which American obsession is the worst?

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Poll Results

OptionVotes
America itself (yuk yuk) 20
Just cops 19
Other 12
Trump 7
Elon 3
Fake stories of cops "ODing" on fentanyl 3


Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:18 (two years ago)

masculinity

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:18 (two years ago)

American "exceptionalism"

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:21 (two years ago)

Xpost truth bomb

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:21 (two years ago)

it's always blown my mind how many American kids shows played school bullying for laughs, back in the days when i watched stuff because my kids were into it, and if that isn't toxic masculinity writ ENORMOUS i dunno what is

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:24 (two years ago)

I didn't react v well to that as a kid because I was the one getting bullied.

Like all those episodes where Urkel got locked inside his locker. In my high school choir, the seniors used to do that as hazing for Freshmen. We'd rehearse in the Color Guard room and three of em would grab a freshman and throw them in the storage closet and lock em in

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:30 (two years ago)

yeah and tho we never got Family Matters could say the same for an infinite number of other Disneyesque kids shows and there is never any meaningful consequence, the shit is treated as some kind of law of nature

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:32 (two years ago)

i mean Rugged Individualism etc etc

there's no correct answer to this, lol it's an ilx thread etc, but i seriously think a kind of worship of Masculine Aggression might be the defining characteristic of US culture even allowing for its omnipresence in most other places

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:34 (two years ago)

xp in my freshmen year i was also terrified of it. i used the common move of the picked on, which is to accept the criticism and take it a step further as a joke, preemptively. i stepped into the locker and then closed it on myself

Karl Malone, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:35 (two years ago)

imaginary grievances

Andy the Grasshopper, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:35 (two years ago)

poll options are a very online concept of what americans are obsessed with. i'm guessing like 0.01% of americans have any real feelings about elon musk one way or another

na (NA), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:38 (two years ago)

would also contest the idea that masculinity is a uniquely american obsession

na (NA), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:39 (two years ago)

i tried to give it some nuance there, absolutely it's not uniquely American, i do think that the presence in pop culture and self-image is worth talking shit about tho?

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:40 (two years ago)

oreos, they're just shitty bourbon creams

Camaraderie at Arms Length, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:40 (two years ago)

i've watched a bunch of junk from all over the world and "lol bullies" does seem to have a certain American connection to me

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:41 (two years ago)

re: exceptionalism

i was thinking about something along these lines this morning. i was thinking about how usamericans think of usa as the center of the world, and usa traditions as "normal". this is not in and of itself weird to me. in my experience, iranians think of iran as the center of the world (their world anyway), and their own traditions as normal. i think everyone in the world probably does this. part of the experience of being human, really. my sense about usamericans though is that a lot of them have a hard time remembering that everyone thinks of their own country (and not usa) as the center.

the late great, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:42 (two years ago)

Dennis the Menace has been de-bullified in the UK for ages but yeah good shout, the Beano has been very peripheral for decades here too

mind was blown when i found out American Dennis was a crossover from the UK one tho

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:42 (two years ago)

xp off-topic but if it weren't for the ubiquity of "oreos" in crosswords, i have to think oreos would have been discontinued many years ago. same with "epees" in fencing. clearly outdated and ready for replacement, but ultimately too important for crosswords

Karl Malone, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:43 (two years ago)

as a US crossword fan, lol

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:43 (two years ago)

you know it's true! the only thing keeping oreos afloat is Big Crossword

Karl Malone, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:47 (two years ago)

which American ILX obsession is the worst

Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:48 (two years ago)

that 1 inch gap between the toilet cubicle door and the adjacent panel its hinges are on

nashwan, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:48 (two years ago)

i mean i don't really eat them but i fill that clue in all the time so yes

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:49 (two years ago)

in fact i'm fully impressed at the sheer number of different ways you can clue OREO

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:50 (two years ago)

nashwan that kind of came out of nowhere but it hit me hard all the same. that gap is one of the essential images of anxious nightmares

Karl Malone, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:51 (two years ago)

my sense about usamericans though is that a lot of them have a hard time remembering that everyone thinks of their own country (and not usa) as the center.

I think it goes beyond that for many people in this country. They struggle to think of other countries as having their own perspectives, or having anything of value to contribute, or even existing at all

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:51 (two years ago)

is this partly because US culture - TV shows especially - get more widespread than other countries so you get to cringe more at the lol stereotypes that every country wallows in?

