boundaries

Have been thinking about boundaries recently in a loose sort of way, mainly brought on by various things I’m reading but also from stories about things houseguests and loved ones have done while staying during the festive season.

My boundaries are very hard-won. It is important to push back, not least because I will not lie awake angry about things that are mostly pretty unimportant. The more you are aware of and enforce said boundaries the more it passes from conscious behaviour to unconscious thought and you can become one of those awful assertive people, y/n?

It is generally a truism that people will treat you how you let them, but also I am aware that I miss out on friends and experiences for this reason. It’s a hard needle to thread. So I move from being too harsh on people for the most part to feeling angry if I have a boundary stepped on or violated and it’s up to me to work that balance out.

It’s important to know where you draw that line, and that will be different for everyone. It’s even more important to understand people’s own personal boundaries and how they protect them, some people are better at being upfront about this and their own needs than others, and it can be easy to take those of people who are quiet and non confrontational for granted. This isn’t an excuse for being less aware.

I’m interested in hearing from everyone about where their own boundaries lie, what they do to enforce them, and if they have similar difficulties.

Id introduce the further additional complicating factor of then being in different places for different people and when you yourself are in various contexts or moods etc

So my answer is its fluid, to an enormous degree

*enters thread waving enormous white flag*

look i know we've had our recent differences and i know a load of you think i'm a stupid asshole, which is to some extent definitely the case, but this thread feels like it could be valuable in unpicking various strands of antipathy that have been of late baked into ilx (which I will admit I certainly share fault in)

my own boundaries are pretty liberal (good choice of word eh lol yes yes) and i do realise a lot of that comes from privilege; i can afford to have liberal boundaries because yielding to others doesn't threaten my extremely secure sense of self (a sense that has come under SOME attack in recent years as i contemplate artistic failure, unwantedness etc - but a sense that is ready to rebound at any moment)

and so it is not my place to criticise when others have harsher boundaries, and in fact irl i have friendships where i now know how to respect these boundaries a lot better (being definitely kinda aspie has meant i've been way too self-absorbed, and continue to be on the internet at times, for which i apologise)

however i think it's good for everyone to examine where their boundaries come from, when they're able to modify them, and circumstances where they are not gonna stand for someone's shit (eg mine, lawlz)

so yeah good thread idk why am i posting oh yeah it's this white flag see

happy new year everyone esp gyac

2022 resolution to not beef except with alphie

fin

I read Nedra Tawwab's Set Boundaries: Find Peace (twice!) and would recommend it to anyone looking for real talk about boundaries.
Personally, I am very good at maintaining some (with my rude abusive grandmother for example) and (historically) VERY bad at maintaining others (mostly at work). The concept of creating/maintaining/shifting one's boundaries can be life-changing! Thanks for this thread.

super cool of imago to pop in and make it all about him :-/

LL, tbh my op is asking for people to make it about them because by necessity we will (hopefully?) understand our own boundaries best

Kinda opposite LL i think, a lot of my working life has needed clear boundary setting and I think I'm mostly good at that (as long as I feel the boundaries are important and reasonable)

Personally tho idk I'm very conflict avoidant - lol I swear that's true - and sometimes have a compulsion to be over-open maybe? because I yearn for some kind of connection (I just can't make the) so I probably maintain my safe space more thru avoidance and retreat than more assertive techniques. I think mainly I'm fine with that tho

Darragh's not wrong that everything is case by case tho

idk I have a weird "reserve is good"/"absolutely sincerity is good" binary rattling around in me but don't we all contain multitudes?

Nah that all totally chimes with me, open until you see the recoil or you get bit yrself then back into scuttling mode

Have to say i find it pays off richly, when it pays off, a lot of my favourite people are fixtures in my life because they respond well to relaxed openness which i think is too rare a trait

Personally tho idk I'm very conflict avoidant - lol I swear that's true - and sometimes have a compulsion to be over-open maybe? because I yearn for some kind of connection

Would def have said that about you tbh

i've been thinking a lot about some extreme boundaries i've had to put into place recently for abusive family (no contact). or rather, you don't get to interact with me x way, and if you do, repeatedly (they do, and have shown that they want to keep it up), then you won't be in my life. i wonder sometimes just how much it's my responsibility to spell all this out to them when i'm frankly just exhausted and need to not talk to them at all. i wish i were able to do that, i'd feel better about all of this, but quite frankly i'm just not.

i think because i'm a cis man, i don't have my boundaries crossed or pushed as regularly by strangers or by coworkers as i otherwise would. BUT i do have a notably domineering supervisor who does not treat others with respect and crosses boundaries because she can. recently i really stood up for a particular boundary (you don't just get to tell me what to do, citing seniority, without discussing the larger reasoning / goals with me). in the past i would have just let it go and quietly seethed / despaired, but i just couldn't do it this time. i asked for a meeting with her the next day and was pretty good about communicating that i wasn't ok with it.

