which American obsession is the worst?

masculinity

American "exceptionalism"

Xpost truth bomb

it's always blown my mind how many American kids shows played school bullying for laughs, back in the days when i watched stuff because my kids were into it, and if that isn't toxic masculinity writ ENORMOUS i dunno what is

I didn't react v well to that as a kid because I was the one getting bullied.

Like all those episodes where Urkel got locked inside his locker. In my high school choir, the seniors used to do that as hazing for Freshmen. We'd rehearse in the Color Guard room and three of em would grab a freshman and throw them in the storage closet and lock em in

yeah and tho we never got Family Matters could say the same for an infinite number of other Disneyesque kids shows and there is never any meaningful consequence, the shit is treated as some kind of law of nature

i mean Rugged Individualism etc etc

there's no correct answer to this, lol it's an ilx thread etc, but i seriously think a kind of worship of Masculine Aggression might be the defining characteristic of US culture even allowing for its omnipresence in most other places

xp in my freshmen year i was also terrified of it. i used the common move of the picked on, which is to accept the criticism and take it a step further as a joke, preemptively. i stepped into the locker and then closed it on myself

imaginary grievances

poll options are a very online concept of what americans are obsessed with. i'm guessing like 0.01% of americans have any real feelings about elon musk one way or another

would also contest the idea that masculinity is a uniquely american obsession

i tried to give it some nuance there, absolutely it's not uniquely American, i do think that the presence in pop culture and self-image is worth talking shit about tho?

oreos, they're just shitty bourbon creams

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Je_5nyi07S8/U7xV2oj7y0I/AAAAAAAAAPA/11f33s9HaCY/s1600/Dennis+the+Menace+and+Gnasher+Beano+2325+Feb+1987.jpg

i've watched a bunch of junk from all over the world and "lol bullies" does seem to have a certain American connection to me

re: exceptionalism

i was thinking about something along these lines this morning. i was thinking about how usamericans think of usa as the center of the world, and usa traditions as "normal". this is not in and of itself weird to me. in my experience, iranians think of iran as the center of the world (their world anyway), and their own traditions as normal. i think everyone in the world probably does this. part of the experience of being human, really. my sense about usamericans though is that a lot of them have a hard time remembering that everyone thinks of their own country (and not usa) as the center.

Dennis the Menace has been de-bullified in the UK for ages but yeah good shout, the Beano has been very peripheral for decades here too

mind was blown when i found out American Dennis was a crossover from the UK one tho

xp off-topic but if it weren't for the ubiquity of "oreos" in crosswords, i have to think oreos would have been discontinued many years ago. same with "epees" in fencing. clearly outdated and ready for replacement, but ultimately too important for crosswords

as a US crossword fan, lol

you know it's true! the only thing keeping oreos afloat is Big Crossword

which American ILX obsession is the worst

that 1 inch gap between the toilet cubicle door and the adjacent panel its hinges are on

i mean i don't really eat them but i fill that clue in all the time so yes

in fact i'm fully impressed at the sheer number of different ways you can clue OREO

nashwan that kind of came out of nowhere but it hit me hard all the same. that gap is one of the essential images of anxious nightmares

my sense about usamericans though is that a lot of them have a hard time remembering that everyone thinks of their own country (and not usa) as the center.

I think it goes beyond that for many people in this country. They struggle to think of other countries as having their own perspectives, or having anything of value to contribute, or even existing at all

is this partly because US culture - TV shows especially - get more widespread than other countries so you get to cringe more at the lol stereotypes that every country wallows in?

Karl I swear nowhere else in the world does it.

all the worst Simpsons bits are "lol you backwards hicks"

on the other hand BLOOD SAUSAGE is still pretty funny

I guess it's not the hinge side though but the lock side my bad (it's really hard thinking about this door design rationally).

