POLL: hey chaps why aren't any of you talking about the Gisele Pelicot rape trial

I don't really know what to say about it other than it's hideous and horrific and grotesque. I guess the one thing that does strike me about it, or more about the commentary around it, is that in the early days it was sold as a "look at the monstrousness of ordinary men" story, but then as more reporting came out it turned out that mostly these were dudes with a history of creepiness and violence and not just everymen.

Like they made it seem like some kind of Stanford prison experiment-type revelation, as though most men would rape an unconscious woman if given the opportunity, but then it turned out that these were all (or mostly?) exactly the people you would expect to rape an unconscious woman.

I haven’t been talking about it because I haven’t been talking about much of anything but I’ve been reading the conversation on the “no men in the room” thread. I have not responded to anything there because I’m a man and I haven’t started another thread to post my responses/reactions to that conversation because that would be weird.

The entire situation is absolutely horrific, absolutely disgusting. I am in awe of Gisele Peticot’s character and strength.

It's almost over except for the appeals and confirming the sentences ? I followed it quite avidly, criminal cases is where LeMonde's coverage is at its best, Mazan also feels very close as I've been to the area countless times.
The shock and outrage at the facts quickly made way for a triumphalist tone - Gisèle as an icon for women's dignity (yes), there will forever be a before-after Pélicot case (I'm less optimistic). It's scary to say the least that the guy probably gave himself away after ten years, that nobody ever (seriously) suspected him, and that the sentences would look quite different if he had erased his hard disk.
I think to some extent you can say "everyman", just because he found 50 people in such a close perimeter, and there was a great diversity of profiles even if mostly uneducated, messed-up men, some with potential traumas, Pélicot included. I think it's clear that there was some level of manipulation from Pélicot, although that's at best a mitigating factor, and it's clear that they were all counting on impunity.
At least justice has been served, that's always a gain.

DJP otm

Indeed.

I haven’t been talking about it because I haven’t been talking about much of anything but I’ve been reading the conversation on the “no men in the room” thread. I have not responded to anything there because I’m a man and I haven’t started another thread to post my responses/reactions to that conversation because that would be weird.

The entire situation is absolutely horrific, absolutely disgusting. I am in awe of Gisele Peticot’s character and strength.

― DJP, Monday, January 6, 2025 3:00 PM

exactly my response

just because he found 50 people in such a close perimeter

My understanding is that there were at least a hundred men but there was only video evidence of about half of them?

I haven’t been talking about it because I haven’t been talking about much of anything but I’ve been reading the conversation on the “no men in the room” thread. I have not responded to anything there because I’m a man and I haven’t started another thread to post my responses/reactions to that conversation because that would be weird.

The entire situation is absolutely horrific, absolutely disgusting. I am in awe of Gisele Peticot’s character and strength.

― DJP, Monday, January 6, 2025 3:00 PM

exactly my response

― the talented mr pimply (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, January 6, 2025 2:12 PM (twelve minutes ago)

mine as well

ditto. I did even search at one point to try and find the appropriate thread for an non-gender-limited open discussion. Unfortunately, you will probably not be shocked to hear that most of the old threads with relevant keywords have abhorrent "old ilx" content in them. :(

I have thoughts about man alive's everyman question, i.e. to what degree can we extrapolate from this case about the rot at the core of people and what the avg person is capable of, but I am struggling to articulate them beyond that this story has shaken some assumptions...

I think this case asserts what we all have forgotten from childhood and the process of being raised to be a functioning adult in common society; people are at their core venal and will try to get away with what they think they can and “ wing a good person” is learned behavior that takes constant work to maintain. That we think it’s unfathomable or incomprehensible is both an expression of privilege that we’ve never endured a gauntlet of similar abuse along with the low bar we need to clear for our behavior to be deemed acceptable and a testament to how we were raised and the subconscious work we put into reinforcing those lessons.

Like, I don’t think you can look at 50, 100, whatever the number actually was it was way too fucking high, men in the same town participating in this and go “oh but all of them had some weird sex pest accusations so it’s not like it’s everyone” because that completely ignores the elephant in the room, namely that this place had so many guys of differing level of sex offender in close proximity and they all found their way to raping the same woman.

Also, while I appreciate that this thread/poll has opened an avenue for us to talk about this, I’m not going to vote in it. If you want to know why this is the most time ive spent on ILX talking about this, refer to my first post.

whole thing is so abhorent and depressing, i've not really wanted to think about it very much tbh. i certainly don't have anything helpful or interesting to say on the subject. can only echo the general admiration for gisele pelicot's bravery

Like, I don’t think you can look at 50, 100, whatever the number actually was it was way too fucking high, men in the same town participating in this and go “oh but all of them had some weird sex pest accusations so it’s not like it’s everyone” because that completely ignores the elephant in the room, namely that this place had so many guys of differing level of sex offender in close proximity and they all found their way to raping the same woman.

Thank you. Honestly.

Not in response to DJP but back to thread: If men were labeled for the things they routinely do, as rapists, harassers, coercers, abusers...it would be a lot of "normal" men. Believe women or don't, I don't feel like arguing about it.

I've discussed it with my wife. Would not ever discuss it here for multiple overlapping reasons, many of which are covered as options above and others that are not.

these were dudes with a history of creepiness and violence and not just everymen

please can we not let this important distinction distract us from looking at the monstrousness of ordinary men. i guess by "ordinary" i mean "commonly occurring" because sure you can say it's not "normal" to want to do this but they were everyday guys.

if they were some special subset of creepy dangerous men who were always going to do this, then what do we do about that?

The shock and outrage at the facts quickly made way for a triumphalist tone - Gisèle as an icon for women's dignity (yes)

And yet in my rage towards these men I find strength in reading about her even though we must all know one does not move on from these events. Her whole world has been shattered. The bedrock of everything she believed has been destroyed. Every memory from her time with this man is now tainted. Years of meaningful life are now rotten and irrevocably sullied.

