new-nu-Who: RTD2 (Doctor Who on telly 2023-?)

For discussion of the second era of Russell T Davies writing & producing and Julie Gardner and Jane Tranter producing Dr. Who.

So far 01: four wraparound "Tales Of The TARDIS" intros for streaming repeats of Earthshock, first one here

(wraparounds for Mind Robber and Fenric were written by Pete McTighe, wraparounds for Varos, 3Docs and Time Meddler by Phil Ford.)

So far 02: A comedy sketch for Children In Need

Today: The Star Beast (adapting elements of the Mills & Gibbons strip from 1980, based on a rejected Mills & Wagner TV pitch, collected in The Iron Legion paperback), the first of three weekly 60th anniversary Tennant/Tate specials, now on BBC iPlayer and now or soon on Disney Plus anywhere else that has Disney Plus.

(A Christmas special with Ncuti Gatwa in the lead is likely to air one month from today, but not confirmed yet.)


Previous chitchat here.

we kinda thought this was trash

I really loved it, not just for nostalgia, and even the bits that I rolled my eyes at (binary/non-binary) I was at least aware that it would be winding up the worst people in the world.

it all felt like setup

maybe we should have just waited to watch until next week

There were six Tales of the TARDIS episodes.

Fun! Liked it.

Eyeroll/winding up OTM

Thought this was run of the mill RTD as a story without any particular lols but otherwise doing its job and the TARDIS interior was pretty cool.

Agree it was run of the mill in some ways but what a relief after the last lot. And it still leaped over the low bar set by Chibnall.

I am looking forward to (allegedly) however RTD lampshades Flux destroying the universe.

There were six Tales of the TARDIS episodes.

I believe if you tally the six that I listed, they will add up to six

four wraparound "Tales Of The TARDIS" intros

If only I had thought to include any other words in that sentence, or post.

this was fine, perhaps even good - my 11 year old watched happily (although I think he slumped over a bit during that last TARDIS chat)

was surprised by how continuity-heavy it was, i thought they might try and make a tidier jumping-on point for a new Disney audience

This was great

Somehow I completely missed that Rose was trans in the promo run-up; I thought they handled that very Whoishly

Somehow I completely missed that Rose was trans in the promo run-up; I thought they handled that very Whoishly

as someone who likes, essentially, two of RTD's first-round episodes (and hugely enjoyed or admired every piece of his output since), I went into this expecting to at best quietly respect his ability to craft broad, populist entertainment that isn't to my taste in same.

that said, twelve seconds in: omg the recap, the exposition, the emotion, what a piece of craft for that returning anniversary audience

thirteen seconds in: AN OLD DOCTOR WHO MATERIALIZED DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM CYBERDOG rusty you pop whore ilu

murray can fuck off tho

12.5 seconds in: mills AND gibbons story credit IN THE OPENING TITLES heart eyes emoji

one hour later: what a delight. playing the nostalgia mystery both as a completely new riff on old-doctor-for-anniversary trope and drawing back the casual general audience. madeley/tennant chemistry not only immediately on the level of pertwee/unit (in a way the TV version of KLS never approached) but also reminiscent of the only good thing abt Partners In Crime. the meep/wrarth twist handled fantastically by both the script and Margolyes. every time I eyerolled at something being handled way too obvi, I was won over to the big emotion play within seconds. Talalay getting to play comedy in a way that suits her but she's not been given on the show before (could have been much more of this but it was still nice to see). Tate absolutely COOKING. Shaun new MVP of the family-used-as-exposition-through-character. (and after Bill looked SO like Sharon that I wondered if it even occurred to Moffatt, there are enough connex in the Sharon -> Bill -> nu-Rose sequence that it adds extra anniversary fan-candy nuance)

lol @ me: during the crawl through the terrace attics, I was like "now THIS is how you use this setting for stakes, unlike in my possible favourite ep of all time" then it being overturned TWICE in a way that would have made me go triple-aldo in the OG RTD era.

and oh yeah the new TARDIS interior! I rarely care much about the revisions, but as an '80s Who baby, huge white walls that are mostly roundels FEELS "right" in a way that also pushed happy buttons for the anniversary.

otoh “just let go”.

TARDIS interior was cool tho.

was surprised by how continuity-heavy it was, i thought they might try and make a tidier jumping-on point for a new Disney audience

I didn't see anything of the Chibnall run but have seen all of the first RTD and the Moffat series. Is anything Chibnall necessary or advantageous to jump back in with the new specials?