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:52 (two years ago)

Karl I swear nowhere else in the world does it.

nashwan, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:52 (two years ago)

all the worst Simpsons bits are "lol you backwards hicks"

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:53 (two years ago)

on the other hand BLOOD SAUSAGE is still pretty funny

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:54 (two years ago)

I guess it's not the hinge side though but the lock side my bad (it's really hard thinking about this door design rationally).

nashwan, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:54 (two years ago)

Sentimentality.

Gulf VAR Syndrome (Tom D.), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:54 (two years ago)

nashwan you're just confusing the issue i can't do architecture on a friday night

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:55 (two years ago)

I was impressed with US plumbing generally though on my last visit. And another thing look I'm not obsessed with toilets please don't put in the paper that I am.

nashwan, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:55 (two years ago)

sentimentality? = all Celts, most Brits, Portuguese have a magic word for that shit

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:55 (two years ago)

Kind of feel like "America itself" covers Trump's popularity and a good deal of US cop culture.

emil.y, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:56 (two years ago)

all the worst Simpsons bits are "lol you backwards hicks"

Bleeding Gums Murphy says "u wrong."

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 16 December 2022 18:57 (two years ago)

They struggle to think of other countries ... even existing at all

tbf for some americans it's nothing but america for 1000+ miles in every direction

the late great, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:59 (two years ago)

usamericans*

the late great, Friday, 16 December 2022 18:59 (two years ago)

Aimless you make an unimpeachable point

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 19:09 (two years ago)

Alcoholism

ian, Friday, 16 December 2022 19:11 (two years ago)

join the queue pal

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 19:12 (two years ago)

LOL indeed

Gulf VAR Syndrome (Tom D.), Friday, 16 December 2022 19:12 (two years ago)

is the boring answer the unique and self-dishonest totem of FREEDOM?

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 19:15 (two years ago)

that 1 inch gap between the toilet cubicle door and the adjacent panel its hinges are on

― nashwan, Friday, December 16, 2022 1:48 PM bookmarkflaglink

not even kidding, but when I was still office-bound and on the 4th floor, there was apparently a shy-pooper who was really hyper-anxious about this. I've heard of people hanging toilet paper to cover the little gap, but someone was actually making outright gigantic origami flowers with the toilet paper and hanging it over the gap, and not just in one stall, multiple stalls.

I one-time half jokingly asked on the company's digital bulletin board who was doing that, as it was wasting toilet paper, and the admin deleted my post because they thought I was making it up.

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Friday, 16 December 2022 19:17 (two years ago)

lol shartcrame

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2022 19:17 (two years ago)

xp it was the admin obv

the late great, Friday, 16 December 2022 19:17 (two years ago)

Star Wars

Whiney G. Weingarten, Friday, 16 December 2022 19:21 (two years ago)

I voted cops, just cops. Is any other nation so obsessed with them that they voluntarily buy and display special flags just to show their support of cops?

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 16 December 2022 19:22 (two years ago)

I assume that thought with people like Maddow was that now that Trump has been removed from his role as President American can return to its role as police force, not that his ability to be President indicates why they should never be seen in that role. Is the role of US as supposedly neutral force able to step into a role like that widespread in the US.
I mean quite apart from the dodgy parts of history as to the roots of the police force in the US which should call for a major rethink of the idea of a police force anyway. Problem with the idea of police force is that it expects humans who do have inherent biases to be free enough from them that they should be able to enforce laws which themselves are not without bias etc etc. Zinn talked about the US going against agreements that had been signed with the rest of the Americas about interference in the first place, like back when they started making concentrated efforts to do so. But I'm sure taht has beenn said several times in different writers work.

The myth of neutrality would be a big one. Not just a powerful country looking out for its own interests in other people's resources.
I need to look further into the idea of democracy as it has been taken up in the 20th Century since the Greek original did have inherent exclusion as a major part of the balance of things.
Amorphous panaceac grails that the country has been trying to enforce like 'democracy', 'war on drugs','smashing terrorism' etc etc.
Reminds me of King Leopold creating a hell on earth in the Congo supposedly in the name of ending slavery. Concepts can be dangerous tools if used by the wrong people and tend to attract the wrong people inherently, like.

