Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

the original one was looonng

It might be good to leave behind the thread title "Is this anti-semitism?" Asking/answering that question only occupies a small sliver of the discussion there. The broader topic deserves a thread that's less ambiguous.

yep. the de facto core thread on the subject having that title isn't great. it's funny with the guardian thread tho

I find the topic of antisemitism difficult to express my full opinions about, because it always feels like they will be used against Jews. I don't want to police the way other people experience things, but there is something very frustrating to watch about people who are relatively safe and privileged in life get overly worked up about what actually may be a large threat in their life. E.g. I think the issues of campus antisemitism and left antisemitism are simultaneously real and exaggerated. The idea that Jews are somehow no longer safe on college campuses is ridiculous, and yet there are also very real aggressions happening against Jews on college campuses of the type that would probably be made an issue of if they happened to any other minority group.

I think discomfort is often confused for lack of safety, but there are also real threats to safety, and I know that these reactions come from generational trauma, and that violence can rear its head any time. There have been real synagogue shootings in recent memory. Someone really did paint a Jewish star on a Jewish bakery in my town a few days ago, and then a Jewish star was painted on a home a couple of days after, along with a pentagram and what looked like "9/11" although I'm not sure. Maybe just a mentally unstable individual. Maybe that person is harmless or maybe they are violent.

I am always hesitant to minimize antisemitism, because it is real, and because it has been taken to worse heights in living memory, and because it can become exacerbated. And at the same time I don't feel comfortable with devoting too much attention to antisemitism that doesn't disrupt most of our lives while people are being killed in airstrikes.

The discourse around Palestine is also very challenging to navigate. The place where it bleeds into antisemitism is slippery, hard to pinpoint, just like with use of the "Z-word." "Free" is hard to argue with, "From the River to the Sea" is open to different interpretations, and I think different people mean different things by it, but it has definitely historically been used at times to mean "expel the Jews from all of Palestine," and I'm sure some people at rallies mean that today. Maybe some would argue that even this meaning isn't "antisemitic" because the Jews in Israel/Palestine are all just "colonizers." I feel like antisemitism in the Muslim world is a third rail that is difficult to talk about, but it is a significant phenomenon (and I will fully admit that racism in Israel and islamophobia in Israel are serious problems). It wasn't that long ago that Protocols of the Elders of Zion was made into a tv miniseries in Egypt. The book used to be a bestseller in many Muslim countries. I don't know if that's still the case. I don't really know what to do with this information exactly - it's not as though I assume most Muslims are antisemitic or anything like that, I just think the dynamic of prejudices is a bit more complex and multilayered than it is made out to be. Certain European antisemities also seem to be almost glad to have Israel as a vessel for their antisemitism.

At the same time, I can even kind of understand why Palestinians in the territories might hate Jews, if the primary face of Jews for them is settlers and the IDF.

Jews are a very small minority in the world. We are a minority that have kind of "punched above our weight" in success and privilege, and some of us get to be white in America, and we are also a minority with a long history of persecution and relatively short modern history of persecution being at much lower levels, but still have collective memory of that long history of persecution. I don't think that contemporary discourse on race and class has really figured out how Jews fit in to the whole thing.

*overly worked up about what may not actually be a large threat in their life.

great post man alive.

I think this has been discussed already on the threads at some point but one of the things that is most challenging for me is that the conflating of Israel and Jews happens across the political spectrum and with all sorts of valences, not only among those who use it as an antisemitic brush to tar Jews. I know A LOT of Jews who cry antisemitism at any Israel criticism because they really believe it for themselves - support for Israel is foundational to *their* Jewish identities, and they struggle to imagine any sort of meaningful Jewish identity that doesn't share that pillar (or if they can conceive of it, they denigrate it). Just today I got a group text from a friend about how "antisemitic messages" were being chalked around town. He sent a picture of one: it said "Free Palestine." In this climate it is just maddening to establish any solid ground to have these discussions from, about an uptick of actual bigotry against Jews - is there one, how big is it, how concerned should I be about it.

My wife's cousins just visited over the weekend. They're pretty conventionally liberal but take Judaism seriously, or at least one of them does. I brought up the "river to the sea" chant and made the devil's advocate argument that not everyone saying it is anti-Semitic, and they bristled, likening its defense to the bad faith defense of phrases like "all lives matter." It's not inherently offensive, or even literally offensive, but when you see an "all lives matter" sticker or sign you know what it means and generally who embraces it.