All you need to know is that the Doctor was a woman at one point, really

(two points?)

ha nope not required, you are well-advised to stay away from the chibnall era! new ep really only refers back to the end of the Donna run - and there are plenty of (slightly awkward) refreshers - i guess the basic setup is basic enough and simply explained - donna can’t remember the doctor - but all the extra detail and lingo was quite confusing for the very casual viewers in my house

i, as usual, lost interest about 30 minutes in. and having watched a dozen or so of the old 25 minute episodes i think a large part of what's missing, for me, is the cliffhangers (along with the more digestible length)

nice to see DT back though. thought new tardis was too big if anything, not that it matters given the nature of the thing.

murray can fuck off tho

Honestly think this guy has ruined Who far more than Chibnall. The new theme is terrible and within minutes was sick of the usual overblown score.

Although it was trailer-spoiled I did like the ET bit. Don't suppose there was a bit like that in the comic story so it turns out Spielberg ripped it off?

And I am looking forward to the NPH/Celestial Toymaker one honest.

So RTD technobabble is back in a big way huh?

This was mostly decent, Tate and Tennant are such a fun team.

i may have to watch that ending again but i don’t know how I feel about the implication that the metacrisis made Rose trans, and that was also maybe why she chose her name. (Also I don’t buy that she wouldn’t get into the Tardis with Donna and the Doctor at the end.)

I harp about this a lot, but in his New Adventures novel, RTD had a character from the future bone a bone a gay character in the middle of a stakeout at the height of the AIDS epidemic so that the 80s character could develop HIV-immunity from an injection of 30th-century sperm so that whole denouement read to me like someone was reining RTD’s worse storytelling impulses in a bit

I guess it was a blowjob rather than full-on anal but still wildly out of character

holy shit

I must have some kind of Stockholm Syndrome with Murray Gold, because although he's still very annoying, it feels much more like "real Who is back" when he's clodding over everything.

The new theme tune is multiple squares of OTT, but sort of exciting too? The original Ecclestone theme is still his best one.

My personal cringezone with New Adventures is Ace storming off at the end of "Love and War", a very terrible bit of writing (by Paul Cornell)

This was merely boring instead of an immediate hate watch which is a clear improvement over the last couple seasons. 50-something minutes felt long, and some of the scenes (rescue from Chez Noble) could have been edited way down.

I really enjoyed this

I loved the pacing, like backstory/new alium invasion/old characters/new characters; it’s all moving along on rails simultaneously in an adept way

Donna/Doctor moments were all gold, such good emotional moments throughout from all of them honestly

A timely reminder that once upon a time even generic Doctor Who episodes were very entertaining!

murray can fuck off tho

His action cues are no worse than standard Hollywood scores really, but when he goes for emotional or god forbid comical it's unbearable.

Yeah was watching unicorn and the wasp last week. Very generic but lots of fun. It has a certain ease with just existing on simple terms, which Moffat’s period struggled with

when he goes for emotional or god forbid comical it's unbearable

I counted at least three scenes where I essentially thought "There's some really good acting here with stakes. Sure wish I could pay attention to it because of all the fucking sonic glop over it."

(Fun episode, I'll add.)

Also, a massive bravo for choosing his first episode back to send an unequivocal message to young trans fans.

And enjoyed how Rose's identity was actually used in the plot resolution rather than just being a thing her character was (Admittedly in a slightly hokey way, but hey it's Dr Who)

a LOT of oof in the resolution, but the Doctor's "oh, I do that!" re pronouns earlier was such a beast line that it outweighs anything else.

agree w those last three posts

I had a disparaging comment about RTD’s usual mode of subtlety that read as mean to unintended targets when I started typing it but suffice to say it could have been about a billion times more awful, so I’m relieved that I only ended up rolling my eyes a bit

xxpost yeah i liked that line !

Tennant is extremely comfortable in this role, it’s a joy to watch him just dominate the screen even when taking the sonic screwdriver to new levels of wtf

on dr who confidential there's a great bit where the writers of the original comic are visiting and DT basically interrupts to tell them how much of a fan he is

(Dave Gibbons was the artist - equally important as an author, just noting ftr.)

(and wagner wasn't there. yeah, was using shorthand)

I am seeing some absolutely DERANGED ranting about this harmless, charming episode, mostly centered around the “men can’t let things go” line which honestly I didn’t even register when I watched it, possibly because I was also wrangling my kids

ofc now i can’t remember where i thought i saw this

yeah bit od internet trawling suggests i dremt this or something.

