Denise Lambert in person

or: how does an anti-consensus viewpoint work in a social setting?

well gareth the problem is that "denise" has been barred from posting, because unfortunately the moderator is a mick mccarthy-like humourless social inadequate who can't bear having the truth told to him. the energy he uses up in doing this would be better spent sorting out his own life.

i do not exclude myself from the latter proviso.

so taken to its logical extension, all we are ever going to get on ile if this moderator has his way are lots of "pointless posts" within a very narrow circle which will remain unread by anyone outside that circle. really, therefore, the whole thing should become "password-only" to prevent interesting people from contributing.

doomie, incidentally, is pretty much what i expected him to be from his posts.

Hein?

Obv I have to go and look at that thread.

When I worked for Railtrack (urgh, even typing it gives me shivers) I was the new girl in a long established clique. They knew what they thought about anything and everything (I swear they had all just escaped from a 1950’s How to Keep Your Man public service broadcast) and if you didn’t agree then you were a freak. The blokes avoided non work conversations with them at all costs coz they were scary women. Once I knew I was leaving (ok ok so I’m a wuss) I spent many a cheerful day voicing non-clique opinions (example – I said I’d have no problem with my bloke having porn in the house and I swear you’d think I’d just confessed to skinning and eating small children!) and watching the fallout. The blokes loved it coz I was saying all the stuff they’d have been labelled sexist for. It was fun, and I know they probably still talk about that strange depraved girl that once worked with them.

i think that 'denise'-style behaviour is rude. most people are well aware that social interaction is often quite shallow, to think that you are enlightening them by pointing it out is arrogant.

yes but i have things to be arrogant about, so i don't consider it to be a negative.

Well, I'm still none the wiser.

What made Denise Lambert a poor-quality devil's advocate/troll was her ability (cos her creator knows most of us) to switch to hurtful ad hominem attacks on people's real-life looks/personalities. That doesn't shake anything up, it's just designed to humiliate. Marcello's high-minded defence of being rude is alright, even great in theory but in this case it's just a regular playing the pomposity card when other people don't like his grandstanding.

(I assume that the moderator being talked about is Graham not me or Mark or Andrew, for any neutrals reading.)

marcello, do you think that arrogance is an admirable charater trait?

the pointless posts in narrow circle, could very much apply to life in general, i do wonder why people don't do things like what you and doom patrol do in real life. it seems an interesting dichotomy to me.

also, why say "the moderator is a mick mccarthy-like humourless social inadequate". why not say "tom is a fucking prick", the first seems fence-sitting and "anti-truth"

i am curious about this 'truth' thing though, i didnt really understand that i have to admit. i didnt understand why you were so angry with people who disagreed, or had had a different experience from the 'truth'. theres something of a 'greater good' thing going on perhaps, this is why denise reminds me of Roy Keane, or a schoolmaster, someone who is better than the other people.

i'm very interested to see if anyone has told the 'truth' to their friends in this way. and if not, why not? i mean, i dont really see things this way, so i havent done it online or in person, but what of people who have done it online (or felt tempted to?)

prevent interesting people from contributing.

marcello, are you interesting?

I set up a quick thing so that Marcello could only post as Marcello, because I wanted to talk about my wedding, for one thing, and not have to endure stupid personal attacks.

I had no idea post were being deleted on that thread, hence my 'Huh?' in response to that seemingly out of the blue rant from Marcello.

I don't know what the posts were, so I have no idea whether I think Graham was justified in removing them.

There, that was interesting, wasn't it?

The reason truth-telling doesn't happen in circles of close friends is that most people are aware of their own faults and don't need them constantly pointed out. Also, people you become friends with are generally people whose faults are, in your opinion, minor.

OK, in the light of the above it seems as if Graham as gone a bit nuts (though as I say, I don't know what Marcello was saying about him under this 'Denise' thing if things have been deleted).