Of course, Jews have been primed to detect (and ignore) anti-Semitism to varying degrees for decades, because it's always around, unprompted, sometimes more virulent than other times but never totally absent, and definitely amplified (or minimized) by the context. For example, the Yiddish cultural center in the Bronx that was tagged with "Free Palestine:"

The Sholem-Aleichem Cultural Center in the Bronx was vandalized with "Free Palestine" graffiti. A Yiddish language cultural center, it's not a Zionist-related institution by a longshot. pic.twitter.com/jTI4ZWMD4E

— portnoy (@eddyportnoy) November 2, 2023

"Free Palestine" is not itself offensive, but tagging it on a Yiddish cultural center is an example of how it can be perceived that way. Or how, reportedly, the Philly Palestine Coalition circulated a list of 15,000 restaurants to boycott because they are "owned by Zionists." Which is to say, purportedly owned by or associated with Jews.

The conflation of Judaism with Israel is always a challenge. The relationship demands nuance, and nuance is the antithesis of angry protest. As I probably posted before, ignorance of Judaism is pretty widespread in the best of circumstances, imo, and can easily be exploited or otherwise be taken advantage of in the race to raise voices.

I heard a good interview with two local Reform rabbis yesterday, about how to support a grieving congregation when everyone is hurting but no two people may be hurting the same way, or for the same reason. But both rabbis noted that something in the air feels different this time, a release of generational trauma that's affecting everyone from kids to grandparents. I think a lot of that came from the simultaneous revelation of the specific horrors of Oct. 7 with the ramping up of anti-Israel protest, even before Israel's retaliation. It was like Jews had no time to mourn or process before they were immediately, inevitably put on the defensive again. It's emotionally exhausting, and while that's not the same thing as feeling physically threatened, Jews, like a lot of minorities, understand it doesn't take much to tip things in that direction. 

Similarly:
https://x.com/ElliotKaufman6/status/1721893935247966487?s=20

(across from an Orthodox synagogue)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-VlZ9saAAA0zOe?format=jpg&name=900x900

Are you saying that’s antisemitic? It’s not totally coherent but I’m not sure about antisemitic.

aiui, brooklyn has a very large jewish population and that's been the case for a long time. it also is experiencing gentrification. if anything, the 'settlers' in brooklyn would be hipster goyim. so maybe the point of that slogan was striving to raise issues of intersectionality. hard to say.

re: Brooklyn, they could be talking about Europeans buying the land that would become Brooklyn from the Canarsie Indians, but being that half of NYC's Jewish population lives in Brooklyn, that may be the anti-Semitic angle?

I talked to my brother the other day, he's active at his Brooklyn synagogue, which is apparently very lefty/activist. He's part of an anti-Zionist group there and they had been planning out a big potluck. Unfortunately, the scheduled date was Oct 8 and they stirred up a lot of controversy for going ahead with it right after the Hamas attack. According to him, the synagogue has both pro- and anti-Zionists groups, and even some pro-Hamas people! Sounds like it is a very hectic and stressful time for him and everyone there. I don't have much of a point with this other than the kinds of situations he described are way outside of my own personal experience living in suburban Texas.

xp
I guess this is my "as a Canadian" day on ilx. Settler has a very clear and unmistakable meaning in the context of Canadian leftism (= everyone who isn't Indigenous, while remembering the history of the slave trade) and wouldn't normally be antisemitic. But I agree that as a statement with no author or context it's pretty stupid, and it's unhelpful as a comment on an ongoing genocide. Plus as stated, posting near a synagogue absolutely opens the door to it being perceived as antisemitic.

even some pro-Hamas people

...

I was a bit shocked and incredulous about this, but I guess he meant people who are pro-armed struggle, don't know if that really makes it any better

The sticker is in Philly, not Brooklyn. ILXors understood the reference to large numbers of Jewish immigrants living in Brooklyn.

It's associating this with a "problem."

Real brain-dead, lizard brain stuff.

xp

good post man alive. especially identify with this part

I am always hesitant to minimize antisemitism, because it is real, and because it has been taken to worse heights in living memory, and because it can become exacerbated. And at the same time I don't feel comfortable with devoting too much attention to antisemitism that doesn't disrupt most of our lives while people are being killed in airstrikes.

never want to minimize anti-semitism, but i do want jewish people (at least the privileged people in my community) to get some perspective.