on the other end, because i was raised by a woman who basically only wants to cross other peoples' boundaries to establish a power imbalance / relationship of control in a misguided attempt at feeling close to other people (and all her enablers), i've had a fucked up playbook that i'm still in the process of erasing and revising. i.e., i have to be really mindful about respecting the boundaries of my relationships. it's a bad habit to slip into acting in ways that cross a boundary without asking about that boundary in the first place (or, in most cases, recognizing what that boundary is based on already-received information).

i had a really wonderful conversation with a friend of mine recently. he teaches at a montessori school and works with toddlers. he was talking about how one of the most important things you can start teaching a child is what boundaries are, how to communicate about them, and that ultimately this is a very loving thing to do. it enables little people to begin the process of treating others with respect, which is foundational for love.

arsehole next door trying to set boundaries when he was totally ignoring mine and had been since he moved in.
I do wonder if it was a white privilege thing, ahole trying to make out I wasa subordinate or something.
& his wife is even worse.
Unbelievable shite.

oh yeah boundaries supposedly being set about them having ignored boundaries which was the cause of the situation

When my daughter got into her teens she actually taught me a lot about boundaries and made me think about how the dodgy societal "norms" of parenting need examination and pushback

obv nil illegitimi carborundum and all that :)

(NV taught me that phrase on here many moons ago, it is evergreen)

I don't know how to tell the difference between a healthy boundary and an obscene fortification with a moat filled with alligators. What if your boundaries conflict with the reasonable needs of people you care about? What if the boundaries you need for your mental health are also bad for your mental health?

(being definitely kinda aspie has meant i've been way too self-absorbed, and continue to be on the internet at times, for which i apologise)

however i think it's good for everyone to examine where their boundaries come from, when they're able to modify them, and circumstances where they are not gonna stand for someone's shit (eg mine, lawlz)

(I mean, I guess the answer here is "go back to therapy you idiot")

xp to self

Do we have internal boundaries from ourselves too?

I don't know how to tell the difference between a healthy boundary and an obscene fortification with a moat filled with alligators. What if your boundaries conflict with the reasonable needs of people you care about? What if the boundaries you need for your mental health are also bad for your mental health?

Do we have internal boundaries from ourselves too?

I know I have things I refuse to think about much, even without dragging the unconscious into it

i think one of the things people talk about when they're talking about boundaries is the amount of work they do, have historically done, relative to others in relationships. for instance, i'm a gay man who was raised in a very patriarchal and homophobic church. i.e., i had to do all the psychic work of staying alive, and no one else had to do any work of changing their beliefs and behavior. so coming out of that, i'm particularly sensitive to any hint of "i'm going to have to do the work in this relationship." i guess one of my boundaries is, i won't work for you if you aren't going to work for me?

to the people who are feeling lonely based on hard boundaries they feel like they have to set - i say, it's so hard to do, but it's just so much better for you than not respecting your needs, keep it up, it's worth it in the end.

I don’t know if I have anything concrete to add here yet - other than that I’m extremely conflict averse generally - but thanks for starting this thread; I’ll be thinking on it.

i've been thinking a lot about some extreme boundaries i've had to put into place recently for abusive family (no contact). or rather, you don't get to interact with me x way, and if you do, repeatedly (they do, and have shown that they want to keep it up), then you won't be in my life. i wonder sometimes just how much it's my responsibility to spell all this out to them when i'm frankly just exhausted and need to not talk to them at all. i wish i were able to do that, i'd feel better about all of this, but quite frankly i'm just not.

I know I have things I refuse to think about much, even without dragging the unconscious into it

xp oh, absolutely. of course it's worth it. i just wonder sometimes about the "spelling it out" part. like, did i let them know enough. but then i remember, yes i did. and at this point, really, shouldn't abusive people know that they need to change, at like 65 years old? if they don't know at that point, it isn't my responsibility to give them an essay about it. holding tight to the actual boundary of no communication is so much more important than trying to explain again, which if you think about it, is a form of substituting myself for what is ultimately not my issue to fix.

it's wild how much no-contact with certain people is by far the most loving thing you can give both them and yourself. i can literally feel the space and healing it gives me.

There are definitely internal boundaries. I've had to set both external and internal boundaries to try to stem some of the behaviours & emotional states of borderline personality disorder, but in doing so I've basically become someone displaying the behaviours of avoidant personality disorder, which, y'know, is also not healthy. But maybe less dangerous? Certainly less dangerous for people around me, because now I have almost no people around me ever, hooray.

protecting boundaries is something I have to work hard on, and for me that involves a lot of rehearsal and preparation.

An example: working in retail during the pandemic, I refused to let anyone enter my shop without a mask or an exemption lanyard, and they absolutely had to respect social distancing and keep their mask on, as well as our store/sector-specific guidelines. I was not prepared to risk my or my staff's health so someone can feel slightly more comfortable when we didn't have the choice of staying at home.

