Sad, not depressed. A thread for a proper sook.

So, teenagers, amirite? I drove one to the other side of town Saturday night to a friends place and she slammed the door on me while I was in mid-sentence. Driving back I called the boy to ask if he'd like to eat out tonight since it was just he and I . He refused and claimed to have something else planned which he didn't.
None of the above is a big deal but it was kind a build up of a lot of these type of things. They arent interested in anything to do with me anymore. Not even simple stuff like watching a movie. The boy wont talk to me for more than 2 min max at a time and literally starts backing away when I try to start a conversation with him. The girl has very strict boundaries which kind of leaves me nowhere in terms of being able to suggest anything to do or talk about. I live in a house with three other people and most days im lucky to get a total of 5 minutes conversation

Anyway, I get this is just having teenagers but my feelings get hurt by this stuff because they're my favorite people. Sometimes I just want to go live in a cave.

This is me being a Super-Sook. Deal with it.

I can feel my 14 yo pulling away from me a bit, less eager to ask questions about things, less inclined to share, but I chalk it up to growing up, it doesn't hurt me (though as you say, it is somewhat sad). The most important thing I can do is to spend as much time with him as possible, to be there when he does feel like opening up, and to maximize the time we have left together.

Our high school driver's ed teacher would tell every parent at the start of the class that, depressing though it may sound, teaching your child how to drive, getting those 50 hours of on the road practice, is likely the last sustained time you will ever spend with them.

Calstars - Yeah, I'm being a whiny baby on the inside but still acting as if nothing has changed on the outside,

Josh - oh jesus

Just taking tentative steps towards teenager status here and only just starting to see small hints of the pulling away, this thread hits home.

Yep, adolescent separation is a real and necessary thing, but obviously all kids and parents are different so it takes different forms. My oldest (now 19) has actually become more open to candid and thoughtful conversation over the course of his teenhood, but that's mostly because he's on the spectrum and was kind of slow to develop levels of mature self-awareness. So having the insight to understand and talk about things has been kind of revelatory for him, it's stuff that he was simply less capable of when he was 9-13 or so. (He has a therapist he sees who I think has helped him with building that emotional/mental health vocabulary.) My younger, who's 16 tomorrow, grew out of a lot of his "kid" stuff over the last three years — no more stuffed animals, wanting to read together at bedtime, wanting to be tucked in, all that stuff. I recognized it and let it go as part of the natural order. He's much more interested in his friends than he is in any family stuff these days, and I also recognize that as good (and remember feeling the same way myself).

Part of me welcomes their growing independence, of course — it's what we want, right? But there are things about being a parent to a kid that are magical and particular, and once they're gone they're gone.

Hope it's okay for a non-parent to post here. I've gone through this numerous times attending grade 8 grad for students I taught anywhere from two to five years earlier. Usually it's only one or two students in each group, but last year--I'd taught them in grade 4--it was like the reverse: one girl who still pleasant, the rest either indifferent or, with one boy, bordering on hostile. I'm going back again this year for my very last group before I retired. I had them when they were in grade 3, and I've been away from the school for three or four years (I supplied there a little bit after retirement), so I have no idea what to expect. Even as a teacher, it can hurt.

the sort of inverse of this is my 22 yr autistic son. There is a low chance he'll ever be able to live independently although there have been some incremental progressions, he's not safe on his own. I have to brush his teeth, shave him, do the laundry, cooking, cleaning, help him manage his anxiety issues/ocds and I have to wait in the adjacent bedroom while he's in the bath in case he has an epileptic seizure in there. But similar to other experiences on here his stock response to me ever entering the same room as him is Get Out! Can't blame him tbh because I spend way too much time with him, it's not good for either of us. His college ends in July as well - that was the only thing he has independent from me and the only support I get. I made a double referral for both of us to social services and made sure I rang them after a bad day in I had only 3 hours sleep and would sound authentically drained and depressed.

Clemenza this isn’t a parenting thread. Just a place to a have a big sook (whine).

All of you have made me feel a lot better about my own situation, so thank you <3

Clemenza this isn’t a parenting thread. Just a place to a have a big sook (whine).

