Anti-semitism thread: onwards from 2023

the original one was looonng

It might be good to leave behind the thread title "Is this anti-semitism?" Asking/answering that question only occupies a small sliver of the discussion there. The broader topic deserves a thread that's less ambiguous.

yep. the de facto core thread on the subject having that title isn't great. it's funny with the guardian thread tho

I find the topic of antisemitism difficult to express my full opinions about, because it always feels like they will be used against Jews. I don't want to police the way other people experience things, but there is something very frustrating to watch about people who are relatively safe and privileged in life get overly worked up about what actually may be a large threat in their life. E.g. I think the issues of campus antisemitism and left antisemitism are simultaneously real and exaggerated. The idea that Jews are somehow no longer safe on college campuses is ridiculous, and yet there are also very real aggressions happening against Jews on college campuses of the type that would probably be made an issue of if they happened to any other minority group.

I think discomfort is often confused for lack of safety, but there are also real threats to safety, and I know that these reactions come from generational trauma, and that violence can rear its head any time. There have been real synagogue shootings in recent memory. Someone really did paint a Jewish star on a Jewish bakery in my town a few days ago, and then a Jewish star was painted on a home a couple of days after, along with a pentagram and what looked like "9/11" although I'm not sure. Maybe just a mentally unstable individual. Maybe that person is harmless or maybe they are violent.

I am always hesitant to minimize antisemitism, because it is real, and because it has been taken to worse heights in living memory, and because it can become exacerbated. And at the same time I don't feel comfortable with devoting too much attention to antisemitism that doesn't disrupt most of our lives while people are being killed in airstrikes.

The discourse around Palestine is also very challenging to navigate. The place where it bleeds into antisemitism is slippery, hard to pinpoint, just like with use of the "Z-word." "Free" is hard to argue with, "From the River to the Sea" is open to different interpretations, and I think different people mean different things by it, but it has definitely historically been used at times to mean "expel the Jews from all of Palestine," and I'm sure some people at rallies mean that today. Maybe some would argue that even this meaning isn't "antisemitic" because the Jews in Israel/Palestine are all just "colonizers." I feel like antisemitism in the Muslim world is a third rail that is difficult to talk about, but it is a significant phenomenon (and I will fully admit that racism in Israel and islamophobia in Israel are serious problems). It wasn't that long ago that Protocols of the Elders of Zion was made into a tv miniseries in Egypt. The book used to be a bestseller in many Muslim countries. I don't know if that's still the case. I don't really know what to do with this information exactly - it's not as though I assume most Muslims are antisemitic or anything like that, I just think the dynamic of prejudices is a bit more complex and multilayered than it is made out to be. Certain European antisemities also seem to be almost glad to have Israel as a vessel for their antisemitism.

At the same time, I can even kind of understand why Palestinians in the territories might hate Jews, if the primary face of Jews for them is settlers and the IDF.

Jews are a very small minority in the world. We are a minority that have kind of "punched above our weight" in success and privilege, and some of us get to be white in America, and we are also a minority with a long history of persecution and relatively short modern history of persecution being at much lower levels, but still have collective memory of that long history of persecution. I don't think that contemporary discourse on race and class has really figured out how Jews fit in to the whole thing.

*overly worked up about what may not actually be a large threat in their life.

great post man alive.

I think this has been discussed already on the threads at some point but one of the things that is most challenging for me is that the conflating of Israel and Jews happens across the political spectrum and with all sorts of valences, not only among those who use it as an antisemitic brush to tar Jews. I know A LOT of Jews who cry antisemitism at any Israel criticism because they really believe it for themselves - support for Israel is foundational to *their* Jewish identities, and they struggle to imagine any sort of meaningful Jewish identity that doesn't share that pillar (or if they can conceive of it, they denigrate it). Just today I got a group text from a friend about how "antisemitic messages" were being chalked around town. He sent a picture of one: it said "Free Palestine." In this climate it is just maddening to establish any solid ground to have these discussions from, about an uptick of actual bigotry against Jews - is there one, how big is it, how concerned should I be about it.