I asked my brother if any of these I/P slogans or demonstrations are happening at my nephew's junior high school. My brother says he is a lot more worried about my nephew growing up African-American with a potential Trump presidency.

I don't think any of these manifestations of Jewish hatred should be accepted. And yet it's also possible to keep them in perspective.

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

xp ah sorry I didn’t click through to the tweet. It being in Philly makes it unambiguous

Yesterday my wife and 6 yr old were walking by the catholic school which was letting out on the corner near our house when a bigger kid, but still elementary aged kid, came up to them, held up a cell phone with a picture of Hitler on it and said "what do you think about him?" or something.

My wife just pushed on by but contacted the school and they quickly saw the kid on security cameras and talked to him and his parents. Surprised it got that kind of response.

Can't even imagine what the kid was going on about or thinking. It's easy to just think "dumb, confused, asshole kid, no big deal" but also probably good to stop that kind of thing at the root.

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 7, 2023 10:56 AM bookmarkflaglink

Oh totally. I should have said that was my brother's perspective. Not that I have any claim to impose any chosen perspective on others.

Xp

A 6 year old? That's grim.

You have to wonder what led a kid to that point.

Kids can be so dumb and not really understand half the things they do or the impact/repercussions of their actions when it comes to stuff like this. In fourth or fifth grade, I gave my yearbook to a boy to sign. He passed it around to the others and they all drew swastikas and stuff implying that my dad was a naxi in it and all ove it because my dad is from Germany. I was upset. I think my mom had a meeting with the teacher. In the end though, I think those kids knew that was something bad but not really how bad. Maybe I'm being naive and they did. Kids can be idiots though and I think it's absolutely good to squash that. Sorry that happened though.

aiui, brooklyn has a very large jewish population and that's been the case for a long time. it also is experiencing gentrification. if anything, the 'settlers' in brooklyn would be hipster goyim. so maybe the point of that slogan was striving to raise issues of intersectionality. hard to say.

I'm imagining a kid who doesn't understand anything. Just knows something's supposed to be shocking or taboo and likes to fuck around. Just a kind of bullying. I don't imagine he's thinking "oh this kid is definitely half jewish" or even thinking much of anything? I don't know. I think my wife just told my daughter it was something he shouldn't be doing and she didn't ask more. I've had a lot of thoughts about how to talk about what's going on or if to talk about what's going on in general and haven't really. My wife told her a little bit, just explained there's some terrible stuff going on and it's making people very upset.

I can't imagine having to have or even think about having those conversations with a child. I am also inclined to think that the kid in question knows the guy is bad and gets a reaction from people so a kind of shock value thing but it's still terrible.

I feel like there was always one kid in school (in the 80's) who was obsessed with Nazis/Hitler/WWII. In high school, one of them was in my german class, and he called me a fag on a daily basis. He was actually Persian and I had to inform him that Hitler would have had him killed. I finally ratted him out to the teacher because his notebook was covered in swastikas.

I started reading the Gary Gulman memoir (he's a really funny comedian). A lot of it is about growing up poor, and Jewish, in Boston. Here's an excerpt of his discovery, in 2nd grade, so around age 6 or 7, of anti-Semitism, by way of his soon to be ex-best friend, Wally Mitler:

“But it was his Holocaust miniseries recap back when I was in Rand’s class that caused me the most pain. It had a permanent effect on our friendship and my self-image.

He had told me about the miniseries the day after it started airing in April 1978. We were playing catch on the side of my house. Wally was not good at baseball, but, like every other boy, he had a glove and played Little League. Playing Little League was basically compulsory in 1970s Massachusetts. He threw wrong and seldom caught the ball. He claimed he needed a new glove. No, he needed new hands.

I had been sent out of the family room and its door was shut when Holocaust premiered on NBC the night before. It was the talk of the town, especially among the town’s Jews. Our "Roots.”

I am not sure if I had even heard the word “Holocaust” before the series began to air, and I definitely knew none of the particulars. I had a fear of Hitler identical to my fear of the devil, but I’m not sure of its origin. If it was discussed around me, it was done quietly; my mother forbade the discussion of anything solemn or emotionally challenging in her presence. Wally, now an expert after having seen the program, filled me in on what happened to Jews during the Holocaust, sharing with me the unspeakable specifics. He said that Jews were burned alive in ovens and starved in camps. My people were also gassed with poison. I was horrified, hoping he would stop talking about it. But much like with his devil voice, I think he enjoyed unnerving me.