All of you have made me feel a lot better about my own situation, so thank you <3

I had a bit of a tantrum about work the other day and seriously considered spraying myself with pepper spray just to get a few days off. Reason prevailed though.

calzino, that sounds very intense!

teaching your child how to drive, getting those 50 hours of on the road practice, is likely the last sustained time you will ever spend with them.

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, April 1, 2024 9:30 PM

I thought since fewer young people are able to move out that people would be getting closer to their parents now? I'm probably staying with dad until he dies and I have dinner with him everyday and he still gets frustrated that we don't spend enough time together but we don't really have any common interests, so it's not easy to talk about much.

“ He's much more interested in his friends than he is in any family stuff these days, and I also recognize that as good (and remember feeling the same way myself).”

This has been my experience as the parent of a now 17 year old. The last few years haven’t been fun.

My kids are 18 and 15 (going on 25). My wife grew up in a house where the teenagers tended to congregate. Not in a lawless way but in a welcoming, 'well, you might as well do it somewhere safe' way. I sort of did too, but in a more covert, 'come and hide in our garage' kind of way. Consequently, our house has become a version of that and we've had a few parties now. We had my son's 18th here; there have been a few weekends where some of the friend group has ended up here after the pub etc. It's lovely*, tbh and I'm thankful my wife is so easy going and welcoming because, as much as I love it, it wouldn't have happened under my watch!

*there have already been a few occasions when I've fucked off upstairs and hidden and cursed the noise at 1am but I guess I'll take it.

That sounds great. Count yourself fortunate

I was a the grad I mentioned a few posts up last night, and the seven that were left from my class five years ago were great! Hadn't changed a bit. A couple of the girls immediately started making fun of the fact I was still using the same outdated camera. "Yes, I taught them well."

I don't know what a sook is. I know what it is in Scotland.

To chime in on the parenting stuff: I have one, 17, who is definitely getting ready to launch - they have a job* and bank accounts; they're narrowing down colleges; and there lots of teen activities for which I'm not allowed to know the secret handshake.

* = said job is working at a summer camp two hours away, so they'll be away for a month. It tugs at me, although i know it is the way of things. Good practice for next year.

Other kiddo is 13 and rather more like calzino's. He requires nearly constant supervision, and will never be able to live on his own.

He's also verging on being too big and too willful for us oldsters to handle. My wife and I are not looking forward to wrestling a 6', 150-pound toddler into a diaper at age 18. At some point more help will be needed, and some solution that isn't just us.

Sulk ended. I sympathize with what everyone is going through.

October can be tough, something about this time brings out the dread in me. For one, too many consequential upcoming elections, plus the layered memories of too many bad election outcomes. More than that, the glut of news stories about possible AI-generated catastrophes has been getting to me. On one hand, it’s allowed me to better embrace the indisputable fact that my future is never guaranteed (even if the AI apocalypse doesn’t come, I’m just as likely to develop a fatal illness or get hit by a car) and I am seriously thinking about how to change my life in response. On the other hand, spending every day thinking about my impending (maybe much more impending than I reasonably budgeted for) death is exhausting. It’s a lot, especially because it feels like it’s this embarrassing secret I can’t bring up with people, even though I imagine there’s shared sentiment. It seems like a real elephant in the room, and ok, I’m not going to talk to my coworkers about how we’re all circling the drain, but I wish I could just yell “I’m really scared and sad and frustrated and I fucking hate it”

Well, you did just type it! Does it feel better? I do wish society was more amenable to openly expressing anxious rage, I find it helpful to express it, and helpful to hear when others are experiencing it.

When I was disabled and in hospital, I got a reputation for being frowny, just because I was less inclined than other patients to put on a happy face, when I was feeling deeply irritated by the circumstances, rageful at the present existence, and desperate for things to improve. One of the nurses commented on this frowniness on my end, and I got animated in my response, saying how it did make me happier to think about starting a gang with all the other patients, and our first point of order was to cause harm to anyone able-bodied we could lay our eyes on. The roomful of patients started cheering, and I started laughing, this preposterous notion that we'd start a gang (and/or enact violence on our nurses and/or visitors), but the rage was bubbling within all of us, wheelchair-bound (many for good). It felt good to give voice to the anger!

