The Eschatology of ILX

Fascism in the West. Anthropogenic Climate Disruption. Economic Collapse. Pandemic Coronavirus.

This is a thread for both noting the fixation that ILX (and likely the broader culture) has on eschatological scenarios (either literal or symbolic) and questions related to such obsessions. Are these concerns emergent from pre-existing psychological conditions that produce feelings of despair, fear, insecurity about the individual's circumstances projected onto society as a whole? Are they productive or healthy discourses? nb that I am in no way trying to downplay these concerns (at least not in aggregate - there are legitimate issues) but more with the approach of sensationalism, and the death drive that both sees crises as inevitable and terrifying as well as an aesthetic pleasure of auto-annihilation of the first order.

Is it ruining ILX? If you're reading threads about the economy or climate change or outbreaks and wondering whether these things are linked in some way in the collective unconscious of ILX - all responding to a similar set of internal or communal prompts, or all taking similar shape as amorphous, creeping, threatening dark clouds that keep you on edge and frightened of threats that aren't present and clear danger (or insofar as they are real threats that you find yourself stupefied and unable to respond to them in useful ways - drowning instead in a morass of too much fear-stimulus) - post here. This is a thread for a meta discussion about our own obsessions with the end of humanity, or the end of one particular human (ourselves) and ways to think about scary overwhelming processes + crises that don't afflict the participant further and don't become a perverse masochistic adventure into the abyss. What is the process we engage in when we're imagining the end of the world and does it ennoble us?

I blame the internet

You forgot Drumpf and the nuclear button!

and no I don't find this useful, it's the most annoying thing about ILX tbh

With the continuous shift towards individualism in Western society, maybe there is a general fear of loss of self. Not in the same sense of loss of self as in a unified collective, but precisely in an atomised one...with the post-modern dissipation of meaning, clutching to that which makes us unique is an armour against the denial of death, but if everyone is unique, then the meaning gets lost again and again and we are perpetually brought to the edge of reason, bordering hysteria at the annihilation of meaning. The eschatology of current times (or maybe all times idk) feels like a way of reasserting our specialness in the face of death. If now is the last of everything, then meaning is restored to us in a kind of jouissance of oblivion. Perverse masochistic adventure sounds about right!

And yeah, ILX a microcosm of this phenomena maybe (I don't know, I'm just here 4 the pollz)

*these

The Eschatology of ILX stipulates that there can be no salvation for centrists.

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

this board is less alarmist than most forums i've hung out on, it's more an internet thing

been trying to think about the last time a new optimistic vision of the future gained traction in popular culture

not recently

bernie sanders

otm

In sooth, I know not why I am so sad: it wearies me; you say it wearies you; but how I caught it, found it, or came by it, what stuff 'tis made of, whereof it is born, I am to learn; and such a want-wit sadness makes of me, that I have much ado to know myself.

(xp) Brexit.

Go in peace and sin some more.

I think that online discourse is obsessed with projecting towards an ultimate end point of whatever has most recently been noticed as A Bad Thing and has yet to really get to grips with the idea that not much really ever gets to develop to an ultimate end in this fashion, even if online discourse's projections were accurate.

With the continuous shift towards individualism in Western society, maybe there is a general fear of loss of self. Not in the same sense of loss of self as in a unified collective, but precisely in an atomised one...with the post-modern dissipation of meaning, clutching to that which makes us unique is an armour against the denial of death, but if everyone is unique, then the meaning gets lost again and again and we are perpetually brought to the edge of reason, bordering hysteria at the annihilation of meaning. The eschatology of current times (or maybe all times idk) feels like a way of reasserting our specialness in the face of death. If now is the last of everything, then meaning is restored to us in a kind of jouissance of oblivion. Perverse masochistic adventure sounds about right!

