Salinger vs Pynchon

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robotchant (sine), Saturday, 9 November 2002 17:52 (twenty-three years ago)

same guy!

bob zemko (bob), Saturday, 9 November 2002 18:20 (twenty-three years ago)

More than you think.

Leee (Leee), Saturday, 9 November 2002 20:02 (twenty-three years ago)

not the same.
and Salinger wins
because Zooey saw jesus in the kitchen and jesus asked him for a small glass of ginger ale. a small glass, mind you.

mak, Saturday, 9 November 2002 20:50 (twenty-three years ago)

True story:

This person I used to do session work for, who had the honest to god surname of Salinger... I sat in while she auditioned a guitarist who, upon learning of our surnames made this sarcastic comment about "Hangin' out at the studio with J.D. and Upton..."

She hired him this comment. I walked out for the same reason. Sigh.

kate, Saturday, 9 November 2002 21:06 (twenty-three years ago)

I like both a lot, but I think Pynchon's impact and effect on other writers has been generally positive, one of opening up possibilities and encouraging the imagination, while Salinger has inspired countless third rate novels about clever and unhappy teens - a pal did a series of articles on books compared to Catcher In The Rye; he really loves all that stuff, but for me it's not much more of a recommendation than fantasy novels being compared to Tolkien.

And Pynchon's books are more fun, and there is more Pynchon to read, which when the stuff is good should count for something.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 9 November 2002 22:25 (twenty-three years ago)

Pynchon would be lot more fun to hang out with, with Salinger you'd just sit around watching "I Love Lucy" reruns.

James Blount (James Blount), Saturday, 9 November 2002 23:34 (twenty-three years ago)

How is watching I Love Lucy reruns not tremendous fun?

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 10 November 2002 00:09 (twenty-three years ago)

With Pynchon you'd be watching Godzilla movies all day.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 10 November 2002 04:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Has anyone else noticed that most of the books compared to "Catcher In The Rye" are nothing like it at all? For one thing, "Catcher" doesn't have a plot, which I like. For another, Holden Caulfield actually seems like a real person, not an alienated drone out of a Bret Easton Ellis novel. And it's actually funny! And Salinger sustains that voice perfectly throughout, while subtly letting us know that Holden is a rather unreliable narrator. That's hard to do.

Why am I the only one (okay, the only non-teenager) who really likes this book? Did everyone else sour on it after being forced to read it in high school or something?

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 10 November 2002 04:24 (twenty-three years ago)

I read it aloud to my girlfriend in college (originally read it at 15 and weepily identified w/ Holden, like everyone else), and we laughed hysterically through the whole thing. I totally agree that Holden is an unreliable narrator; I think the book reads just as well as a satire on that sort of teenage idealism as it does an apology for it (most of the interest coming, of course, from the tension between the two). This seemed obvious enough to 22 yr old me, and I'm surprised when people my age talk about how much they *still* identify with him. The Glass stories are the more straightforwardly sanctimonious Salinger, and I can't stand them. Overall, I'd take Pynchon anyday. I really have no desire to reread Salinger ever again, even CITR.

chzd (synkro), Sunday, 10 November 2002 05:17 (twenty-three years ago)

I may have read catcher in high school (on my own time), but I can't remember. I had certainly read it by my freshman year of college, when I read all the glass family stories too. I liked all of them; I've since reread the glass stuff and found it even better. the sanctimoniousness I'm not so sure about, but I have read none of these closely. around the time of my glass reread I picked up the idea from somewhere to read them with zen in the background. this may have tempered the possible sanctimoniousness somewhat.

the new yorker stylee dialogue I either try to get used to or ignore my negative reaction to.

Josh (Josh), Sunday, 10 November 2002 05:59 (twenty-three years ago)

The Glass stories really aren't sanctimonious (or "cute," for God's sake) at all. The fact that all the characters talk exactly the same could be a problem from a critical perspective, I suppose, but you could say the same about Hemingway (or PYNCHON, for crying out loud). Brilliant article by Janet Malcolm on the subject:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/14272

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 10 November 2002 06:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Pynchon's characters all have terribly distinct voices. Delillo on the other hand gets that justly lobbed at him all the time.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 10 November 2002 06:35 (twenty-three years ago)

Holden always seemed exactly like an alienated drone out of a Bret Easton Ellis novel to me. Or wait! That's a bad example, 'cause I like many of the characters in BEE. I read Catcher in the Rye at precisely the point in my life when I was supposed to love it and identify with HC and stuff, but I think I hated him from just about the first page. He reminded me of my friends (I honestly hope that's not some sort of projection on my part...).

Hey, but you wouldn't be watching Godzilla with Pynchon, you'd be watching King Kong over and over again!

Dan I., Sunday, 10 November 2002 06:37 (twenty-three years ago)

or reading comix!

Josh (Josh), Sunday, 10 November 2002 06:45 (twenty-three years ago)

I do like Catcher In The Rye - I think it's a terrific and interesting novel, if often overvalued. There are plenty of good things that have had a bad influence afterwards, I think.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 10 November 2002 12:20 (twenty-three years ago)

And it led to the death of John Lennon! Oh wait...

