no way NYT

There’s Nothing Woke About a Tofu Burger
—Pamela Paul

finally read this about her: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/the-rules-according-to-pamela-paul

brilliant example of just letting someone explain how much they suck in their own words

i used to listen to the book review podcast which i always thought she did a nice job hosting, i was disappointed to find out that she is completely insane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI-8hst0bho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxcI4iaWHGk

Max Read wrote a characteristically funny editor’s note about her column. https://maxread.substack.com/p/editing-the-new-york-times

Who Wins the Language Wars?

—Nicholas Kristoff

*sigh*

If only Cindy Williams had gotten that part in Language Wars.

Ever since reading this piece on copaganda in the Times, it always jumps out. The latest: yesterday's The Morning, while discussing Tyre Nichols, kept referring to paramilitary units as "well-intentioned".

christ

What Liberals Can Learn From Ron DeSantis

fucking hell. might as well make this a Pamela Paul thread

I hope it has something to do with manliness.

"prison is appropriate for some people"

A Yale economics professor has some ideas for how to deal with the burdens of Japan’s rapidly aging society. The “only solution,” he said, is mass suicide of the elderly, including ritual disembowelment. https://t.co/krlL3Ytd2e

— The New York Times (@nytimes) February 12, 2023

"what did he mean?"

It's just metaphorical ritual suicide

We’ll be using that solution in the USA in a decade don’t you worry

Apparently this professor has become a cult figure among disgruntled Japanese youth who believe their futures have been impacted by the society’s aging demographics. They put his face on t shirts and things.

kudos to threadstarter for this important public service

I preferred quiddities and agonies of the ruling class

different topics imho, that one is "oh noes how will rich people cope", this one is more abt documenting their truly disturbing rightward shift

"their" being the NYT ofc

soon Bret Stephens will be the liberal columnist of the bunch

We’ll be using that solution in the USA in a decade don’t you worry

Some would suggest that American Covid response policy looks an awful lot like this even without trying

I preferred quiddities and agonies of the ruling class

― treeship., Sunday, February 12, 2023 4:31 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

different topics imho, that one is "oh noes how will rich people cope", this one is more abt documenting their truly disturbing rightward shift

― sleeve, Sunday, February 12, 2023 4:39 PM (one hour ago)

I like the quid-ag thread a lot too and will continue to post things there, but for better or worse I actually read those articles! and sleeve otm about the political bent

my sole regret wrt this thread is that I capitalized NYT, breaking from the past no-way thread convention :(

torn between the point of reporting on people like that Japanese Yale loon; like, guy hangs around with the person who runs 4chan, is clearly some edgelord discourse idiot, and doesn't deserve to be given attention by anyone, particularly the NYT and Yale. Yet maybe ignoring him isn't a good idea? Dunno.

There are ways to pay attention to him that don't involve writing articles about him

I thought this was an interesting article tbh. The “4chan edgelord” audience he panders to is a real thing, in Japan as well as the West. It’s worth keeping tabs on them.

also worth keeping tabs on ivy league/chicago-accredited economists, all of whom are latent genocidaires

and people who *wish* they were accredited so, like mcardle, yglesias and brett stephens's ex-wife

Yes, exactly.

that one is "oh noes how will rich people cope", this one is more abt documenting their truly disturbing rightward shift

Okay I get why ilxors respond to the content in the Times in these ways, and I have no serious counterargument.

That said, both of these characterizations fill me with cognitive dissonance though, and for different reasons.

First, my experience of salaries in print journalism was decidedly grim. My first journalism job paid $6 an hour. My second journalism job paid $16,000 a year. My third journalism job paid... $8 an hour. My third journalism job paid $12 an hour. My fourth journalism job paid $20,000 a year, which felt like a fortune. In 1996.

Referring to NYT staffers - or even its editorial columnists - as "the ruling class" is comprehensible only due to a perverse quirk of the economics of cultural production.

Basically, for most of my life, the ONLY people who could survive in NYC-based print-media industries (newspaper journalism, magazine journalism, and of course book publishing) were subsidized by wealthy parents.

Journalism - on its own - is not now, nor has it ever been, a path to riches. No one is getting wealthy from print journalism any more (and almost no one did so in prior decades either).

Truthbomb: if you are someone with one or more degrees in English, yes, you can work as an editorial assistant at Alfred A. Knopf (or the New Yorker, or whatever). But only if you have no student debt and your parents pay your rent. This has been true for half a century; it should not be news.

Now about the "disturbing rightward shift," please remember that approximately half the nation believes anyone involved in mainstream media - including and especially print media like NYT/WaPo - is essentially communist. Conservative media is clear on this point: the NYT is basically communist.