― tangenttangent, Thursday, 27 February 2020 16:48 (fifty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglinh

huge post tt!

im not sure that i agree that there is such a continuous shift towards individualism in this way tho.... online existence doesn't allow for such a clearcut finding afaict anyway?

i do think that the drive towards being unique is v strong on ilx, tho to what it may be attributed (even if not a projection of my own) i can only guess- have always thought something as simple as being from eg a big school in a big city in a populous country might factor in here but who knows? we are all wonderful individual valuable units of humanity ofc etc etc

if there's a dissipation of meaning etc at play id also wonder whether thats not v much attributable to the current political moment as much as a postmodern reality, 2015 onwards hasnt been especially kind towards the mental interfaces of what we might suppose a typical/mean/median or whatever term is best here ilx type is

I just like current events and don't have any interest in death or end of times. I don't have any "pre-existing psychological conditions that produce feelings of despair, fear, insecurity about the individual's circumstances projected onto society." I am annoyingly placid and content in real life.

as someone who pays a lot of attention to world crises (both potential and in progress) and gets annoyed by people who eyeroll at discussion of world crises, i get that i'm an exemplar of the shitty posting style discussed in this thread.
so i suppose i should come up with some kind of defense, or at least apologize and fuck off or whatever is the point

first, though, i'm curious if darraghmac would mind expanding a bit on this, because there's a few different ways to interpret it:

if there's a dissipation of meaning etc at play id also wonder whether thats not v much attributable to the current political moment as much as a postmodern reality, 2015 onwards hasnt been especially kind towards the mental interfaces of what we might suppose a typical/mean/median or whatever term is best here ilx type is

while i'm requesting clarification, mordy i mainly follow your op, but wasn't sure about the last few words of:

This is a thread for a meta discussion about our own obsessions with the end of humanity, or the end of one particular human (ourselves) and ways to think about scary overwhelming processes + crises that don't afflict the participant further

by that do you mean crises that don't actually directly affect the person worrying out loud about them?

whichever way seems kindest, i guess?

im acknowledging that its been a shitty few years for a lot of ppl and in that subset for sure i include those who take the hurts of the world to heart

i mean judging by the tone im readin in the part of yr post up to the question, im sensing you may want to unleash at me now or w/e but youd be imo reading me incorrectly to do so in terms of my intent at least

i dont feel, for a start, that anyone itt is eyerolling at discussion of world crises, but as a characterisation it in itself leaves an awful lot open, right?

xxp I meant ways of thinking about crises where the ways of thinking and discussing themselves do not further afflict the person (not the crisis itself which may or may not afflict the person)

Agree with much of tt's post I think

Lotta millennials are at a ripe age for their first or second personal existential crisis, and there's a lot of us on the internet

Have 2 examples of people I know who have been dealing with end of the world panics and it took very little pressing for them to connect it to their own fear of insignificance

Narcissism certainly an element

I think trump's election sent a shockwave to a certain class of young person who'd grown complacent in the preceding years, which really sped things along. The news cycle hasn't been kind either

shit sucks, i'm waiting for things to stop getting worse and start getting better, and i'm not just seeing it happening anytime soon. a bunch of people seem to have latched onto a potential savior, which is good for them, but i've been disappointed enough time before that i'm not going to get any hopes up on this one. if that's symptomatic of any sort of broader pathology i'm gonna officially call "not it" on that one. give me something to look forward to and i'll look forward to it, in the meantime i do my best not to piss and moan but life just plain fucking sucks and i'm past the point where i can pretend otherwise.

xpost to dmac

no, not trying to unleash! it's more of an inward loathing thing, like messing up in front of a bunch of people.

i grew up around lots of people who openly wished for the end of the world. so, i have a good idea of why i find myself drawn to those kinds of topics, potential catastrophes, things beyond my control. but i don't know how much that explanation would apply to anyone else, on ILX or otherwise.

The disruption of systems previously thought inviolable (regardless of whether that belief in inviolability was justified) upends notions of control and renders us less able to distract ourselves from the stark inevitability of death. And then we tend to conflate a lot of this shit such that every bump in the road becomes a launching point into the void.

xp well fwiw i always think you have as good a shot at anyone at making an interesting post about stuff km so go nuts imo

fwiw i feel like i do a pretty good job lately of avoiding the threads that tend to devolve into my eschatological rantings - environment, politics, pandemic, what have you - but i feel like i can always be counted on to contribute to a pervasive background attitude of lowercase despair.

lately i've been thinking a lot more about what a hilarious guy cioran was, which probably isn't a terribly good sign w/r/t the state of my current mental well-being, but hey, what is to be done?

i think tt's post is really thought-provoking and good! gonna repost it really quick:

With the continuous shift towards individualism in Western society, maybe there is a general fear of loss of self. Not in the same sense of loss of self as in a unified collective, but precisely in an atomised one...with the post-modern dissipation of meaning, clutching to that which makes us unique is an armour against the denial of death, but if everyone is unique, then the meaning gets lost again and again and we are perpetually brought to the edge of reason, bordering hysteria at the annihilation of meaning. The eschatology of current times (or maybe all times idk) feels like a way of reasserting our specialness in the face of death. If now is the last of everything, then meaning is restored to us in a kind of jouissance of oblivion. Perverse masochistic adventure sounds about right!