Sentimentality.

nashwan you're just confusing the issue i can't do architecture on a friday night

I was impressed with US plumbing generally though on my last visit. And another thing look I'm not obsessed with toilets please don't put in the paper that I am.

sentimentality? = all Celts, most Brits, Portuguese have a magic word for that shit

Kind of feel like "America itself" covers Trump's popularity and a good deal of US cop culture.

all the worst Simpsons bits are "lol you backwards hicks"

Bleeding Gums Murphy says "u wrong."

They struggle to think of other countries ... even existing at all

tbf for some americans it's nothing but america for 1000+ miles in every direction

usamericans*

Aimless you make an unimpeachable point

Alcoholism

join the queue pal

LOL indeed

is the boring answer the unique and self-dishonest totem of FREEDOM?

that 1 inch gap between the toilet cubicle door and the adjacent panel its hinges are on

― nashwan, Friday, December 16, 2022 1:48 PM bookmarkflaglink

not even kidding, but when I was still office-bound and on the 4th floor, there was apparently a shy-pooper who was really hyper-anxious about this. I've heard of people hanging toilet paper to cover the little gap, but someone was actually making outright gigantic origami flowers with the toilet paper and hanging it over the gap, and not just in one stall, multiple stalls.

I one-time half jokingly asked on the company's digital bulletin board who was doing that, as it was wasting toilet paper, and the admin deleted my post because they thought I was making it up.

lol shartcrame

xp it was the admin obv

Star Wars

I voted cops, just cops. Is any other nation so obsessed with them that they voluntarily buy and display special flags just to show their support of cops?

I assume that thought with people like Maddow was that now that Trump has been removed from his role as President American can return to its role as police force, not that his ability to be President indicates why they should never be seen in that role. Is the role of US as supposedly neutral force able to step into a role like that widespread in the US.
I mean quite apart from the dodgy parts of history as to the roots of the police force in the US which should call for a major rethink of the idea of a police force anyway. Problem with the idea of police force is that it expects humans who do have inherent biases to be free enough from them that they should be able to enforce laws which themselves are not without bias etc etc. Zinn talked about the US going against agreements that had been signed with the rest of the Americas about interference in the first place, like back when they started making concentrated efforts to do so. But I'm sure taht has beenn said several times in different writers work.

The myth of neutrality would be a big one. Not just a powerful country looking out for its own interests in other people's resources.
I need to look further into the idea of democracy as it has been taken up in the 20th Century since the Greek original did have inherent exclusion as a major part of the balance of things.
Amorphous panaceac grails that the country has been trying to enforce like 'democracy', 'war on drugs','smashing terrorism' etc etc.
Reminds me of King Leopold creating a hell on earth in the Congo supposedly in the name of ending slavery. Concepts can be dangerous tools if used by the wrong people and tend to attract the wrong people inherently, like.

Belgian exceptionalism is being fine with having fucking statues of that piece of shit all over the place

US Liberals repping for their cuddly vision of colonialism is just what Liberals do worldwide tbf

Is there any reason the worst American obsession couldn’t conceivably be a thing that also exists in other countries

it’s part of a weird american obeisance to anyone in a uniform

possibly that the 2 alternatives given for politics are liberalism and conservatism which aren't as far apart on the spectrum as they themselves would suggest. I just read Zinn talking about the crushing of the idea of socialism both at home and abroad as part of that interference too.
& socialism has still apparently got a stigma as a term in the US 100 years later or whatever. Or certainly notably did a couple of years ago. I keep hearing references to Liberals siding with fascists in various talks recently, which hopefully does indicate a move away from stigmatising the left since voices from that side of the spectrum can now be heard on podcasts/webinars etc much more than they could be through more widespread media. Possibly would have been earlier if the technology had been there.

"Freedom," guns, American football

Pancakes and waffles.

For American-specific obsessions, I'd say guns. The broader categories people are mentioning, like exceptionalism, are pretty universal.

Root cause: testosterone?

Someone mentioned "toxic masculinity" upthread--it's not exclusive to the United States but takes some especially virulent forms here. And one element of that is corporate mass media that feeds and flatters that mindset.