Only two have a previous conviction for sexual violence, six others for domestic violence. Friends and family members of several of the men acted as character witnesses, including the partner of Cyril B., who testified that he is not ‘macho’ and that he had never forced her into any unwanted sexual encounters.

i was unaware there was a thread where it was a topic.

I just don’t get looking at the circumstances of this case and saying “they were all coincidentally exceptions to the rule that just happened to coalesce together in the most awful way possible that doesn’t end in murder”

There are 70,000 ppl on a Discord about how to rape ppl. Sexual violence permeates every aspect of humanity afaict.

Or Telegram? Either way 70000 is a large number.

xxp Yes. The purpose of a system is what it does.

It's a terrible case obviously. Shocking in its particulars but honestly not in a broader sense. It makes me think about those surveys of male college students where like a third of them say they would force nonconsensual sex if they were sure they wouldn't get caught or punished.

There are 70,000 ppl on a Discord about how to rape ppl. Sexual violence permeates every aspect of humanity afaict.

otm. IMO we're still a long way from acknowledging at a social-political level how normal rape has been in the history of our species, and how normal it remains despite the last few centuries of women's rights gains in some parts of the world.

Still routinely used as a weapon of war, for example.

xp (sorry for redundancy)
Most everything I've ever learned about SA reveals it as deeply pervasive and mundane. The scale and level of organization makes this case shocking — it's certainly not mundane from Gisèle Pelicot's perspective — but the idea that there are discrete categories of people like creeps, sex pests, sex offenders, etc. is a fantasy / somewhat self-serving form of bigotry (not to derail, but this is true of "criminal" in general).

DJP otm regarding the poll question, as in, I also read the posts in the other thread, felt implicated in the discussion about the silence from male posters, but couldn't think of how to address that appropriately. I can also add that sexual assault is a topic I generally avoid bringing up, esp irl, because people I love have been assaulted while I have not. I'm not sure how to reconcile being sensitive to trauma while not contributing to a culture of silence around the issue. I appreciate cat starting this thread and broaching the issue.

I read the LRB piece that gyac quoted from in the other thread and was glad to have been directed to it: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v46/n24/sophie-smith/sleeping-women. I found it particularly useful for thinking about the "everyman" issue, being reminded that I learned that you shouldn't initiate sex with a sleeping partner from an advice column in the 90s (this was before I was sexually active if that matters) and that norms of consent have changed in my lifetime; for example: my sister was very good at prompting us to ask her children if they wanted hugs, rather than simply assuming "we're family so it's always fine/welcome."

i'm personally glad to see that men _are_ reading that thread and not posting to it... i know other people may feel differently.

i'm also glad there's a place outside that thread for it now... while i _am_ a woman and a SA victim, and i think both those things are important, i have other experiences that i am not sure fit neatly in that thread.

for me, one of the things i believe most strongly is that what i guess i could refer to as "rape culture" isn't a state of nature but is something that's _taught_ to people who are perceived as men. there's this school of gender-essentialist second-wave essentialism that holds that there's something inherently, i don't know, _dangerous_ about men, and i genuinely don't belive that's true. i do like men, and i do have a hard time trusting men. the idea that there is such a construct as a "good man" who will never sexually assault anyone is just, like, not something i find plausible. to me, sexual assault isn't necessarily a question of individual virtue. i guess i'm gonna talk about my experience of being an SA victim a little bit more, in spoilers again:

Because the thing is, I genuinely believe that the person who sexually assaulted me is a Good Person, to the extent such a thing exists. Good people can do bad things. There are so many ways in which the whole thing is so hard for me to talk about, so many possible ways to be misunderstood haha. For instance, I'm not in any way caping for my rapist or justifying what they did. I left them. They're not in my life and it's overall, I think, a good thing that they're not in my life, difficult as it is. Which it is! It cost me a lot leaving them. I'm still, in some sense, emotionally paying off the consequences of that decision.

Does it make sense to anyone if I say what I believe, that my rapist didn't sexually assault me _intentionally_? That they didn't rape me _on purpose_? I haven't ever seen rape framed that way. I think about myself of seven years ago, someone who had only ever known life as a man, who didn't have the experience I do now, and god, no, they wouldn't have understood that statement. I've genuinely encountered situations where people of my acquaintance have sexually assaulted people without intending to at all. I mean how fucked up is that? It's so fucked up, and I don't even know how to talk about that. I didn't know how to talk about it to the person who raped me, either. I do remember that I actually tried once. I remember that this was definitely in 2017, because I remember it happening in an apartment we only lived in that year. I told them that, when they touched me sexually without my consent, it felt like being sexually assaulted. That was the best way I could think of to describe it. God, they felt terrible about that. They didn't blame me or accuse me of making things up or anything like that. They just felt really really bad, to the extent that I wound up apologizing to them. I didn't think they were a bad person, I just wanted them to ask permission before touching me like that. I was never able to get them to do that. Again, I do kinda feel like it was my fault that I couldn't make them not do that, that it was my responsibility to make them not do that.

I _didn't_ think of myself as a rape victim for a very long time. It just didn't occur to me that I might have been raped, again, because the narratives of rape I knew bore no real resemblance to what happened to me. Yeah, that seems weird. Given that I didn't know I was a woman for the first 43 years of my life, it maybe seems a little less weird than it otherwise might, but still: weird. Being an SA victim is weird.

When I started really listening to women's experiences of being sexually assaulted, the effects it had on them, I definitely noticed that I had a lot of the responses women typically have to being sexually assaulted. Being a trans woman made it a lot easier to accept. I looked at the (utterly horrifying) statistics regarding how many trans women are sexual assault victims, and combined that with my behavior, I said, huh, I'm probably a sexual assault victim. I wonder when that happened?

