Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

As requested. WmC do you want to close the other thread?

Yair Wallach, who is an Israeli academic at SOAS very much not sympathetic to Likud/Bibi, is a good source on twitter atm, but like all the content out there atm, proceed at your own risk.

He retweeted this video of a young woman from one of the kibbutzes (kibbutzim?) that was attacked earlier:

By far the most powerful Israeli response I have seen.

This 19 year old girl survived the horrific massacre in Kibbutz Be’eri.

This is her message to her fellow Israelis and to the world.

Watch the whole thing.pic.twitter.com/qSPKZX4pzg

— Benzi Sanders (@BenzionSanders) October 14, 2023

Thanks, gyac.

Chotiner and Sari Bashi, the program director at Human Rights Watch:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-humanitarian-catastrophe-in-gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W43C8xhh5E

Sam & Emma interviewing Omar Shakir, Israel & Palestine Director at HRW this morning

looks like David Dayen in there too

Yes, but trying to ask a question of the guest when Sam is in interview mode is a tall order

Why is our political class so invested in suppressing criticism of the apartheid regime? The answer is obvious. Western states support Israel in order to maintain their power at a crucial crossroads of world trade. Challenging that power is impermissible, because any attempt to hold Israel accountable for its crimes is – by definition – an attempt to hold our own states accountable for their involvement in them. Not only are our rulers prepared to let Israel level Gaza; they will even provide it with diplomatic cover and military supplies.

https://newleftreview.org/sidecar/posts/impending-genocide

As noted, I know numerous IRL people with Israeli flag avatars saying that they stand with Israel no matter what.

Plus I know IlXorz and others who almost uniformly condemn Israel as a brutal apartheid state that continues to use "but the Holocaust" as a laminated carte blanche for every atrocity the IDF wishes to commit. (There is a bit of a strawman in there but that's another topic for another time.)

I have met exactly zero people in between. I know it is not about me and/or my feelz. And I don't love "both sides"ing US politics either. The discourse is polarized and will remain so.

Absolutely no-one has talked about this situation at work, there's been no conversation about it at all, maybe people don't talk about it at work in the US either I don't know.

No offence Tom but that was a post I was hoping could be left behind in the old thread

xp, thank you for that gyac, incredibly moving. I also recommend the NYTimes Daily from today on the situation on the ground in gaza from the perspective of people caught in it, difficult listening:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/podcasts/the-daily/gaza-israel.html

(the ep labeled "Voices from Gaza")

I’m just going to say that I am not in-between on this issue, but that should be obvious by now.

xp I know people are all about bearing witness but I find this stuff incredibly upsetting.

I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting.

Bernard's mother and family went out of their way to tell me that they would be praying for my family in Gaza. We hugged, we cried, and we promised to re-dedicate ourselves to peace and to be unequivocal; no innocent man, woman, or child should pay the price of another's actions. https://t.co/Vv1fz9gXqJ

— Humza Yousaf (@HumzaYousaf) October 13, 2023

Also, for context on the Kibbutz Be'eri post and those less familiar with the situation of the past 15-20 years (and again disclaimer I am hardly an expert myself): from Ariel Sharon onward, Israeli policy has been increasingly tilted toward a phony sort of "disengagement." In my mind, it traces back to the building of the West Bank wall although that could be simplistic take. But Netanyahu has turbo-charged this idea, basically that Israel could just kind of ignore the territories (at least other than soldiers stationed in the West Bank) rather than engage in any more ongoing negotiations, that the West Bank could continue to develop economically even without full agency or freedom, and that Gaza would be the kind of counterexample (i.e. life would be worse than in the West Bank) as long as Hamas was there. That terrorism could simply be prevented or minimized through "security," the settlements in the West Bank could continue quietly, and most Israelis would just live their lives and not worry.

Netanyahu is also notoriously corrupt and venal, and he has maintained power through a coalition with right-wing settler and religious parties, giving both more power (which also angers the more secular wings of Israeli politics as Israel gradually takes on additional trappings of theocracy, though it is hardly a full theocracy).