My wife's cousins just visited over the weekend. They're pretty conventionally liberal but take Judaism seriously, or at least one of them does. I brought up the "river to the sea" chant and made the devil's advocate argument that not everyone saying it is anti-Semitic, and they bristled, likening its defense to the bad faith defense of phrases like "all lives matter." It's not inherently offensive, or even literally offensive, but when you see an "all lives matter" sticker or sign you know what it means and generally who embraces it.

Of course, Jews have been primed to detect (and ignore) anti-Semitism to varying degrees for decades, because it's always around, unprompted, sometimes more virulent than other times but never totally absent, and definitely amplified (or minimized) by the context. For example, the Yiddish cultural center in the Bronx that was tagged with "Free Palestine:"

The Sholem-Aleichem Cultural Center in the Bronx was vandalized with "Free Palestine" graffiti. A Yiddish language cultural center, it's not a Zionist-related institution by a longshot. pic.twitter.com/jTI4ZWMD4E

— portnoy (@eddyportnoy) November 2, 2023

"Free Palestine" is not itself offensive, but tagging it on a Yiddish cultural center is an example of how it can be perceived that way. Or how, reportedly, the Philly Palestine Coalition circulated a list of 15,000 restaurants to boycott because they are "owned by Zionists." Which is to say, purportedly owned by or associated with Jews.

The conflation of Judaism with Israel is always a challenge. The relationship demands nuance, and nuance is the antithesis of angry protest. As I probably posted before, ignorance of Judaism is pretty widespread in the best of circumstances, imo, and can easily be exploited or otherwise be taken advantage of in the race to raise voices.

I heard a good interview with two local Reform rabbis yesterday, about how to support a grieving congregation when everyone is hurting but no two people may be hurting the same way, or for the same reason. But both rabbis noted that something in the air feels different this time, a release of generational trauma that's affecting everyone from kids to grandparents. I think a lot of that came from the simultaneous revelation of the specific horrors of Oct. 7 with the ramping up of anti-Israel protest, even before Israel's retaliation. It was like Jews had no time to mourn or process before they were immediately, inevitably put on the defensive again. It's emotionally exhausting, and while that's not the same thing as feeling physically threatened, Jews, like a lot of minorities, understand it doesn't take much to tip things in that direction. 

Similarly:
https://x.com/ElliotKaufman6/status/1721893935247966487?s=20

(across from an Orthodox synagogue)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F-VlZ9saAAA0zOe?format=jpg&name=900x900

Are you saying that’s antisemitic? It’s not totally coherent but I’m not sure about antisemitic.

aiui, brooklyn has a very large jewish population and that's been the case for a long time. it also is experiencing gentrification. if anything, the 'settlers' in brooklyn would be hipster goyim. so maybe the point of that slogan was striving to raise issues of intersectionality. hard to say.

re: Brooklyn, they could be talking about Europeans buying the land that would become Brooklyn from the Canarsie Indians, but being that half of NYC's Jewish population lives in Brooklyn, that may be the anti-Semitic angle?

I talked to my brother the other day, he's active at his Brooklyn synagogue, which is apparently very lefty/activist. He's part of an anti-Zionist group there and they had been planning out a big potluck. Unfortunately, the scheduled date was Oct 8 and they stirred up a lot of controversy for going ahead with it right after the Hamas attack. According to him, the synagogue has both pro- and anti-Zionists groups, and even some pro-Hamas people! Sounds like it is a very hectic and stressful time for him and everyone there. I don't have much of a point with this other than the kinds of situations he described are way outside of my own personal experience living in suburban Texas.

xp
I guess this is my "as a Canadian" day on ilx. Settler has a very clear and unmistakable meaning in the context of Canadian leftism (= everyone who isn't Indigenous, while remembering the history of the slave trade) and wouldn't normally be antisemitic. But I agree that as a statement with no author or context it's pretty stupid, and it's unhelpful as a comment on an ongoing genocide. Plus as stated, posting near a synagogue absolutely opens the door to it being perceived as antisemitic.

even some pro-Hamas people

...