Being trans, weirdly enough, also makes it easier for me to talk about having been sexually assaulted. What Gisele Pelicot is doing is brave. Me? Nah, I got nothing to lose. People already call me a groomer, a predator, an affront to man and God. A lot of people won't _believe_ me if I talk about being a sexual assault victim, but it's not like there's much they can do to lower my social standing.

The thing about SA - I've talked with plenty of other SA victims - is that it's a traumatic event, and trauma does tend to fragment memories. Remembering the whole of it is difficult. There are these little flashes of it that hit sometimes. The other weird thing is that I'd remember these things, acknowledge that yes, I was a sexual assault victim, that my rapist sexually assaulted me - and then I'd just, like, forget. Not deliberately suppress it, I'd just stop thinking about it. It was really difficult to think about. It's not as difficult to think about now, but it's still difficult.

And at the same time it was ordinary. It's something that men do to women all the time. It's a bad thing, but they're not necessarily bad men. It's not _necessary_ for someone to be a bad man in order to do that. It's an ordinary act done by ordinary men.

As to the question of why men do that, well, it's not just because they _can_, it's because men are kind of _supposed_ to behave that way. At least, that's the best sense I can make from all of the crap I was taught growing up AMAB. Even the stuff I knew was stupid bullshit, I mean, I heard it over and over again. That stuff has an effect.

And it is hard, I mean, to have that level of self-confidence, to be able to _listen_ and then talk, and know you're not an expert, and not know if you're doing the right thing, or saying it right, or being appropriate. That's all stuff I had to learn, stuff I wasn't ever taught growing up. I was taught to argue, to debate, to _reason_. And the more I listen, well, the less sure I am of myself. The less I want to talk.

Obviously, it doesn't keep me from talking entirely, lol. I think it's OK to make mistakes! Even if I get mad at someone for saying something incredibly stupid, I generally don't think they should never talk again, just that they should spend a little more time learning before opening their mouth and talking ignorant shit. I don't _want_ to always be talking about this awful shit, I don't _want_ it to always have to fall to women to have to say hey, you know what, that's pretty offensive and awful, maybe don't say that, because, of course, then we're the ones who have to take the shit for saying that, even if it's totally right and we're totally justified.

Women were treated as legal property until relatively recently (still are some places). The degree to which male supremacy has shaped most of our societies is so vast that it's almost hard to grasp. And the degree to which that supremacy has been rooted in threats and acts of sexual and other violence is similarly vast. We just elected a known sexual assaulter as president. It's not even disqualifying for national office. So that's where we are.

Indeed, a history of sexual assaults and misogyny seems to be a prerequisite to serve in the Trump administration

i've been following this story on and off ilx. i also read the no boys thread because i think it's important and also most of my favorite posters are there. i'm not as active on here outside of the hoops board anymore, but i think gyac's and la lechera's posts (among others, but especially theirs) on this topic were really valuable gut checks for me.

Thanks this thread for making me aware that there is a no boys thread. I'll have to go poke my nose in there after I'm done here.

I haven't been talking about Gisele Pelicot because I haven't been following her case; to me it is "an awful thing I read one long article about," like the doctor who made millions giving healthy people fake cancer diagnoses.

...But I talked about the doctor article with family over the holidays, and I haven't talked about Gisele Pelicot with anyone. I haven't even mentioned it to my partner, who I normally talk about everything with, or my pastor and my church friends (but none of them has said anything either). That's probably the shame, I'm not really "afraid of saying the wrong thing" in either of those contexts (maybe the "family at the holidays" one).

Two take two posts as 'saying it better than I could', DJP and rob otm. I too read the No Boys thread, felt implicated and couldn't think of an appropriate response so stayed quiet. I'm not convinced a poll is the way to go, but glad the thread is here.

I could easily have said I felt implicated by the case, full stop. Surely any man should be continually reflecting, auditing, after coming into contact with something like this? It *shouldn't* take something like this but there it is.

I have some experience of a case tangential to this, with a good friend of my partner's. As much as the details were horrific, it was also how it revealed particular attitudes among people I respected (and thought I knew). It split family and friendship groups, all divided along lines of how *true* the details were. The fact that the guy was imprisoned (vanishingly rare in cases of this nature, of course) seemed to mean little.

All of which is to support the idea that it's endemic and trying to isolate 'certain kinds of men' is irrelevant to the discussion.

"To take two posts" obviously. Christ.

Post election I have disengaged from the news for my own mental health including removing nearly every bookmark from any political/news thread on ilx (and boy did I have a lot of them).

I could vote for half these responses, but DJP and mbison probably closest to my thoughts. I second the praise for the posts I have read in the "no boys allowed" thread) and sorry the few women on ilx have had to bear this alone.

it's so awful that i don't know what to say. it's unspeakably awful and triggering to think about. I feel horrible for Gisele Pelicot and angry at all the men involved.

I can’t think of anything I would post in response that wouldn’t come across as performative outrage or something. I’m a little taken aback at all the men here who can’t follow current events because it makes them upset or whatever. We all need to toughen up for this coming fight.

I don't have anything to add, DJP otm and I suppose kudos to man alive for immediately demonstrating why women might not discuss this outside of the "no boys" thread. The one thing I would have added is the brutal LRB article - and unsurprisingly gyac already has that covered - thank you.

i remember reading this and thinking the last line was so ominous. also, that study in the 2000s that found so many men who say they would force a women but wouldn't rape a woman. !!!

"Indeed, experts note one last trait shared by men who have raped: they do not believe they are the problem."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/30/health/men-rape-sexual-assault.html

also, that study in the 2000s that found so many men who say they would force a women but wouldn't rape a woman. !!!

this is horrifying.