This disconnect is vexing. Ilxorz and lefties in general believe the NYT is center-right at best, and not to be trusted. Most of the conservasphere believes the NYT is hard left, left of Che Guevara, left of Lenin, left of Bernie, and not to be trusted.

Can both of these descriptions be true? I dunno. In the meantime I still feel like the NYT has a pretty good crossword puzzle app so I feel like sticking with it.

the way I feel about the Times is this:

it’s the paper I’ve been yelling at since i was a teenager, i don’t want to find a new paper to yell at. it has decent reporting on occasion, and the best online recipe depository.

i still think it sucks.

The ruling class experiencing quiddities and agonies are not NY Times staffers - it's the rich people being profiled in the lifestyle/real estate/etc sections.

Now about the "disturbing rightward shift," please remember that approximately half the nation believes anyone involved in mainstream media - including and especially print media like NYT/WaPo - is essentially communist. Conservative media is clear on this point: the NYT is basically communist.

This disconnect is vexing. Ilxorz and lefties in general believe the NYT is center-right at best, and not to be trusted. Most of the conservasphere believes the NYT is hard left, left of Che Guevara, left of Lenin, left of Bernie, and not to be trusted.

Can both of these descriptions be true? I dunno.

Why would the right's attitude be taken into account at all? They also think Joe Biden is a Stalinist baby blood-drinking pedophile or at least a Stalinist doing the bidding of baby blood-drinking pedophiles.

All major news media is center-right (at best) - they're capitalist enterprises who in the end have to protect their bottom line. This means 'printing the controversy,' an overwhelming focus on crime at every level, following the lead of American imperialism in anything outside our borders, dehumanizing anyone or anything that makes the upper-middle class anxious (the homeless, BLM activists, etc.), protecting fellow capitalist enterprises (ie advertisers).

The shift in the Times has been embracing deep reactionary takes on social issues - which is not new ground but a shift from the last couple of decades.

Referring to NYT staffers - or even its editorial columnists - as "the ruling class" is comprehensible only due to a perverse quirk of the economics of cultural production.

oh, i think there's a vast difference between NYT staffers and editorial columnists. it's a perverse quirk that the latter are accorded such attention, but, nevertheless, they are. (i was going to say 'fading quirk' but iirc the WaPo just fired a bunch of journalists while hiring a bunch of NRO/AEI columnists)

might be fading away now, but it's long been common knowledge that WSJ reporters can be relied upon even while the WSJ editorial page is fucking bonkers

i would first suggest that literally no one deserves a regular NYT opinion column -- no one has anything interesting to say twice a week for decades on end. but apart from that, who's left? a guy who just recently grasped climate change after a visit to greenland. a woman who thinks liberals should learn things from ron desantis. a guy who quit, to run for political office in a jurisdiction he didn't live, then came back. maureen fucking dowd. these people are all terrible, and obviously so. but they are voices that matter in the 'discourse' and the 'sunday morning shows'. and if they didn't suck so badly, perhaps those things would be slightly better

that all sounds right to me

wait which one of those is jamelle bouie

(to be clear i fully agree with you that there should not be such a thing as a regular NYT opinion columnist, and that nobody's 20th best opinion of the year is worth a damn)

jamelle bouie is grebt, and i suspect that as black man extremely well-versed in the last 300+ years of american history, he has almost endless things to write about twice a week

i have no idea what pamela paul will offer us on a weekly basis? ideally it won't be about the tragedy of taking her stupid friends to a sandwich place that offers soppressata, but i guess we'll see

This disconnect is vexing. Ilxorz and lefties in general believe the NYT is center-right at best, and not to be trusted. Most of the conservasphere believes the NYT is hard left, left of Che Guevara, left of Lenin, left of Bernie, and not to be trusted.

Can both of these descriptions be true? I dunno. In the meantime I still feel like the NYT has a pretty good crossword puzzle app so I feel like sticking with it.

trust fund kids have their own class politics. they resent the bourgeoisie (their parents) and feel guilty that they are part of it. so there is an incentive to evade directly dealing with uncomfortable questions of class. this accounts for the dissonance i think.

Not sure I understand how that is supposed to square the circle but OK I guess.

My final question is the extent to which the New York Times is actually influencing anything or anyone. That is, how many minds are getting changed because people type things and the NYT prints them or "prints" them?

I am skeptical. I don't think there are very many people being swayed to or from their preexisting attitudes because of something appearing in legacy print media. Maybe I'm wrong about this. As noted, I have been in the bubble since birth (child of journalists, journalism major, former journalist, etc.). But I have cultivated a humility about the influence of the field because I have been awake for the last quarter-century and see that it's only a tiny minority of weirdos who read anything any more, let alone something so dinosaurian as a printed newspaper.