I was a bit shocked and incredulous about this, but I guess he meant people who are pro-armed struggle, don't know if that really makes it any better

The sticker is in Philly, not Brooklyn. ILXors understood the reference to large numbers of Jewish immigrants living in Brooklyn.

It's associating this with a "problem."

Real brain-dead, lizard brain stuff.

xp

good post man alive. especially identify with this part

I am always hesitant to minimize antisemitism, because it is real, and because it has been taken to worse heights in living memory, and because it can become exacerbated. And at the same time I don't feel comfortable with devoting too much attention to antisemitism that doesn't disrupt most of our lives while people are being killed in airstrikes.

never want to minimize anti-semitism, but i do want jewish people (at least the privileged people in my community) to get some perspective.

I asked my brother if any of these I/P slogans or demonstrations are happening at my nephew's junior high school. My brother says he is a lot more worried about my nephew growing up African-American with a potential Trump presidency.

I don't think any of these manifestations of Jewish hatred should be accepted. And yet it's also possible to keep them in perspective.

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

xp ah sorry I didn’t click through to the tweet. It being in Philly makes it unambiguous

Yesterday my wife and 6 yr old were walking by the catholic school which was letting out on the corner near our house when a bigger kid, but still elementary aged kid, came up to them, held up a cell phone with a picture of Hitler on it and said "what do you think about him?" or something.

My wife just pushed on by but contacted the school and they quickly saw the kid on security cameras and talked to him and his parents. Surprised it got that kind of response.

Can't even imagine what the kid was going on about or thinking. It's easy to just think "dumb, confused, asshole kid, no big deal" but also probably good to stop that kind of thing at the root.

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 7, 2023 10:56 AM bookmarkflaglink

Oh totally. I should have said that was my brother's perspective. Not that I have any claim to impose any chosen perspective on others.

Xp

A 6 year old? That's grim.

You have to wonder what led a kid to that point.

Kids can be so dumb and not really understand half the things they do or the impact/repercussions of their actions when it comes to stuff like this. In fourth or fifth grade, I gave my yearbook to a boy to sign. He passed it around to the others and they all drew swastikas and stuff implying that my dad was a naxi in it and all ove it because my dad is from Germany. I was upset. I think my mom had a meeting with the teacher. In the end though, I think those kids knew that was something bad but not really how bad. Maybe I'm being naive and they did. Kids can be idiots though and I think it's absolutely good to squash that. Sorry that happened though.

aiui, brooklyn has a very large jewish population and that's been the case for a long time. it also is experiencing gentrification. if anything, the 'settlers' in brooklyn would be hipster goyim. so maybe the point of that slogan was striving to raise issues of intersectionality. hard to say.

I'm imagining a kid who doesn't understand anything. Just knows something's supposed to be shocking or taboo and likes to fuck around. Just a kind of bullying. I don't imagine he's thinking "oh this kid is definitely half jewish" or even thinking much of anything? I don't know. I think my wife just told my daughter it was something he shouldn't be doing and she didn't ask more. I've had a lot of thoughts about how to talk about what's going on or if to talk about what's going on in general and haven't really. My wife told her a little bit, just explained there's some terrible stuff going on and it's making people very upset.

I can't imagine having to have or even think about having those conversations with a child. I am also inclined to think that the kid in question knows the guy is bad and gets a reaction from people so a kind of shock value thing but it's still terrible.

I feel like there was always one kid in school (in the 80's) who was obsessed with Nazis/Hitler/WWII. In high school, one of them was in my german class, and he called me a fag on a daily basis. He was actually Persian and I had to inform him that Hitler would have had him killed. I finally ratted him out to the teacher because his notebook was covered in swastikas.