He’s Christopher Marlowe in a West End play about young Marlowe and Shakespeare later this summer.

We were fortunate to have Tennant as long as we did - Smith too really but it just shouldn't be this difficult to keep a Doc and companion locked down for at least three years (ofc it depends a lot on showrunner tenure too).

Did lol at the reference to Whittaker not being Tennant, and it was good to see her being not Chinballed into mediocrity. But otherwise that was a whole ton of zzzz and pointlessness with a good dollop of wtf right at the end. Belinda's story arc was terrible.

sorry fizzles: wot does this mean “cognosc in tyrol cognomen ems”?

sorry VG - bit compressed, emsworth’s cognomen “Cognosc in Tyrol” - a fairly obscure Fall reference.

just shouldn't be this difficult to keep a Doc and companion locked down for at least three years

the entire business of international TV production & distribution and Labor compensation shouldn’t have been upended by a tech company in swift violation of a took-decades-to-build web of international laws, but here we are in 2025

(watching a season of television that functionally started production in 2022)

^^^
One of my neighbours is an actor who tells me that before streamers, she’d book a job and be paid for six months even if she was only needed on set for six weeks of that. Now, terms are that she has to be unavailable for other work for six months, but she’s only paid for the six weeks she’s on set. And the money’s not as good as before streaming!

Plus the idea of a broadcaster or streamer committing to something for three years upfront is unheard of now. It sounds, to all intense and purposes, that this was a commission for 26 episodes, rather than X number of seasons, and the decisions on how to allocate that (3 x anniversary specials, 2 x 8-ep series, 2 x Christmas eps, 5 x spinoff eps) came downstream.

Way behind you all but happy to read reactions to Lucky Day were negative here. Watched that yesterday and still thinking about how bad it was.

Partially it's just the lost opportunity: it is interesting to ponder how much yer average earthling knows about all the shit going on, and having UNIT and the Doctor be called on their total lack of oversight could go cool places, certainly there's precedent there within sci fi and superhero stories. Shake up the status quo a bit. But no.

Particularly cringe that the final drop for UNIT was dude sullying the name of the Brigadier: pandering to Whovian nostalgia, making a woman's main motivation to honour her daddy and playing to loyalty for Are Brave Boys at once.

functionally started production in 2022

Gatwa's first shoot was July 2022, so pretty close to three years!


sounds, to all intensive porpoises, that this was a commission for 26 episodes

It was publicly announced in 2022 that 26 episodes was what Disney had signed on for (after Bad Wolf had paid for the 3 x anniversary specials, but including them), and no decision would be made about another co-pro until after TX of S2.

Well I'm sure you know I meant three years worth of actual typical episodic seasonal content :) I'd rather have a year gap if it means substantially more viewing time of a particular Doc than this nonsense.

also because I don’t think anyone has addressed it particularly I have zero interest in Billie Piper as some temporary not-quite-Doctor and felt only crushing exhaustion at that reveal

watched The Power Of Three with my kid yesterday- total mid-tier Chib landfill ep that was six billion times more fun than the Reality War - shocking thing to say but here we are

emsworth’s cognomen “Cognosc in Tyrol” - a fairly obscure Fall reference

heh yep also a fairly obscure Tripods reference - the Doctor Who thread on ILX is the only place where this can be openly discussed without the explosion of nerd energy ripping a hole in the space/time continuum

It's very specifically that tech company's fault that Gatwa wasn't available for six months, and that RTD had to write two episodes to shoot without him in his first season, and that they still had to stand down for an extra month before getting him full-time. And the five-episode spin-off appears to have been designed to run between Gatwa's S1 and S2 if they got an early recommission, to keep momentum between Gatwa's 2nd and 3rd transmission seasons, or to bump to cover a gap year while they rework the S3 scripts if necessary.

I'd still hope to see Gatwa do another season, but outside of finding a magic money tree, they seem to be handling the realities of funding and production about as well as circumstances allow.


