Sight and Sound 2022: The Final Showdown

wrong Tarkovsky, at least half a dozen "fuck off" choices, gonna vote Dragon Inn with very little doubt

I voted for Zama because why not

xp Oh c'mon, I only count three, maybe four "fuck off" choices here

yeah tbf that was rhetorical exuberance

Damn, I love all these except for Annie Hall (baggage) and Zama (good, way too soon to call it an all-timer).

Annie Hall in the poll shows how there is no cancellation, never mind justice, in this world.

I'd have a lot more to say were it Manhattan given the free pass here (MD'A had it on his ballot because, gross)

The Spirit of the Beehive, why not

once again, crash

Spirited Away (hope this isn't a fuck off choice)

Nope, Goodfellas is

Annie Hall in the poll shows how there is no cancellation, never mind justice, in this world.

lol I think his new one playing Venice Film Festival makes a stronger case for this than the results of an ilx poll tbh

Think I'll vote Playtime

Spirited Away and Zama were my two other "for consideration"s tbh

also my initial "fuck off" is less about any of these being worthless and much more about the dullness of their admitted quality or in the case of Woody Allen fuck acknowledging Woody Allen

Roman Polanski's latest supposedly tenfold worse than the new Woody

if i had to do a taking sides, filmwise Polanski is higher highs and much lower lows than Allen

if i had to click a button to acknowledge my admiration for either of them in 2023 i think i'd just not click the button

Stalker over Zama, glad Crash is getting some votes. Haven't seen Goodbye Dragon Inn.

I'm voting for "best film in this poll", not "best film of all time", though Tarkovsky is a favourite.

You all know my opinion: “best film in this poll” and “best of all time” = 2001

I’m watching Goodbye, Dragon Inn on Netflix DVD tomorrow night for the second time, to say goodbye to that service, which is folding at the end of this month. It will not be otherwise available to me on streaming

I’m still wondering why Stalker was such a dysphoric film for me. I will watch it again, but am reluctant

Lastly, I don’t think it is too soon to call Zama an all-timer

Crash, Goodfellas, The Third Man and Annie Hall would be my "fuck offs" and Pickpocket is far from my favourite Bresson. Love everything else

The Third Man was my vote! Can't beat good old Brit misanthropy.
One of these years I'll see Goodfellas, hasn't happened yet.

I’m watching Goodbye, Dragon Inn on Netflix DVD tomorrow night for the second time, to say goodbye to that service, which is folding at the end of this month. It will not be otherwise available to me on streaming

Was gonna say it sort of doesn't work as well unless you're watching it in a mostly empty theater that's about to close, but I guess you found a reasonable analogue

"lol I think his new one playing Venice Film Festival makes a stronger case for this than the results of an ilx poll tbh"

Makes it even worse that he's alive and getting work out there. Given the amount we've poured over in regards to #metoo, the talk about toxic masculinity and the Roisin thread currently live on ilm...people here couldn't even restrain themselves a bit for a little poll.

Haven't seen: Pickpocket, Crash (I've read the book), Goodbye Dragon Inn (love the King Hu), Zama

Fuck off: Goodfellas (undeniably entertaining on first watch but not remotely deserving its cultural ubiquity), Annie Hall (Keaton is cool, but I didn't partic like this even when I cared about Allen)

The rest are all great, though I confess to being mostly perplexed by Beehive the one time I caught it. Going with Playtime as I prefer other P&P and Miyazaki films

NV's #1 and top 3 are mine as well. Crash is the only one of these I actively dislike. (Caveat: Saw it once when it came out and haven't revisited, it's possible it would strike me differently.)

I now just feel sorry for the people here who have talked themselves into thinking there’s anything wrong with Goodfellas.

These polls get to be more fun all the time. I'm a cop because I voted for some dumb Oasis song over some wretched Steve Winwood song. I'm the "there will always be one" guy because I voted for There Will Be Blood (even though it turns out I'm not--the one, that is). I almost want to vote for Goodfellas here so I can be told to fuck off, and there was I time I would have, but I'll go with Double Indemnity and look forward to finding out what grievous sin that entails.

none of the "fuck offs" were directed at posters

xp it is a shame, the way you are being silenced

ineffectively, that is

I don't know--was that implication in my post, that I was being silenced? I'm rereading it...I don't think so.

To the delight of many, I'm close to impossible to silence.

