hypothesis*

Dude: no man, but if you look at evolution, like were actually evolving back to like neanderthal times. think of how few of the guys you knew in highschool could actually grow facial hair. like half the guys in my dads yearbook had full beards. we're decaying.

Gabe: *calmly suggests that the likelihood of our species's undergoing a drastic genetic transformation in the space of a few years is low, and, granting that his knowledge of the evolutionary process is really limited, respectfully asks dude to venture a guess as to why this might be happening*

Dude: decaaay.....

Gabe: buh...buh...but...

Dude's roommate Liz: dude's right, society is totally falling apart. culture, etc. etc.

Dude: decaaaay.......evoloootion...

Gabe: wait...no...but..uh...

Liz: culture...decaaay...general gothic horribleness...

Dude: evolootion....no beards....shrinking....

Gabe: no...but...uh...see...

(key elements of the SCRIPT will be enclosed in a pair of tildes (~))

LizBOT: ~One point that i really want to make, that i think is really relevant to this specific topic, is that i think that everyone has their own opinion.~

dudeBOT: yeah, I mean no one can really change my ideas, i mean, no one can really know what i think.

LizBOT: uh huh, i mean, it reminds me of how sad and tortured i am, and how whenever my mom would try to understand i would totally lose it, because how DARE SHE. No one can understand my suffering.

DudeBOT: yeah, definitely, ~everyone just has their own opinion, and its really important to respect other people’s opinions, I mean, I respect your opinion and you respect mine.

LizBOT: yeah we all respect each other’s opinions.

DudeBOT: ~and no one is right or wrong, we just have different opinions~

LizBOT: good point DudeBOT, I mean, no one knows how I really feel .

DudeBOT: yeah LizBOT, I totally know what you’re saying. ~I mean everyone has the right to disagree~

…

ok so I’m definitely being a little mean-spirited and superior in my paraphrasing of the above conversation. And I could have chosen a way better example than an excruciating 9am talk with two completely hollowed-out meth-addicts.
But what’s really frustrating is that so often this thing shows up and train-wrecks really interesting debates, with otherwise not-highly-strangleable people.
I think its partly a glitch of my particular microgeneration. We were 12 or so when the huge early 90’s boom of Peer Mediation happened, and this stuff was drilled into our soft self esteeming brains without mercy, for hours on end during many a supposed class discussion about politics or psychology or art or whatver.

…..

Gabe: look, shouldn’t ANY debate, formal or not, begin on the premise that we respect one another’s right to have an opinion? i.e. To opine? why must the arrival of any contention over fact, if its not literally denying your right to independent thought, be followed by this totally pointless, endless defense of subjectivity?! This is a debate, we’re supposed to disagree, that’s the point!! Why ever open your mouth at all, ever, at all, at all, ever, if you see any "difference of opinion" as another example of the vast, bottomless, unknowable abyss that surrounds and separates us from each other and from each other’s perspective. No I don’t know what it FEELS like to BE you. But were not all lying struggling in a fucking pool of cottonballs. So don’t sit there and babble endlessly about skull shrinkage or what the fuck ever and not expect to have to defend yourself. Yes dude, I said defend. AUUUURRRRGGHHHH. Your supposed to be trying to convince me. And even if your theory turns out to be completely shit, which I assure you it will, doesn’t mean that I hate you. Oh wait. I do. Oops.

Liz: I’m going to go over here now and rearrange and disinfect my magazines.

Dude: I’m really dumb.

…

ok so I would never actually brutalize people like this. but u have no idea how good it feels to pretend. I’ve just released a billowing cloud of latent, cruel megalomania into my bedroom. So.

how annoying is this to you? ? ?

― gabriel (gabe), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:22 (twenty-three years ago)

I get what you're saying. But if you're thick as shit and have the misfortune to find yourself stuck in an argument with someone cleverer than you then it has to be CLASSIC. It's like a nuclear bomb, in that sense.

― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:27 (twenty-three years ago)

very annoying.
this is really the result of the language of pop psychology, cultural relativism (related to multiculturalism), emotionalism, etc. seeping into the individual realm. all of the above is meant to stroke the ego. sure, multiculturalism has its very positive sides, but it also seeks to make people feel special simply for having been born. I am glad that hippies in the 60s protested against the war and for civil rights, but they also introduced this language of self-satisfied blech. we must make value judgements. certain things are better than others. objectively.
people who hide behind opinion feel that they have no responsibility to other human beings at all.

gosh i am bitching incoherently, but this is the thing that most angers me in all of the world.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:37 (twenty-three years ago)

well if American kids are shrinking, maybe it's because of the increased proportions of non-European immigrants.