The night before re-opening, the end of furlough, I practised out-loud in a mirror saying "I'm going to need you to take a step back." "I'm going to need you to put a mask on." "I'm going to need you to wait outside as we are at our capacity limit." I did this enough times that I could hear my own voice saying it, and how to sound warm and polite, yet assertive and unmovable, ensuring my language and demeanour suggested all this was non-negotionable and also so obvious as to be undeniable. I found this strategy really worked for me, and I encouraged my staff to employ it too, and we had very little pushback on it, thankfully.

But in my everyday life, if I'm not mentally prepared or expecting an encroachment on a boundary I want to maintain, I find it very hard to react quickly and confidently in that moment. If I'm surprised or horrified I find it hard to affirm those limits, and I wish I was better at responding in the moment. I think part of this is not being 100% confident in what my boundaries are and what crossing them will look like. What strategies can I develop around this?

i'm a gay man who was raised in a very patriarchal and homophobic church

omg and speaking of boundaries ... said homophobic church also sucks at respecting the boundary of "I am no longer a member of your church. Please leave me the fuck alone!" ...my ex spent years trying to get them to leave him alone. ... they would send missionaries and church elders to our apartment at like 8am on a Saturday morning.

Anyway, I am glad, map, that you survived.

my ex had some boundaries that were like emil.y's moat of alligators, and that shitty church was part of the reason why

xp aw thanks :) you know, i suspect that in your ex's case, family members may have been playing a part. i've heard it tends to become a problem because the church is obsessed with tracking people and if you have family members letting them know where you have moved to, the harassment never ends. the way i got my name removed from their records was through a lawyer doing pro bono work - iirc, there was language included that stipulated if they were to try contacting me again, there would be legal action. i think that flips a few switches to 'off' internally. anyway, i've never had them try to reach me again, and it's been almost 10 years.

yeah i pretty much classify being raised in these kind of cultlike "churches" (including american evangelism) as abuse.

The night before re-opening, the end of furlough, I practised out-loud in a mirror saying "I'm going to need you to take a step back." "I'm going to need you to put a mask on." "I'm going to need you to wait outside as we are at our capacity limit." I did this enough times that I could hear my own voice saying it, and how to sound warm and polite, yet assertive and unmovable, ensuring my language and demeanour suggested all this was non-negotionable and also so obvious as to be undeniable. I found this strategy really worked for me, and I encouraged my staff to employ it too, and we had very little pushback on it, thankfully.

At the very beginning of the pandemic I thought that grocery stores should have hired all the currently unemployed strip-club bouncers and stationed them at the doors to keep anti-mask fuckos out. But it probably would have erupted into a shooting war in several states.

Re the general topic of the thread, at first I thought it meant boundaries like "don't talk to me through the door when I'm in the bathroom," stuff like that. But it's clearly larger than that.

I've never had a hard time cutting people out of my life, honestly. In fact, it's been the easy option most of the time. My mom had five sisters, four of whom are still alive, and I don't talk to any of them, or my cousins either, for a variety of reasons. (She's not talking to most of them herself, so clearly it's inherited.) Some of them were nasty to my wife early in our marriage, others just brought nothing to the table, and I've kinda always thought, if we weren't related, would I be friends with you? If the answer's no, then so be it. Blood earns you nothing in my book. But I've also gotten pretty lucky in that my parents were never abusive in any way that registered with me - my dad was an asshole, but when I told him I didn't want to see him anymore (my parents divorced when I was 11 or so, and when I was about 16 or so I just stopped going to visit my dad on the weekends) he just said OK. We reconnected a few years later - I lived with him for a year or so after high school - and it was fine. Then we drifted apart again and that was fine, too. We weren't talking when he died, and that drove a wedge between me and my younger brother for a while (he'd stepped into the breach and become Daddy's favorite), but that didn't last. Now I talk to my brother a few times a year, and my mom a couple of times a month. And my brother hasn't talked to my mom in years, and she never asks me about him. So...we're all fucked up, but we're all good with it, I guess?

i posted this on the working from home thread a few days ago but it's something along the lines of this thread topic

I am currently "on vacation" ... I am not going anywhere but it's like, how do I say "I am taking this time to not work" ... anyway, so a client texts me saying they have a question about a thing and want to get my advice on the thing. I respond "I am on vacation." Client asks, "can I schedule a time to discuss when you are back from vacation?" ... I kinda don't grasp how "scheduling a work appointment" does not fall under the general category of "work" which is excluded from the current status of "taking this time to not work" ... I have not taken more than 3 days in a row off work since 2015. I don't want to get bitchy with clients I generally like, but ...

