Is virtue signaling an actual thing that people are capable of doing

or is it 100% equivalent to "SJW" as a way to criticize and/or dismiss progressive arguments or stances via caricature? Is it both?

It's useful for when you're tired of typing "politically correct" but can't work "purple haired Tumblr users" into the sentence.

it's actually a really astute phrase that unfortunately has connotations of being mostly used by white bro douchebags

try creating a Twitter account and get back to me in a week

i do think it's true that there's usually some space between the things people claim to believe and how they behave. the reason why it's so dumb as a criticism from conservatives is that literally performs to a degree in any social context.

like, how 'badass' or whatever can some guy in a lifted pickup truck with a trump sticker really be? he can make his engine smoke blacker i guess. it's vice signaling afaict.

i think there's a small kernel of insight in the phrase when it comes to white liberals putting black lives matter signs in their yards and then voting for cops etc. but of course that's not how idiot conservatives use it.

is "nuance signalling" a thing

agree with map

i think it can be a useful concept especially when applied to corporations or politicians or other entities with ultimately sinister motives, but the term itself is soiled from its association with the right wing

"purple haired Tumblr users"

i resent this

and i think the example of pro-cop liberals with BLM signs is increasingly relevant

feel like i encounter more and more people who stamp slogans all over their social media while posting things that are bafflingly contradictory to them. but i think a lot of the time people just aren't thinking very hard about whether their actual beliefs contradict the slogans. everyone loves a slogan!

The concept of "virtue signaling," like the Dave Matthews Band, has a certain amount of intrinsic merit but it's hard to get past the annoyingness of its hardcore fans.

And that is why it is so bad and hated.

I'd say that anyone who has lived in a very small town, where everyone knows the church-going habits of everyone else, knows that virtue-signalling is 'an actual thing'. However, in my observation, when it is used rhetorically and applied in a political environment, it is code for saying someone is a poser and a hypocrite, whereas the people who are labelled in that way are usually fervid true believers in the positions they are espousing.

I just find it hilarious how conservatives are incapable of self-awareness. A big part of their shtick is virtue signaling! But it's only when other people who value virtues different from the ones they care about that they're able to see it.

It's not a useful term because it describes behavior that applies to everyone at some point, consciously or unconsciously, hypocritically or not.

As conservatives wield it, it's just the same slur as politically correct or SJW. For hypocrisy, dishonesty or playing to the approval of the crowd we already have better and more precise language.

It isn't really about hypocrisy though ... or political correctness really ... it's closer to signifying moral superiority through association with or reference to things that are higher in the moral hierarchy relative to the other person or persons involved in the argument. It isn't coming out and saying straight up, "I have greater moral discernment than you do." It's closer to the classic "I don't even own a television." That was 1990s virtue signaling.

I just find it hilarious how conservatives are incapable of self-awareness. A big part of their shtick is virtue signaling! But it's only when other people who value virtues different from the ones they care about that they're able to see it.

this is totally otm

it can also function not as an antagonistic mode, but instead an affiliation mode -- like one can "virtue signal" to others that also know the code and have the same values, that one is "like-minded."

It means “(I don’t like that you are) setting a good example”

Its a mixture of the two. Smugness that may or may not be combined with hypocrisy, often but not always projected

That being said, if someone does use the phrase unironically to me I say I don't know what the phrase means and have them explain it to me

The best example is the performative display of poppies everywhere in the UK through October/November, guess the "thank you for your service" thing is a rough US equivalent.

In late 2016 we had this phrase "performatively woke" which we stopped using in 2017 for some reason. I think saying things are performative is much clearer in meaning and intent.

It's also another social "issue" that has fuck all to do with actual government and is relatively harmless yet conservatives treat it like it's the sign of the apocalypse or some shit that needs to be stamped out.

obviously conservatives are hypocrites if you expect them to play by the rules they force on everyone else, but when have they ever done that?