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 10 November 2002 15:30 (twenty-three years ago)

...that was Mind Games.

James Blount (James Blount), Sunday, 10 November 2002 19:38 (twenty-three years ago)

YES, I was thinking of DeLillo with the identical voices among characters thing.

Jordan (Jordan), Sunday, 10 November 2002 20:20 (twenty-three years ago)

I agree - with the odd exception, I think that's DeLillo's major flaw in that there's never anything that strikes you as a unique voice - I'm not talking necessarily talking about old-fashione views of characterisation, but everyone in DeLillo (White Noise excepted, possibly) seems secondary to his own portrayal of his Big Worldview. The tone of DeLillo novels always seems the same.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 10 November 2002 21:03 (twenty-three years ago)

whattabout the body artist?

Josh (Josh), Sunday, 10 November 2002 21:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Neither Salinger nor Pynchon ever existed: "Catcher in the Rye" and "Gravity's Rainbow" were both written by B. Traven.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 10 November 2002 22:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Josh - Grrrrrr... I'll let you know when I read it. Damn bastards picking holes in my argument ;)

Matt DC (Matt DC), Sunday, 10 November 2002 22:46 (twenty-three years ago)

"the black scapeape cast down like lucifer from the world's tallest erection"

bob zemko (bob), Sunday, 10 November 2002 23:48 (twenty-three years ago)

godzilla features in vineland

mark s (mark s), Monday, 11 November 2002 00:16 (twenty-three years ago)

the body artist does have the same voice tone at least in all the nyc set scenes. the authorial tone is different for a change though.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 11 November 2002 04:37 (twenty-three years ago)

D'oh! sorry, I read Vineland like six years ago.

Dan I., Monday, 11 November 2002 06:04 (twenty-three years ago)

herman hesse.

kephm, Monday, 11 November 2002 15:47 (twenty-three years ago)

five months pass...
You have to admire the capacity of some of these respondents.

the pinefox, Thursday, 24 April 2003 11:35 (twenty-two years ago)

This thread reminds me how much I hate trying to talk about things that I actually unabashedly love, because it never comes out right and you always open yourself up for (unspoken?) ridicule.

The very first reply made me burst out laughing the first time I read it.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 24 April 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

six years pass...

Well Salinger's back in the public eye, sorta:

In “The Catcher in the Rye,” the narrator Holden Caulfield warns his readers to beware of phonies, and his creator, J. D. Salinger, evidently still believes in that caution. On Monday, Mr. Salinger, the reclusive author, filed suit against the writer and the publisher of a planned book that claims to be a sequel to “The Catcher in the Rye,” Reuters reported. In an interview in The Telegraph, the author John David California said that his coming novel, called “60 Years Later: Coming Through the Rye,” would feature a 76-year-old character called Mr. C, who wanders the streets of New York after he escapes his nursing home, in a manner similar to Holden Caulfield’s escape from an elite prep school. In The Telegraph, Mr. California said that Mr. Salinger was “a great writer who influenced the entire world with the words he made up” and said that his novel was “a tribute the way Holden would have said it.” In the suit, filed in U.S. District Court in Manhattan, lawyers for Mr. Salinger said, “The sequel is not a parody and it does not comment upon or criticize the original. It is a rip-off pure and simple,” according to Reuters.

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:10 (sixteen years ago)

J.D. OTM

I Got Great Gusto, but Only Some I Can Trust Yo (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:12 (sixteen years ago)

yeah that's an odd thing to try

sonderangerbot, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:16 (sixteen years ago)

I'd read The Catcher In The Rye With Zombies.

EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:39 (sixteen years ago)

who wouldn't?

Obama seems to have the views of a 21-year-old Hispanic girl (HI DERE), Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:43 (sixteen years ago)

"Anyway, it was December and all, and I was going to say it was cold as a witch's teat, especially on top of that stupid hill, but I'd just felt zombie teat for the first time..."

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:56 (sixteen years ago)

photoshop please?

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 17:59 (sixteen years ago)

something better than this:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2133/frannie.jpg

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 2 June 2009 18:14 (sixteen years ago)

That John David California guy advances a counterargument:

According to a legal brief provided by his lawyers, Fredrik Colting, the author of the book “60 Years Later: Coming Through the Rye,” says that his novel is not a sequel to “Catcher in the Rye,” but rather “a complex and undeniably transformative exposition about one of our nation’s most famous authors, J.D. Salinger, and his best known creation, Holden Caulfield.”

The book “explores the famously reclusive Salinger’s efforts to control both his own persona and the persona of the character he created,” according to the brief. “It also scrutinizes and criticizes the iconic stature of Salinger and his creation by comparing the precocious and self-satisfied 16-year-old Holden with a 76-year-old version of himself fraught with indecision and insecurity.”

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 16 June 2009 17:11 (sixteen years ago)


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