Stevolende, Sunday, 18 December 2022 13:30 (two years ago)

Belgian exceptionalism is being fine with having fucking statues of that piece of shit all over the place

your original display name is still visible (Left), Sunday, 18 December 2022 13:52 (two years ago)

US Liberals repping for their cuddly vision of colonialism is just what Liberals do worldwide tbf

partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 18 December 2022 14:19 (two years ago)

Is there any reason the worst American obsession couldn’t conceivably be a thing that also exists in other countries

pilk/pall revolting odors (wins), Sunday, 18 December 2022 14:29 (two years ago)

it’s part of a weird american obeisance to anyone in a uniform


Expand “cops” to this and it’s a good shout imo, we were talking in that American things thread about the batshit “thank you for your service” thing & how you’d assume it’d be limited to maga freedom fries ppl but seems to just be a widespread thing in general over there

pilk/pall revolting odors (wins), Sunday, 18 December 2022 14:31 (two years ago)

possibly that the 2 alternatives given for politics are liberalism and conservatism which aren't as far apart on the spectrum as they themselves would suggest. I just read Zinn talking about the crushing of the idea of socialism both at home and abroad as part of that interference too.
& socialism has still apparently got a stigma as a term in the US 100 years later or whatever. Or certainly notably did a couple of years ago. I keep hearing references to Liberals siding with fascists in various talks recently, which hopefully does indicate a move away from stigmatising the left since voices from that side of the spectrum can now be heard on podcasts/webinars etc much more than they could be through more widespread media. Possibly would have been earlier if the technology had been there.

Stevolende, Sunday, 18 December 2022 14:38 (two years ago)

"Freedom," guns, American football

Cirque de Soleil Moon Frye (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 18 December 2022 15:26 (two years ago)

Pancakes and waffles.

Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 18 December 2022 15:34 (two years ago)

For American-specific obsessions, I'd say guns. The broader categories people are mentioning, like exceptionalism, are pretty universal.

Root cause: testosterone?

Hideous Lump, Sunday, 18 December 2022 17:25 (two years ago)

Someone mentioned "toxic masculinity" upthread--it's not exclusive to the United States but takes some especially virulent forms here. And one element of that is corporate mass media that feeds and flatters that mindset.

Infanta Terrible (j.lu), Monday, 19 December 2022 01:18 (two years ago)

Abortions

fetter, Monday, 19 December 2022 13:54 (two years ago)

as in banning/suppressing/moralising over them or...?

xp there does seem to be something about settler societies and machismo (see also s america, australia, israel, white african colonies) I assume several books and theses have been written about this - obviously it's derived from attitudes and premises widely accepted in european cultures but it seems to take on weird new intensities outside the mother country

your original display name is still visible (Left), Monday, 19 December 2022 14:39 (two years ago)

Football, but voting "America itself" since it pretty well covers all

عباس کیارستمی (Eric H.), Monday, 19 December 2022 15:10 (two years ago)

I'm hoping to get to read Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz's book on the history of Settler Colonialism before long. Not A Nation of Immigrants .
The other books, webinars and podcasts I've read/heard by her have been great. Have been meaning to read this since it came out last year

Stevolende, Monday, 19 December 2022 15:17 (two years ago)

me too i've heard good things

Left, Monday, 19 December 2022 15:19 (two years ago)

as in banning/suppressing/moralising over them or...?

xp there does seem to be something about settler societies and machismo (see also s america, australia, israel, white african colonies) I assume several books and theses have been written about this - obviously it's derived from attitudes and premises widely accepted in european cultures but it seems to take on weird new intensities outside the mother country

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Monday, December 19, 2022 2:39 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

there was some tweet that philosophy twitter personality liam bright retweeted that basically posted that european colonialism was born out of an inferiority complex because europe was so backwater compared to the arab world and china. oh yeah, it was summarizing a quote from anti-oedipus lol.

ꙮ (map), Monday, 19 December 2022 15:55 (two years ago)

the increasing intensity of toxic machismo / manhood insecurity also forms a rough topography in microcosm across the u.s. from east to west i think. though maybe there are too many exceptions, like the south, and texas, and ohio. sort of feel like the internet is to blame for the intensification of it in certain older places.