Am I right in my impression that it seems to be more acceptable on modern-day ILX to cast aspersions on another poster's film tastes than on their music tastes? Or is that just a function of who in each group is expressing their tastes and who is critiquing them?

I have done both! Just don't post on ILM as much now.

I would never call you a cop, clemenza

To paraphrase Rupert Pupkin, better a hopelessly middlebrow, '70s-centric Paulette for a day than a cop for a lifetime.

Am I right in my impression that it seems to be more acceptable on modern-day ILX to cast aspersions on another poster's film tastes than on their music tastes? Or is that just a function of who in each group is expressing their tastes and who is critiquing them?

― Halfway there but for you,

Yes tot he first question. I was going to post ask why we're more critical about film tastes.

Only one way to find out, everyone start a thread about their 50 favourite films

Music is more abstract a form than film, thus there’s more room to allow people their subjective tastes

werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl)
Posted: 9 September 2023 at 04:18:56
anyone who voted for oasis is a cop

That’s a post about music tbf & you’ll encounter posts like it in countless ilm polls (it’s also obviously jocular and fine and not worth commenting on unless you’re weirdly addicted to making a big deal of your embattled position in polls that don’t matter)

Basically yeah. I try to generally never denigrate others’ musical preferences … they’re so much more tied in with the subconscious imo. Taste in movies, tho, is far more fair game

Also my taste in ILM terms is pretty clearly bad

It won't play.

How does Clemenza keep finding himself on the wrong side of history all the time?

Guy has a real knack for it.

Because history is right now, this moment--there's never a longer view.

And a message board is the world out there.

xyzzzz's question comes off better if imagined as two acquaintances debating shit over pints.

Pretty sure Goodfellas would show up in any aggregated list, so, as Gang of Four said, history is bunk (I don't care either way).

I try to generally never denigrate others’ musical preferences … they’re so much more tied in with the subconscious imo. Taste in movies, tho, is far more fair game

― fair but so uncool beliefs here (Eric H.), Saturday, September 9, 2023

I wonder if that's true, about taste in movies. Music isn't very often more abstract than film, so I'm not sure how it is seen as more universal, with everybody having equally great taste regarding it

My interest in films doesn't align with anybody I know personally, not family, friends, or acquaintances, only with the few of you who post about films here, and sometimes I'm not even sure about your tastes tbh. But that also is how I feel about my interest in music

The meta explanation I'd bring to the table is that most regulars here have had 10+ years of being mean about music on ILM and at some point it gets to diminishing returns.

dreadful thread so far ofc

third man

Rinse and repeat!

Fancy a pint?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZQaLmme-eg

voting playtime with a side of killfiles

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61XmhEpIHpL.jpg

the Joe Pesci version of the character in Goodfellas is a heavily sanitised (and shortened version). The real one was a 6"2 musclebound psycho who once shot a random stranger just to test his new gun out. Joe Pesci irl would get bullied by children on the average UK council estate.

Vector Erice

The most likeable characters and best real-life role-models in any of the films listed above are the little girls in Beehive, Stalker and Spirited Away.

I rewatched Goodbye, Dragon Inn, and it was as mesmerizing, perverse, content-free and inscrutable as I had remembered it being

At the beginning of the film we're peeking from behind the curtain and there are a large number of people in the seats. Maybe it is an earlier showing? But shortly after that, without any break, it appears mostly empty. That is not explained at all

The dialogue in the movie that is showing in the theater, Dragon Inn, is oblique, but often seems to be speaking to the audience who are experiencing it as a farewell.

There are people eating a variety of concessions with loud smacking of lips, and a person putting his bare feet up over the seat next to one of the patrons.

The scene where the main protagonist, the ticket woman with the limp (Shiang-chyi Chen, who was also in Stray Dogs) slices the peach bun and then looks at it motionless for an eternity before taking it up to the projectionist (who is ignoring her) is so subtle and great, as is the scene where she looks from behind the curtain and is enchanted by the larger-than-life warrior princess on the screen.