i do think think that postmodernism dissipation of meaning does lead to an increased reliance on individualism and seeking uniqueness. that makes sense to me. however, where i veer from the argument is that i don't think other people being unique makes my uniqueness any less, er, unique. so i don't sympathize with that point. and because of that, i actually think that thinking about or confronting world crises is an exercise in strengthening bonds with other people and feeling more connected to the fate of the human condition, of the inevitability of death, of the likelihood of our lives succumbing to greater forces that we can't directly control. tragedy along these lines makes me feel MORE like other people and much LESS unique. just throwing that out there, two cents, etc

so to rebrand my doomriddled existence in the most self-flattering light - i'm just worried about us, that's all

to somewhat more personally answer mordy's original question, id guess that the drive to focus on end-times narratives for the medium-to-long term appeals to the avoidant part of my personality, which tbh has used a lot less troubling excuses than those listed in the OP to excuse my not making grown up life decisions that involve risk or planning or commitments beyond the immediate

nb im not very *very* focused on the end-times narrative or anything but when i am, that's essentially what i used it for.

I blame the internet

― Οὖτις, Thursday, February 27, 2020 9:31 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

idk, for me i'm not interested in being unique, i'm not interested in being immortal, i'm not interested in, well, much of anything. textbook anhedonia, i guess. just tired. the world can spin on, or not. i don't remotely care one way or the other. call me if you need me, i'll be in bed.

I grew up around a lot of people who lived like they were treading water over their own graves and I have always felt the opposite. I don't fear death, I don't search for meaning or great significance in my life to my own detriment. It's no way to live. I likely contribute to the despair or stress of the board without fully realizing. Everyone has such different backgrounds and psychological makeups, it's hard to really label a mood of the board.

immanentize the eschaton? immanentize the eschaton!

it's hard to really label a mood of the board.

ILX is a mood board

the mood today is persimmon.

I have all the eschatology type threads bookmarked, more or less, except the global warming ones. I think this is because the political and economic and plague stuff all seems cyclical on a time scale such that I can still imagine a life with a reasonable retirement and grandkid(s).

The climate change / anthropocene extinction shit is epochal and inevitable in such a way that I can only really take it in small doses from time to time.

I grew up a semi-religious Christian such that eschatology is just kind of baked into my psyche. I spent a lot of time reading and re-reading Revelations, just marveling and wondering over it. And in the late 90s, there was definitely this idea floating around that the coming millennium could be the beginning of the end.

Weirdly enough, it was 9/11 and the subsequent wars that shook this thinking out of me, for the most part. It didn't feel apocalyptic; instead it felt like a repudiation of "the end of history." Of course it isn't over. The nightmare of history just keeps going. The other thing was realizing that people have been predicting the final end for thousands of years and have been wrong every time.

These days, I don't actually feel like the "end of the world" is imminent, not like I did when I was a religious 12-year-old. I do worry that the future, whatever it looks like, will be considerably worse than the present. And then I try to do what I can (probably not enough) to mitigate that.

been trying to think about the last time a new optimistic vision of the future gained traction in popular culture

not recently

― Generous Grant for Stepladder Creamery (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, February 27, 2020 11:54 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

The more Utopian responses to the rise of the Internet and the prospect of "free" information and communication? (Of course the information superhighway soon became a traffic jam of commerce and political disinformation.)

I am, on the one hand, congenitally predisposed towards fretting excessively about most things but am also, on the other hand, cognizant that I/we (as in the general populace as represented by those currently reading these words) are unlikely to experience the worst excesses of humanity as suffered by numerous less fortunate peoples throughout time and space.

'Unlikely', I said.

tbh the promise of universal healthcare and funding education is another sort of eschatology if you view those as ideals. the creation of an idealized world

ah

awkward, but, like.....

Derrida has a book that is effectively a collection of obituaries, entitled (in French) Chaque fois unique, la fin du monde, which is hard to properly translate into English (literally: 'each time unique, the end of the world'), but in its own way it perfectly summarizes a certain, let's say, synthetic view of eschatology: each life is a world unto itself, the singular is the plural and the plural is the singular…

The more Utopian responses to the rise of the Internet and the prospect of "free" information and communication? (Of course the information superhighway soon became a traffic jam of commerce and political disinformation.)