Months have passed, I'm perambulating at 80% my normal mobility now, but recovery is still making me irritated as all fuck, how slow it is, how pathetic my endeavours seem while I'm waiting for things to improve. I too am really scared and sad and frustrated and I fucking hate it!

i relate to both of these posts. i think it's psychotic and just deeply fucked up that we can't express anger, that there's nowhere we're allowed to express it. it's a sad state of affairs that so many of the little shiny things that catch my interest day to day come via social media, but i saw some clips of young women dancing - tongan or samoan i can't remember - and the dance was described as a dance of anger. these powerful women united in fully embodied rage. a society where we can't express anger in a meaningful, socially reverberating kind of way is a society cut off at the knees. i was lucky to see a traditional dine' war dance last weekend and the feeling of being angry and preparing spiritually, figuratively for war with another person via their performance was hugely satisfying to me. i'm so hungry to express my anger in some kind of solidarity, in a way that honors the feeling. and yes that translates a desire to stick a fucking spear in the hearts of cowards on the side of the ruling class, the financial class apologists, into a dance of opposition and freedom til the very end. we're all expected just to transcend everything all the time but we don't work like that and it's just like... how shallow and disconnected from yourself can you be, that's what is favored when it comes to 'thriving' today. it's disgusting and tragic. i stand more firmly on the side of reclaiming my humanity, as i can from moment to moment, day to day, than i ever have, and find greatness there, sowing my anger and watching it grow into wild and ungovernable fruits.

could you pinpoint what you would consider are currently acceptable and unacceptable ways to express it, and what do you think could/should change? it's an interesting thing to think about.

I have been spending time with groups of people discussing the impending climate catastrophe and the anger is bound up with frustration and powerlessness. (and I feel similarly about AI and war)
whenever I have tried to discuss here or elsewhere what can we practically do, ourselves or in our local community, to make a difference, it goes a bit silent. because there are no easy answers!

yeah i honestly don't know! my main outlet for anger is lifting heavy stuff at the gym and going for runs. i think anger can be felt and expressed somewhat acceptably in a concert setting with mosh pits and stuff. i do think we could use more community dance. dance feels like this tightly regulated / controlled practice with heavy tradition like ballet or cookie cutter fun n fitness like zumba. what if there were more therapeutic dance groups? "today we're going to express sadness". "today we're going to express anger". etc. i would join something like that in a heartbeat if the vibe was right.

so much of social life is organized around consumption and inter-group posturing and ladder climbing etc. a microcosm of what's important in our culture. what ends up happening is that the real anger that people feel gets cut off, bottled up and explodes out in damaging, anti-social ways. anger is cast as anti-social. it's completely banned. which is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

For a while it really bothered me that my wife could flip out and get angry at me or the kids, but if I did the same thing it was treated like a horrible big deal. Eventually I realized that it’s a lot scarier when I flip out because if the physical power imbalance. I’m scary because I’m the guy, I’m significantly taller, I could easily hurt them if I lost control while they couldn’t do the same to me. I never did and never would, and it’s not fair, but I understand it now.

So, when I feel myself losing it I storm out of the house
and walk until my legs ache. By the time I get back home I’m so exhausted that I can communicate like a rational person.

xp that takes me back to when I was furious at my neighbour then went on a treadmill!

yeah it's true, a lot of people have experienced witnessing anger as a precursor to violence.

and it is worrying how much of it is channeled as map says, through fueling other divisions and hurt.

what are we 'supposed' to do if we're angry? Write to our MP, join a group of like-minded people, I dunno. all of those things IME add to the frustration and increase the anger.
some people have figured out ways to channel the anger into actual change. but man that takes a lot of time, energy, usually money and other people (thinking eg of fighting some injustice in court). and I've seen a lot of people simply withdraw.

maybe Rainbow Rhythms had the right idea all along
https://everpress.imgix.net/assets/s02e01-xjjqb74r-subtitled-59f1d5ba1bb08.jpg

I've never been to therapy so ymmv but my take is that anger's only usefulness is as a signal that something is wrong. Like the sensation of pain, it's trying to tell us something about something that's happening. Figuring out what that is is our job.