I started reading the Gary Gulman memoir (he's a really funny comedian). A lot of it is about growing up poor, and Jewish, in Boston. Here's an excerpt of his discovery, in 2nd grade, so around age 6 or 7, of anti-Semitism, by way of his soon to be ex-best friend, Wally Mitler:

“But it was his Holocaust miniseries recap back when I was in Rand’s class that caused me the most pain. It had a permanent effect on our friendship and my self-image.

He had told me about the miniseries the day after it started airing in April 1978. We were playing catch on the side of my house. Wally was not good at baseball, but, like every other boy, he had a glove and played Little League. Playing Little League was basically compulsory in 1970s Massachusetts. He threw wrong and seldom caught the ball. He claimed he needed a new glove. No, he needed new hands.

I had been sent out of the family room and its door was shut when Holocaust premiered on NBC the night before. It was the talk of the town, especially among the town’s Jews. Our "Roots.”

I am not sure if I had even heard the word “Holocaust” before the series began to air, and I definitely knew none of the particulars. I had a fear of Hitler identical to my fear of the devil, but I’m not sure of its origin. If it was discussed around me, it was done quietly; my mother forbade the discussion of anything solemn or emotionally challenging in her presence. Wally, now an expert after having seen the program, filled me in on what happened to Jews during the Holocaust, sharing with me the unspeakable specifics. He said that Jews were burned alive in ovens and starved in camps. My people were also gassed with poison. I was horrified, hoping he would stop talking about it. But much like with his devil voice, I think he enjoyed unnerving me.

When his précis ended, I asked the unanswerable question. Why? Why did they do that to the Jews? What could we have done to deserve this? I was asking out of genuine curiosity, the same way when I was five, I had asked him what G-d looked like. But I also asked him because I knew that whatever he said would let me know what he thought about Jews. I understood, as early as kindergarten, that my people were the object of pervasive hatred.

“Why?” I asked.

Without any hesitation Wally gave me his analysis.

“The Jews were rich snobs … walking around with their noses in the air.”

He said this with certainty, like it was an indisputable fact and, what’s more disturbing, a valid explanation for Hitler’s atrocities.

There is no way Wally generated this explanation on his own. This was an idea an adult in his life must have expressed. Until that moment I’d never thought about how close Mitler is to Hitler. They’re one letter apart.
I’d bet that after watching the show he’d had the same question I just asked him. Instead of giving a historically accurate attempt at an answer, someone in his orbit must have said to him, “Well, kid, these kikes got too big for their britches and Uncle Adie had to put them in their place. Also, the numbers are exaggerated.”

Wally’s next move, and this was particularly sadistic, had been to let his favorite Hēb in on the exigency of the final solution.

No matter the provenance of his despicable “snobs” theory, once again my gut told me how I should respond and hammered me for resisting.

It was my fault. I had appeased Mitler. I should have fought him when he gave my dad the finger that time when we honked at him. And now, he’d gone too far.

I had let my dad down. Phil Gulman would fight you just for saying the word “Jew” in a less than reverent tone; surely, he would have torn the throat out of some Nazi spawn announcing that the Jews were to blame for the Holocaust.

“They were snobs.”

A good reason to dislike someone? Maybe. A defensible reason to torture and murder them? J-sus Chr-st.
I had to keep this to myself. If I shared this with anyone, they’d ask why I didn’t violently attack him. I did have an answer for that: I’m a coward. As evidenced by the fact that I couldn’t even defend the honor of my people. I said nothing and instantly hated myself. And I stayed friends with him. Like a schmuck.”

Ok so maybe some kids know a lot more by way of asshole parents but I still think that doesn't necessarily they grasp the impact of the words/actions.

Schmuck is SUCH a good word.

There are some people for whom no other word will do.

Also, having lived on the edge of Brookline for years, I wonder where in Boston he grew up and will check him out.

It looks like Peabody, I think?