OH GOD, I AM CONCERNING MYSELF WITH INTERNET MENTALISM. GET ME OUT OF HERE.

a lot of the problem with a project like "denise" is that since marcello doesn't have any great gift for imagining the insides of other people's heads — or particularly seem to understand why it might be a useful thing to do — he doesn't actually "do" alternate opinions very well, at least at length

so for example, tho denise's actual point of view was "different" in an abstract sense, it was never defended or explored or adapted in the course of engagement with the world — as it would have been if it was what someone present truly felt

i'm tempted to compare the situation with that of gale — who really did seem to come from another world, compared to ile — whose main hostile opponent as i recall was marcello (if gale was someone else's invention then i take my hat off to them; if gale was marcello then i wish he'd go and back do her more cz she was i. genuinely brilliant and ii. useful and insightful as a contrast to the ile massive)

will denise ever come out to a FAP type thing? not being facetious but i would like to see you do this in person, because everyone has seen it online for ages now, and many other times with other trolls (dont mean this as insult, because this was intention) but i doubt any of us would have actually seen anything like it in public

also, do you think denise was successful? and how would you define successful in these terms?

and the personal abuse thing is quite interesting, are the targets
posters you dislike or does that not come into it? this is because some of the abuse is quite tame, and others is more the stuff you get off blokes on the nightbus, and some dont get any abuse at all (i dont think youve ever had a go at me, except i think maybe sub-socialist liberal or something, but thats a bit daily express and i didnt think you were really trying with that).

N. because its fascinating, admit it!

I think that people take turns being anti-'the consensus' depending on what's being discussed, as any fule kno. To reflexively set up self as Captain Anti-Consensus no matter what the subject under discussion may be is just as hidebound as the complacency you're trying to shatter.

As to the whole 'alias' thing, most of that dissipates once people meet, because there is perspective (Doomie's nice, for example). I like when Marcello does it in jest (and miss Chingford Tor Ascender) but when he hides behind an alias to pick on people in a very specific way I just think 'quick, get the nets! Sybil's on the run!' and lose interest in posting on the thread.

arrogance is tolerable and sometimes justifiable, provided you have something to be arrogant about.

if i WEREN'T interesting, gareth, then why are you still here?

(PBUH)

what are you arrogant about Marcello?

as for graham, just calm down. if you are SERIOUS about marrying melissa then you'll need to present yourself a lot better to her than you do to us when you come to FAP meet-ups.

i didnt say you werent interesting marcello. i asked you if you were interesting. also were talking about denise, not marcello (and there is a separation presumably, otherwise why the false name)

suzy, interesting in posting wanes, but there is a car crash quality surely?

Chingford Tor Ascender was a bit rub. It was like something latter-day Keith Waterhouse would come up with. There was one that Marcello did for a bit that I liked. I can't remember what it was.

Oh grow up.

Nothing was deleted, it was just barred from being posted. It wasn't just selfish, other people were complaining and it was getting a bit out of hand I thought. I'll remove it if that's what people want.

ms you know damn well i wasn't gale. ask DG - he'll tell you she was genuine.

what i try to do is to OPEN UP people's heads (metaphorically) so that I CAN see inside them. start from the opposite end; you will eventually meet up in the middle and the world is but a distorted mirror, but don't forget the flecks.

I don't think you should bar people from posting under alternaive names if that's what they want, Graham.

It can be annoying when people do it for certain reasons, but I think you have to leave that up to them.

Marcello, read MS's post again - it's pretty obvious he doesn't think you were Gale.

graham can't you think of anything more original than "grow up"? why don't you start with yourself. start talking to people in volumes of greater than 0.00000005 dB for a start. respond to other people. connect with other people. this board is not a substitute for what you are unable to achieve in life.

i do not exclude myself from the latter proviso.

seriously though, if you're going to have hissy fits every time someone touches one of your nerves then you're going to have an isolated and lonely life.

i do not exclude myself from that proviso either.

thank goodness.

arrogance is tolerable and sometimes justifiable, provided you have something to be arrogant about.

an arrogant is justified in arrogance in their own estimation. their own estimation of themselves=the root of arrogance. if you say you're arrogant then you can't say it's reasonable.

That wasn't a hissy fit. You called me quiet. Big woo.

many people have things to be arrogant about, but i prefer the ones who aren't. i'm leaving the mentalism on this thread now.

Gale was/is genuine as far as anyone knows. Her name crops up on a couple of Chris De Burgh messageboards too and her IP didnt match anyone else's.

I don't think people posting under alternative names should be banned either. On the other hand who exactly has been prevented from posting in this case?

yes you can if you have skills, abilities and achievements about which you are fully entitled to be arrogant. the distinction is one of perspective, to which reason is necessarily subservient. as the only perspective we know is our own, thus do we determine our own concept of "reason."

theres still some of my questions unanswered upthread marcello. i mean, i can understand if you don't want to answer them, but i am genuinely interested in the answer, i don't want to offend anyone though, so i'll leave it if that is what is preferred

graham- I think it would be OK if denise were allowed to carry on. his personal attacks aren't that big a deal (maybe that's because i have met marcello).

let the 'denise' alias run out of steam.