Abortions

as in banning/suppressing/moralising over them or...?

xp there does seem to be something about settler societies and machismo (see also s america, australia, israel, white african colonies) I assume several books and theses have been written about this - obviously it's derived from attitudes and premises widely accepted in european cultures but it seems to take on weird new intensities outside the mother country

Football, but voting "America itself" since it pretty well covers all

I'm hoping to get to read Roxanne Dunbar Ortiz's book on the history of Settler Colonialism before long. Not A Nation of Immigrants .
The other books, webinars and podcasts I've read/heard by her have been great. Have been meaning to read this since it came out last year

me too i've heard good things

as in banning/suppressing/moralising over them or...?

xp there does seem to be something about settler societies and machismo (see also s america, australia, israel, white african colonies) I assume several books and theses have been written about this - obviously it's derived from attitudes and premises widely accepted in european cultures but it seems to take on weird new intensities outside the mother country

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Monday, December 19, 2022 2:39 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

there was some tweet that philosophy twitter personality liam bright retweeted that basically posted that european colonialism was born out of an inferiority complex because europe was so backwater compared to the arab world and china. oh yeah, it was summarizing a quote from anti-oedipus lol.

the increasing intensity of toxic machismo / manhood insecurity also forms a rough topography in microcosm across the u.s. from east to west i think. though maybe there are too many exceptions, like the south, and texas, and ohio. sort of feel like the internet is to blame for the intensification of it in certain older places.

I should try reading anti-oedipus again. it would also make sense to me if "oedipalization" (which I think D&G claim *is* colonialism at some point) requires more extreme methods in the colonies due to the relative lack of existing patriarchal structures to facilitate it compared to those long-established in the mother (/father) country. maybe that partly explains rural conservatism as well idk

as far as I know we never had a "new british man" or a "muscular anglicanism" because why would we need them? I wouldn't rule it out in the future though

LOL @ muscular Anglicanism

cuz every girl's crazy bout a new british man
*spins guitar*

I should try reading anti-oedipus again. it would also make sense to me if "oedipalization" (which I think D&G claim *is* colonialism at some point) requires more extreme methods in the colonies due to the relative lack of existing patriarchal structures to facilitate it compared to those long-established in the mother (/father) country. maybe that partly explains rural conservatism as well idk

― your original display name is still visible (Left), Monday, December 19, 2022 5:43 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

the first 20 pages are rough but it gets easier from there iirc.

i wish i could find the tweet but generally feel like repressed libidinal desire and social psycho dynamics underpin colonialism but i never see anyone mention it these days.

are d&g still out of fashion? desire is a great starting point for explaining a lot of things that americans especially love to be puritanical about imo. anyway just the ramble of a pot addled dilettante.

i'd say my answer to this thread question is absolutely guns. just abysmal, truly evil & omnipresent.

are d&g still out of fashion?

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I'll add to the guns pile.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

The broader categories people are mentioning, like exceptionalism, are pretty universal.

I think the late great's got a good point here though, that every country thinks they're the best but every country also understands that other countries all think that - America's difference is we think that but we think that you think that - Obama got a lot of shit for "I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism". A lower-wattage version of this is the stuff where a lot of Americans (not excluding all on this board) struggle a bit with the idea of other countries as actually different things, the "Perky 'Canada' Has Own Government, Laws" thing.

There's a thing with this, and the Rachel Maddow thing, where is this an example of something uniquely American or is it just what happens when you're the sole world power?