When his précis ended, I asked the unanswerable question. Why? Why did they do that to the Jews? What could we have done to deserve this? I was asking out of genuine curiosity, the same way when I was five, I had asked him what G-d looked like. But I also asked him because I knew that whatever he said would let me know what he thought about Jews. I understood, as early as kindergarten, that my people were the object of pervasive hatred.

“Why?” I asked.

Without any hesitation Wally gave me his analysis.

“The Jews were rich snobs … walking around with their noses in the air.”

He said this with certainty, like it was an indisputable fact and, what’s more disturbing, a valid explanation for Hitler’s atrocities.

There is no way Wally generated this explanation on his own. This was an idea an adult in his life must have expressed. Until that moment I’d never thought about how close Mitler is to Hitler. They’re one letter apart.
I’d bet that after watching the show he’d had the same question I just asked him. Instead of giving a historically accurate attempt at an answer, someone in his orbit must have said to him, “Well, kid, these kikes got too big for their britches and Uncle Adie had to put them in their place. Also, the numbers are exaggerated.”

Wally’s next move, and this was particularly sadistic, had been to let his favorite Hēb in on the exigency of the final solution.

No matter the provenance of his despicable “snobs” theory, once again my gut told me how I should respond and hammered me for resisting.

It was my fault. I had appeased Mitler. I should have fought him when he gave my dad the finger that time when we honked at him. And now, he’d gone too far.

I had let my dad down. Phil Gulman would fight you just for saying the word “Jew” in a less than reverent tone; surely, he would have torn the throat out of some Nazi spawn announcing that the Jews were to blame for the Holocaust.

“They were snobs.”

A good reason to dislike someone? Maybe. A defensible reason to torture and murder them? J-sus Chr-st.
I had to keep this to myself. If I shared this with anyone, they’d ask why I didn’t violently attack him. I did have an answer for that: I’m a coward. As evidenced by the fact that I couldn’t even defend the honor of my people. I said nothing and instantly hated myself. And I stayed friends with him. Like a schmuck.”

Ok so maybe some kids know a lot more by way of asshole parents but I still think that doesn't necessarily they grasp the impact of the words/actions.

Schmuck is SUCH a good word.

There are some people for whom no other word will do.

Also, having lived on the edge of Brookline for years, I wonder where in Boston he grew up and will check him out.

It looks like Peabody, I think?

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 7, 2023 1:56 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

look, i'm a jewish person, and i understand being nervous about the potential increase of anti-semitism in society. but i got a concerned message from my friend about a pro-palestinian march in brooklyn worried about me because he heard that they were "hunting jews." that just plain is not happening.

A relative of mine goes to the private girls’ school in London where some kid painted a swastika and “kill Jews” on the wall recently. On the one hand, you know it’s just some idiot kid, maybe’s not even a serious risk, maybe just a kid confusing righteous rebellion tor something stupider. On the other hand… who knows?

xpost Yeah, I wouldn't lose any sleep over that, either. That's like that day of global jihad, or whatever bullshit was foretold a few weeks ago. Though again, it's a fine line between "hunting Jews" and "targeted for being Jewish." Let's just say I wouldn't show up to that march waving an Israeli flag, or even holding a sign with a star of David on it. Unless it was, you know, depicted being tossed in the trash, that seems to be OK. (joke, sort of)

jewish voice for peace has the star of david in its logo.

i also wouldn't wave an israeli flag at a free palestine rally, idk why that would be so controversial.

Xposts ah ok - think that's north shore maybe near Salem

xpost Yeah, it would be pretty obnoxious. I think my point was that the protest itself should not strike fear into the hearts of Jews, let alone fear of being "hunted." But that it wouldn't take much provocation to invite negative attention.

Hey, good timing, Isaac:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/where-does-antisemitism-come-from

Lemme know if anyone needs it copy and pasted.

You heard about Paul Kessler then? That happened in what is considered a normal suburban enclave in LA.

I don't think anyone should be assaulted for counter protesting.

i also wouldn't wave an israeli flag at a free palestine rally, idk why that would be so controversial.

― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Tuesday, November 7, 2023 11:46 AM (one minute ago)

Just read this story of an 65 year old counter-prostestor waving an Israeli flag at a Free Palestine demonstration in suburban LA who was involved in a physical altercation and has died as result of a fall (witness details are mixed whether he was struck, or tripped and fell to the ground on his own). The other person (a 50 year old man) involved in the altercation is cooperating with authorities but there is a burst of social media claming this incident was anti-semitic/terrorist (source: my pro-Israel friends IG shared stories).

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-06/man-dies-after-fight-at-protest-westlake-village-israel-hamas-war

his discovery, in 2nd grade, so around age 6 or 7, of anti-Semitism, by way of his soon to be ex-best friend, Wally Mitler

Woah, Wally Mitler?

But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

xp to steve shasta, to be clear, i don't think the guy had it coming, obviously that's a terrible thing to happen. of course it's now going to be used as evidence that none of the hundreds of other worldwide protests were peaceful at all.

gyac, I really appreciate that.

Re: taking pain seriously, I agree that it's rarely as much as is warranted or needed, and regardless, it's not like sympathy can be quantified. But here's another story involving one of my kids that I can offer (I've probably told it before). A few years back some knucklehead scribbled racist and anti-Semitic stuff on a bathroom stall at the high school. There was the expected outrage, protests, eventually an assembly, but none of it ever addressed the specifically anti-Semitic aspect of the incident. My daughter came home that afternoon and basically asked, "what about us?" She's a strong kid, and the school responses have improved some since then, but I know she still carries that hurt with her. It's probably curdled into cynicism, which helps no one.

Re "settlers" -- there were a lot of arguments going around right after October 7 that the people who were killed were not civilians because they were "settlers." (This is not true by any international law standards btw, as they were living within the 1948 borders, not to mention that I would guess few of them were first generation in Israel). In that context, putting up a sign about "settlers" being "the problem" across from a synagogue seems like pretty clear intent to me.

of course it's now going to be used as evidence that none of the hundreds of other worldwide protests were peaceful at all.

― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Tuesday, November 7, 2023 12:05 PM bookmarkflaglink

I think there is a difficulty in engaging with this kind of claim if there appears to be a willful blind spot or what looks like an oblivious/disingenuous denial that some symbols of hatred are mixed with legitimate political protest. Kind of a mixed-motive situation.

Notice I didn't restrict this to pro Israel or pro Palestine.

Has this happened with other peaceful protests?

I should clarify as it may not have come across properly but I'm opposed to both invasions and occupations, this isn't to defend Israel.

I understand about the settlers, we see a similar dynamic in Crimea too, but I think democratic rights are usually categorised about what is within a countries actual borders not when they're invading someone else's. The problem is the invading and the occupying, which is bad.

Lots of countries allow citizens living outside their borders to vote, but plenty don't allow that. We don't factor that into whether we consider a country democratic or not though

the problem is considering democracy a binary state

is this true? I think its fairly well established there are lots of what might be classified as hybrid regimes, Turkey, Hungary, possibly the US

Maybe the difference you’re not seeing is that Gaza is not just a country that Israel is occupying but the result of an ethnic cleansing

Like the Palestinians should be where Israel is

democracy feels like a red herring here since there are no real democracies at the level of the state at best there are more and less democratic tendencies. it's not binary but if we want to consider bourgeois democracies with partial voting rights for bourgeois parties democratic it doesn't mean very much

re: ethnic cleansing in christian europe it's still happening constantly both directly and as outsourced to africa, the middle east, the ocean...

also germany has no right to exist and should have been abolished long ago

I think democratic rights are usually categorised about what is within a countries actual borders not when they're invading someone else's

Israel's invasion of the West Bank took place in 1967, it's not an active proposition. And the question of what Israel's "actual borders" are is really what this all boils down to.

RIght, but lets say Israel called it quits tomorrow and decided no longer to occupy either the West Bank or Gaza, would you then consider Israel to be a democracy?

does it matter

Israel's invasion of the West Bank took place in 1967, it's not an active proposition.

This is a stronger point, but I'd still say ending the occupation should be a major goal here, but yes indefinite occupations without formal annexation complicates answer

Lots of countries allow citizens living outside their borders to vote, but plenty don't allow that.

Israel allows all its citizens living in the West Bank to vote, but not any citizens living abroad, or even visiting another country. There is no absentee voting (with an exception for active duty military).