Netanyahu also favors his voters. The kibbutzes near Gaza tend actually to be center-liberal to left. They are not Netanyahu voters. There is a strong sense that Netanyahu "neglected" these areas as the girl expressed in her video, and that is also reflected in the sense that he neglected security near the Gaza border. I genuinely do not know whether Netanyahu "allowed" the attack but I seriously doubt it for reasons I stated in the prior thread. I think this was more hubris and stupidity and myopia.

"I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting."

Mentioned this in the last Israel thread.

You can count on one hand the number of European leaders who have talked about Palestinians as human beings

And they’re all backpedaling now given protests and public pushback.

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

people are so fucking gross

Public statements issued by university presidents are generally tailored to a narrow and specific segment of the public, mainly anyone with influence over university revenues or endowments. They are paid to know how to read that room.

Aimless, we know. No offense.

Well, yeah. When you've got Dick Wolf threatening your donations because you let Palestinians into a building named after him...

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

Always guarantee the BBC will always be fucked.

The BBC admits that it misled the public about pro-Palestinian demonstrations in the UK. pic.twitter.com/oi4nVf5DN7

— Lowkey (@Lowkey0nline) October 16, 2023

i think about this poem by Palestinian poet Najwan Darwish all the time pic.twitter.com/jv5WOOjobb

— هستی hasti (@youarehasti) October 16, 2023

xp - That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

This is @GhassanAbuSitt1, a surgeon who is currently saving the lives of Palestinians in a hospital in Gaza. He's just reported that counter terrorism police have showed up at his house in the UK and harrased his family.pic.twitter.com/GOvl5aQLHG https://t.co/bugmmZPAMM

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 16, 2023

That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

glad i'm not the only one who thought this

OTM

I know this is old news, but it still blows my mind that the range of Acceptable Opinions on Israel is narrower in the West than it is in Israel.

That Darwish poem is great. Notable that Armenians were just cleansed from Artsakh by Azerbaijan and absolutely no-one in the west cared.

Yup. Armenia could be invaded in the next few weeks btw.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as ILX and (yes, believe it or not) Reddit.

I do wonder if the "outrage economy" of clickbait extremism online and the 24 hours news cycle will finally hit a limit of societal acceptability in western democracies, but I'm not holding my breath, they still make $$$

"We called a pro-palestinian march pro-Hamas. We accept that this was a thing that we said". WTF.

Now here's the weather.

True, I understand in theory how misinformation supposedly works. But I'm finding it extremely challenging to trust some of the news sources being cited and finding myself turning to reddit, and other news sources that I don't normally consult trying to see what areas of dispute exist over even just the factual reporting.

xp

Interestingly enough, a private forum I participate in is completely avoiding talking about this, and honestly it might be for the best.

The ukpolitics sub is overall fanatically pro-occupation and pro-genocide, and they are gradually losing their shit as they observe the public becoming turned off by this stance. Also they are usually witheringly critical of the Tories but have suddenly become staunchly supportive of Sunak and Braverman.

Are you taking about Reddit or something

I have met exactly zero people in between.

To the extent I've talked to people about this, almost everybody I know IRL is "in between" the two positions you describe.

Reddit is a paragon of “nuanced discussion” now. We are truly fucked.

Actually was just thinking about this specific issue in non-Reddit terms which still definitely apply to Reddit. How this conflict is a godsend for the extreme right (and whatever apologists they may have claiming to be “leftist”). Because it so thoroughly divides actual leftists from liberals steeped in realpolitik or whatever they’re on.

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

There's nothing decent to besmirch. The Law & Order "franchise" is a formulaic, sensationalist pile of shit. All 1,316 episodes of it.

Also pretty depressing how my social media feed was blissfully Ben Shapiro-free until various people decided his thick-headed, one-dimensional take on the Middle East was the voice of reason this past week.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as 4chan and (yes, believe it or not) Stormfront.

We get it. You don't like Reddit.