VS is like PC it only goes one way on purpose. people keep trying to make "right wing PC" stick as a concept but it doesn't because why care about being fair or consistent in some abstract sense when you have actual power?

on the other hand it does clearly bother them that the left keeps claiming a moral highground which when it gets believable enough works a sort of soft power, it's not much but it apparently still feels threatening. so they love to charge hypocrisy themselves, which hurts more than the other way round because the left makes more of an effort to appear to care about stuff like that

The right wing always accuses its enemies of doing what the right wing does.

Like many phrases that right-wingers sink their teeth into and shake the life out of, it may once have been useful in explaining a more nuanced phenomenon but now it just sounds like the idiot babbling of the newly-lobotomized. POLITICALLY CORRECT FAKE NEWS VIRTUE SIGNALER!!!!! (gobbles ivermectin, shits self)

It seems like one of those phrases that says more about the descriptor than the described. After all, only the descriptor gets to describe what "virtue" is (or isn't). Everything else is mere projection.

If "virtue signalling" is meant to imply hypocrisy, or disingenuousness, or twattery, then it's probably better to just call someone disingenuous, a hypocrite, or a twat.

Also, the idea that being "performative" and wanting to "signal" things is innately bad and non-authentic is obviously stupid innit. Every action is a signal of something.

on the other hand it does clearly bother them that the left keeps claiming a moral highground which when it gets believable enough works a sort of soft power, it's not much but it apparently still feels threatening. so they love to charge hypocrisy themselves, which hurts more than the other way round because the left makes more of an effort to appear to care about stuff like that

― Left, Tuesday, August 31, 2021 3:22 AM (four hours ago)

otm

I think saying things are performative is much clearer in meaning and intent.

but there are lot of performative acts that aren't about "virtue" ... "virtue signaling" is a form of performativity, but performativity encompasses more than just virtue signaling.

i think there's a small kernel of insight in the phrase when it comes to white liberals putting black lives matter signs in their yards and then voting for cops etc. but of course that's not how idiot conservatives use it.

― Linda and Jodie Rocco (map),

otm

A student last week accused Jungle Cruise of "virtue signaling" for its use of a gay character. I went aaaaah and stepped away from my computer.

Thanks for all the responses. Agreed with "i think there's a small kernel of insight in the phrase when it comes to white liberals putting black lives matter signs in their yards and then voting for cops etc.", but I do find it interesting how shy the wording is in that caveat. Surely if that scenario is possible for it to be a thing others can be as well, and to other degrees. SJW has always clearly been a cartoon boogeyman term. "Virtue signaling" however is so ruined by right wingers weaponizing it that I guess there isn't a good way to call out that type of bullshit when it's actually useful? Or do you believe that that term, like SJW, originated in bad faith? That's why I worded it in the OP as "is there such a thing as this, even? Does it even exist?"

to build off map's otm post

this is the best concrete, real-world example i can think of

https://vispronetprod-18d8a.kxcdn.com/design_tool/data/cscart_files/images/detailed/19/YardSign-KindnessIsEverything_y9fu-w7.jpg

hey in my neighborhood I see one of those signs amid Blue Lives Matter stickers shining on pickup trucks and I want to take the entire family to Applebee's.

it's not that the sentiment is so objectionable, but mostly that these are the same people who will fight tooth and nail against ever having affordable housing anywhere near their neighborhood

Yeah those signs seems to increase in number the swankier and whiter an urban neighborhood is. Was also thinking - the ritualized land acknowledgments at meetings that go on to say nothing about indigenous people or their issues - like, who is this for? What is it doing?

it's not that the sentiment is so objectionable, but mostly that these are the same people who will fight tooth and nail against ever having affordable housing anywhere near their neighborhood

Right, but we already had the word "hypocrisy" to mean that, and the hypocrisy is the problem, not the sign or the "signaling" that it might exemplify.