Practically speaking the West Bank is considered part of Israel for its Jewish residents, but not for its Arab residents.

does it matter

I'm not sure. I think to an extent yes, I think ending the occupations are less ambiguous goals and more manageable goals and should be disentangled from the question of whether Israel should exist at all (which has lower levels of support)

Why is this conversation taking place itt?

RIght, but lets say Israel called it quits tomorrow and decided no longer to occupy either the West Bank or Gaza, would you then consider Israel to be a democracy?

Can't wait.

Yeah there are definitely other threads for this question

Why is this conversation taking place itt?

indeed

is this true? I think its fairly well established there are lots of what might be classified as hybrid regimes, Turkey, Hungary, possibly the US

― anvil

the interesting thing to me is that with the breakdown of federal authority, the US is more a set of _multiple different_ hybrid regimes, each with differing levels of democracy. while all democracies tend to rig the game at least to some degree, structurally states like texas and florida are markedly less democratic than states like oregon or washington (like not saying that as a cascadian pride thing, it's just that i'm familiar with voting systems over here)

Why is this conversation taking place itt?

indeed

― famous instagram dog (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 9, 2024 1:38 PM (five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Started with Hillel saying it will not work with anyone who denies the right of Israel to exist "as a Jewish and democratic state"

but somehow we've moved on to "what is Democracy anyway?"

Started with Hillel saying it will not work with anyone who denies the right of Israel to exist "as a Jewish and democratic state"

this was alleged and not confirmed afaict

It's right here

https://www.hillel.org/israel-guidelines/

IIRC, the unconfirmed thing was a writer claiming that Hillel wouldn't accept *as a member* any Jewish person who called themselves anti-Zionist

where's the "what is democracy, anyway?" thread, i want to shitpost there

I would say it’s pretty clear from the way the guidelines are drafted that they don’t partner with or host organizations or speakers that are antizionist. It doesn’t say anything about barring individual antizionist students/members, in fact I’d say the guidelines imply the opposite.

agreed, I think the political pluralism section is pretty clear

Started with Hillel saying it will not work with anyone who denies the right of Israel to exist "as a Jewish and democratic state"

but somehow we've moved on to "what is Democracy anyway?"

― Never fight uphill 'o me, boys! (President Keyes), Thursday, May 9, 2024 10:46 AM bookmarkflaglink

"somehow" doing a ton of heavy lifting there, Keyes

yes, it was done by ilxors.

I'm surprised the NYT ran this good story.

Debate rages over the extent to which the protests on the political left constitute coded or even direct attacks on Jews. But far less attention has been paid to a trend on the right: For all of their rhetoric of the moment, increasingly through the Trump era many Republicans have helped inject into the mainstream thinly veiled anti-Jewish messages with deep historical roots.

The conspiracy theory taking on fresh currency is one that dates back hundreds of years and has perennially bubbled into view: that a shady cabal of wealthy Jews secretly controls events and institutions contrary to the national interest of whatever country it is operating in.

The current formulation of the trope taps into the populist loathing of an elite “ruling class.” “Globalists” or “globalist elites” are blamed for everything from Black Lives Matter to the influx of migrants across the southern border, often described as a plot to replace native-born Americans with foreigners who will vote for Democrats. The favored personification of the globalist enemy is George Soros, the 93-year-old Hungarian American Jewish financier and Holocaust survivor who has spent billions in support of liberal causes and democratic institutions.

Does it mention the Rothschilds? Soros is basically the new Rothschilds in the trope

It mentions the Protocols.

That's a good article about spreading antisemitic tropes. I wonder what goes through the minds of ilxors who also spread antisemitic tropes:

Scott just accused Sanders, who is Jewish, of "speaking with a forked tongue" in calling for a commitment not just to fight anti-Semitism but all forms of hatred.
— Dr. Mary Anne Franks (@ma_franks) May 7, 2024
― papal hotwife (milo z), Wednesday, 8 May 2024 00:31 (one week ago) link

And cloven hooves

― Are you addicted to struggling with your horse? (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 8 May 2024 01:21 (one week ago) link

We hear they drink children's blood.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 8 May 2024 01:23 (one week ago) link

With his receding hairline, Bernie has an increasingly hard time hiding his horns.