I don’t like social media illiterates upholding a literal right wing extremist-captured disinformation service as their go-to for balanced discussion.

lol what

Lol hey i wasnt even posting here viborg

Yes, the famously extremist platform, reddit

Extremely milquetoast maybe

I don't like posting links with no commentary, but I have no idea what to say about that.

It’s fine. There was probably a college student somewhere that said something racist.

Honestly cannot believe that anyone can defend anything about Israel at this point.

At the site of the Israeli assassination strike in south Beirut, residents chant, "We are at your service, O Nasrallah."pic.twitter.com/mQJIBBoF9d

— Séamus Malekafzali (@Seamus_Malek) April 1, 2025

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2025/04/02/pentagon-deploys-more-squadrons-assets-aircraft-carriers-to-middle-east

This is not only morally grotesque—it’s strategically myopic. Palestinians, and people in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iran and beyond, will continue to resist, in every way they can. Not necessarily because they believe they will win, but because resistance to erasure and humiliation…

— Amal Saad (@amalsaad_lb) April 2, 2025

Israel loves antisemites and antisemites love Israel.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/apr/03/netanyahu-to-visit-hungary-as-orban-vows-to-defy-icc-arrest-warrant

Hard to see how Gaza isn't already a concentration camp.

Meron Rappaport in +972 Magazine: pic.twitter.com/dhKOrsrbCq

— Paul Graham (@paulg) April 3, 2025

nyt notices Israel's war on Syria: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/03/world/middleeast/israel-syria-airstrikes-ground-operation.html?unlocked_article_code=1.804.AupT.lGVq8BZKLd1x&smid=url-share

Yemen is demilitarizing the United States pic.twitter.com/ACnm1yEkfB

— Ali Abunimah (@AliAbunimah) April 4, 2025

There have been only 10 Israelis who have refused military service since the start of the genocide. Absolutely cooked, lunatic nation.

— canaan girl (@tinyfleu) April 4, 2025

Wonder what the source is for that

yeah some light googling indicates that is, possibly, wildly wrong

hmm, on looking further, it's quite difficult to determine: https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/24/middleeast/israel-refuseniks-teens-military-intl-cmd/index.html

Despite social ostracization, he – and what a network of organizations supporting conscientious objectors say is a growing number of refuseniks – remain dedicated to the cause.

Their numbers are still exceedingly small. Only a dozen Israeli teens have publicly refused to enlist on conscientious grounds since the start of the war, according to Mesarvot, an organization that supports objectors. But that number is higher than in years prior to the war.

Mesarvot told CNN that there are far more “grey refuseniks” or, people that claim mental or general health exemptions to dodge the draft and avoid the possibility of serving time behind bars. Because of the nature of those refusals, it is impossible to provide exact numbers.

Yesh Gvul, another anti-war group that supports conscientious objectors, told CNN that on average, every year, 20% of youngsters required to serve are refusing to do so, according to figures shared by the Israeli military. That number, Yesh Gvul said, includes both refuseniks and “grey refuseniks.”

The Israeli military does not publish figures about conscription refusal. CNN has asked the Israeli military for those figures and comment.

This is the video that figure comes from. Its "refuse publicly"

"When our grandchildren ask what we did during the genocide, I’ll say I refused."

This Israeli is being held in solitary confinement for refusing military service. pic.twitter.com/BBTA9LnQ1f

— AJ+ (@ajplus) April 3, 2025

yeah my cousin was a "grey refusenik" by this definition, used a mental health excuse. i don't think there is much to be gleaned from the number of official conscientious objectors, particularly if being one requires you to go to solitary confinement, wtf.

his father btw has netanyahu brainworms and it is pretty remarkable talking to my (sane) cousins about it, it is basically the exact conversation people have when they lose a parent to fox news. obviously a different context, but same exact dynamics

there's a good article about Israel's version of Tucker, for those who have the stomach:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/01/20/netanyahus-media-poison-machine

my sense is that there's a similar proportion in the full-on cult watching this shit as in the states. Though that wouldn't fully overlap with the haredim, who exhibit some cult-like behaviour of their own.