A lot of things can trigger a feeling that feels like anger: rage, resentment, frustration, grief, overwhelm, lots of things that we don't process very well or are trained not to acknowledge so anger is the only way they're "allowed" to surface. (Although good observations already about who is "allowed" to get angry -- in patriarchy only men are allowed the luxury of outbursts and tempers, which is ironic bc they're far, far more dangerous than other categories of ppl.) Anyway, if you don't want to sit in the experience of anger you kind of have to do something about it even if it's just for you, yourself, to know that you did it. You gotta transmute it into a decision or action that addresses the actual thing.

My dad has a short temper and, growing up, he’d often get mad and yell at me and my brother and mom. If we defended ourselves, he’d shout us down louder. From that, my takeaway was that anger is purely toxic, a weapon for patriarchs to assert dominance, a symptom of failing to control yourself and be reasonable. So, I always saw my anger as both toxic and also illegitimate, and learned to suppress it. I decided “I am not another angry man”, which I think has done more harm than good, because I never learned to channel it in healthy ways, so I just turn it back inward, as a kind of powerless rage. Anger sometimes tends to come up out of nowhere, as generalized frustration simmering at the surface, and occasionally builds up until it comes out in ways I regret. The fact I rarely get angry at others is a not a sign of control, equanimity, or morals, and has contributed to avoidancy and cowardice: I spend an inordinate amount of energy avoiding conflicts or situations where someone might be mad at me, which means I don’t show up at, say, protests as much as I “ want to (there’s an aspect of civic irresponsibility to it)

I think map is otm: there’s ways to express anger where it’s not aimed at cutting down others, or trying to return a sense of personal injury, but there’s so little space for that. Dancing makes sense, because so much of it is letting out that energy coursing through you. Trying to dissipate it mentally can feel like paying off one credit card with another credit card.

Well, you did just type it! Does it feel better?

A bit! Which was kind of the point - often enough a problem will eat at me until I tell someone about it. It’s like externalizing it turns it off.

xxp i agree with all of that, generally speaking. i think that when you're already doing everything you can, within your control, to change the situation that is making you angry, and yet you still feel anger because of all of the things outside of your control that make it so your situation remains the same.... i think in that case it's like you're already doing the work to transmute your anger, so what do you do with the fact that you're still feeling it? that you wake up pissed as hell some days? i think the least ideal option is to try to push it down. everything we have in our lives - our jobs, our relationships, our cultural values as generally liberal peace-loving people - makes it easy for that to be the default option.

i think the most ideal course of action is to allow oneself to fully feel the anger. not to be scared of it. not to make it a bigger deal than it is. you don't fully feel your anger by bouncing it onto another person. this is i think where it gets tricky to describe. using therapy-speak, it's like you relate to your anger as a separate being. you treat it with respect, like it's another person or character inside of you with its own existence. you appreciate it. you describe it internally using affirmative language. "this anger i feel is beautiful. it's justified! it needs to be respected. it speaks to the depth of passion and love that exists within me. it is fuel, and i'm using it as fuel now. i'm respecting it through the actions i'm taking in my day-to-day, and i will continue to do so."

you look at so many ancient traditions and they have gods of wrath. anger has a power and a beauty. our culture now wants us to move away from anger as fast as possible. i think that tends to make anger more destructive than it ought to be. usually self-destructive.

Apparently rage rooms having been spreading and spreading for years
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_eg6IlPSNo

https://rageroomatlas.com/
https://www.rageroomdirectory.co.uk/
https://angeractivities.com/

I know screaming therapy has been around a long time but I think people might be more embarrassed to try that.

Tiring yourself out with exercise is good.
Screaming into a pillow seems risky, someone might still hear you.

I babble gibberish and swing my arms around a lot more now, I think it helps.