I saw that and thought the right approach probably would have been to reply to the first email with "I'm on vacation - email me about this on [day you're planning on being back from vacation]" and then *ignore any subsequent emails*.

this was my response to the two clients that emailed me today! thank you ILX

i have gotten really good at establishing work boundaries even though i work in one of the most boundariless industries of all time, i’m lucky in that my attitude is reflected by my boss, who also doesn’t want me to think about work at all when i’m not working. but i’m also very lazy and a great way for me to feel miserable is to feel like my job is taking up too much of my time and attention, and jobs that have forced me into this position have been short-lived. moreover we must embrace the four-hour workday, etc.

boundaries with family are a lot more fluid which can suck, but again, i’m very lucky, no one i regularly talk to (mom, dad, stepdad) is much of a boundary overstepper. i can’t remember the last time i had a friend who did either. maybe i have good boundaries, i’m just unconscious of them most of the time??? i also think some of my boundaries are trauma-produced, like the moment i feel like a relationship is getting anywhere close to passive aggression or shame-based verbal abuse i’m just out, goodbye

i suck very bad at communication and i’m very conflict-avoidant though

i have gotten really good at establishing work boundaries even though i work in one of the most boundariless industries of all time

part of me wants to collectively determine which the most boundariless industries are, but the better me feels like that would lead to harmful conflicts.

tbf every industry i can think of has godawful work/life boundaries lol

^^^^^^^

A few years before my dad died I was visiting with my daughter - she was always feisty and headstrong and sometimes difficult to deal with but I'm allowed to say that, it was clear my dad had a huge problem with her and a lot of that problem was because she wasn't behaving like he thought a girl should. Dick. And something happened and he lost his rag and started having a go at her and when I told him to mind his business he actually fronted up to me, right up to my face and it was funny and heartbreaking and enraging in equal measure

And I walked out of there and we got the next train home and I would have never spoken to the cunt again and after a fortnight he had to swallow his pride and call me and apologise - probably at my mom's prodding - and I never had that kinda trouble off him again, hooray for setting a boundary

i think about my first ltr sometimes and how it ended in a painful way because i was just never able to straight up say "we aren't having sex as often as i would like" and proceed from there.

xp i feel like "do goodism" is a cover for boundary problems in the workplace. non profits, small businesses seem like a haven for them ime.

xxp yeah the real answer is "work, period"

God yeah non profits I've known encourage some absolutely terrible abuse of work/life balance

why i will never be in a "helping" role ever again. the only way i could establish effective boundaries was to quit.

hooray for setting a boundary

Yeah Han is not at all cuddly and it took me a while I guess to figure that out. Having said that she will still encourage me to scratch her feet if we're hanging at home

Oops boundaries soz

I built such an impenetrable boundary between me and my biological dad that I wouldn't even visit him when he was dying of throat cancer because fuck it lol I was watching a 2nd leg playoff game in the pub. My mum didn't put any pressure on me to visit him but did suggest I might regret it when he's gone, but I didn't. I don't know if this is an interpretation of boundaries in the spirit of this thread, but sometimes I believe they are often a healthy way of avoiding unnecessary conflict and unhappiness because there is already plenty enough of that shit to go around.

at my old job I would have to deal with kids a lot. One of my methods for building rapport and trust before what can seem scary to kids is to offer a high-five, and ask some questions about school or anything they had with them eg what games were they playing on the DS. But any kid has the right to say "I don't want a high-five" or not answer questions from a stranger, and that's fine, it doesn't bother me: ultimately my goal was to make the experience easy and pleasant for the kid where possible.

The amount of parents and grandparents who would chastise their kids for not wanting to do a high-five was unreal. I would instantly say "it's up to them, I don't mind!" and yet they would insist. I can't play along with that because it's not fair to anyone. The way we teach kids about consent and permission can be so unreal - you must go high-five the stranger in the shop, or hug your smelly uncle, or play with the neighbourhood kid who pulls your hair... and then we wonder why people struggle to say No at the moment necessary.

Huge otm

Shit dads can fuck off, even if they're dead. And in my experience you don't regret putting that boundary in place (in my situation I am glad I met up with him once before he died but also glad I didn't try to do so more frequently, fuck that noise). Solidarity to everyone in the shit dead dad crew.

tbf every industry i can think of has godawful work/life boundaries lol

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, December 29, 2021 11:23 AM (twenty-three minutes ago)

this is apparently one of the appealing factors of civil service for some people. There are plenty of people employed in bureaucratic government jobs that show up, punch the clock, do their tasks, get a generous amount of flex time and paid time off, and leave on time. for a while when I was growing up, my mom was a mail carrier. She went in, sorted the mail, put it in her vehicle, delivered the mail, dropped off the undeliverables at the post office, went home. People on her mail route did not call her at home. Her supervisor didn't call her on her days off.

I mean ffs the unspoken belief in children as property without agency is still so widespread

Pepper spray.