― felicity (felicity), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:43 (twenty-three years ago)

I totally agree. Especially when I'm this close to "elightening" the opponent. Maybe they sense this or not, and they backdown with a tie saying "We just disagree." I always say or think "That's the wimps way out. There IS a right answer, but you are running from it."

― A Nairn (moretap), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:44 (twenty-three years ago)

glad we agree!

― felicity (felicity), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:44 (twenty-three years ago)

What if you find yourself using the line rather than your opponent? And why did you use it?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:45 (twenty-three years ago)

I totally agree the "agree to disagree" line can be a total cop-out. I think I've been guilty of that on too many occasions - particularly around relatives that argue about politics and religion and never seem to get anywhere or around my parents before they - thankfully - got divorced. Though I guess in those cases I was trying to act more as a peacemaker than giving up my own cause.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:48 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm taller than my parents, who are taller than theirs... I've just gotta pay close attention to the huge ass heels you ladies wear these days when picking a breeding partner har har.

No really, I just smash people who "agree to disagree"... with my towering intellect... and fists.

The "all opinions are right, all viewpoints are good" crowd will destroy civilization if given the chance. Fact-check they asses, and don't be afraid to shun.

― Stuart, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:54 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree with the above, but what about that point when you realize the person you're arguing with is an ignorant twunt and you find yourself being utterly bored trying to reason with him? That's usually when I say "Uh huh, enjoy your dumb opinion, I'm gonna go make a sandwich."

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:55 (twenty-three years ago)

but stupid people vote.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:57 (twenty-three years ago)

You're right. A monarchy is the only answer.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 21:59 (twenty-three years ago)

i like left-wing totalitarianism. as my first act as dictator, all McMansions will be destroyed. and amtrak will run on time.

― Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:02 (twenty-three years ago)

interweb equivalent: "[crazed flaming] and I'm outta here, never to return!"

― ch. (synkro), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Although I think it's a dud argument (despite my awarding it classic above) and a cop-out, it probably is used more by the less passionate side in a debate. Sometimes the less passionate side, or the less interested side, is simply unprepared to think about a given issue, i.e. they are roughly stupid. Other times the less interested side is confronted by a fanatic. I would use it against some Creationist rather than get involved in the futility of presenting them with evidence.

So really it's both a dud and a compromised classic.

― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:06 (twenty-three years ago)

mark s: no, david, you're not listening.
david: "well, everyone has their own opinion - I now have yours".

― david h (david h), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:10 (twenty-three years ago)

hahahahahaha

it depends on the topic, surely. some are way more emotionally charged, and likely to have 'sides' based on peoples own experiences rather than be arguable by logical means.
however, if you do state an opinion it is usually wise to have some kind of defence of it when questioned, other than " oh yeah well its just how I think and i cant help it if You dont get it man "

― donna (donna), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 23:18 (twenty-three years ago)

Even worse is "you have no respect for other peoples opinions do you".

No, I do, it's just you have nothing remotely intelligent or logical to back yours up. (Christ knows we've all been in that boat)

― Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 23:23 (twenty-three years ago)

fwiw i read 'somewhere' that generations are actually being born taller than before ie: past centuries, mainly due to improved nutrition / health in general. dont ask me where i read this because i cant remember so i cant defend it hahahahaha.

― donna (donna), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 23:28 (twenty-three years ago)

The problem is that sometimes people can't tell the difference between a debate and a fight. It's dud in a debate, classic in a fight.

A debate is dispassionate and logical and starts on the premise of respect for opinions and goes on to try to find a right answer. That's why "everyone has their own opinion" is totally dud; "I don't know an answer to that" or "we've already covered this argument and you're repeating yourself" actually address the difficulties better.

A fight is two people saying, "I'm right, LISTEN to me you moron, no I'm not listening to you because I'M RIGHT if you'd just admit it already!" Fights get personal and angry and that's the point where someone who just wants to have a quiet logical debate backs off and says "well, everyone has their own opinion, man."

― Maria (Maria), Thursday, 7 November 2002 01:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Debates don't have to be dispassionate. Many great debates are highly emotionally charged, and a lot of fun. (as long as people don't take things too far -> into fight territory)

I personally think that you have no right to an opinion if you can't back it up in a debate. (unless you have some sort of impediment (other than sheer stupidity) that prevents you from doing so.) I mean, who the fuck do you think you are if you can say and think a whole lot of crap that you're completely unable to justify?!