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Wednesday, 8 May 2024 02:26 (one week ago) link

I seriously wonder how people pass these on while nobody comments how vile these are. You can't criticize a joke for being racist and then proceed to tell the racist joke for laughs if you want to be taken seriously as someone who cares about countering racism.

actually you can, it’s called having a sense of humor, you could try it sometime

is there a reason why you think it's acceptable to constantly drop into the antisemitism thread to argue with Jews about whether their POVs are valid?

seems to happen a lot with this thread for some reason

I just went back through the past few months of posts in this thread, and in them I haven't argued about whether something is or isn't antisemitism. I made a rash point about the noxious doofus at Columbia who posted some violent rhetoric, clarified my point, and hell, Shakey even *agreed* with me about a point regarding Hillel's charter.

I apologize if I don't absolutely trust the intentions of a poster who shows up in politics threads to ask disingenuous questions and browbeat posters that she disagrees with. Fwiw, I can see the point— that repeating antisemitic tropes as a form of levity can merely reinscribe the antisemitism of the tropes— but the accusatory tone is a bit too much for me. While we can have different views of the various posters in question, I'm pretty sure that they're not trying to turn ILX into the St**mfront boards. It feels more like calling out than calling in, and as I've seen how the former can go, I'm a bit more of a fan of the latter.

Shakey even *agreed* with me about a point regarding Hillel's charter.

I did no such thing

inclined to agree with table here tbh. Any country where there's a state religion and/or explicitly priveleged ethnic class... the track record is not good. With Israel being created with this *specific* goal, is it really any surprise things turned out the way they did.

― famous instagram dog (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 9, 2024 9:27 AM (six days ago) bookmarkflaglink

perhaps this was a point that was extrapolated out during the conversation about democracy and Israel as mentioned in Hillel's charter, but still.

yeah that is not related to the Hillel charter, was agreeing with you more broadly that ethnostates are fundamentally undemocratic

otherwise I agree w man alive's assessment of the Hillel charter

You don't need to agree with every last thing in this thread, just have a little bit of awareness of how it comes across when you repeatedly feel the need to use it as a platform to aggressively debate and insult people posting about their discomfort with various antisemitic tropes and declarations. Perhaps winning your point isn't as important as you may think.

I will be more mindful.

Fwiw, I can see the point— that repeating antisemitic tropes as a form of levity can merely reinscribe the antisemitism of the tropes— but the accusatory tone is a bit too much for me.

This was all you had to say.

Now why don't you try keeping my name out of your accusatory mouth. People can read for themselves what my posts say.

I will be more mindful.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Wednesday, May 15, 2024 4:50 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Thanks. I really try not to spend a disproportionate amount of time focusing on this, but Jews feel very much in the world's fishbowl right now. There are only 15 million of us in the world (roughly the same # as pre-Holocaust) and half live in Israel. A huge percentage of us have family in Israel or family who took refuge in Israel at some point. I'm well aware that there are people who "weaponize" accusations of antisemitism, but I also think that we are hypersensitized to antisemitism. I don't necessarily have the same reactions as Shakey or Felicity, but I can understand them. The glibness with which a lot of non-Jewish people are now weighing in on what is and what isn't antisemitic and who the "real" antisemites are and which side they are on disturbs me. There *is* real antisemitism on the pro-Palestinian side. I'm not sure that calling it "left" is necessarily accurate, because a significant part of it comes from reactionary Muslim sources or conspiracy kooks that are merely aligned with the left on this issue. But it is real. Not to mention that, while anti-Zionism is not per se antisemitism, "zionist" has been used as a code word for Jews/Jewish conspiracy by antisemites for a very long time. So it can be easy to fall into paranoia about what people are really saying or thinking.

So I get it, forked tongue, what's next, horns? But when I'm reading tweets from supposed pro-Palestinian activists (who admittedly I don't actually know who they are IRL) about how "Zionists" control worldwide organ theft, it does feel a bit less funny.

fwiw I'm not sure anyone was trying to be funny. Just acknowledging the lineage and persistence of the tropes. But fair points.

Sure. And I didn't take offense at the posts themselves, fwiw, I was more using them as a jumping off point. And also, fwiw, I'm not familiar with "forked tongue" being an antisemitic trope, other than just I guess having some general evocation of devil? It seems like evangelical GOP folks accuse people of speaking with a forked tongue all the time.

Yeah, I think of "forked tongue" as a Biblical reference, the Garden of Eden and all that. I'm also not aware of it as specifically antisemitic — and a quick Google bears that out — but it is ascribing Satanic characteristics that feel close to horns etc. I would think best avoided under the circumstances, but I agree it's not a blatant invocation.

fwiw I'm not sure anyone was trying to be funny. Just acknowledging the lineage and persistence of the tropes. But fair points.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, May 16, 2024 7:05 AM bookmarkflaglink

tipsy, thank you.

