Is accountability dead?

I've found myself having conversations with many different folks in the past six months or so about how it seems like there is a stunning dearth of accountability for bad actors of all stripes these days. And, I'll be honest, I find it kind of depressing.

Obviously this is heavily influenced by Trump continuing to skip through life without even a tiny percentage of the accountability he deserves, but I'm seeing it all levels and in so many aspects of life, from the micro to the macro.

In my professional life I've seen so many people pull things that are unprofessional at best, dishonest and unethical at worst, and am somewhat horrified to see how often it's met with a shrug. No one seems to care and those in power, with the ostensible ability to "do something", either ignore it or just complain that's it's "too hard" to take action against the bad actors.

And down to just daily life things, like how absolutely terrible drivers have become. Not to come off as some pro cop apologist, but people drive like absolute maniacs because they can - there's no accountability. Yesterday I was driving home on a pretty busy street in the evening rush hour and two dudes were racing each other, driving into oncoming traffic, driving in the parking lane, whipping around cars and pedestrians like crazy. Used to be I'd see things like this once a year or so, now it feels like I see it weekly. Since the pandemic, all traffic laws seem to be mild suggestions at best.

Anyway, I'd been feeling this weigh heavily on me in the last few years, and it's been enlightening to learn I'm not alone.

It sucks a lot, and I do wonder how much the structure incentives are such that power-holders have successfully protected themselves from any negative effects of their actions and thus are both ossified into place and have competency loss because skills rot over time.

There’s also a complexity issue, where systems of administration, social control, infrastructure et al are now so complex that theres no adequate way to know what is actually going on, because you don’t have access to all info about all salient processes feeding into these, but also your skill to affect anything is insufficient even if you _did_ have all the relevant info.

One of the podcasters I follow has been loudly boosting Joseph Tainter’s 1988 book, _The Collapse of Complex Societies_, pointing out that these patterns have been seen before.

accountability never existed.

Yes, my kneejerk reaction would be that it's the illusion of accountability that has vanished. Mind you even that has consequences.

Both good points. Obviously bad actors have been able to get away with things in the past and accountability was never what it might have needed to be, but even the illusion of it made a difference.

Maybe part of this is just reaching the age where I've been able to watch the bar get lower and lower. Things that, twenty years ago, would have instantly ended a political career for good now barely register as a blip on the radar.

It’s mad when you watch something and the denouement involves someone getting exposed for sending a racist email or something and their career ending and racism being defeated or whatever, and you know irl they’d probably leverage it into a fucking tiktok career now or something

a lot of the shows/films where somebody gets their life ruined by the woke mob are being made by exactly the people who've done that kind of shit, which is extra ironic

I mean, a lot of it goes back to our current state of division and tribalism, but it seems like even good ol' public shaming is somewhat limited in effect these days. Because when you get public shamed for being, say, openly racist or transphobic, there's another group just waiting to throw money, acclaim (limited as it may be) and opportunities because you were openly racist or transphobic. Like the fear of public shaming doesn't even seem to matter anymore.

i realize this thread has parameters of discussion and that saying this is kind of like tossing the whole premise aside - i don't mean to shade anyone in saying this - but placing faith in politicians or other power-seeking public figures from any era of american history was always a fool's errand. false gods and all that. obviously some interesting politicians in all eras. and advocacy and making things better for people and the public good, i believe in that to a degree. but man when i hear people invest so much fucking energy in politicians and politics today. the "good" ones or the "bad" ones, i just walk into another room, figuratively speaking. you know what's really dead today? the will and maybe the ability to cut out horseshit noise from one's life. the self awareness, vision and discipline required to create a healthier media diet for oneself. the ability to be honest with oneself about one's material reality, start by owning it and then hopefully get to connecting meaningfully with others. it isn't healthy to be obsessed with the world of politics in spite of all of the traction those threads get on ile. 2 cents.

capitalism subsumes all noble traits, we’re just trying to get ahead, take a buck down and pass it around, 98 compartmentalizations on the wall

richard nixon beat his wife and the washington press corps covered it up.

“Politics” is just the same as celebrity gossip for most folks, same as pro sports

taking my dipstick comments section hat off now

xp - That's all fair, though I was hoping to expand the scope of the discussion beyond just "politicians" and other traditional public-facing leaders, I'm interested in accountability in all forms, and how it does (or doesn't) work today - i.e. societal at large, peer groups, coworkers, family members, etc etc. I do agree it is foolish to expect the "right" politician or power-seeking group to magically make things right, but I think accountability can take other forms as well and, since the pandemic, I feel like it's failing on these other levels as well.

capitalism runs everything with an iron fist and the primary purpose of the state no matter what party you belong to is to uphold that, for sure. but things like power, selfishness, greed and violence have always been with us. along with tons of selflessness and beauty. i think it's healthy to develop a relationship with and perspective on those aspects of human existence. we're all connected to them in some way, no matter how strong one's very american impulse to puritanism manifests itself.

xp i don't actually think "accountability" as such is what motivates people to act "good". fear of being held accountable is a disciplinary thing. it probably does have a place, but ultimately i don't think it's very effective at changing people.