After trying to be gentle and sensitive for a bit, eventually I told an ex: "I DON'T LIKE YOU AS A PERSON DON'T CALL ME ANYMORE" and hung up on them. That did it.

don't know how people can carry on with this odd, borderline psychotic, entitlement to be in other people's space. I'm very much a stay-in-my-own-zone kind of person, if I even get the slightest hint that someone doesn't want to talk to me I will back off immediately and probably never engage with them again, or at least give it a few years! But showing up on people's doorsteps and imposing yourself on ppl who are not close or even comfortable with your presence is completely fucked up behaviour.

it must be terrible for their own self-esteem as well as the victim

I think some people just don't like to be the " bad guy" so to speak and want to have everything wrapped up in a little bow. he has this idea we can be friends. I can't see loving him as a friend, for the foreseeable future. I think it's foolish to try to push us in that direction. we should not absolve ourselves of the pain we caused each other.

I love this person and hold so many sentiments of love for them but I just want the messiness to end.

my friend named him "Mr. five star"

back to the drawing board

I had an ex like this, where we didn't have a bad relationship, but we were a bad fit and we broke up and like a day later she was saying she was upset that I didn't see more upset by the breakup and kept texting me "I still miss u" (even though she initiated the breakup, I just didn't protest much). and one day I said "Please leave me alone. I told you I don't want to get back together, and none of these 11 pm text messages are going to change that, and it's fucked to keep trying to guilt me into it". and she went dead silent...for two weeks, until she asked ot hang out and said she might kill herself soon.

i actually accepted that time but kept a big distance, said we were just friends, and offered support from a big distance. then never saw her again. she's married now and I'm legit happy she found someone that's right for her.

but sometimes you gotta be the bad cop in those situations, when the politeness doesn't take.

calzino also otm, like the easiest way to get me to go away is just give the slightest hint that I bother you. I disappeared for like two years from this place due to that.

(there, now you all know how to get rid of me, get to it)

The kind of behavior being described here is boldly manipulative. And not ok. Next step is them getting mad and casting themselves as a victim DARVO-style. We all have exhibited problematic behavior at some point in our lives, I’m sure, no one is perfect, but it does help to be able to identify/recognize manipulation if you’re aiming to maintain a boundary that you set.

it is, for sure.

lmao...so mom took i to initiative today and started resuming driving Uber Eats after a several year absence. awesome! and got herself a marathon gig to work! alright, we're cooking now.

then floats the idea 'OOOOH MAYBE I CAN DO SEVERAL DELIVERIES AT DINNER AND YOU CAN HELP ME WITH THEM'. (this being because she can't drive at night due to her glaucoma)

......

had to respond back to her for her to hear the absurdity - "so...to clarify...you want me to essentially get a second job, outright eliminating any free time I have to wind down after my actual job, one in which I won't get paid anything for? Or...just maybe...you could do this during the day, while I'm working?". it was immediately dropped after I phrased it that way.

i swear.

(she probably wants this as Dad used to help her years ago before his stroke, but Dad was the type of guy who would sacrifice all of himself for his family, and that's probably one reason he wound up wearing down so fast).

-i to

i just want to cry.

so after the above, she does one more Uber Eats shift, but then signs up for a pretty lucrative gig at her job working a marathon. her friend does a GoFundMe for her and it raises a ton. but her friend didn't put her banking info in, so the money took over a week to get there. Mom asked me to borrow money to pay for things until the GoFundMe money arrived over the period of a week, and the amount she got was significantly above the amount I loaned ($500). because I'm an idiot and thought even she wouldn't fuck this up, with a gig on top of it.

Saturday night, in typical fashion, she tells me she's giving up the gig on Sunday as her knees don't feel well. I had to go to a movie shoot 2 hours away an hour after she told me, but she promised she'd pick up another, and I reluctantly said "whatever", because she still had enough to pay me back, and I'd stay on her to get another gig.

yesterday, she gives me $150 and I say thanks and, as she asked me to do, I tell her that leaves $350, and she gets this look of....."I owe you $350?", and starts reciting the charges she remembers, which....was $200 short of what it actually was. I had it all noted in Venmo so I shared w/ her that, no, $350 is accurate. And she kinda gives a non-committal response.

I thought she'd only received some of her GoFundMe money, which is why the partial payment. I found out today she's gotten all but $100 of it. and she no longer has enough to repay me in her bank account. she didn't bother to make sure she'd actually be able to repay me when factoring in her bills, and did things she could have waited until after her social security arrived (oil + filter change), overspent at the grocery store (which I paid half of, but still). I'm going to be holding the bag again.

last night, my gambling addiction, which has come back, largely inspired by 'trying to make money quick', and I blew $300.