― Andrew (enneff), Thursday, 7 November 2002 01:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Interesting, Maria, that you make the distinction. I find that most people in "debates" aren't looking for truth, but rather personal satisfaction. That is, they want to be right. I don't think it's as much a matter of "debate vs. fight" as "debate vs. discussion." Generally, discussions don't involve contests over who is right and who is wrong. Debates, in all their uselessness, are just that -- people arguing over who is right and who is wrong. The odds are both parties will walk away with no more truth than they entered with, but likely also with a nice self-granted ego boost and an aura of pomp.

People who say "well everyone has their own opinion" are missing the point. They are concerned only with maintaining their validation, with "winning" the debate. The fact that a debate may be considered won or lost is in itself the debate's greatest flaw. Everybody DOES have their own opinions, but those usually aren't the topics at hand.

The reason, Maria, that we so often encounter that phrase in our lives is because a certain mindset, which tends to be the norm amongst excessive thinkers, is intent upon winning. It is thus blinded to its own pursuit, assuming that only the other party in the debate is trying to win, when, in actuality, it is usually that both parties are equally moronic and equally responsible.

In short, we hear that phrase because most people can't admit that somebdoy else thought of something valid before them. Cleverness is now equated to stubbornness.

― dingo, Thursday, 7 November 2002 01:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Maria, Andrew, & dingo are OTM.

― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 7 November 2002 02:01 (twenty-three years ago)

"I mean, who the fuck do you think you are if you can say and think a whole lot of crap that you're completely unable to justify?! "

A person whose thoughts are clearer than his words, whose ideas are potentially just as valid as anybody else's are capable of being. I think this ties into my previous point: people just want to win arguments, and if dismissing somebody else's ideas due to their presentation is enough to do it, they will do it.

― dingo, Thursday, 7 November 2002 02:15 (twenty-three years ago)

dingo has a point. I partially retract my statement.

How many times have you been in an argument that has gone on for so long that you're no longer arguing about anything meaningful? Everything becomes a matter of technicality; poking holes in your opponents semantics and reasoning, without deriving any meaning from your conclusions.

― Andrew (enneff), Thursday, 7 November 2002 03:12 (twenty-three years ago)

When you've gone too far into minutiae the debate drifts off and dies, like when you realize that you've spent the last ten minutes talking about whether King Lear ever actually existed outside of your own head. Usually at that point someone makes a dirty joke and the conversation is saved.

The three possible meanings of the "own opinion" line:
1) We need to stop arguing because I love you and don't want to fight, also we need to have sex before I fall asleep.
2) I am an idiot. So much of one, in fact, that it took me this long to realize I had nothing to say.
3) I am an idiot. An idiot for thinking that you could ever understand what I am talking about, you boxy-headed twunt.

― Dave M. (rotten03), Thursday, 7 November 2002 06:34 (twenty-three years ago)

never argue with 'dudes'

― ron (ron), Thursday, 7 November 2002 06:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Most people argue just to get attention, they're not even in the vicinity of deserving to be taken seriously. So the best thing to do is just attack a personal weak spot of theirs and leave it until they recover from the trauma. And then just keep hammering that nerve if they're stupid enough to try and argue with them again.

― dave q, Thursday, 7 November 2002 09:32 (twenty-three years ago)

'argue with YOU again', I meant. Aarrgghh. Completely makes a mockery of the point I was going to make ("inarticulate people actually shouldn't be allowed to speak at all"), cuz here I am not even distinguishing pronouns correctly

― dave q, Thursday, 7 November 2002 09:34 (twenty-three years ago)

It's a colloquial way of saying 'let's shelve this for now and talk about this instead'. It's annoying when it happens and you're in full flow but that doesn't make it a dud. It also means 'look, i understand what you're saying but you're becoming a bore'.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 7 November 2002 09:40 (twenty-three years ago)

another way of saying it is that "i will write things here which if i said them to the person's face in a pub or in the street would result in my spending six months in casualty"?

― Emmanuel Goldstein, Thursday, 7 November 2002 09:44 (twenty-three years ago)

It's even worse if there are two of you having some kind of discussion/mild argument and it's a third party who says it. Some people just seem allergic to debate, there's nothing more annoying than someone jumping the gun when you and a friend aren't even really annoyed or arguing and saying "oh come on, stop fighting, everyone has an opinion". Does anyone else know people like this? It really really bugs me. They might as well tell you to shut up.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 7 November 2002 09:47 (twenty-three years ago)

please rename to "Classic or British".

― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 7 November 2002 10:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, everyone has their own opinion.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 7 November 2002 10:04 (twenty-three years ago)

that's just your opinion.

― Denise Lambert, Thursday, 7 November 2002 10:20 (twenty-three years ago)

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