I think imperial britain had somewhat similar views of itself and of others' views of itself

Undoubtedly and it lingers on too, Mother of Parliaments and all that shite.

i think the american version of Exceptionalism is notable for how it got entangled with Christianity, Manifest Destiny, and later, Christian Zionism, and morphed into something violent and lasting. there are at least 40, 50 million people (+?) here that believe that the united states has been uniquely blessed and chosen by the christian god to lead the world and that we are destined to win the war against satan that leads to a millennium of heaven on earth with jesus on the throne. i think that is relevant to neoconservative and neoliberal missions to intervene and invade throughout the world, and it also had something to do with how many christians justified slavery.

however i think guns is also a very good answer

it's always blown my mind how many American kids shows played school bullying for laughs, back in the days when i watched stuff because my kids were into it, and if that isn't toxic masculinity writ ENORMOUS i dunno what is

― partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, December 16, 2022 1:24 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

This really struck a chord with me, and it's something I had kind of never realized before. Movies were different for some reason - lots of movies where the protagonist gets bullied. But in sitcoms for some reason it was totally different, just like "Shut up, nerd!" *stuffs nerds face in toilet* *UPROARIOUS LAUGH TRACK*

Related I think: I've noticed in American films from the 1930s through the 1960s at least, maybe into the '70s, that the male protagonist is not allowed to "win" unless and until he physically beats the shit out of his antagonist at some point. He is not a man, and therefore not qualified to be the hero, unless he demonstrates dominant physical prowess.

Pretty much. Maybe The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance is a notable exception? That was early 60s, so still within your timeline. Print the legend!

Also YEARS OF REPRESSED RAGE from said bullying makes you a fighting machine.

Cos god forbid you show them having to deal with it in therapy like the rest of us

I remember the one time I got angry enough to throw down, my opponent knocked me over and sat on me and it was over in seconds

I was the nerdy kid who would fight back and then get in trouble for that! Until I giae at up because I felt like I was fair game for older brothers who were back from the stir to join in if it got to heated and learned the manly art of crossing to the other side of the street or going around the block the other way.

x-post to James: But that film acknowledges - to the viewer - that Stewart wasn't the real hero, it was Wayne, but for everyone else (not the viewer) it's good enough to pretend Stewart was the hero.

In other words the paradigm is upheld

Indeed.

Michael Jordan and rings/champion/G.O.A.T. culture as a whole

people have suggested that you, mr. snrub, are a decades-long dril-type phenomenon

this doesn't help clear things up at all, so, kudos

it's always blown my mind how many American kids shows played school bullying for laughs, back in the days when i watched stuff because my kids were into it, and if that isn't toxic masculinity writ ENORMOUS i dunno what is

― partez Maroc anthem (Noodle Vague), Friday, December 16, 2022 1:24 PM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

This really struck a chord with me, and it's something I had kind of never realized before. Movies were different for some reason - lots of movies where the protagonist gets bullied. But in sitcoms for some reason it was totally different, just like "Shut up, nerd!" *stuffs nerds face in toilet* *UPROARIOUS LAUGH TRACK*

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Sunday, 1 January 2023 00:04 (eight hours ago) link

saved by the bell was kinda like that and it seems like maybe a lot of the Disney kid sitcoms of recent vintage are similar. Main characters who are kind of popular assholes, nerds on the margins as disrespected comic relief or regarded with disgust, etc. I watched SBTB a bit as a kid and it really always amazed me just how unlikable the main cast was.

Not familiar with the Disney shows, but I wouldn’t say that’s a norm.

A dad sitting down and talking to his son about how to deal with bullies was much more of a sitcom trope. In the 90s, TGIF era anyway.

Saved by the Bell was kind of a weird one. Show about high schoolers directed at kids who were in grade school/middle school. Aspirational aspect to it.

The dad sitting down and talking to his son about how to deal with bullies was much more of a sitcom trope in the 1950s, too. Generally it would be that the kid had to go ahead and fight the bully. The theory was that once the bully knew you weren't afraid, he'd back off. Unless you live inside a 50s sitcom, this doesn't work out very well most of the time, but that was the theory being pushed.

that's still the advice, i think. in avatar 2, there are several hundred scenes in which the youngest son disappoints his father. one of them involves a fight with some other kids. the father is disappointed, but then he asks him, slyly "what did the other guy look like?", confirms that his son did beat some bully ass, and then nods affirmatively before sending his son off to disappoint him greatly yet again

It was a little weird when his dad asked him if he saw the ass on that one