(Would also be entirely happy to see a post-Suzie producer/performer Billie do an actual run! bring Prebble along too.)

hahaha xp

but the gap before and episode count of Suzie Too are also a salient note about commissioning c. 2022

heh yep also a fairly obscure Tripods reference - the Doctor Who thread on ILX is the only place where this can be openly discussed without the explosion of nerd energy ripping a hole in the space/time continuum

lol the Cognoscs are only in the TV series I think - and only in a couple of eps - so definitely a deep cut! I watched it last year and the Fall reference just sorta popped into my head - once you have seen an image of the cognosc it makes for a pleasing mental picture IMO

reflecting on the Gatwa era - I feel I never actually bought him as the Doctor? which (don't hit me) was also the case with Eccleston. I feel like there was a lot of emphasis on capering about and being silly or emotionally explosive/demonstrative - but no real sense of the character's interiority or otherworldliness - actually same with Whittaker TBH

typing this out I have realised that what I am saying is that I liked the Doctors Who who were Doctor Who fans (Tennant and Capaldi were both mega fans and Smith did a lot of research and it shows) - which obv says a fair bit about my history with the show rather than representing an informed critical stance or anything

I’m not as invested in this show as others—mostly just enjoy through my kid’s eyes. I found the finale totally confusing since I don’t really know the history of the show, especially pre-9th Doctor. And I’ve long since given up even trying to take seriously any kind of sci-fi logic. Nevertheless still enjoyed it generally, and my son was excited and intrigued by the Billie reveal at the end. Outside of the Ncuti run, we’ve watched the 9th doc season and the first season of the 10th, so Billie looms large for us. (Whereas the random entry of the previous lady doctor made no sense but we rolled with it).

What is this spinoff you’re all talking about? Is that something that happened already or is confirmed to be coming soon?

i think gave myself an eye-sprain from rolling my eyes so hard at the Billie Piper regeneration reveal. And I am a sicko who enjoyed her run as Rose! I loved Tennant’s Doctor! But I absolutely do not want Rose Doctor. It feels lazy and dumb and lazy and DONT GIVE ME FUCKING TWENTY-YEAR OLD WARMED-OVER LEFTOVERS.
Regeneration = excitement of the new! RAGH. I’m so annoyed by it.

[Hidden text. Tap to view]

> What is this spinoff you’re all talking about?

the bbc showing was followed by a trail for something with Russell Tovey being an envoy to some kind of fish people which seemed to have some UNIT element to it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoM7pfpE3u0

I’m not sure exactly how I ended up at a point where I felt largely entertained while also thinking “this entire thing sucks gigantic balls” all through its runtime

Literally the only story line that was in any way interesting or compelling was the Ruby/Conrad showdown

The Belinda retcon is possibly the most infuriating thing I’ve seen since the show said “Ncuti Gatwa is the Doctor… PSYCH HERE’S SOME MORE TENNANT, I AM A HUGE WANKER”

I did like 13’s cameo because I am nothing if not inconsistent, and I thought the scene where Poppy faded out of existence was subtly horrifying and I would have been 100% down with that being the resolution, but having 15 burn out his regeneration in an attempt to find his lost daughter only to find out that she was never his daughter and THEN turning into Rose is just… this is like Damaged Goods on steroids, do not want, gfy

Belinda’s story arc being “I don’t want to be here, oh wait now I am a brood mare for the Time Lords, oh wait I’ve been mum all along, look at me all I am is my child” fuck off directly into the sun and stop hiring non-white leads if this is the best you can do for them story-wise

It all just reminded me that RTD had Martha and Mickey get married on his way out the first time because they were black and heterosexual, ergo of course

i somehow had memoryholed that ugh

the more this episode kept telling me how special/important/wonderful poppy was, the more I felt deeply indifferent to her fate

she seemed largely indifferent as well lol

The episode should have ended with a Dalek shooting her

Okay no, that’s an overreaction, Poppy was actually insanely adorable

But also can we talk about the subtext of the Doctor and Belinda wishing their child into existence like there was ANY sense to it other than “let’s mate the Brien people”

At least that rug pull subverted that nonsense but replaced “I didn’t ask for this” with “OH NOES MY BABY” and in one fell swoop eviscerated an interesting character dynamic while also poisoning the well for reusing that character motivation in the future or just fucking making the kid be part of Belinda’s story from the beginning because it’s a story line that could work extremely well if you don’t treat it like a stunt, you fucking knob

I am sensing that watching this after a stressful but important parenting weekend may be coloring my reactions

Oh ffs Black

Autocorrect is a scourge

what a mess this was.
i wonder if newcomers from disney will bother looking up any of this fanservice.
most of which doesn't make sense. stuff that was not adequately explained in the disney seasons: omega, rassilon, 13, time rings, zero coffin, john smith, susan, mel's hair, rose, renegade doctor, whatever happened in the timeless child.

like, what if doctor who and their companion just had cool adventures

Man I still haven't caught up yet, still mid-way through the bad first chibnall season, I was looking forward to the Ncuti years but none of this sounds very promising.