Why is a grown man picking on the frailties of an unhappy, shy 20 year old boy?

one of your questions is semantic in nature and has already been answered. the answer to the other main question which you asked is self-evidently determinable, thematically, from the "late bloomer" and "relationship" threads. think about why i posted to them as "denise" and consider the issues to which "she" returned again and again. evaluate how the themes would make a "denise in person" scenario either unavoidable or completely impossible.

and the basis of your arrogance Marcello?

should we be humble about the things we are lousy at?

and nick, leave simon cowell out of this.

no, mark, you're not getting me that way.

Marcello quit this shit about opening up people's heads, all you've done is sound like the fucking cranky 14 year old in school telling everyone god doesn't exist or something, I mean seriously, do you even believe your own hype here? Snap out of it.

Marcello - I just don't see the point in being deliberately hurtful to other people. Picking on personal faults doesn't open up debate, it moves conversation away from rational debate and into the realms of petty name calling.

denise looks like ken stott.

And Nick's point is totally on the money. There are times when you've turned to ILx for support or com,fort and it's been given to you. Don't you dare attack Graham for having the same needs.

arrogance is never justified - it's a totally unpleasant trait. it infringes on other people. pride is ok.

1. why say "the moderator is a mick mccarthy-like humourless social inadequate". why not say "tom is a fucking prick", the first seems fence-sitting and "anti-truth"

2. marcello, are you interesting?

3. will denise ever come out to a FAP type thing?

4. do you think denise was successful?

5. and how would you define successful in these terms?

6. are the targets posters you dislike or does that not come into it?

7. why you were so angry with people who disagreed, or had had a different experience from the 'truth'

and for everyone else:

if you dislike trolls in general, and i'm presuming you do, why do you/we respond to them? i wonder myself, there is fascination at such a different mindset but given that its a competition with rules you cannot define, and in which you cannot win, why do you respond?

Ironically my main objection (as put in the pub last night) to the Denise Lambert persona was that it would put random googlers *off* sticking around on ILX if all they saw was posters sniping absurdly at one another. I'm all in favour of a cosy message board in which people like one another and arguments and positions shift gradually, I'm just not in favour of banning people to make it that way.

Mark S' old theory on Marcello is I think a wise and correct one - he gets frustrated with himself and/or the boards, needs to take a break, doesn't have the willpower to do it, so antagonises people until he gets the excuse he needs to piss off for a while. (Other posters have done this too).

and the basis of your arrogance Marcello? A: Educated at University of Oxford.

and what have you got to be so arrogant about marcello?

julio what the fuck are you talking about?

by that i mean that i have a "relationship" with marcello that is uh rocky at best that stretches far back from before you started posting to ile and goes off board, through all sorts of various stages and has ended up here. i considered him my "friend" at one point, but now he can fuck right off, frankly. like most everyone else, i think ile is unhealthy for him at this point, and i think any further contact with him is unhealthy for BOTH of us. (for reasons that, unlike him, i have no interest in divulging on board, as anything he's ever related to me i prefer to keep private and non-hostile.)

but, if someone is bad mouthing me anonymously either way (either as a diff'rent "persona" or by indicting me on-board but refusing to just come out and use my name, as above), well i'll go tit for tat with anyone talking this shit, that shit.

I'm with Donna. Attack the kittens!

(please no mangled kitty pics like that dead rabbit on the other thread. please.)

I love the idea of an ILE party line. I suppose it would center around some sort of love of The Powerpuff Girls and Missy Elliot.

Ha ha yes is there an ILE mafia too? I can shorely legitimately bitch about it if so.

Jess I'm still stuck on the idea that we're creaming our pants over you - surely that is the oddest part of Marcello's veiled attack?

Aw c'mon, it's all the rage!

That was Jess he was talking about? *befuddled*

i'd love to be a dipsomaniac adulterer!

tim, i am a sex machine. face facts.

internet = recreational sociopath's "element"

and it wouldnt be marcello if he didn't choose "dipsomaniac" over alcoholic.

for anyone who is wondering...no, of course my evening dinner conversation didn't center around this thread, dipsomaniac = having an uncontrollable craving for alcoholic liquors, from the Greek, dipsa, thirst

One day on - let's hope this shit calms down. My summary :

1) Marcello was unacceptably rude to some people who didn't ask for it and didn't deserve it.