ꙮ (map), Monday, 19 December 2022 16:00 (two years ago)

I should try reading anti-oedipus again. it would also make sense to me if "oedipalization" (which I think D&G claim *is* colonialism at some point) requires more extreme methods in the colonies due to the relative lack of existing patriarchal structures to facilitate it compared to those long-established in the mother (/father) country. maybe that partly explains rural conservatism as well idk

your original display name is still visible (Left), Monday, 19 December 2022 17:43 (two years ago)

as far as I know we never had a "new british man" or a "muscular anglicanism" because why would we need them? I wouldn't rule it out in the future though

your original display name is still visible (Left), Monday, 19 December 2022 17:47 (two years ago)

LOL @ muscular Anglicanism

Gulf VAR Syndrome (Tom D.), Monday, 19 December 2022 18:00 (two years ago)

cuz every girl's crazy bout a new british man
*spins guitar*

“Cheeky cheeky!” she trills, nearly demolishing a roadside post (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 20 December 2022 01:46 (two years ago)

I should try reading anti-oedipus again. it would also make sense to me if "oedipalization" (which I think D&G claim *is* colonialism at some point) requires more extreme methods in the colonies due to the relative lack of existing patriarchal structures to facilitate it compared to those long-established in the mother (/father) country. maybe that partly explains rural conservatism as well idk

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Monday, December 19, 2022 5:43 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

the first 20 pages are rough but it gets easier from there iirc.

i wish i could find the tweet but generally feel like repressed libidinal desire and social psycho dynamics underpin colonialism but i never see anyone mention it these days.

ꙮ (map), Tuesday, 20 December 2022 02:25 (two years ago)

are d&g still out of fashion? desire is a great starting point for explaining a lot of things that americans especially love to be puritanical about imo. anyway just the ramble of a pot addled dilettante.

ꙮ (map), Tuesday, 20 December 2022 02:30 (two years ago)

i'd say my answer to this thread question is absolutely guns. just abysmal, truly evil & omnipresent.

ꙮ (map), Tuesday, 20 December 2022 02:31 (two years ago)

are d&g still out of fashion?
depends who you ask. probably compared to their peak? it's harder to impress by gratuitously dropping their jargon all over the place like people used to do. recent vogue for "materialism" has probably made them more *and* less popular with different crowds. i am late to the party with no academic baggage so i still find them exciting and illuminating and frustrating and all the stuff around desiring-production and libidinal whatevers feels pretty right not that i necessarily understand it or could explain it to a normal person

Left, Tuesday, 20 December 2022 09:38 (two years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

System, Friday, 30 December 2022 00:01 (two years ago)

I'll add to the guns pile.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 30 December 2022 10:21 (two years ago)

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

System, Saturday, 31 December 2022 00:01 (two years ago)

The broader categories people are mentioning, like exceptionalism, are pretty universal.

I think the late great's got a good point here though, that every country thinks they're the best but every country also understands that other countries all think that - America's difference is we think that but we think that you think that - Obama got a lot of shit for "I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism". A lower-wattage version of this is the stuff where a lot of Americans (not excluding all on this board) struggle a bit with the idea of other countries as actually different things, the "Perky 'Canada' Has Own Government, Laws" thing.

There's a thing with this, and the Rachel Maddow thing, where is this an example of something uniquely American or is it just what happens when you're the sole world power?

Andrew Farrell, Saturday, 31 December 2022 11:10 (two years ago)

I think imperial britain had somewhat similar views of itself and of others' views of itself

your original display name is still visible (Left), Saturday, 31 December 2022 17:19 (two years ago)

Undoubtedly and it lingers on too, Mother of Parliaments and all that shite.

Twa pehs an' an ingin ane an' aw (Tom D.), Saturday, 31 December 2022 17:32 (two years ago)

i think the american version of Exceptionalism is notable for how it got entangled with Christianity, Manifest Destiny, and later, Christian Zionism, and morphed into something violent and lasting. there are at least 40, 50 million people (+?) here that believe that the united states has been uniquely blessed and chosen by the christian god to lead the world and that we are destined to win the war against satan that leads to a millennium of heaven on earth with jesus on the throne. i think that is relevant to neoconservative and neoliberal missions to intervene and invade throughout the world, and it also had something to do with how many christians justified slavery.

however i think guns is also a very good answer

Karl Malone, Saturday, 31 December 2022 17:49 (two years ago)

it's always blown my mind how many American kids shows played school bullying for laughs, back in the days when i watched stuff because my kids were into it, and if that isn't toxic masculinity writ ENORMOUS i dunno what is

― partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, December 16, 2022 1:24 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

This really struck a chord with me, and it's something I had kind of never realized before. Movies were different for some reason - lots of movies where the protagonist gets bullied. But in sitcoms for some reason it was totally different, just like "Shut up, nerd!" *stuffs nerds face in toilet* *UPROARIOUS LAUGH TRACK*

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:04 (two years ago)

Related I think: I've noticed in American films from the 1930s through the 1960s at least, maybe into the '70s, that the male protagonist is not allowed to "win" unless and until he physically beats the shit out of his antagonist at some point. He is not a man, and therefore not qualified to be the hero, unless he demonstrates dominant physical prowess.