I just want to crawl in a hole. I know this is my fault and don't need to be reminded, but I am supposed to be going on an out of town trip tonight and taking a little mini vacay this week, and now I no longer want to do any of it. I hate my life. I hate constantly being surrounded by people , blood or otherwise, that respect me so little that they only care about how much they can use me. I hate that I'm going to have to ruin my week off by now confronting (and probably screaming at) mom for how fucked up it is that she borrowed money from me on the pretext that she was just waiting for her GoFundMe, then pocketed that money too. the me time I was looking so forward to is trashed.

fuck all of this shit. when Dad was alive, he kept a lot of her tendencies at bay, but now I'm bearing the full brunt of them. my life is ruined and I'm only 43.

and for the record, previous come to jesus moments worked for ten minutes, involved me breaking down into a ball and crying, only for her to keep on doing it anyway. next step = threatening to move out.

at the very least I can't have my living situation tied to this bullshit.

I’m so sorry 😞

This is just a thought and may not be helpful. You could ask the courts to appoint a conservator for your mom. It's not as drastic as a full guardianship, but it effectively takes control of her financial matters out of her hands. If you are willing to accept the appointment it's probable the court would do that.

I know it sounds drastic and it is, but it may have reached a point where drastic is the only path by which you can save your mom and yourself from her improvidence and irresponsibility. A lawyer could give you some guidance around the viability of this idea, but with your own financial bind I doubt you'd be eager to take this approach unless it felt utterly necessary. Anyway, good wishes and good luck.

Yeah, that sounds like a mess, Neanderthal - take care of yourself first and foremost. Maybe you can still do a scaled-down mini vacation, but do whatever you need to preserve your sanity

yeah, and honestly man, for your own sake, i just need to say something i have been wanting to say but have held back on:

you do not “owe” your mom anything, especially as it is totally apparent that she is willfully and even maliciously taking advantage of you. move out. you don’t deserve this and she doesn’t deserve you.

I know you’ve mentioned before that she’s asked you to take control of her finances but you felt like she should be responsible - and I agree, but my other advice is to cut her off and I know you can’t do that. Taking over her finances will at least give you control. At this point, it really seems like your only viable option. This stress is killing you and it can’t continue indefinitely. You’ve got put a boundary in place that actually works, and what you have currently is not working at all. A real boundary is something that you have complete control of - telling your mum she can’t keep doing this… or what? You’ll let her become homeless or starve or whatever other consequences she’ll have to face as a result of her own lack of accountability or care for your wellbeing? Realistically, you would never be able to let that happen. If you are in control of her finances than she can’t spend money she doesn’t have.

I’m also concerned about the gambling addiction. Her financial demands on you may have triggered a relapse but they aren’t what’s actually responsible for the addiction itself. I would suggest you ask yourself if her putting you in a position where you tell yourself that gambling feels like a desperate attempt to regain footing is actually true or a way to justify the gambling. As long as your mum is burning through your money you have a reason to act out in really risky ways that feed your addiction. I’m not being harsh to be an asshole - I just want you to see your situation as clearly as possible so you can make decisions that work for YOU.

I know this is an incredibly hard situation - your parents have put this burden on you your whole life, I can’t imagine what that’s like or what effect it’s had. Financial stress literally kills people and I don’t want to see that happen to you. You’re a good guy and you have a good heart.

<3

Finally sent an email I was dreading, stepping down from a publishing project that I was asked to eventually "take over" from a collaborator. I am working two (and once late August hits, three) jobs on top of full-time library school, and simply do not have the time for another project in which I am not totally invested and totally on-board aesthetically speaking.

Felt a weight lift once I sent it. Of course a probably difficult conversation lies in the future, but I can deal with that.

I love "no", it's my favourite word tbh. Great work tabes

But what do you do if you have boundaries that are actively damaging you? I don't like talking one on one to people, but I feel better if I do. I'm about as likely to do so on my own as I am to walk through a tree, but if I allow someone to force their way through my boundary it will help me but encourage them to hurt others.

I guess it depends what someone forcing their way through a boundary looks like. If your boundary is actively damaging, but you’re worried about encouraging bad behaviour, not acting doesn’t change anything and it sounds like you’re unhappy about yours.

Which I guess is to say, sometimes getting out of your comfort zone is really difficult and can really put you out of order but if it’s for something you deem worthwhile then sometimes you have to push through it.

Christine, is this a professional situation or a personal one or … a general thing? I forget whether this is the thread where emil.y and I discussed having a “moat of alligators” in terms of boundaries. But, it is a flipside to having too few boundaries or not enforcing them.

In my current job, I get tested a lot. Based on what you’ve said about your work, it sounds like you also have a lot of intense emotional demands placed on you. It’s hard when you really want to help someone and solve their problems but there’s only so much you (often as a result of the systems and hoops our society has put in place) can do.

Bump so I can gather my thoughts about this.

Idk if I've said this elsewhere but I went to an "author discusses their new book" thing and the author (Prentis Hemphill btw) said "Boundaries are the distance between us that lets me love you, and love myself, at the same time." (I might be paraphrasing, it was months ago.)