― Life is a banquet and my invitation was lost in the mail (j.lu)

even today we find "transhumanist" utopianism to be au courant in certain corners. ah, but which corners? to whom is the utopian dream accessible and/or plausible? not me. not something i dare to dream.

I feel like I'm constantly walking the beam between fatalism and the more assertive presence/reminders of finality. Most of the time I assuage any anxiety by recognizing the numerous ways I'm fortunate and how, in turn, that benefits my family and loved ones. Most of all I'm buoyed and in fact awed when I'm in the energizing presence of people I know who are truly optimistic and kind (one of whom, I've since learned, struggles with severe anxiety, so go figure). Other times I simply put on a record I love or watch a favorite movie again and am reminded that sometimes all the stars in the universe align and that simply because I exist at the right place and the right time I (and anyone) benefit, however superficially, and while that doesn't lend life purpose, per se, it does forestall looming dread. Or at least better helps me compartmentalize/balance its nagging presence.

As for ILX itself, I find it and its denizens helps. Even at its most negative and stupid I think it's significantly less negative and stupid than many (most?) things. Per Mordy's initial post, it often helps part the clouds rather than create them, imo. Again, maybe its the emphasis posting puts on the presence.

synthetic view of eschatology: each life is a world unto itself, the singular is the plural and the plural is the singular…

This happens on other scales as well - WWI was the end of a certain culture, WWII the end of another, the Tulsa Race Massacre - we should speak of apocalypses.

What Do You Scuttle Like Spring 2020

also feeling tombot has otm posts except for the smoking part.

I think ppl focusing on current problems w/ a bit of vim & brio are afforded some license for hyperbole and nonsense, but there is definitely a reflexive, superficial sense of doom you see here and elsewhere which I think is an abdication of thinking that leaves an underlying complacency unchallenged. of course the same can be true (tho isn't necessarily) of moving to the suburbs, having a career, measuring yourself, having kids, going to church or all manner of things. cheap despair also helps bring nihilism into disrepute which I think is a shame

my feelings are quite similar to the ones pomenitul expressed so well. I have some sense of the grand scale of the universe at the back of my mind all the time including of course the slow heat death, and that's quite soothing in so far as it is a rejection of eschatological thinking, a v unsatisfying denouement for some, but a context that makes here&now seem vivid to me.

I have ~500 friends on Facebook - the idea that coronavirus as a pandemic means that I might look back in a decade and say "oh yeah, I lost 10 people I know to that" is weird while also definitely being a thing experienced by many people distant in time or space.

This is more a pebble to turn over in my mind - I know that a pandemic doesn't mean 100% infection (though the coronavirus seems to have a better shot at that than most), and that people I know are generally younger and healthier than the 2% that will succumb to the virus.

On the other hand, if my mother does contract it, that will be her gone.

I have thoughts on the main subject but I honestly wish there was a function to hide that thread - I’m not convinced it’s useful and it seems to be panicking people unnecessarily, and then people keep seeing it getting bumped and clicking to see why.

I think ppl are gonna be made aware of the covid-19 outbreak whether or not we have a thread discussing it tbh, as with the virus itself it’s kinda difficult to limit exposure

No shit but I’m not convinced of the usefulness of people talking about how much they’re stockpiling and how worried they are and it seeming to escalate every time.

I mean I agree that stuff isn’t particularly useful but I really don’t see anything in that thread whipping anyone into a frenzy tbh, it’s like 90% the usual phatic banter™️, anecdotes, links &c

I wonder if this kind of all leads back to some people having inner monologues where they think (about these things) constantly and some people who don't.

Also, it would barely occur to me that that thread in particular would be upsetting/stressful. But I also am not taking care of dependents and have weird joy about prepared and organized about many weird things in life.