I totally get that. But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

― Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, November 7, 2023 1:56 PM (thirty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

look, i'm a jewish person, and i understand being nervous about the potential increase of anti-semitism in society. but i got a concerned message from my friend about a pro-palestinian march in brooklyn worried about me because he heard that they were "hunting jews." that just plain is not happening.

A relative of mine goes to the private girls’ school in London where some kid painted a swastika and “kill Jews” on the wall recently. On the one hand, you know it’s just some idiot kid, maybe’s not even a serious risk, maybe just a kid confusing righteous rebellion tor something stupider. On the other hand… who knows?

xpost Yeah, I wouldn't lose any sleep over that, either. That's like that day of global jihad, or whatever bullshit was foretold a few weeks ago. Though again, it's a fine line between "hunting Jews" and "targeted for being Jewish." Let's just say I wouldn't show up to that march waving an Israeli flag, or even holding a sign with a star of David on it. Unless it was, you know, depicted being tossed in the trash, that seems to be OK. (joke, sort of)

jewish voice for peace has the star of david in its logo.

i also wouldn't wave an israeli flag at a free palestine rally, idk why that would be so controversial.

Xposts ah ok - think that's north shore maybe near Salem

xpost Yeah, it would be pretty obnoxious. I think my point was that the protest itself should not strike fear into the hearts of Jews, let alone fear of being "hunted." But that it wouldn't take much provocation to invite negative attention.

Hey, good timing, Isaac:

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/where-does-antisemitism-come-from

Lemme know if anyone needs it copy and pasted.

You heard about Paul Kessler then? That happened in what is considered a normal suburban enclave in LA.

I don't think anyone should be assaulted for counter protesting.

i also wouldn't wave an israeli flag at a free palestine rally, idk why that would be so controversial.

― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Tuesday, November 7, 2023 11:46 AM (one minute ago)

Just read this story of an 65 year old counter-prostestor waving an Israeli flag at a Free Palestine demonstration in suburban LA who was involved in a physical altercation and has died as result of a fall (witness details are mixed whether he was struck, or tripped and fell to the ground on his own). The other person (a 50 year old man) involved in the altercation is cooperating with authorities but there is a burst of social media claming this incident was anti-semitic/terrorist (source: my pro-Israel friends IG shared stories).

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-11-06/man-dies-after-fight-at-protest-westlake-village-israel-hamas-war

his discovery, in 2nd grade, so around age 6 or 7, of anti-Semitism, by way of his soon to be ex-best friend, Wally Mitler

Woah, Wally Mitler?

But imagine the response to any other marginalized group's discomfort being "get some perspective."

xp to steve shasta, to be clear, i don't think the guy had it coming, obviously that's a terrible thing to happen. of course it's now going to be used as evidence that none of the hundreds of other worldwide protests were peaceful at all.

gyac, I really appreciate that.

Re: taking pain seriously, I agree that it's rarely as much as is warranted or needed, and regardless, it's not like sympathy can be quantified. But here's another story involving one of my kids that I can offer (I've probably told it before). A few years back some knucklehead scribbled racist and anti-Semitic stuff on a bathroom stall at the high school. There was the expected outrage, protests, eventually an assembly, but none of it ever addressed the specifically anti-Semitic aspect of the incident. My daughter came home that afternoon and basically asked, "what about us?" She's a strong kid, and the school responses have improved some since then, but I know she still carries that hurt with her. It's probably curdled into cynicism, which helps no one.

Re "settlers" -- there were a lot of arguments going around right after October 7 that the people who were killed were not civilians because they were "settlers." (This is not true by any international law standards btw, as they were living within the 1948 borders, not to mention that I would guess few of them were first generation in Israel). In that context, putting up a sign about "settlers" being "the problem" across from a synagogue seems like pretty clear intent to me.

of course it's now going to be used as evidence that none of the hundreds of other worldwide protests were peaceful at all.

― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Tuesday, November 7, 2023 12:05 PM bookmarkflaglink

I think there is a difficulty in engaging with this kind of claim if there appears to be a willful blind spot or what looks like an oblivious/disingenuous denial that some symbols of hatred are mixed with legitimate political protest. Kind of a mixed-motive situation.

Notice I didn't restrict this to pro Israel or pro Palestine.

Has this happened with other peaceful protests?

https://www.ktvu.com/news/oakland-cafe-ousts-man-over-religious-symbol-baseball-hat

Russell said this isn't the first time the cafe has raised eyebrows.

Earlier this month, it introduced a new menu, including a drink called "Iced in Tea Fada," named after "intifada," or Palestinian uprising.

long way to go for a pun

Have you been to a “craft cocktail” bar lately? All the puns are awful.

I think if this guy is going into businesses he knows are run by fervent anti-Zionists in an attempt to get a rise out of the owner that he can film and make viral, I sympathize with the cafe. If he was, as he says, just a guy walking in so his kid could pee and the owner lost it because of the hat, I sympathize with the guy.

anybody wearing a religious symbol on a hat is probably just a jerk imo. I mean who does that. It's not like you can point to a verse in Leviticus where there's some instructions about wearing a baseball hat with a star of david on it.

was it antisemitism that got him thrown out? I dunno, I agree with eephus' "it depends" response.

I assume it was an Israeli flag hat, don't think I've ever seen any other Magen David hats. Which would explain why the owner was provoked.

Eephus OTM that it was obnoxious if intentional on the guy's part. The cafe is named Jerusalem Coffee House however, so maybe the guy thought Israeli stuff was welcome there.

it's a real microcosm of a larger issue

honestly in the Bay Area my kneejerk assumption is that any business with "Jerusalem" in the name is most likely run by a Palestinian family (like the Old Jerusalem restaurant in my neighborhood)

countless Jewish organizations use the Star of David as part of their logo and iconography, very easy to imagine him wearing a hat from an Israel trip, charity run, youth group, synagogue softball team, etc. Like y'all said, impossible to know from this if he was being intentionally provocative, but it's not hard to imagine that he wasn't

"You're being asked to leave. You're causing a disruption. This is a private business. You're being asked to leave," the owner of Jerusalem Coffee House at 54th Street and Telegraph Avenue told Jonathan Hirsch as Hirsch recorded the confrontation on Saturday afternoon.

"This gentleman asked me to leave because of my hat," Hirsch can be heard saying on the video.

The owner responded, "This is a violent hat, and you need to leave."

"My hat is violent?" Hirsch asked.

"Yes," the owner said.

In an interview with KTVU on Tuesday, Hirsch said, "I wear this hat all the time. I mean, I've had this hat for years. And it means a lot to me. It's meant a lot more over the last year."

The last line in particular suggests it's an Israeli flag rather than a synagogue group.

Watch the video. It's a star of David.

The guy doesn't strike me as a provocateur. And the restaurant owner seems like a total antisemite.

The calling the cops thing was a weird flex to me … especially considering it’s Oakland… where over the weekend a woman walking home from a bar got beaten and stomped for wearing a dodgers hat, is what it sounds like the motivation was.

The restaurant owner: "I'm calling the cops, even though it's against my ethos."

lol I completely missed the video. Yeah that's garbage.

It isn’t clear who called the cops tbh. I’ve seen altercations where someone says “you can call the police” and then the person who suggested it is the one who does it.

Like if it was the owner who did, I would think the guy would have documented that call as evidence.

Also the restaurant owner.