That felt like someone had opened a door in my brain and I can't stop thinking about it ever since. If I move a boundary too far, I do too much for you (give love, give whatever), and I hurt myself because I'm over-extended and my needs aren't attended to. Or the opposite, I protect myself (love myself) too much and hold you very far away which negates our connection? doesn't attend to your needs/wants.

Some people TAKE so much, I need a different boundary for that than for someone who is respectful and attentive. It's so obvious.

But what do you do if you have boundaries that are actively damaging you? I don't like talking one on one to people, but I feel better if I do. I'm about as likely to do so on my own as I am to walk through a tree, but if I allow someone to force their way through my boundary it will help me but encourage them to hurt others.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo

I think "comfort levels" are different from how the concept of boundaries is meant in therapeutic circles? In therapy-speak a boundary is specifically a thing that you express to another person that has to include a thing that you're asking them to do, or not do, and a notification of what your response will be. "If you do that again, I will leave." "If you don't treat me the way I asked you to, we will not have a relationship."

It's been a month so I guess I'll share my perspective.

I've been diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. One of the challenges for me with that is avoiding all-or-nothing thinking. I'm trying to develop porous boundaries, a sort of semi-permeable membrane. It's challenging.

First off, being able to enforce good boundaries isn't _entirely_ a self-directed act. I have a boss, for instance, who does not respect her employees' personal or professional boundaries. Having healthy boundaries, for me, means getting out of that current work environment. That's a long-term goal I have to balance with the short-term goal of, well, surviving. I literally wound up in the ER on Friday in large part due to the stress I face at work. (I'm fine. It was just an unusually severe panic attack. After a couple hours my heartrate was back within the normal range and they discharged me.)

In other words, boundaries only help us if we have the power to enforce them. When I can't enforce my own boundaries, I take alternative, less effective actions to keep myself safe. This can include avoiding situations that would be helpful to me out of fear of being hurt. It can also include making unhealthy emotional demands on other people. Now, that's a really fucking difficult thing for me to diagnose. I think a lot about that REM line - "Oh no I said too much, I haven't said enough". I seem to often find myself on one side or the other of that equation, and for the exact same reasons.

I also have to tolerate that... I'm not going to be able to perform up to the standards I'd like. I'm not going to be able to take care of myself as well as I'd like, because I'm in this really toxic situation. I'm working to get out of that situation, but that's not immediate. I don't have complete control over that. I'm working to exercise the control I do have, but it's incredibly fucking hard. It's very hard for me to be kind to myself when someone who actively has power over me is _not_ being kind, compassionate, or respectful towards me. It's very hard to talk about that, knowing that I am choosing to continue to stay in that situation, knowing I have very good reasons for staying in that situation. That for now, it's the best decision.

Never mind. (I need to start learning my lesson about putting off replying to posts.)

well, i'm always glad to hear from you, even if you decide not to say a lot of the stuff you were thinking of saying :)

I'll go ahead and post it, then.

I have no problem with telling people no, in fact, I think I tell people no too often for my own good. Having people respect my boundaries doesn't make me feel any less nervous about dealing with people, and it gives folx a vulnerability that they can use against me. I also am really not the best judge for knowing what is the best for me.

That last thing must make you super anxious… I have felt that way in the past and it can be immobilizing. … I hope you can feel more comfortable and confident at some point

Unfortunately, the last time I was comfortable and confident, my husband lost his Medicaid because of my procrastination, I lost the chance to negotiate the bill for my ER stay before it went into collections because of my procrastination, my van almost broke down because I didn't check the fluids for a while, and the garbage in the can had to be divided into two bags in order to be carried down to the dumpster. I wish I could be both happy and capable of taking care of myself at the same time, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen in this lifetime.

I have no problem with telling people no, in fact, I think I tell people no too often for my own good. Having people respect my boundaries doesn't make me feel any less nervous about dealing with people, and it gives folx a vulnerability that they can use against me. I also am really not the best judge for knowing what is the best for me.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo

that's really super relatable. i have that problem a lot too. i'm really defensive and i say "no" a lot. i also have a hard time trusting my own judgement. i know in theory that i am the best judge of what's best for me, that nobody can know what's best for me better than i can, but i'm not always right. i make mistakes sometimes. and i worry about facing disproportionate consequences for those mistakes. idk if that's anything like what you experience, but that's what i'm going through right now.

What I'm saying is that I become slipshod and thoughtless when I'm confident with myself.