I have been thinking about how many people seem to think it's ok to assault an unconscious person. This case, the Chanel Miller case, the uncountable unprosecuted cases of people (women usually) being assaulted while they were unconscious. I can't wrap my brain around anyone ever thinking this is ok and yet it happens literally all the time.

both times I was assaulted, I was unconscious, although in my case, the guy in question took active measures to ensure I became that way first.

it might come down to the reason people avoid doing bad things - because they understand ethically that it is wrong, or because they fear societal reprisals. put someone in a situation where, in their mind, 'nobody will know' what they did, a lot of people won't pass muster because they don't actually feel that sexual assault is a bad thing. beyond rationalizing it with victim blaming, I've even heard some assholes say 'it's a victimless crime, they don't remember it!'.

like the typical dad speech to the kids - do most dads tell their kids "always ask for consent, because respecting women and their bodies is important, and they can always revoke consent at any time", or do they tell them "get consent because otherwise you are going to get burned?". I feel like a lot of fathers focus on avoiding assault/etc as a strategy for avoiding punishment but not teaching them the healthy reason for not doing things like that.

The sex talk I had with my father was effectively “you may want to do all sorts of things with a woman but if she says no, she means it”

At the time, I rolled my eyes and was like “well duh, of course” but seeing how society is as I became a more aware adult made me really appreciate that even that terse, obvious statement was leaps and bounds ahead of where baseline society was operating.

Even now, I look back on that and think “how was that a better than average sex talk”

Which is to say, it seems like a lot of guys don’t even get that, or if they do then they’re reassured be society at large that they can ignore that if they think they can get away with it

yeah, dad's speech to me was more an abdication, he found out I learned about sex from my 'best friend', and then said "oh, he tell you what goes where?" and I said "yeah" and he said "cool", then waited for 5th grade sex ed to teach me the rest. he was very adamant about like protection against STDs, but never really addressed rape/assault, guessing he assumed we wouldn't do that or something. the message about respecting women came more from my mother, who, despite being a lot more conservativey back then, was always a feminist.

Based on what my male straight friends have told me, their fathers (or mothers) didn't mention consent and rape because it went without saying, "Oh, Carlos would never do such a thing."

Also: Neanderthal, I don't know if you revealed this information in other threads and I missed it, but I'm so sorry.

It’s definitely different from the talks cis-women get from their moms. I remember as a teenager wanting to go to college in NYC and my mom saying absolutely not, you would get raped or murdered or both! Granted this was around the time of the Central Park jogger case, but still… I was raised with that sense of fear, and it was very clear that had I been born male, I would have gotten a very different talk.

xp I don't think "getting away with it" is the whole story though that's definitely some of it. It reminds me of the whole phenomenon (popular when I was in college, I hope not still) where men would use the internet/early social media to share photographs of their man friends passed-out drunk, posed with various obscene props, things written or drawn on their faces, etc. There's a social aspect to it that goes beyond simply exercising power over an incapacitated person. Men advertise that power, they invite other men into the circle of power and swear them to secrecy.

I recoil when I imagine Gisele and her husband in public together bumping into one of his co-conspirators: the husband pretending to make introductions, the knowing looks and smiles, wink wink nudge nudge.

*I realize my comparison risks trivializing rape, and I apologize if I have erred in bringing it up here. I don't mean to equate the two. I started drinking and using drugs and having sex (with a pretty shitty attitude about consent) all around the time I started college, so these experiences are sometimes hard for me to disentangle.

definitely not the whole story, it's not always borne out of opportunism, but often direct intent as well.

personally i don't think it's the hormones driving it -- it's more likely the entitlement that comes with cultural supremacy for men, who also have testosterone.

i don't agree. but i am not a scientist. i only know how it feels to be a man and have violent feelings for decades. not all the time thankfully. only men do these things. only male apes and chimps do these things. rape and beat and abuse. rape 300 children and take meticulous notes about EACH AND EVERY one? wtf? that is more than entitlement and culture. its a brain thing and a chemical thing. it sucks. its horrible.

(i have never even been in a fight or hit someone. never forced anyone to do anything. but i know how irrational those feelings are. sexual feelings. violent feelings. it ain't pretty. i control my brain, thank god. it comes out of literally nowhere. and its a lot worse for other men. i don't know if you could really understand unless you felt it.)

(not to say that culture doesn't play a HUGE role in what happens in the world. of course it does. and it does give people license to do horrible things. i wish it would change faster. but i don't think it will. that's the sad part. tradition gets so ingrained. but what men can do in the meantime is not let any festering thoughts they have get bigger. don't allow them to take over. some people lose that battle. you have to ignore them. you have to recognize them for what they are and move on. that's what has worked for me over the years.)

(i'm sure culture does create differences when it comes to rage and anger and hatred. women feel rage and anger but they don't tend to take that anger out on strangers for instance. men will.)

i should really read a good book about this stuff. what's a good book? its kinda incomprehensible to me and i'm sorry for thinking out loud.

my stance in a nutshell: there is something inherently flawed in men - and i don't know if it comes from the dawn of time when violence was the only way to survive and i don't care - and there is nothing inherently flawed in women. and that's it. and that's what the world of people has had to deal with forever.

my stance in a nutshell: there is something inherently flawed in men - and i don't know if it comes from the dawn of time when violence was the only way to survive and i don't care - and there is nothing inherently flawed in women. and that's it. and that's what the world of people has had to deal with forever.

― scott seward

I've seen this view among certain people, but speaking for myself, I don't think my experience as a trans woman bears this out. I certainly have changed since transition, I believe for the better, but when I look back and who I was in the past, the ways I've changed have far more to do with changing social standards and expectations than they have to do with hormones. Indeed, since starting transition I've come to think a lot more highly of men. My problem, in retrospect, wasn't with men, it was with the things I was supposed to do in order to "be a man".

One of the reasons I do have such a hard time trusting men, even though I find men attractive and admire them, is because of just how ignorant I was about SA before transition. Not only did I have a very black-and-white understanding of consent, I had this idea that it wasn't possible for women to have sexual desires, that it was my "job" as the man to convince a woman to give me something of great value. I'm not saying that this is a problem with masculinity because one, I'm not a man and never was, and two, I'm only one person. The thing was, I tried the best I could to be a "good man", and somehow I wound up with that bullshit, despite trying really hard and being taught by people who wanted to teach me consent.