And down to just daily life things, like how absolutely terrible drivers have become.

I've always been a defensive pedestrian but it's definitely ramped up to 'keep my head on a swivel at all times' levels of late. Granted, I walk about 4 miles a day to and from work so there are lots of opportunities, but I think it would be fair to estimate that I nearly get creamed by a car an average of three times a week. Almost always by someone making a left turn, very few of whom slow down even after I can tell that they've visually acknowledged the presence of someone in the crosswalk. The possibility of blithe vehicular manslaughter is now apparently just accepted as an annoying wrinkle in one's busy day.

Yesterday, on, my way to work, I was waiting for a family to cross at a crosswalk and the psychopath behind me just blared on his horn over and over, inching closer and closer to my bumper before getting so angry he whipped around me to fly through the intersection. He missed one of the kids by about two feet. Didn't fucking care, he had places to be apparently.

Which brings me to the thoughts that inspired this thread. It seems, and likely is, impossible to hold that kind of dangerous driver accountable for actions like that. But it seems worth it, because that kind of driver obviously represents a clear threat to others. Instead we just sigh and accept that being mown down by a psycho like that is just the price of leaving your house.

There's a street out my kitchen window here in Oakland that people treat like an extension of the freeway, easily roaring down at 60 or 70mph
And because we have essentially no traffic enforcement whatsoever, they have no reason not to.. and old man and hit dog were hit and killed in the crosswalk just last week

i mean to me this is where you get all this "cancel culture" stuff, people trying to hold other people accountable for their actions

which is a nice idea but the people trying to do it by and large don't have the ability to do it correctly - i don't mean on a personal level. i mean the idea of something being objectively wrong. "accountability" is kind of implicitly dependent on having a monoculture, where everybody has a shared set of moral and ethical standards, and violations of those moral and ethical standards are dealt with fairly and objectively

like, what's the difference between "accountability" and "justice"? is justice dead? personally i'd say yes. yes, justice is dead. given that the justice system that's dead was... pretty bad in a lot of ways, patriarchal, racist, homophobic... i got mixed feelings about it. i'd like to believe in the possibility of a better, more just world. really though all i see is a world with different problems than the ones i grew up with.

That's a good point, which is why I purposely focused on "accountability" because the modern justice system has so long been void of actual "justice" and is instead a system of enriching some people while continuing to deny the humanity of others.

To my mind "justice" is intrinsically tied to "punishment" and "force" at this point in human (esp American) history, while I still think there is enough wiggle room in the concept of "accountability" to think of it as a type of redirection (for lack of a better word) for bad behavior that could, theoretically, come from the sides and bottom and not just top-down.

Elon Musk is a wonderful example of non-accountability outside of politicians. Surprised his name hasn't surfaced here, yet.

In the broader sense of the thread question, accountability is where ethics meet enforcement. The basic mechanisms of enforcement are informal, but highly effective, embodied in various social mores, mainly involving shame and ostracism, or praise and reward. Those mechanisms are founded in the individual's desire to belong and be accepted by their social group.

The other basic mechanism of accountability is government, where a society enforces accountability through laws and compulsion through force.

Both of these mechanisms in the USA have become entirely captive to the destructive logic of capitalism. This ain't nothing new. It's been inherent in the USA since its infancy. All that is new is the complete efficiency with which the competing forces of capital all agree upon the desirability of removing all accountability from their actions, by controlling and manipulating the desire for accountability in society, by redirecting it into scapegoating, tribalism, legalism and distraction.

So, accountability isn't totally dead, but it is sick, feverish, confused and delirious, lashing out at imaginary foes (see: conspiracy theories, manufactured crises, moral panics, etc.). You can't eliminate the human desire for accountability and justice, but you can warp it and pervert it. That's where I see us as being now.

The tribalism and polarization of politics in the USA

To my mind "justice" is intrinsically tied to "punishment" and "force" at this point in human (esp American) history, while I still think there is enough wiggle room in the concept of "accountability" to think of it as a type of redirection (for lack of a better word) for bad behavior that could, theoretically, come from the sides and bottom and not just top-down.

― Maxmillion D. Boosted (jon /via/ chi 2.0)

maybe if we had unions or something lol