Overall I would say this is more coherent than the Chibnall seasons. I’ll also say that rewatching the first Chibnall season, really only “Kerblam!” still falls completely on its face; all the others aren’t as bad as they originally seemed and some are even better than I remembered (“It Takes You Away” and “Demons of the Punjab” in particular).

yeah i think this season for me only truly fell apart for me w the Finale two-parter

i mostly enjoyed the rest of the season

chatter I read seems to indicate that Ncuti quit, which led to a big rewrite at the last minute? is this another Eccleston situation?

Man I still haven't caught up yet, still mid-way through the bad first chibnall season, I was looking forward to the Ncuti years but none of this sounds very promising.

― I? not I! He! He! HIM! (akm), Monday, June 2, 2025 bookmarkflaglink

Taken as a whole, there are more good episodes than bad in the Ncuti seasons. And he lights up every scene he's in.

My Chibnall-era take is that pretty much every episode would start out promising (in the context of him going for more of a proper sci-fi show) but end up a 5 or 6/10 (and I wouldn't rate any Gatwa-phase ep over 7 except The Giggle if it counts). I'm actually looking fwd to rewatching CB/JW but maybe after recompleting Capaldi's I'll feel different heh.

*now remembers every Chibnall Dalek story*

ok 4/10 for those

I just don't have the patience for it anymore

akm, everything I’m hearing suggests he couldn’t wait for the very delayed/still not made decision about the third series, not that there were personal reasons or friction on the set.

Walt Disney's head should roll

They’d have to defrost it first.

take it to the thread where we are discussing terrible smells

I would like to reiterate how angry I am that Tennant got TWO standoffs that were thematically appropriate and Gatwa got… this

How badly do you have to fuck up your story to make the Doctor sacrificing his existence to save one person feel like unearned horseshit?

AND having Belinda LITERALLY remove herself from the story entirely so Ruby could help save the day is an extra kick in the balls

And having the Doctor take on the face of a former companion? FUCK OFF no actual offense to Piper, I think should could be excellent in the role but narratively this is exactly what I never wanted; having the Doctor die and Rose renaming herself and continuing the legacy would be much more my speed

In conclusion, thanks RTD for doing what literally no other showrunner was capable of doing and making me feel outright hatred towards the show, not even the depths of Chibnall got me this riled up

Although I should have seen this coming; I’ve still never seen the entirety of the 10/Rose season because it’s just unbearable but I have to believe it is better than all this, otherwise the show never would have made it past 2007

Grrr “standoffs” should be “sendoffs” stupid autocorrect

Just caught up now* (I'm not really going to put spoiler tags in, skip this post if that really bothers you) - it's not great, it's true. I enjoyed the corrective acknowledgement that the 13th Doctor's relationship with Yaz was kind of fucked up, and the bit with the folding and refolding of the fabric was enjoyably unsettling. That might be it?

Thinking about some of the stuff in the Bsky thread with Tom Ewing, that Fizzles posted, it does feel like there was a lot of nothing for Belinda to do that would have made more sense for Ruby - the one with more screen time gets less character development is weird.

I'm assuming that part of getting Billie Piper in at the end is that in the very real chance that this is the last episode in this era, and he wanted to end it as he had begun it.

One thing I've been thinking about is the critique of some elements of gay media creators, where they're blokes, so they don't have a lot of use for women, and they're gay, so they really don't have a lot of use for women, but you know who they do love? Their mums! Hooray for mums, mums for everyone! I hadn't previously thought of RTD as in that tradition, but it's hard to deny that it's been a pretty mum-heavy few years. And I starting writing this before I remembered "I'm back! I've saved the Doctor's life! I'm pregnant by the way! I"

* we still haven't gone back and watched The Story and the Engine, which I understand is the return of Poppy after Space Babies, so I'm definitely missing some context, I know.

Hah, accidentally posted that, I was just going to add "I am otherwise literally a door stop" to Anita.

“Anita, stand in that door” was pretty funny, really only rivaled by “I can get you a job at this place where everyone else I had a meaningful conversation with died, are you interested”

(Was not a huge fan of fan of Joy to the World” either)

my kids are now into the Sarah-Jane Adventures. Russ Abbott just popped up in one?!