SCOOP: We obtained video footage showing Israel attacked the convoy of aid workers in Gaza with a barrage of bullets, a paramedic frantically says his prayers of death. The ambulances had lights on & were marked refuting Israel's claim. w/ @ckoettl https://t.co/9ONnjHE8L2

— Farnaz Fassihi (@farnazfassihi) April 5, 2025

sick

these incidents always end up showing how routinely and glibly the Israeli army lies, in a sane world the media wouldn't cite them as a credible source

otm

yup

absolutely horrifying.

it's in contrast to how some outlets (hopefully not the NYT) started referring to the "Hamas-run Health Ministry", a violation of standard journalistic practice and aa description of a Health Department that as far as I know has not been credibly shown to exaggerate counts in what is a brutally difficult undertaking. I'm OK with equal skepticism shown to Israeli and Hamas official pronouncements (but that's getting away from the point of this discussion about an atrocity).

after the inconvenient discovery of video footage, the Israeli army now admits mistakes were made: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy0xp969n69o

but not to worry, a "thorough examination" will be conducted. Also a completely gratuitous reference to the "Hamas-run Health Ministry", great stuff from the BBC.

Amazed these fascists bothered.

Haaretz-

Trump is entirely absorbed by the trade war. His envoy, Steve Witkoff, met released hostages and hostages' families on Sunday in a warm and moving meeting, but beyond a lot of warm words, he doesn't have much to offer right now. The Hamas proposal and the Israeli counter-proposal are still on the table. Netanyahu thinks that time is on his side, so he feels no pressure. The military operation in Gaza continues, and the right is not pressing him about the hostages. If Witkoff doesn't bend his arm until it breaks, the hostages will remain in Gaza. Unfortunately, it does not seem like Witkoff can do that now" – Chaim Levinson

Trump and Netanyahu meeting at White House today. No press conference

For once a break on the horror. Here is a couple of posts from ppl watching and enjoying Champions League football in Gaza.

Btw: The cafes were packed with youngsters and people watching. Children are following closely in leaky tents under the bombings. Everyone was charging their battery since the sunrise for the game.

My friends and many people are just talking about the game now. My other friend… https://t.co/uCy7AWtOvw

— Abubaker Abed (@AbubakerAbedW) April 8, 2025

Is there a connection between Rice or Arsenal and Gaza?

Most of them were probably supporting Real Madrid.

This has been buried due to economics but we might be seeing US forces on the ground soon.

The Trump administration is reportedly thinking fo putting American troops on the ground in Yemen. Imagine what will happen to these numbers if (more) body bags start coming home. https://t.co/nGNsoWzAwu

— Jeet Heer (@HeerJeet) April 9, 2025

my thanks to twitter user Benjamin Netanyahu for settling the question of whether or not Israel is a colonizer:

Netanyahu, like his son, mentioned France's overseas territories, saying: "We will not jeopardize our existence because of illusions disconnected from reality, and we will not accept moral sermons about the establishment of a Palestinian state that will endanger Israel's existence from those who oppose granting independence to Corsica, New Caledonia, French Guinea and other territories whose independence would not endanger France in any way."

Haaretz link: https://archive.ph/U3qSD

some territories that vote in French elections and whose people have French citizenship. But otherwise the same thing yes.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-news-ceasefire-hostages-04-16-2025-884713e2096d5353e3008ec7d9cc01ab

Israeli defense minister says troops will remain in Gaza, Lebanon and Syria indefinitely

Israeli forces have taken over more than half of Gaza in a renewed campaign to pressure Hamas to release hostages after Israel ended their ceasefire last month. Israel has also refused to withdraw from some areas in Lebanon following a ceasefire with the Hezbollah militant group last year, and it seized a buffer zone in southern Syria after rebels overthrew President Bashar Assad in December.

“Unlike in the past, the (Israeli military) is not evacuating areas that have been cleared and seized,” Defense Minister Israel Katz said in a statement. The military “will remain in the security zones as a buffer between the enemy and (Israeli) communities in any temporary or permanent situation in Gaza — as in Lebanon and Syria.”