Unfortunately, the last time I was comfortable and confident, my husband lost his Medicaid because of my procrastination, I lost the chance to negotiate the bill for my ER stay before it went into collections because of my procrastination, my van almost broke down because I didn't check the fluids for a while, and the garbage in the can had to be divided into two bags in order to be carried down to the dumpster. I wish I could be both happy and capable of taking care of myself at the same time, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen in this lifetime.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo

FUCK yes it's those fucking hard compromises, it's doing everything one can and it still winding up not being good enough. this past week, i got a lien on my car and it's going to auction because i was too stressed to figure out how to take care of it. i haven't been able to figure out how to get tested for colon cancer and i wound up so worried about bleeding that i wound up in the ER Friday evening because I was afraid I had serious health issues. (It was just a severe panic attack). my eggs keep going bad in the fridge because i don't have the energy to cook with them. i feel socially isolated because i didn't get around to making social plans with anyone this week. my boss keeps threatening to write me up because i'm not meeting my goals. it just seems like it never stops.

and i know intellectually it's not because i was confident in myself, it's because a lot of times we have unreasonable expectations placed on us, and we get blamed for not meeting those unreasonable expectations. because sometimes a person is expected to do everything by oneself without ever needing help, and if a person can't do that they get treated as a failure. i got told, you know, when i do all my work, _then_ i can relax and enjoy myself, but i never actually get everything done. there's always something else. usually too many other things to count.

i don't know your situation, but from what you say, it sounds like you are also being held to unreasonable expectations. it's hard to feel good, to feel happy, to feel comfortable and confident, when it seems like something's always on fire, and it always seems like there's something else one could have done, an easier way. and i don't. i don't feel comfortable or confident. i don't feel happy. i'm doing my best, though. i know there's nothing wrong with me. i get the impression you're doing your best too, and that there's nothing wrong with you, either. it really doesn't seem to me like you being confident is causing all of the bad things to happen.

One reason why I cannot stand people intermingling their checks at bars/restaurants w mine....

Got asked by a friend if I could spot them a few drinks today until they got paid. Said "sure". Then they went inside, ordered a $20 meal, put it on my tab, then told me "I thought you were covering me today" when I asked if they were gonna pay me.

I've been paying for all of my mom's expenses for weeks because she ran out of money earlier than planned...so it's not like I'm cheap, but taking advantage of me using my card for our tab and going beyond what I agreed to and intentionally violating a boundary just makes me feel so disrespected and I really just did not have the energy to have to call them out like I had to today.

Yeah that’s incredibly selfish of them. You are in the right.

We just got in a fun little fight over it. Yay merry Christmas

I'm probably going to have a fatal heart attack before I turn 50 at this point

Neando you recognize that financial abuse is real right?

That’s not me being flippant — I genuinely see the way your mother (and occasional friend) treats you and it’s abusive.

need to drop or greatly minimize going out to social events if those kind of friends/acquaintances are taking advantage of you. obviously harder with family members. like - there's certain social behavior i'll brush aside when you're still relatively young. but if you're pushing 35 plus and taking advantage of people in those kind of situations i'm sorry but i don't have time for that anymore.

Not flippant at all, LL, you're correct.

As we get close to when this lease expires and I'm not inextricably linked with mom anymore, I'm going to suggest she find a friend who is willing to take her in rent free...or close. And I will move on to my own place.

Regarding social activities, I had become a bit of a hermit outside of concerts, but this last two weeks wound up with an unusual amount of social commitments and it's on me that I didn't say no to more of them.

I just don't stick up for myself well because I don't respect myself.

I'm ok now tonight after I had my mini meltdown but I gotta get back to therapy in Jan

you're a confident poster Neanderthal! (much more confident than I am), and I think you do respect yourself. I like your very big sense of empathy

Wish you the best in the new year and beyond. Everyone deserves better than what you’re describing.

Neando, you might benefit to have some go-to phrases handy to decline if someone asks you to spot them some cash or something - “money’s been tight this week” “waiting for a paycheck to clear,” etc. A way to avoid the unpleasantness of what you describe. Or even to do a non-monetary favor. “Would love to give you a ride, but Ive been having a rough week/feeling stressed lately and I’m trying to lay low at the moment.” Having a sense of you as a highly scrupulous person who holds yourself to high standards, I can relate to the idea that you want to be as giving as you can be, and honest, and that you might be hard on yourself to hold back or deploy white lies. But there is nothing to feel guilty about for protecting your own hard-earned time, money, or energy to allocate to your own needs

It sounds like the thing with your friend (unless they have a habit of this behavior) made you flip out mostly because of what’s going on with your mom. Like, my instinct was you were hoping this hangout with your friend would make you feel better and less hermitty and distract you from the frustrations you are experiencing with your mom and your job. … But then your friend does something that triggers the shit you were trying to escape by hanging out with them.

Idk a significant part of friendship is trust and goodwill… which is a two-sided thing. Like I don’t see your friend’s behavior as inherently shitty (based on what you’ve said)… but the context of what you have been dealing with made it shitty.

My advice is not to isolate from your friends because of this one thing.

This is really good advice. I got a friend who's dealing with the fallout from her parents' financial abuse and it's not pretty. Most people in this world aren't going to treat you like your mom does. (That one's from Kate's list of "advice I regularly give other people that I should really consider taking myself".)

yeah we're still ok the friend and I, she actually said "I feel like you're reacting to something more than just me here", which was true. we wound up having a much better evening after that lil emotional bloodletting