The young man going from seat to seat who is trying to make connections with other men in the theater feels like the other protagonist. He is alternately repulsed by the other men and completely thwarted by them

The constant rain, ceiling leaks with buckets placed out, endless dingy hallways and unused rooms, and large lavatory all add to the ghostliness

There seems to be a repeated thing in the movie where men congregate together, either sitting next to each other in a mostly empty theater and ignoring or scrutinizing each other, or lined up together side-by-side at urinals in an absurdly large men's room. Towards the end, a young woman shows up who changes the atmosphere a bit

The sad pop song that was played at the very end while the ticket woman was walking home in the rain, after all of the silence, was kind of surprising but felt right

Yes, yes, yes, and yes to all of that. Plus its gay bona fides

The ticket woman looking at the bun, that's one of the images I remember most from it.

https://www.highonfilms.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/GDI-cover.jpg

"The sad pop song that was played at the very end while the ticket woman was walking home in the rain, after all of the silence, was kind of surprising but felt right"

One of the best endings

So what did the Tsai fans herein think of What Time Is It There?

I liked it, but it's been a while so I don't have firm thoughts about it.

I like it as much as Goodbye, Dragon Inn.

I saw What Time Is It There? several years ago and remember liking it. The connection between the characters in Taipei and Paris was interesting, and the sound design was really great.

It also starred Shiang-Chyi Chen, the ticket lady from Goodbye, Dragon Inn.

There is no way to watch it again for the foreseeable future though, at least in the US, unless you have an older dvd copy

What Time is it There? feels a bit like it’s fallen into the Blue Velvet zone, where at the time it came out it was thought to be an instant signpost of its director’s career, and is still in many ways the crossover hit, but is maybe now regarded by acolytes as a slightly “square” choice compared to the movies that go way harder into Lynchland/Tsaispace. That could just be my bias creeping in though

Dead Ringers is also in that same class these days, I’d argue

Dead Ringers always comes up among Cronenberg's two or three best, though. Am I wrong?

i never see that one come up compared to videodrome + the fly + crash

I'd put his Scanners through Naked Lunch run up there against anyone.

Yeah, Crash and Videodrome feel like the current Cronenberg go-to titles at this point. I rarely see many citing Dead Ringers these days

Also, The Brood’s take on trauma plays well with the times more than any of his other early/gory period

Dead Ringers is one of my fave Cronenbergs, Crash probably my least favorite of the ones I've seen, so I guess I'm out of step with the times.

Up here, I think Dead Ringers was a watershed where the mainstream press could finally talk about him as a Respectable Artist rather than a guy who makes those nasty horror movies.

(xpost) Not completely--or rather, you're not alone: Dead Ringers is so much better.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Crash has my in-spirit second-choice vote

The thing is...Dead Ringers is as grisly if not more than the earlier films.

The casting of Brideshead poof Jeremy Irons gives it a veneer of respectability, I guess.

I love it, but to me it definitely has kind of an arthouse veneer production-wise that the earlier ones don't. It feels more "serious."

I don’t see the anger in Ringers as being any more palpable or powerful than in The Brood

(Not the misogyny, for that matter)

DR is funnier than The Brood. And co-stars Genevieve Bujold.

“What is your deal, chum?”

Art Hindle using a child’s drawing to cover up the bludgeoned face of a preschool teacher while her class cowers is pretty funny tbh

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

There it is, the same #1 as the Morbsies #1

CRASH (David Cronenberg; Canada; 1996) 4

my people

GOODBYE, DRAGON INN (Tsai Ming-liang; Taiwan; 2003) 7
GOODFELLAS (Martin Scorsese; USA; 1990) 7

My people ... deadlocked with there's-always-one people

thing about needing to always snipe about it is you're the group saying they dont want to talk about it

Well you've got me wrong there. I'm always very game to shit on Goodfellas

You guys sure like Kubrick

p good top5 if you remove the winner

Same number of votes for Crash and Annie Hall, which feels appropriate

Does anyone who dislikes any of these films literally think they should not be seen? Like would you advise a young film student "do not watch this, it's that bad"?

I would advise young film students to watch bad movies a lot, you learn a lot from them!

It's difficult for me to think of a movie that "shouldn't be seen" period but there's certainly a few on this list where I'd say "consider watching this instead, it's a better version of this sort of thing".

I would advise young film students to watch bad movies a lot

Ditto

What lesson does 2001, viewed as "bad", teach better than a run-of-the-mill bad film?

My advice to film students

'I have no general ideas about the cinema. I can only talk to you about my cinema.'
This International Translation Day, we recommend you preorder "My Cinema," a 400-page volume of writing by Marguerite Duras about her 19 films.
Arriving in December from: https://t.co/FTKmpvlL5J pic.twitter.com/WeFOictuey

— Another Gaze / Another Screen (@anothergaze) September 30, 2023