Did testosterone make me sexually driven in a different way than I am now? Absolutely. Yeah, T gave me this very strong sex drive to where I just _needed_ to cum sometimes. I resolved this need by masturbating. Personally, the process did cause me a great amount of dysphoria and left me feeling pretty gross and bad, but at the same time a male orgasm _is_ pretty physically pleasurable and it _was_ a relief. Having had this experience I've never understood the argument that testosterone somehow predisposes men to sexual assault.

-

The thing is, Scott, to me one of the strongest factors in a culture of SA is this sense of guilt and shame a lot of men have about being men, that being a man is somehow "bad" or "wrong". It's easy for narratives like these to become justifications, for these beliefs to become self-fulfilling prophecies. That's why it's so important to me to say that these men _did not have to do_ the things they did. They could have chosen not to. Rape culture is promoted by patriarchy, but SA is not a gendered act, something that men do to women. Indeed, this idea I had that, as a "man", I couldn't be a victim of sexual assault, well.... didn't do me any favors, let's just say.

Having said that I'm really glad that you are expressing your views on this! The things you say aloud are unspoken assumptions carried by so, so many people. This idea that men are bad was an assumption that I carried too. And it's not something I can address if people won't admit it's what they believe! I hope you can listen to what I say and hopefully start to change your mind about men. Men are really quite wonderful.

I love a lot of men! And I didn't say bad, I said flawed. There is a fly in their...uh...ointment. I also think some people have way too much testosterone and it causes them a lot of problems. But, oh gosh, of course nobody ever needs to hurt anybody. But men DO most of the hurting. It's just the way it is. So I try to think about why. And what my own experience is. And how I have felt as a man. I never felt pressured to be any way as a man. Which is why so many different kinds of men feel so comfortable around me. They feel like they can be themselves around me and I wish they could feel this way all the time but they are afraid to. And fear breeds frustration which can breed anger and confusion. And I do know that sexual assault can come from men AND women. But the vast majority of truly horrible crimes do not come from women. There are so many things I respect and love about women I can't even count them. I feel fine as a man. I really do. But so many men never ever look at themselves or what they do. And what they have inside them. They need to start right now.
Thanks for your post, Kate! You rock . I really do love and respect trans men and women so much. They are also the best record store customers! Curious, serious, funny. A pleasure to talk to.

scott, I agree with the impulse to try to make sense of these things, know you are doing this in good faith and I wouldn't want to make it seem like I'm dismissing your struggle

nonetheless it is concerning to me that what you've posted itt is stuff I mostly otherwise hear from one, men's rights activists and two, terfs. I hope that doesn't sound incendiary, I am not accusing you of being either tbc.

the idea that men are all labouring under this heavy cloud of testosterone rage - you call it a flaw, men's rights activists call it an advantage, but either way it leads down a path where a man not succumbing to violence is struggling against his own nature, and that's not something I ever feel, but it sure as hell is an excuse that gets trotted out all the time. the scientific evidence for this is (from what I've gathered mostly watching female feminist youtubers, so I'll admit I may not be up to date) scant, and I think thousands of years of social conditioning are a hard enough yoke to throw off without making it a biological conflict as well. again I know you don't mean it like that, but so much of the MRA movement is about viewing male violence as "natural".

we then get into the murkier waters of what men and women even ARE if we're talking about biological categories and not social categories. there's been so much work in the past couple of decades to debunk the simplistic binary that's been set up around this, to the point where I don't know if speaking in those terms makes any sense at all. if we attribute the behaviour of "men" to chemical issues, well, there's a hell of a lot of people who fall between your categories of "men" and "women".

I'm also frankly at a loss as to how one could think of testosterone in relation to the case discussed in this thread, which is bone chillingly premeditated and cold blooded in execution.

I would associate the case of the French doctor (Joël Le Scouarnec for reference) with any profession that provides ideal conditions for potential offenders to launch into a string of physical and/or psychological abuse: clerics, carers, teachers and trainers, dance/theater, musicians etc, anyone with authority, proximity, access to young and vulnerable individuals. The French doctor made it painfully clear that he had transformed his job/status into a weapon, just like Pélicot did with his marriage, or Abbé Pierre with his philanthropy for another prominent case in French news.

I believe we all accept that a surprising number of men could reveal a capacity to harm when given the opportunity / impunity through ignorance, lack of ethics and education, or being unclear about the law. The changes around consent / rape definitions in legal texts and their stricter application are a case in point. These things take time to learn collectively, and the change is partly brought about by setting examples. There is not really a need to illustrate but there was a case reported last week in the French news about a young man who introduced his fingers in his female friend's after they shared a couch after a party. It was clear in their exchange of texts in the aftermath that the young man didn't realize he would be sentenced to four years in prison (that's the final sentence, after appeal).

I would set apart the men who consciously seek out the opportunity to harm, who know what they're doing but still do it. Sure, they associate it with "pleasure" and pleasure is physiological, but we also know what their urge, their drive, is borne out of pathological reasons. Hate, resentment, alienation, trauma, depression. A little like terrorists who are brainwashed, radicalized, switch, and become permanent threats.

thanks Daniel, for eloquently stating what i was thinking while reading scott’s posts

gyac
Posted: 7 January 2025 at 23:25:54
we seem on the whole to be amoral monsters who would basically do anything we please once the fear of getting caught is removed, and the lack of empathy and compassion that implies is just so alien to me


It isn’t that complex, it’s structural oppression, if women held the structural and historical power that men have then we would be talking about us, women are not naturally better people. It’s more useful to think about the comments you may let slide or the stuff you look away from cos you don’t want to get awkward than engage in this kind of doomerism imo.

i'm so sorry, gyac.

you guys make a good case for it being all about society and not about the sex of the person or chemistry. (though the idea of having too little or too much of something in your body or brain seems pretty normal to me as someone who takes medicine every day...) i will defer to you all. i don't know anything about MRA people. i only know what i have read about other animal species and that the only people who have ever hurt me were male and that i don't trust a lot of men. whereas i totally trust women. but, again, i guess that is society or just my own experience. if women had hurt me i would probably be saying something different. i still can't believe that if we lived in a society ruled by women that they would be anywhere near as cruel as men. but that's my own experience talking again probably. again, if there is a good book to read, let me know!

i also don't want anyone to think that anything i have said is in any way an excuse for anything ever. i really need to say that. it really is just me trying to understand why men do what they do. because its so fucking insane and scary.