Why does it matter who called the police?

those are uh some real choices re: drink names

Why does it matter who called the police?

ok

Also it makes the owner’s statement equating talking to the press with talking to the cops seem weird

yeah, but on the video he says he's going to call the cops

Is it okay to threaten people with the cops if you don't actually intend to call them because you aren't a narc?

ok I watched the video yeah that owner's being a dick/antisemite

the hat... I mean, I wouldn't wear it but it's not an Israeli flag

Where is the owner threatening to call the cops? Apologies if I am missing something obvious

The part I quoted earlier: “I will call the police, even though it’s against my ethos.”

the jokey drink names really trivialize something important imo

An example of how a combination of general ignorance and social media can lead even an ostensibly well-intentioned voice of dissent down some dark and dumb roads:

https://jewishinsider.com/2024/10/new-chicago-education-board-president-has-history-of-antisemitic-pro-hamas-facebook-posts/

https://archive.ph/kpOoB

this happened with a friend in our parent group (thankfully not in an elected/appointed position of power) where he just went all-in on posting whatever anti-Israeli stuff came across his feed and of course it very quickly spiraled way out of control. I imagine we are all familiar with this dynamic by now.

i had to unfollow an acquaintance bc of shit like that

many such cases

I haven't spoken to an old girl/friend in months as she was posting shit on Instagram like 'The Zionists control everything!'
I told her: look I get what you're saying but be careful with that language, you sound like a Proud Boy

She blocked me for awhile, which is fine, but we seem to be mending the bridge

Do you think it’s antisemitism?

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:47 AM bookmarkflaglink

That I, or table, or gyac, or mookieproof, or glumdalitch, have some - perhaps unconscious - bias against Jews which is tilting us against you, or against Israel’s actions?

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:48 AM bookmarkflaglink

I realise it’s a pointed question but you have been insinuating this for months - speaking of “dogwhistly white noise” - so it would be great to hear you just say it, so we can deal with it head on. If not, perhaps we could put that behind us?

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:53 AM bookmarkflaglink

I would love to get this behind us. I am getting the ball rolling with this post.

So I will definitely answer (and hopefully it's a good discussion) but prior to that you said

If you actually believed that Israel is in the middle of perpetrating a world historical crime that will bring shame to its project for centuries to come - as it is - you would probably not need to link to specific posts to prove it. So there’s something else going on besides awareness of search function. Don’t you think?

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:44 AM bookmarkflaglink

Just backing up, I thought there was a bit of goalpost moving there between xyzzzz saying that I have "not even [been] posting about atrocities carried out in the other Levant thread" and me posting posts to show that I have in fact made posts about that.

Before we move on .... do we agree now that I have been "posting about other atrocities carried out in the other Levant thread"?

Ok you posted those things. Agreed.

Great, thanks. Do you want to talk more offline, or here?

I’m not the only poster you’ve insinuated antisemitic motives to so here seems like a better place. However if you feel like I’m putting you on the spot I understand.

If someone seems like they are sincerely trying to understand antisemitism, and how they can do better, like you are, right now, I have a lot of time for them.

I think bringing this up with a friend is a delicate and difficult conversation to have even one-on-one with a person who wants to have it.

So, backing up to what brought us here, I generally don't think anyone likes having their posts on ILX misrepresented. It happens. If I do not clear up a false statement about my posting, others may repeat it, and add on, and it can get very ugly. And so, to answer your questions, I can think something "is going on" when I call out you and xyzzzz for misstating my post history and yet not know if it is antisemitism or bias or just a slip of the mind.

Something like that happened recently on the Democratic (Direction) Thread, with (sic) in fact. They misremembered a post by me, that could not have possibly been mine. I corrected it (and I was curious) but let it go. But it definitely happened.

I think people can at times make statements or interjections that are totally innocent yet also carry some unintended meaning. Some people take this well, some people take some kinds of feedback poorly and get defensive.

What brought us here were your and xyzzz's comments on my post history. I did feel there might have been a little goalpost-moving since you asked me about a group of posters who are not xyzzz. But since you and xyzzz have posted about my post history, I would suggest searching your and xyzzz's post history in this antisemitism thread.

I do have something I want to show you regarding that Burlington, VT city referendum on apartheid you posted. Maybe I could show you that and we could start there?

I think your posts suck, you’re a zionist and genocide denier, and I can’t understand how you haven’t been banned yet

other than the fact that there are clearly a lot of fellow genocide deniers here!