Me? I have been read the Washington Post and New York Times all my life, but (a) I know I am an outlier and (b) Doing so hasn't put very many ideas in my head that weren't already there.

People who read, like, and believe newspapers do so because newspapers reflect a worldview they already hold, and which they probably inherited from their parents.

People who ignore, hate, and disparage newspapers do so because that course of actions reflects a worldview they already hold, and which they probably inherited from their parents.

What are you going on about?

so has the NYT always been center right? or did it execute a turnabout a few years ago? surely it was seen as much worse than center-right by the counter culture left in the late 1960s…

one difference from 10 years ago is that is not teetering on the edge of financial collapse: it is now a totemic product that the members of bourgie center left (such as me) use to signal their allegiance, their class, etc etc…and is calling it "center right" as a pejorative an ILX thing or is it widespread throughout the left internet?

so has the NYT always been center right? or did it execute a turnabout a few years ago? surely it was seen as much worse than center-right by the counter culture left in the late 1960s…

I'm pretty sure the Times came in for a kicking in Chomsky and Herman's Manufacturing Consent, which I read 30 years ago. And it definitely features prominently in Eric Alterman's What Liberal Media?, which came out in 2003. Calling it a "liberal" paper basically amounts to the broader public adopting a Nixon-era attack line.

Oh, it's just a viral marketing campaign

https://twitter.com/KimStimFilms/status/1625183907833430033

Shocking but this Yale prof says the quite part out loud suggesting mass suicide for old folks in Japan! This is the premise of Chie Hayakawa's moving, & unforgettable PLAN 75- a Cannes winner is set in a chilling, sci-fi tinged near future. Opens Spring!https://t.co/022TIc8heF

— KimStim (@KimStimFilms) February 13, 2023

The glasses are bothering me tbh

Yeah sorry, you can’t Gramsci your way out of this one, treeship— by any objective measure, the Times has been a center-right paper for my entire life, at least, and I am nearing 40. unperson otm.

In Shift From 2020, Identity Politics Loses Its Grip on the Country

6 min read

interesting to learn the nyt doesn't know what "identity" or "politics" mean

The four experts cited in this piece are Yascha Mounk (fired from The Atlantic in the past year over rape allegations), Rahm Emanuel, Lis Smith, and the head of Democratic Majority for Israel pic.twitter.com/1XyE1yWrf5

— David Klion (@DavidKlion) November 2, 2024

Maggie Astor thread on the Tech Guild strike: https://bsky.app/profile/maggieastor.bsky.social/post/3la4qfb7vfr2q

Main takeaway wrt picket line:

NYT Games and Cooking are BEHIND THE PICKET LINE. Please don’t play or engage with Games or Cooking content while the strike lasts!

News coverage — including election coverage — is NOT behind the picket line. It’s okay to read and share that, though the site and app may very well have problems.

These Uncommitted Voters Finally Made Their Choice for President
Over the last four months, these voters have struggled with their decision. Now, with time short, they explain who’s getting, or not getting, their vote.

on the eve of the campaign we detail the inner workings of the dumbest people alive

don't worry, i took a glance at that article and you will all be relieved to know that at least one of them is STILL undecided, gonna wait to see what their gut tells them in the voting booth

making a decision any earlier than that seems irresponsible tbrr

on the night before the world series it’s important to hear from six people who have never seen a baseball game

well, if they're going to play left field maybe

Michelle Cottle

Gaetz’s Withdrawal Means the Senate Passed Its First Test

2 min read

jfc

"Matt has a wonderful future, and I look forward to watching all of the great things he will do!”

wild that this paper is so transphobic they're dropping dopey op-eds in the Politics section

is it wild

which one?

this one: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/26/us/politics/transgender-activists-rights.html

I’m sure they did a lot of these type of stories about AIDS activists back in the 80s

Increasingly isolated!

Israel’s offensive against Hezbollah and the cease-fire to stop the fighting in Lebanon have left Hamas increasingly isolated

Not a terrible story as far as NYT stories go. xpost

Yeah, honestly I agree with Rob— it’s basically yielding the floor to transphobes and their “concerns” in the guise of speaking with trans people and allies who are more conservative and “normie” than the prevailing trans population.

I guess they were positively name-checking Andrew Sullivan in the comments. Adds up

I wrote a post earlier detailing my objections, but deleted it bc I don't want to argue with Alfred of all posters about this (and he's clearly aware of how low the bar is at the nyt on this issue).