"women are not naturally better people"

i am just never going to believe this i don't think. i'm sorry! maybe its like being Christian. you just believe what you believe even if it isn't true.

I guess I’m going to be reposting this till I go blind.

gyac
Posted: 7 January 2025 at 23:25:54
we seem on the whole to be amoral monsters who would basically do anything we please once the fear of getting caught is removed, and the lack of empathy and compassion that implies is just so alien to me


It isn’t that complex, it’s structural oppression, if women held the structural and historical power that men have then we would be talking about us, women are not naturally better people. It’s more useful to think about the comments you may let slide or the stuff you look away from cos you don’t want to get awkward than engage in this kind of doomerism imo.

I will take my thoughts off-thread. i took this thread at face value. it was aimed at "chaps". but maybe it was just meant to be a poll and nothing more.

if there is a good book to read, let me know!

I dunno if that's quite what you're looking for but Cordelia Fine's Delusions Of Gender I found a good primer on how early socialization starts and how the "biological differences" most of us take for granted are a lot more complicated to suss out.

yes, recommendations are good!

sorry for being so obtuse everyone! love you all.

it can be hard when you have believed something for so long. but i want to learn more. i shouldn't stop at primatology.

"women are not naturally better people"

i am just never going to believe this i don't think. i'm sorry! maybe its like being Christian. you just believe what you believe even if it isn't true.

― scott seward

i mean not to be rude but... saying that women are naturally better people than men is literally a bigoted statement! to be clear i'm not judging you for believing bigoted things, like, i think it's important for us to challenge bigoted beliefs we have and i really want you to do that. and i don't know how to challenge bigoted beliefs without acknowledging that one has them. it's just, like, not ok to say bigoted things in public like that.

saying that women are naturally better than men is... i hate to talk about this because what i'm talking about _isn't_ a trans thing, but saying women are naturally better than men is transphobic. i couldn't be trans if i believed there was a _fundamental biological difference_ between men and women. what are the implications of saying "women are naturally better than men"? either i was born a woman, i have some kind of "feminine essence", that made me different from other AMABs and... some trans women believe that about themselves, and I believe them. If they say that about themselves, they're right. I don't believe that about myself. There's no empirical evidence that I was in any way, in terms of biological sex, any different from you, Scott, when I was born.

And if that's the case, if women are better people than men but there's no biological basis for that... why would anybody choose to be a man? Why say like, you know, women are better than men but I'm going to be a man? I grew up my whole life trying to be a man because I figured, you know, I just had to be a man, there was nothing I can do about that, and I mean. I didn't. Nobody does. If you don't want to be a man, fucking don't. Gender is free.

Of course if you look at trans guys that makes it all the more obvious, like, either they were somehow born _worse_ than other AFABs, in your words "flawed", invisibly, in ways that women aren't, or they're somehow deciding they _want to be worse_, they want to acquire this biological flaw. Which is bullshit. I look at trans guys and transition doesn't make any of them _worse_. In general I find transition tends to make people happier and more comfortable with themselves. Not necessarily better-adjusted, but that's pretty much entirely, IMO, due to how patriarchy treats trans people - because I do think transphobia is fundamentally a patriarchal phenomenon, no matter how much transphobes claiming to be "feminists" may claim otherwise.

-

gyac, I do want to say I particular appreciate your perspective and wisdom here... I do find it parallels my own, as an SA victim. It's fucking _complicated_. I see graffiti that says "kill your rapist" and I get where that's coming from and I don't want to kill my rapist, or send my rapist to prison, or even quite honestly _name_ my rapist, because to me, it's fucking _not about them_. It's not about them being a bad person or evil or anything like that. In fact, their belief that they were a bad person only served to _justify and perpetuate the things they did_. I'd tell them not to do something, and they'd respond by saying "I'm not a good person", and it frustrates me so much because it DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER, just don't fucking DO that. How hard is it to ask first? Like to me it's the same mindset where people mess up my pronouns and then are like "oh but it's so HARD", yeah, I mean, tough shit. People are responsible for their words and actions. If you treat people poorly, you should have to face the consequences of that.

Except that men, like, aren't held accountable for their words and actions, a lot of times. I mean, I look at what Luigi Mangione did, and how people are treating him, and how the fuck do you think people would be treating him if he was a trans woman? If a trans woman did something like what Luigi Mangione did? I can tell you. I can tell you in detail, because people are already making up lies, saying that cis people who commit acts of violence are trans, and then using that lie to say things about _all trans people_. There's a pretty strong double standard when it comes to... well, when it comes to white cis men, particularly.

Violence by white cis men is not only _tolerated_, but _encouraged_. That's my experience. I mean, you think women don't feel rage? That's one of the things that's difficult, and again, it's not about me being trans, not about hormones, because I talk to cis women, as a woman, in women's spaces, and a lot of us are VERY FUCKING PISSED. Of course. Women's anger, women's rage, is just policed in such a fundamentally _different_ way than white men's anger is. Luigi Mangione does what he does and he's a hero to millions. A woman raises her voice and we're shrill, bitchy, hormonal, _emotional_, _hysterical_, maybe we're on the rag. That's how we get treated when we express anger, when we express rage. And yes, hormones make a difference, yes, I cry a fuck of a lot more since starting E, and it doesn't mean I'm not _mad_. "Tears of Rage", that song was written by a white cis man.