If we follow m bison's formula (from the Afghanistan thread)

virtues are good and signaling them is also good bc then ppl will do the good things

Then signs like that are good. If you agree with the sentiment but you don't like the sign, that's an aesthetic issue, not a moral one. Maybe. Or maybe you're just a crank. Which given present company is a strong possiblity.

it's not that the sentiment is so objectionable, but mostly that these are the same people who will fight tooth and nail against ever having affordable housing anywhere near their neighborhood

― Mr. Cacciatore (Moodles), Tuesday, August 31, 2021 1:06 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

ha was not uncommon to see these next to "don't bulldoze our neighborhood" signs (which were against a ballot initiative to ease zoning restrictions to make it easier to build multi-family structure - duplexes, triplexes, etc -- in some residential neighborhoods

As Chuck Tatum said upthread, if you mean "hypocrisy," then perhaps just say that (rather than bite the steez of right-wing douchebros)

they are bad because they reduce politics to just things you believe inside of you and not things that are actually accomplished. that's why they can put signs about zoning issues next to them with no understanding why it's wrong. individually the phrases are very empty. like an oil company geologist and an environmental scientist can both believe "science is real." anti-maskers yell "follow the science" all the time. it isn't just hypocritical.

"they" meaning the signs. they are also ugly.

Well, unless you have more information than the yard sign, you are kinda jumping to the conclusion that ALL they're doing to foster justice is putting up the sign.

So some "virtue signalers" might be signaling virtues that they lack. Others might be signaling virtues that they do, in fact, possess (and act accordingly).

(I hasten to note that I don't have one of those signs.)

that's really the tribalist element of it, which is "I can boil my beliefs down to a sign". and then fight tooth and nail when someone debates anything on the sign, not because you strongly believe in it, but because you have a sign on your lawn and you can't be having a sign on your lawn with some incorrect nonsense on it!

"well, I don't really believe #4 and #6, but I believe #1, 2, 3, and 5, and they don't make a sign for just that, so I'll get this one".

also further dilutes the idea that one can evolve in their views over time.

yeah each person with the sign could be doing or not doing any number of different things, it gives one so much freedom to be an asshole or not an asshole

There are dozens of those signs in my neighborhood, but not in my yard. We do have a hand-made Black Lives Matter sign. That's too important not to rep for.

xxpost "virtue signaling" as a dis can mean a lot of things, but i always took it to mean "all you're doing is presenting the good things you do and believe as a way of amplifying yourself as an example of a good and wholesome person, and not amplifying the people and things you are fighting for".

signaling virtue

the well has been poisoned by the number of right-wing assholes who are using it to mean "LOL, you are a GOOD PERSON, you NERD", but the sentiment at the core of the purest interpretation of VS is a real phenomenon

what did i just signal with that quip?

why does he have his own flag?

it's a merchandising opportunity

xxpost new borad descript

I guess the gen x-er in me just finds any sort of "message" or political sign/flag around one's home to be like soooo lame man.

I don't want to be misconstrued as caping for these signs that are ugly as fuck and stupid, but one of the most reliable tropes about ilx is watching people make absolutely asinine assumptions about people's interior lives and thoughts based on a sample size of a grand total of one outdoor yard sign.

It's the equivalent of the dipshits that hear you reference one band, one time and spend the entire rest of their social interactions with you assuming you are said band's global #1 fan. Jesus, grant people a little more depth of thought for once in your lives.

Ugh. I already regret venting my frustration here, but that simple minded shit drives me nuts.

Notice that it's always negative assumptions that are made. I do it too (tho I'd like to think I scold myself upon reflection), it's like it's hardwired into the human mind.

this is a clearer example of the kind of thing i think some people were trying to get at (?)