Suffice to say I found the opening paragraphs to be strongly biased (Moulton's comments were a lot uglier than he makes them sound; I don't need to explain Rowling's deal), and afaict both activists cited in the headline and interviewed work for the same organization. A better piece would have properly surveyed the range of views on strategy that different trans activists surely hold and not framed it around how strident or inflexible they are according to transphobes.

The NYT's run some of the foulest anti-trans journalism of the last decade.

There is a story here: how do trans Americans counter the flood of GOP garbage and ignored by Dem satraps. I tend to trust Heng-Lehtinen because they've been honest for years (and considering their background, yikes).

(not sure if this was unclear, but just in case: my "objections" were to the article not your post!)

That would be a story I would love to read, Alfred, absolutely

This pamela paul piece

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/28/opinion/food-thanksgiving-digestion-aging.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb

Good example of the

Not sure what I was going to say there, but anyway, I am reminded, as ever, of this Hamilton Nolan column about her.

Not sure what I was going to say there, but anyway, I am reminded, as ever, of this Hamilton Nolan column about her🕸.

Dude does have a lot of good points, but it’s interesting that he doesn’t get to the conclusion where I think his argument leads … which is, the “full-time” columnist at the NYT job is essentially going to result in Pamela Pauls and Thomas Friedmans (just citing the ones he mentions). … because of the elite aspect of the job. Compare guest columns to their regular columns, and the guest columns are often way more interesting… because the people writing them mostly do other things than write columns for the NYT. It goes back to how Capitalism is structured and the function of specialization… which, this guy seems like he could expound about…

It would have been interesting to see him reflect on whether there is misogyny involved with singling out Pamela Paul.

It would have been interesting to see him reflect on whether there is value in thinking and writing about these “trivial things” … like I was with him at the beginning when he criticizes the dearth of ideas. But he doesn’t really make a case for his implicit hierarchy of ideas worth writing about.

I think that some of that implication is sort of embedded in other parts of the critique— Pamela Paul is an elitist demon who, when she isn’t decrying a completely fabricated “cancel” culture or trans youth, only writes about things that amount to the fiddling of the upper classes as the world burns. She is completely disconnected from normal people, so doesn’t have the concerns of normal people.

As far as misogyny goes, I understand that this might be part of it, but also she is a demon from hell.

It would have been interesting to see him reflect on whether there is misogyny involved with singling out Pamela Paul.

I think he was mostly going after her because she was the newest addition to the roster, having only been there two years, but was already demonstrating extraordinary vapidity. Her columns, frankly, are so dumb it makes you want to go back and look at all the editions of the Book Review she was in charge of, to see whether there was any evidence of idiocy then. Anyway, Pamela Paul has lifetime tenure if she wants it, guaranteed. Maureen Dowd, who is literally unreadably bad, grinds on week after week for, what, 40 years now?

The Book Review has been mostly trash for more than a decade.

I guess where I am coming from is, a “hot take” about the Barbie movie or old people’s food is better then yet another vapid “hot take” on Trump supporters or the election of which there are already too many.

Mostly written by white men.

I think that some of that implication is sort of embedded in other parts of the critique— Pamela Paul is an elitist demon who, when she isn’t decrying a completely fabricated “cancel” culture or trans youth, only writes about things that amount to the fiddling of the upper classes as the world burns. She is completely disconnected from normal people, so doesn’t have the concerns of normal people.

And it was a small school.

I mean, I get it, but I also went to a small and elite undergrad institution, and the number of people with infinitely more connections and family money than me have done much better in life. My point is that this isn’t that complicated an issue— she went to an elite school, but by dint of her family connections and the world she inhabited (married first to demon Bret Stephens and now to some financial analyst dude who is also undoubtedly a candidate for Mr Choppy), she was able to get onto the path that she is on.

Yes I agree with you, even though that wasn’t where I was going.

Honestly my problem with the old people food column was her wtf attitude towards British sweets

Paul Krugman is hanging it up. Says on Bluesky "I decided to leave in search of more freedom in terms of both style and content."

Substacking

Maybe he'll start a music blog. Remember when Arcade Fire winning the Grammy led him to get into indie rock?

We need more boomers talking rock

he's joining the Stones as their bassist.

Motley Krüg

Krugangbin

Keep on Krooglin'

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/12/03/nyregion/nyc-private-school-tuition.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Not sure whether this is more quid-ag … definitely involves quid

Bullet casings left at the scene, scrawled with words like “deny” and “delay,” left the authorities and the public wondering if the shooting was payback for health care insurers rejecting claims.

Where Beards Grow, Strong Feelings Follow

Whether on Prince William, JD Vance or Jacob Elordi, facial hair gets people talking.

And how!

Bret Stephens

Brian Thompson, Not Luigi Mangione, Is the Real Working-Class Hero

(already posted elsewhere, but for posterity)