Women aren't accorded the right to anger, and men, my experience is that white men aren't accorded the right to any emotions _but_ anger. (The way anger is policed under white supremacy is also _very_ racialized, that's why I specify "white men".) Being sad, being afraid, that gets treated as weak. Being angry gets treated as strong. That's fucked up, that's fucked up, and it makes things worse. And when you have this idea that men can't _ever_ be weak, can't _ever_ be vulnerable, fuck, that men can't ever be _emotional_...

A friend of mine said this to me last night, and I think it's such a beautiful, wonderful thing, and I don't think it has anything to do with gender, with gender identity.

Every day I'm learning more that I need to be able to sit with a thing, let it happen, but not react
Let it unspool naturally without forcing
Anticipate and deescalate in advance
It's an uncomfortable muscle
And it strains and make me feel so dumb to flounder and not UNDERSTAND immediately what I'm perceiving. Or not perceive it at all, but grasp that I should

This friend for so long wanted to THINK, wanted to ARGUE, when I would try to talk with them about feelings they would feel insulted, like I wasn't taking what they were saying seriously, and I related so hard to them because I used to be the same way, because I had to learn, am _having_ to learn, to do exactly what they're doing. AMABs just... just aren't taught to _do_ what my friend is talking about learning, to _value_ that, and I think it is absolutely one of the greatest, best things a person can learn. AMABs are taught that they have to be _aggressive_, that they have to _force_. And nobody _has_ to.

Scott, I more or less am right there with you. I don't post about it because I tend to not post on these more complex topics because I'm scared of putting my foot in my mouth. It's hard when personal experience shows that one group of people is Trouble and we internalize that and accept it as fact when the entire truth is so much bigger than what one person can see with their limited point of view.

Still, my therapist and my doctor are both women because in my experience they are better listeners and I am more comfortable with them and I regularly think Bad Thoughts about men in general. It's not fair and may be self-damaging but that's where I'm at and I should work on it. My 15 year old daughter, who has up to now maintained that she was 100% lesbian, recently came out as straight and I think I've managed to hide how disappointed I am, but it's hard.

Anyways, my point is that you're not alone in this and we all have a lot of work to do. Thank you to all of the smart people above (Kate, Daniel, gyac) for reminding me of that.

but you ARE a woman, kate. you always were. i am sorry to have offended you. i really am. that's why i likened how i felt to Christianity which is likewise a batshit insane idea. i RECOGNIZE that me choosing women over men is nuts. and i'm sure it has everything to do with me being terrorized all through my childhood by someone who was being hurt by a man has a lot to do with that. i am just trying to be honest. but i will refrain from posting my opinions here. this is what men don't do though. they never ever tell people how they feel about being a man and their feelings about women and i really wish they would but they are afraid to and the wheel goes round and round. i really want things to change in the world for people but sometimes i think it IS easier for me to give up and say "well, animals are animals and are gonna do animal things sometimes" instead of looking deeper. and i don't want to give up. i don't actually believe, like gyac does, that people are immoral monsters. i think they are truly and deeply scared and that this makes them lash out in horrible ways (and that some people have an overabundance of chemicals in their body that makes it easier for them to lash out in horrible ways but you folks think i'm all wrong about that and maybe you are right). sorry again though.

x-post

I don't actually believe, like gyac does, that people are immoral monsters.

"Except that men, like, aren't held accountable for their words and actions, a lot of times."

for the record, my partner is a strong queer woman who identifies more as masculine then feminine and was raised by strong queer women. i am held accountable for my words and actions.

i was gonna write a long post myself about how like, yes testosterone is my personal enemy, removing it from my body has made my brain smooth as a rock in a fucking riverbed, but even then it's not necessarily something i associate with "aggression" or "evil." i certainly had fewer ways to deal with my emotions when i was treated as a man, and this led me to occasionally throw my head against the wall. fits of self-harm. i was never aggressive toward anyone else other than myself. all of this has disappeared since transitioning, but not entirely. but i also think it's just... transitioning has made me more myself, given me greater access to my emotions, even without the hormones, so i'm able to regulate all of this to a greater degree. people, men, women, are put at such a distance from themselves by society, by the conditions in which they grew up, by the abuse they suffered or continue to suffer. this is not to excuse them from harming others but to say that there are multiple forces at work that create these systems of calculated abuse, but it is ultimately not because of the evil cooking in some man's head. men are encouraged to think that women aren't people, for their entire lives, not just by parents or authority figures: it seethes from the entire world around them. the power structure confirms it. and mental architecture shifts to reflect the world around you. this is all to say that "fixing" this, to the degree that it's fixable, isn't through forced feminization, though that sounds really fun tbh (i'm kidding i'm really kidding); it's more about remaking the world so that no one thinks for a single second that one of us isn't a person

i'm so sorry if that's redundant!!!

i misread your above post, gyac. sorry. i didn't know you were quoting or paraphrasing someone. sometimes i read too fast. i don't think i connected the first bit and the last bit about lack of empathy.

thanks, ivy. i do wonder if hormone blockers were around for me when i was younger if i would have gone that route. its very possible. my brain tortured me for so long. i am a little envious of the current young generation that they have that option. when they have that option. if they have that option.

oh and finally, since transitioning i have experienced even more instances of men touching me without my consent than usual, just casually at bars or at clubs or whatever. happened on sunday! i went to karaoke and these drunk (ok don't even get me started about alcohol) dudes up front were talking at me and one of them grabbed me by the wrist! and i said "no no, please, let me go," and he did let me go, but every time i think what if he didn't!!! he did not think of me as a person

scott, my testosterone blocker is exactly the same as the acne medication i took when i was 12, it's really fucking hilarious to me. it's just out there, kids are taking it already without knowing it's also used for hrt

my new medicine definitely helps me with intrusive/looping thoughts and i will take what i can get. at the height of my bleakness/depression of the last however many years i would lay in bed before i went to sleep and daydream about fighting people on the street. hurting them badly. every night. for about...two years. for the first two years after i quit smoking it was every morning. the same thoughts. for two years. its maddening. and exhausting. just one of the reasons that i relate to maria bamford so much!