We'll just have a thread where we reveal we've all been cockroaches all along

― Guayaquil (eephus!)

team ungeheures Ungeziefer 2020

Gregorrrrrrrr

re: coronavirus, i in particular have an unfortunate tendency towards catastrophizing, thinking about mass epidemic death quickly turns into ruminating. i don't think there's anything i can do to "prepare" for such an eventuality. hopefully my wife doesn't die, because that would massively fuck me up, but anybody else dying i'd probably be able to handle the way i handle any other tragedy.

internal/external locus of control narratives def a consideration

I’ve unbookmarked both of the pandemic threads because they are too full of sturm und drang. Proper eschatology demands a lukewarm rocks glass half full of ennui.

https://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/46977/image.jpg

Utterly heart-sick of continual 'end times' posting everywhere on the internet and in general culture, dummies shouting out Ballard for having 'nailed it' back whenever it was he wrote his famous short story 'Coronavirus', some dingbat on my FB feed today posting up the Wikipedia page on the crappy UK TV show Survivors like Terry fucking Nation is somehow Nostradamus.

I’ve unbookmarked both of the pandemic threads because they are too full of sturm und drang

Both? There's about seven of them on the go at the moment.

Utterly heart-sick of continual 'end times' posting everywhere on the internet and in general culture, dummies shouting out Ballard for having 'nailed it' back whenever it was he wrote his famous short story 'Coronavirus'

― Maresn3st

which you may know under its alternate title "Why I Want To Fuck Ronald Reagan"

I didn't, but he's thrown repeated arrows at that same dartboard so many times I'm not surprised. Just seen a posting from another genius about 'a book' that was written in the 2000s about 'a virus that attacks people's lungs in 2020', how did they know? Maybe it was 'all planned', jfc

fuck, link?

Terrahawks was set in 2020 and there isn't even a Windsor Davies voice setting for Alexa (probably). These futurologists are all bluster.

XP - don't have one Darragh, sry.

very sinister all the same

Lol I got that in my work WhatsApp group

https://i.imgur.com/pGtcWw2.jpg

Also this one https://i.imgur.com/qqpmXyi.jpg

did everyones dad go through that period of buying these books in the nineties

catholicism is a hell of a drug

wow incredible predictive powers

Frankly insane that someone could just come up with the year 2020

I'd never heard of 2020 myself before about December.

I do work with a super devout Muslim guy who is convinced that the end of days is nearing and it's because of homosexuality - not that he's ever said that to me directly, but I overheard him talking about it to a young guy we had working with us for a while who was from an African Christian background.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F9SuVnIYLEj2c8%2Fgiphy.gif&f=1&nofb=1

xxp

You could say she had.....

2020 vision

look, I'm sorry, ok?

groanavirus

If I can't make stupid unfunny jokes in a crisis then, well, I don't really have a plan b.

I'd never heard of 2020 myself before about December.

― a passing spacecadet

but december isn't for another nine months! are you a time traveler?

I would imagine that if you're an author of shitty pulp fiction, sat in front of a word processor in 1998 writing your third dystopian outbreak novel and need a handy dandy year - not too far into the future - for shit to get real, 2020 is a nice well-balanced authorly number to reach for. The rest idk or care, I'm a bit of a tin-hat refusenik.

I got your back caal, I will be rearranging dadjokes as the ship goes down

but december isn't for another nine months! are you a time traveler?

I admire whichever strain of Christianity says that you should have your carol service after Christmas and shouldn't start singing carols until Christmas Day (when everyone else is getting bored of them and giving them one last day) because before that you don't know he's been born yet

at least, that's how my Dad explained it to me as a kid, no time to expand my reductive 6y/o worldview now

If these really are the end days I'd like to speak to the manager.

in the end it was eggplant

‼️بارش بادمجان از آسمان تهران
🔺از عجیب‌ترین‌ صحنه‌ها در تهران غرب تهران و بارش #بادمجان از آسمان pic.twitter.com/GRQYygIZeq

— saeedam (@proud656) March 15, 2020

what

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51926674

Who are our prophets?

lol i have a good quote for this occasion

בבא בתרא יב, ב

א"ר יוחנן מיום שחרב בית המקדש ניטלה נבואה מן הנביאים וניתנה לשוטים ולתינוקות

Rabbi Yochanan said: "After the destruction of the Holy Temple the power of prophecy was taken from the prophets and given to the mentally ill and to children.

lol

our prophets are Isaac and Malachi

Jacques Lacan claimed that, even if a jealous husband's claim about his wife – that she sleeps around with other men – is true, his jealousy is still pathological. Why? The true question is “not is his jealousy well-grounded?”, but “why does he need jealousy to maintain his self-identity?”.

Who are our prophets?

― pomenitul

my name isn't cassandra

maybe it should have been

The Messiah could be any one of us iirc, even unbeknownst to ourselves.