Still blocking aid, still bombing tents and Palestinians to rubble.

Houthis doing what they can.

A hypersonic missile from Yemen has reached Israeli airspace over Haifa, to my knowledge for the first time ever. https://t.co/OjsOtYip86

— Séamus Malekafzali (@Seamus_Malek) April 23, 2025

According to WFP, for more than seven weeks, no humanitarian or commercial supplies have entered Gaza. This is the longest border closure Gaza has ever faced - pushing already fragile markets and food systems to collapse.

— بلستيا (@byPlestia) April 25, 2025

Hamas said on Saturday that it sent a high-level delegation to Cairo to try and get the stalled cease-fire back on track. A senior Hamas source told Agence France-Presse that the delegation would present "Hamas' vision for ending the war," and added that disarmament of the group was "not on the table."

A Hamas official told AFP that the group is willing to agree on a cease-fire proposal in which they would release all hostages at once, if Israel agrees to a five-year halt in fighting. Israel has not yet responded to the report.

Hamas official Ali Baraka later confirmed to Hezbollah-affiliated news outlet Al Mayadeen that the group wants a comprehensive agreement in which all hostages will be released at once and said that "there is no obstacle to a five-year cease-fire." He added that Hamas would not return to an agreement similar to the one made in January, which the Netanyahu government violated.

from Haaretz

1000 children killed in Gaza since the resumption of Israel’s genocide on March 18th as per UNRWA

— Abubaker Abed (@AbubakerAbedW) April 27, 2025

what a surprise /s

REPORT: Biden Officials Admit They Never Pressured Israel for Ceasefire, as Israeli Leaders Boast of Playing Washington

“God did the State of Israel a favor that Biden was the president during this period… We fought [in Gaza] for over a year and the administration never came to… pic.twitter.com/2k6ISAmyfn

— Drop Site (@DropSiteNews) April 28, 2025

don't believe in hell but

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/02/gaza-humanitarian-aid-ship-bombed-drones-waters-off-malta

This picture is not from Gaza it is from Ain Shams refuge camp in the West Bank. pic.twitter.com/eF52JXJgYP

— Khalil Sayegh (@KhalilJeries) May 2, 2025

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/04/netanyahu-yemen-houthis-attack-israel-ben-gurion-airport

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/05/israel-expand-military-operations-gaza

full reoccupation is back on the menu. lord have mercy.

Ruthless and stubborn Netanyahu vs other voices —

When Israel and Hamas agreed to the January cease-fire deal, Mr. Netanyahu said credit should go to the “painful blows that our heroic fighters have landed on Hamas.”
“This is exactly how the conditions were created for the turning point in its position and for the release of our hostages,” he said during a national address.

But other voices, like Yair Lapid, Israel’s opposition leader, have expressed grave doubts about the strategy. “I fear that the intensity of the fighting will dictate the fate of the hostages,” Mr. Lapid said on Israeli Army Radio. “What is the goal? Why are they calling up reservists? Extending regular service and all without defining a goal — that’s not how you win a war.”

In a statement Monday, the organization representing the families of hostages urged the government not to widen the war.

“The expansion of military operations puts every hostage at grave risk,” the families said. “We implore our decision makers: Prioritize the hostages. Secure a deal. Bring them home — before it’s too late.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/05/world/europe/israel-buildup-soldiers-hamas-gaza.html?unlocked_article_code=1.E08.iXX7.NcjfiImWPSYN&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

from the NYT article on this:

“It’s time to launch the concluding moves,” Mr. Netanyahu said the military officials told him

wonder if they had to consult the thesaurus on the phrasing for this one

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/06/hamas-israel-hunger-war-in-gaza

No matter what the cost.

Yemen's president says after Israel's strikes on Sana'a Airport that "there will be no retreat from supporting Gaza, no matter the cost", telling Israelis "from now on, stay in shelters, or leave to your homelands immediately, as your failed government can no longer protect you." pic.twitter.com/8ypQ2TbBPm

— Séamus Malekafzali (@Seamus_Malek) May 6, 2025