Josefa, Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:12 (two years ago)

Pretty much. Maybe The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is a notable exception? That was early 60s, so still within your timeline. Print the legend!

A Kestrel for a Neve (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:15 (two years ago)

Also YEARS OF REPRESSED RAGE from said bullying makes you a fighting machine.

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:15 (two years ago)

Cos god forbid you show them having to deal with it in therapy like the rest of us

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:16 (two years ago)

I remember the one time I got angry enough to throw down, my opponent knocked me over and sat on me and it was over in seconds

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:18 (two years ago)

I was the nerdy kid who would fight back and then get in trouble for that! Until I giae at up because I felt like I was fair game for older brothers who were back from the stir to join in if it got to heated and learned the manly art of crossing to the other side of the street or going around the block the other way.

A Kestrel for a Neve (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:18 (two years ago)

x-post to James: But that film acknowledges - to the viewer - that Stewart wasn't the real hero, it was Wayne, but for everyone else (not the viewer) it's good enough to pretend Stewart was the hero.

Josefa, Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:19 (two years ago)

In other words the paradigm is upheld

Josefa, Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:20 (two years ago)

Indeed.

A Kestrel for a Neve (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:30 (two years ago)

Michael Jordan and rings/champion/G.O.A.T. culture as a whole

Mr. Snrub, Sunday, 1 January 2023 07:04 (two years ago)

people have suggested that you, mr. snrub, are a decades-long dril-type phenomenon

this doesn't help clear things up at all, so, kudos

mookieproof, Sunday, 1 January 2023 07:12 (two years ago)

it's always blown my mind how many American kids shows played school bullying for laughs, back in the days when i watched stuff because my kids were into it, and if that isn't toxic masculinity writ ENORMOUS i dunno what is

― partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, December 16, 2022 1:24 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

This really struck a chord with me, and it's something I had kind of never realized before. Movies were different for some reason - lots of movies where the protagonist gets bullied. But in sitcoms for some reason it was totally different, just like "Shut up, nerd!" *stuffs nerds face in toilet* *UPROARIOUS LAUGH TRACK*

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:04 (eight hours ago) link

saved by the bell was kinda like that and it seems like maybe a lot of the Disney kid sitcoms of recent vintage are similar. Main characters who are kind of popular assholes, nerds on the margins as disrespected comic relief or regarded with disgust, etc. I watched SBTB a bit as a kid and it really always amazed me just how unlikable the main cast was.

omar little, Sunday, 1 January 2023 08:46 (two years ago)

Not familiar with the Disney shows, but I wouldn’t say that’s a norm.

A dad sitting down and talking to his son about how to deal with bullies was much more of a sitcom trope. In the 90s, TGIF era anyway.

circa1916, Sunday, 1 January 2023 15:15 (two years ago)

Saved by the Bell was kind of a weird one. Show about high schoolers directed at kids who were in grade school/middle school. Aspirational aspect to it.

circa1916, Sunday, 1 January 2023 15:34 (two years ago)

The dad sitting down and talking to his son about how to deal with bullies was much more of a sitcom trope in the 1950s, too. Generally it would be that the kid had to go ahead and fight the bully. The theory was that once the bully knew you weren't afraid, he'd back off. Unless you live inside a 50s sitcom, this doesn't work out very well most of the time, but that was the theory being pushed.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Sunday, 1 January 2023 19:03 (two years ago)

that's still the advice, i think. in avatar 2, there are several hundred scenes in which the youngest son disappoints his father. one of them involves a fight with some other kids. the father is disappointed, but then he asks him, slyly "what did the other guy look like?", confirms that his son did beat some bully ass, and then nods affirmatively before sending his son off to disappoint him greatly yet again

Karl Malone, Sunday, 1 January 2023 19:44 (two years ago)

It was a little weird when his dad asked him if he saw the ass on that one

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Sunday, 1 January 2023 19:51 (two years ago)


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