This fucking country, man pic.twitter.com/e6KWztfVYU

— Michael Oswell (@_MichaelOswell_) August 30, 2021

stating the far too obvious the sign/flag thing absolutely depends on who is displaying it in what context

Agreed. For example, out on the road today I saw a BLM sticker on a Cadillac.

hippie-signalling? performative grooviness? is this anything

i can see you
your virtue signaling in the sun

I can tell you
My virtue will still be strong
After the affordable housing is gone

One time I saw an obviously wealthy boomer couple driving a black BMW SUV and the license plate said ZNFNDL

tipple signalling

IMDRNK would be a funny vanity plate

ILXOR

automatic police stop because they're drunk on their own posts

Facebook is basically like 3,000 of these lawn signs per day, on a variety of topics

my ban is up and while I have started posting here and there again, I barely read it at all. it's bliss.

^virtue-signaling

I don't even own a virtue

Suddenly flashing back to the early-2010s talking point that Occupy Wall Street was just guys acting like activists to “pick up chicks,” which seems like the start of some of this.

Do people think no one got laid at '60s rallies

I think I had a breakthrough today, when I observed that the term "virtue signaling" would never ever in a million years be applied to people who post on the internet about taking down elite pedophile cabals

It’s essentially missionary work. Humans follow patterns.

I can tell you
My virtue will still be strong
After the affordable housing is gone

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, August 31, 2021 1:36 PM (yesterday)

and this is why I love ILX

Facebook is basically like 3,000 of these lawn signs per day, on a variety of topics

― Duke Detain (Neanderthal), Tuesday, August 31, 2021 5:08 PM (yesterday)

yeah, that's along the lines of what I was trying to get at about "virtue signaling" being a subset of performativity. Like Facebook is 99.5% performativity and the rest is "what's the cheapest dentist" and "reliable Volvo mechanic?" But only some of that performativity is virtue signaling -- the 3000 lawn signs.

I'm more forgiving of those sorts of signs since it's better than the now apparently-acceptable alternative of being a proud fascist.

these signs only appear in deep blue suburbs.

uh no

see above

One time I saw an obviously wealthy boomer couple driving a black BMW SUV and the license plate said ZNFNDL

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown)

rejected "Boys of Summer" lyrics I have loved

Was also thinking - the ritualized land acknowledgments at meetings that go on to say nothing about indigenous people or their issues - like, who is this for? What is it doing?

― JoeStork, Tuesday, August 31, 2021 11:14 AM (yesterday)

otm! I was thinking about this the other day, actually. Like, "land acknowledgements" are inherently location-specific and context-specific. But what seems to have happened in practice, is that progressive groups in some regions have adopted it because "everyone else is doing it" and not really interrogating the specifics of the history of the indigenous peoples where they are vs. the initial colonialists, and subsequent conquests.

It reminds me of the George Floyd protests, where in Minneapolis, the protesters looted, smashed and burned a Target store. ... And then when the protests spread to other parts of the country, the protesters attacked Target stores, because that's what Minneapolis did. And I'm not saying this in the context of "damaging corporate property = bad" ... but in the tension/juxtaposition of the tendency of "property crime" in the context of protests being spontaneous and autonomous

https://mashable.com/article/in-this-house-we-believe-black-lives-matter-kindness-is-everything-sign

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, August 31, 2021 3:36 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

is this satire

requesting a dramatic adulatory mashable article about every single post in why do i hate that artist thing that people keep posting on my facebook so much? why am i such a jerk?

they are bad because they reduce politics to just things you believe inside of you and not things that are actually accomplished. that's why they can put signs about zoning issues next to them with no understanding why it's wrong. individually the phrases are very empty. like an oil company geologist and an environmental scientist can both believe "science is real." anti-maskers yell "follow the science" all the time. it isn't just hypocritical.