!!! i did not know that. about the acne medication.

i told you that someone close to me is going through something similar and i am really happy for them to be doing something that feels so right but it does open up all kinds of emotions/feelings in me that i am still dealing with. its a lot! its cool though. it really is.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who had objections to the “testosterone is to blame for men’s behavior” argument.

i'm really not trying to be a troll or a jerk you guys. i'm just wrestling with stuff. i think the young folks out there now are awesome and its easy to say: they will save us all and be the better people that we wanted to be but were too lazy to be. but i don't want to do that. i really don't. i want to be a better person too. man. whatever. its only recently that i have even thought of myself as a man. i never thought about it much. i'm okay with considering myself one. i don't often feel like one. i've lived such a solitary life. i was raised by a kind and quiet person who never talked to me about power or getting ahead. she just drove with me to fields and woods and painted barns and trees and i watched her. my dad was never around. and when he was i knew i didn't want to grow up to be like him. staring at asses on the street and making fag jokes. i never understood how he came from HIS father who was more like my mom. quiet. gentle. in love with nature. i vowed to never show my own kids that side of me. the side that ogled asses. the seemingly endless capacity to think about sex and women. but now i feel like i should have. i should have talked to them about it. i crossed my fingers. hoped for the best. they are both awesome and in many ways just more well-rounded and compassionate people then i was at their age. kinder for sure.

i don't think male hormones are ALL to blame. i think an overabundance of male hormones can do a number on the old noggin though. that's basically what i think. 80% of suicides are men. and, true, that might also be entirely societal, but its still an awfully high number.........

when i read about the trepanning kooks years ago i actually thought it sounded like an okay idea because i thought it might let some of the steam out of your head. true story! :}

Scott, if you're not careful you're going to be made ILX Health Czar.

I know you’re not TRYING to be a troll or a jerk — but still maybe think twice before posting. Do you think testosterone is causing suicides now? That’s not correct.

I gave it some thought before sharing a highly painful part of my life in this thread. I haven’t even posted about it on here even on seventy seven because it’s still something I’m dealing with.

I did so not to say anything other than to underline exactly how common this is. I think people who are lucky enough for this to be something they can discuss as something that has happened to others don’t realise that. I wish that we all that that innocence, and that we could think that only people clearly marked as evil do bad things, but that’s not what happens.

Seeing what this thread has devolved into, I wish I hadn’t bothered sharing that story.

"Do you think testosterone is causing suicides now?"

I think chemical imbalances can make people want to die. Sure. Sure made me want to.

Can we not have this conversation in this thread?

I am glad you shared, gyac, and I am sorry if I made you feel bad about doing that. And I don't think that only people clearly marked as evil do bad things. I don't think that of the people who hurt me. I never thought they were evil. They did change who I would become though. I don't really believe in evil. I don't even like using the word "bad".

I promise I won't come back. I'm obviously upsetting people. I don't talk about this stuff with anyone and I don't always approach it in the right way. I'll educate myself on current sexual politics too. There is a lot I have to learn!

I won’t speak for anyone else but for me, it’s not so much that you shouldn’t come back as much as it is this conversation could move to another place where the people who want to follow can participate and the people who don’t want to can disengage without also disengage from the specific conversation about the Pelicot case.

What Dan said. No one said “get out of here” but a few people have said please listen and think before you post.

I have nothing insightful or helpful to contribute to this conversation at this point but I would just like to say that I am incredibly humbled (for want of a better word) by gyac sharing her story here. I am sorry that it happened and you have to live with it, but I thank you for your bravery in sharing it and the strength that it must take for you to not be shamed into not sharing it with us and remaining silent.

(I hope this does not seem condescending or patronising but I worry it may read that way)

Thanks, that’s kind. I didn’t post to solicit sympathy because I’ve done the pain and anger by now and some of that has been a very long time in the works. It’s simply a sad fact of my life that shapes who I am along with the rest of my life experiences. It’s what it is, and sadly that’s the case for far too many people in this world. I thought about posting it but decided to because I think persisting in these misunderstandings is not good for anyone and because sometimes this is not a hypothetical discussion to some of us.

It’s painful to think about the fact that rape is this common, this unremarkable, and yet still this many people do not understand it. I could think of ten women I’m friends with and at least half that I know of have similar stories. I guess I wanted to say something about my own very unremarkable case which is far more common than the Pelicot case though both come from the same place; disregard for female autonomy and indifference to our suffering. These things are societal and structural in nature, and if we’re not talking about them we aren’t even approaching a useful discussion imo.

As I said before, I regret sharing that on here and will ask a mod to delete that post.

I think chemical imbalances can make people want to die. Sure. Sure made me want to.

Seeing what this thread has devolved into, I wish I hadn’t bothered sharing that story.

― triste et cassé (gyac)

Gyac, I'm glad you shared what you did.

I hear and appreciate what people are saying here about the turn this thread has taken recently. I do want to continue to talking about the things that have come up lately, because I think it's important. I think that there are a lot of assumptions individual people have and that it's important to address them individually, but I do agree that this isn't necessarily the right place to do that. I'm going to pick things up over on Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread . Scott, I do want to continue talking about this stuff - would you join me there?

What a horror.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2025/may/13/diddy-trial-cassie-ventura-testimony-takeaways

i think the last conversations related to that are in this thread:
Is anyone anticipating the new Diddy album?