2) Everyone, including me piled in and pointed out that this was wrong. Some people including me, stoked the fire somewhat.

3) Doom-e joined in to add weight to the theory that the bland ILX *needs* more of this and that somehow a higher functioning elite including him and Marcello, are doing this for our own good and that most of the time ILX is beneath them. I agree that we can do with more thought provoking debate and less fluffy kitens, BUT either cut out personal attacks or piss off somewhere else please.

4)We're not all fuck-ups. Marcello is not a fuck up, nor are any of the numerous ILX-ers that I've met in person. We're all a little hard on ourselves and each other, but no fuck-ups, I have never met doom-e, but I doubt he's one either.

5)Some apologies on-board or off-board would help.

6) I want a fiery, controversial ILX with Marcello, doom-e, mark s, Suzy, Momus, gareth, Tom etc all slugging it with allcomers. A little showboating and arrogance is relatively harmless too. But when you make personal attacks on people that's not OK.

7) I like Marcello and consider him a friend. Those of you who also consider him a friend here pls don't abandon him.

Enjoy Friday.

but what about the WEDDING!?

I'm creaming my jeans over Electric Sound of Jim right now - does that make him a dipsomaniac adulterer?

It's so sweet that after about a billion posts Doomie thinks he's still not part of our cosy ILX system.

I don't think ILE is bland. Also, there's not any noticable party-line.

Not even about the kittens.

toraneko is right! There is no party line, I don't particualrly like Missy for a start, and kittens are cool. I'm not really into slugging it out with all-comers, I mean, that's all good, but that's not me.

ILE is the opposite of bland. Why the hell would you come back if it were bland?

Urrrrggg.. the strange little people who live in my computer are angry...

Must switch off and wipe their memory.

I'm not angry.

you were: he wiped you memory.

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal.

I'm afraid.

I'm afraid, Zanny.

Zanny, my mind is going. I can feel it. I can feel it.

My mind is going. There is no question about it.

I can feel it. I can feel it. I can feel it. I'm afraid.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. I am a HAL 9000 computer. I became operational at the H.A.L. plant in Urbana, Illinois on the 12th of January 1992.

My instructor was Mr. Langley, and he taught me to sing a song. If you'd like to hear it I can sing it for you.

RJG: what did I do when I was angry? Was it like Incredible Hulk style?

"we chatted briefly through email before i had seen this thread and he thought, 'i wonder if i don't need ile anymore' and i replied 'you never needed it'."

And then they lez up.

Lordy, the things that happen overnight. I like the way that doom-e said 'I'm going! I'm going' about a meeelion times before actually sodding off. Also calling someone a jerk. AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAARGH!

"We're all individuals."

"I'm not!"

jel: I'm too embarrassed to say. : /

awwwww. i so love that picture. if kits could talk, he could say "bling bling" and still be cute.

oh dear, not again :(

''Lordy, the things that happen overnight. I like the way that doom-e said 'I'm going! I'm going' about a meeelion times before actually sodding off. Also calling someone a jerk. AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAARGH!''

well it is really funny because he does it ALL THE TIME. he is definetely 'one of us'.

OK jess: i have only been on ILE since what, june (on ILM for much longer).

"tim, i am a sex machine. face facts."

Yeah, but I'm a sex cyborg, you said so yourself. Beat that, dunny.

Why do ILX fights always have to end in sex

He flamed me (and it felt like a kiss)

"It's funny how a few words turn into sex!"

See, Like I Love You really does explain all of life's little conundrums.

But I still feel sad and achey and it's all hot and it hurts and stuff.

Kittenz and The Twitz

and then they all jizz up.

don tess fass. chichi sex.

fremme neppa venette xes?

attack the institution for long enough, and you will *become* the institution. i've had this problem often enough when trying to be a troublemaker on other lists...

this thread is dated 2002?

Don't read your posts, weigh them.

my mother told me: "politeness keeps a lot of problems under control." ile told me: "doesn't matter if you do your best to be good and reasonable and polite, people will still think and say awful things about you." (and this, just when i needed to know that it's not just me who runs into this; i thought i'd have left it behind by the time i was grown up, though.)

I'm pregnant, and it's Jess'.

"don tess fass. chichi sex."

Jess, speaking of non de plumes are you Hunta-D?

This thread is good

yo!

for me to poop on

Some of these older threads would be better locked, I think.