― criminally negligible (harbl), Tuesday, August 31, 2021 1:23 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

booming post

these things should be *performative* in the non-performative-wokeness sense of the word, they can be to some extent, they resonate, they do some work, for better and/or worse, despite/because whatever self-interest from various parties. fuck turning it all into just vibes and content and all that bullshit. most of these are solid values, i think, some of them as solid as you can get right now. if they're just for being put on up a wall somewhere as some kind of concession in lieu of the resourses necessary to actually back them up then they're bullshit and the people who believe in them should use every capacity to make them not bullshit

basically if or when virtue signalling works we can and should use it. because it's not great but it seems to do something

when it doesn't, or when it stops working, it's bullshit

Left and harbl otm

Like, this collective community center I've recently gotten involved in has meetings where at the beginning of the meeting we go around and state our preferred pronouns and say if we have accessibility needs. And sometimes it seems like ... hey, there are only 5 of us here, and we all know each other, and it feels kinda absurd, but you know, it's a good practice to have. Same with thanking everyone and expressing appreciation for emotional labor ... it's nice to feel thanked and appreciated.

are the preferred pronouns optional? I feel like asking people to commit to those can put people in a position where they have to decide on them and in a public setting when they may not be ready and comfortable.

there are a lot of she/they or he/they pronouns stated ...in addition to people who are solely "they" and trans people who are "she" (no they)

tbh I think pronoun declarations make a substantial minority of trans ppl feel uncomfortable, but most of that subset (myself among them) have come to the conclusion that it’s the best of the universally imperfect options presented by the realities of language and society.

being questioning/in early transition is deeply awkward, period, and neither being asked about yr pronouns nor having them assumed are a lot of fun, but erring on the side of self-determination is the best we can do. I will say I prefer a pile of pins/badges to the “go around the room” ritual; feels more casual, and getting to be at all casual about gender is such a rare luxury when yr in that headspace.

incredibly relatable

"Virtue signaling" is much like calling the Democratic Party the "Democrat" party. Wingnuts do this thinking that their ability to call the left names constitutes proof that they're smarter than 'em.

when your lawn sign comes with caveats

They covered up “no human is illegal” pic.twitter.com/LKtKEoIFOE

— fourth and 5.5 inches (@moleburps) September 19, 2021

Reading the "preferred pronouns" discussion upthread, this is something I'm thinking about a lot as I'm teaching French to middle schoolers, quite a few of whom use nonbinary pronouns. My classes usually involve a lot of talking to and about each other - like, ask each other these questions and then report on what you found out! So I'm now trying to figure out the best way to bring French nonbinary pronouns (which are still very new and not officially recognized but do exist) into the classroom, and also the best way to make sure we all state our pronouns when we're doing an activity like that so the nonbinary kids don't have to deal with being misgendered all the time. But every time I talk about nonbinary pronouns - and you do kind of have to talk about it because gender-neutral language in French is way harder than it is in English - I feel like I'm probably making those kids feel uncomfortable. I wish there were a better way but I don't think there is.

I have an enby kid in high school; they asked their Spanish teacher about how to do nonbinary pronouns.

The teacher wasn't a jerk about it - she understood the question and took it seriously. But ultimately all she could do was shrug and point back to the textbook.

Like when I learned French one would say la porte but le stylo, and if you didn't yet know what you were referring to, it would end up as il / ils because masculine is generic.

yeah, I may be putting more emphasis on it than I need to, but my feeling is who cares if it's not textbook French yet, people who want to use it are using it, and we're not actually in France, we're in a school where a bunch of kids use nonbinary pronouns and are used to getting a fair amount of support for that from the school. So it would feel very weird and wrong to me to go "sorry, you can have nonbinary pronouns everywhere but in French class, plz choose a gender now," especially when there are plenty of French-speakers out there who are pushing for more gender-neutral language.

But it is extra complicated. The pronouns themselves are easy - iel and ielle are the main ones - but you also have to say what adjective agreements you're using, and those have to be either masculine or feminine. Which is annoying, and adds a step, but it's not as much of a deal-breaker as it sounds like. For one thing, as you said, masculine is generic. And for another, when even inanimate objects like the table and the door have gendered adjective endings, gender agreement isn't quite as imbued with the idea of personal identity as an English-speaker might assume. Or at least that's how I understand it.