I said "I wonder" since I wanted to leave open the possibility of mere thoughtlessness. You answered that.

What for you is "just" hypothetical abstract, language is for the target, when repeated, circulated, and shared online on a massive scale, especially with "we" and "them" in-group-out-group signaling, something that causes real psychological and emotional harm. It's dehumanizing language which has been used for centuries to justify violence against Jews. It's a mark of privilege that you don't need to consider it after you made your post whereas here I was carrying it around a week later wondering whether it's worth the typical ILX knee-jerk backlash to register my objection.

Antisemitism is in the air we breathe. It wears a deep groove in the history of Western thought. Antisemitism offers many pleasures: the lure of tradition, the thrill of transgressiveness, the high of moral superiority. I understand a lot of this is passed on thoughtlessly or without conscious bad intent. The way to respond is to make people aware of what they are doing and ask them to be more conscious.

You'd think lawyers would have evolved, but this is the crap we are still dealing with in my profession:

Two ex-Lewis Brisbois partners were pushed out of the boutique they started after their former firm released racist, sexist and antisemitic emails the partners wrote while employed there.

The remaining leaders at the boutique, which was formed by John Barber and Jeff Ranen, will start a new firm, said Tim Graves, chief executive officer at the operation that had been named Barber Ranen.

“Effective immediately, the firm has requested and accepted the resignations of John Barber and Jeffrey Ranen,” Graves said in a statement Monday. “The remaining equity partners express their disappointment and disdain for the language Mr. Barber and Mr. Ranen used.”

The partners’ former firm, Lewis Brisbois, shared a tranche of emails spanning more than a decade that show Barber and Ranen making disparaging remarks about female associates, clients and others, as well as using racist, antisemitic and anti-LGBTQ slurs.

“We are resigning from Barber Ranen effective immediately in order to allow our friends and colleagues to continue on without the cloud of our conduct hanging over them,” Ranen and Barber said in a joint statement.

They added, “We are ashamed of the words we wrote, and we are deeply sorry.”

Barber and Ranen were California-based leaders of Lewis Brisbois’s labor and employment group until last month, when they broke off from firm and took nearly 140 lawyers with them.

Lewis Brisbois opened an investigation into the two partners after receiving an “anonymous complaint” following their departure, the firm said in a statement Monday.

“Because the vast majority of these emails were sent in private between John Barber and Jeff Ranen, neither the Lewis Brisbois HR department nor the executive committee were made aware of their behavior until after the anonymous complaint first came in,” the firm’s statement said.

In one email, after Ranen complained about a female colleague’s overtime request, Barber told him to “kill her” through a sexual act. In another, Ranen mocked the religious practices of a Jewish attorney who asked not to be emailed during the sabbath.

Many states have training mandates for lawyers that require them to complete continuing education courses to topics related to ethics and bias. California requires lawyers to complete at least 25 hours of training every three years.

Emails from Barber and Ranen demonstrate the little quality control that state bar associations perform on these trainings, said Rima Sirota, a Georgetown University law professor.

“This kind of stuff is unethical,” Sirota said. “Most companies wouldn’t want to be associating with a firm with that kind of atmosphere.”

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/business-and-practice/ex-lewis-brisbois-partners-quit-firm-after-racist-sexist-emails

These weren't some white collar criminal defense attorneys. They were leaders of the labor and employment law group.

It really pains me to see this being taught to younger generations.

Yep, totally hear you. My own comment about drinking blood was a shorthand nod toward the way QAnon has updated and recirculated blood-libel slander and that all of these things are connected. But I realize that things that sound one way in conversation can scan differently in text. The point of all it being that antisemitism remains endemic in our social and political rhetoric.

The point of all it being that antisemitism remains endemic in our social and political rhetoric.

Thank you. And my point is we don't need to see a demonstration of the dog whistling to see that antisemitism in the air like wild yeast.

You can refer to "blood libels" and tropes, like the N-word, without inhabiting the role of a person who says slurs yourself.

I hear and affirm.

I am glad that we can all be gracious about this. The jokes actually did make me feel uncomfortable in the context of this thread… says the goy with a Jewish best friend