Tracer, I was interested in your post on this city council referendum in Burlington that you posted here:

Burlington, VT city council considering a ballot initative to become America's first "Apartheid Free City"

This is a movement started by the Quaker American Friends Service Committee

https://secure.afsc.org/a/apartheid-free-communities-donate

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Monday, December 16, 2024 9:52 AM bookmarkflaglink

They had a hearing on it today. Here is the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KlwfdYJuJI

The debate on the measure starts at about with the people opposing it from 47:05-1:23, to the people for it from about 1:23 to 1:24 onwards.

The people in the first half are talking about some things they are concerned about, like how they feel putting this on the ballot relates to their kids getting bullied at school for being Jewish, or having pennies thrown at them, etc. One guy is even a mediator offering to mediate with the other side.

And the people in the second half are understandably passionate about wanting to stop apartheid and stop genocide, and I found them pretty persuasive as well. I can only try to understand how horrific the shooting was at UVM directed at Palestinian students, leaving one in a wheelchair, how utterly demoralizing and enraging that might be, along with the absence of Palestinian representation in US media, absence of a Palestinian speaker at the DNC. Like what is being discussed in the Ta-Nehisi Coates thread.

So for this thread, I think if I were a parent there in Vermont I would not want my kids subjected to antisemitic bullying for being "Zionists" or Jewish or Israeli, and a few people seemed to think this measure was contributing to that, and I wondered what you thought of that viewpoint? Or any other thoughts or suggestions?

...when I call out you and xyzzzz for misstating my post history and yet not know if it is antisemitism or bias or just a slip of the mind.

you can't be certain whether it's an error or if it was done because you're jewish?

sorry to butt in

hi conrad, no worries. (btw, are you conrad I have met in LA?)

The question I was answering right there was in between 4 posts in a row:

If you actually believed that Israel is in the middle of perpetrating a world historical crime that will bring shame to its project for centuries to come - as it is - you would probably not need to link to specific posts to prove it. So there’s something else going on besides awareness of search function. Don’t you think?

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:44 AM bookmarkflaglink

Yes I think there is. I don't think this is the thread to litigate my motive though.

― felicity, Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:46 AM bookmarkflaglink

Do you think it’s antisemitism?

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:47 AM bookmarkflaglink

That I, or table, or gyac, or mookieproof, or glumdalitch, have some - perhaps unconscious - bias against Jews which is tilting us against you, or against Israel’s actions?

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:48 AM bookmarkflaglink

I realise it’s a pointed question but you have been insinuating this for months - speaking of “dogwhistly white noise” - so it would be great to hear you just say it, so we can deal with it head on. If not, perhaps we could put that behind us?

― Humanitarian Pause (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, December 17, 2024 11:53 AM bookmarkflaglink

So it's a little confusing when you're talking online sometimes, but the first question was "So there’s something else going on besides awareness of search function. Don’t you think?" In my mind, "something" could mean anything, but I was trying to read the question generously so I answered as I did.

Does that make sense?

it's confusing - I can't tell what "So there’s something else going on besides awareness of search function. Don’t you think?" is driving at. I could take a guess but it would just be a guess. do you think the implication is "it's because you're jewish"?

(no, I'm not conrad you've met in LA!)

What I was driving at - sorry for lack of clarity - is that if you find yourself needing to “prove” that you care about Palestinian lives by digging up old posts then you have clearly been failing to convey that. It’s not just that the rest of us aren’t able to use the search function, it’s that you routinely dismiss or whatabout the big story, the main story for the last year, that of the destruction of Palestine. That is the “other thing” besides our reading comprehension. BUT it seems that you feel differently. That many here don’t give you the credit we should for seeing all sides of the conflict. And it seems to me that you feel there is antisemitism involved - not just in this specific case where you are posting your “I care” bonafides and not getting credit for it, but in more broadly. So I’d like to understand why.