Is culture/fashion in a permanent holding pattern?

I was born in 1986, so I grew up through the 90's. A decade which had a distinct look and feel to it, through fashion and interior decor and a certain ethos in the music. Of course I also grew up watching stuff from the past, obviously you kinda just watched what was on TV back then, and you could tell pretty quickly approximately what era something was from just by how people were dressed, not to mention the music. 50s/60s/70s/80s period pieces were everywhere and quickly identifiable as such.

I think the 00's had its own vibe too - Malcolm in the Middle feels very authentic in how people actually dressed back then and what their houses looked like (at least, if you were lower-middle class). Alt-rock, emo, Tony Hawk Pro Skater, dance punk, Adult Swim-type humor, South Park and Family Guy...all that stuff was very pervasive. Obviously the internet was around but it was its own certain zone of humor. Things that went viral were spoken of as being "from the internet", for instance.

What I struggle with, however, is the "look" of the 10s or the 20s so far. Certainly there are folks born in 2006 who may one day attend a "10s night" at a bar, but what exactly are the signifiers of that decade? Black Eyed Peas and LMFAO? "Blurred Lines"? It feels like we've entered an era where pop culture has truly started to eat itself, everything is a reference to something else, not that the 90's were innocent of this sort of thing but at least there was this sense that things were getting combined or recontextualized in new ways, now (as a big ILX thread says) it feels like so much of pop culture is just empty fan service, where "80's" isn't an influence but rather the entire exercise. It's been discussed many times over here but there seems to be so little new these days. What will people remember from this decade? Is there an actual "fashion" of the 20's that I'm not seeing? To me people dress the same as they did 20 years ago. Is there some graphic design trend I'm missing that's showing up on album covers that people will look back on and say, "that's so 20's"?

Is there an explanation for this? Did the limitations of technology dictate the look and style of things to a far larger degree than we may think? Did the internet kill the monoculture from which things like this would spring forth? Am I just getting old and not noticing the things happening right under my nose?

I read a book within the past few months that spent many pages making the same point...think it might have been Kurt Andersen's Evil Geniuses; that it's hard to look at a photo from the '90s forward and ID the decade, whereas that's pretty easy from the '20s through the '80s.

idk photo filters are a pretty specific 2020s aesthetic?

The album covers trend would probably be 'wordless'/just a striking image.

W. David Marx's Status and Culture gets into this.

(xxpost) He meant more the content of the photos--hair, the way people dressed, etc.

see I would argue that filters are in fact fashion, and part of the "way people dress"!

see also: the duck lip look

Cursed AI images are probably the mark of the '20s. Like there will be people in 2050 putting pictures of people with extra fingers on their album covers.

Not at home right now, but later tonight will try to find a quote from the book relevant to this thread.

https://snkrdunk.com/en/magazine/2024/06/21/why-so-many-people-are-wearing-crocs-now/

xxp like Eno says, the failings of today's technology becomes the aesthetic of the future

As far as general culture goes, young people in the 2020s seem waaaaaaaaaaay more politically aware than they were in the 90s. That may just be the ones I see though.

Yeah but this is all online stuff, "aesthetics" are a big thing (cottagecore etc)- but if you were to look at a photo or tv show from 20 years ago, there'd be very little you coild point to and say "Yes that is definitely 2005" unless they were wearing, I dunno, shutter shades and emo hair which only a handful of people did. It's not the same as even when I was at school in the eighties and nineties and my friends and I would giggle at 70s fashion with the bellbottoms and big hairstyles from only about 10 years before

Filters etc aren't that different from the quality of photos, like that saturated look you got from Polaroids back in the day. It's definitely an indicator of the time, but it's more an indicator of tech than a conscious aesthetic choice

xpost I dunno, the broccoli hairdos are probably not going to age well.

We must have had a thread or two to this effect ten or fifteen years ago, so maybe the answer is yes. Not to attack the thread.

I stand by my Crocs link ;)

specifically I'm thinking about The Office which is about as old now as Cheers was when I was watching re-runs of that - Cheers very much felt "of another era" in a way The Office doesn't - people still look and dress like that

I've been working at colleges for 20 years and I don't see much difference in the way the students dress over that time. If anything it's just more casual, or people dress like they're on the way to gym.

didn't help that all of the 32 year olds on Cheers looked 60

Just pulled the W. David Marx book off the shelf. He says that cultural stasis has to do with the reduced status value of contemporary cultural output, as the internet and global supply chains have reduced barriers to information and acquisition.

A few excerpts:

The inherent high speed of the internet ... disrupts traditional fashion cycles. Elite groups need time to be the sole adopters of an innovation for it to gain cachet. For most of the twentieth century, slow fashion cycles meant high-status innovations could elude media discovery for at least a few months, if not years. Early adopters took a while to figure out how to emulate, and manufacturers needed time to make copies for mass consumption. Fashion relied on social friction to slow down the diffusion process, which allowed elites to look sincere and authentic in adoption -- a gradual lifestyle upgrade rather than a flashy attempt at status distinction. This entire system is upturned by light-speed information flows on the internet.

In the twentieth century the use of culture in status struggles resulted in a constant stream of new artifacts, styles, and sensibilities -- all injected with cachet, which allowed them to influence mass culture. On the internet, there are more things, but fewer arrive with clear and stable status value. At an unconscious level, this affects our judgments of intrinsic quality: films, songs, and books without status value just aren't as rewarding as their predecessors. As part of our desire for status, we chase status value. And so if niche culture lacks status value, many have fled the long tail to return to the head.

To be very clear, this doom and gloom is not about the artistic quality of internet-era content. We live in a paradise of options, and the diminished power of gatekeepers has allowed more voices to flourish. The question is simply whether internet content can fulfill our basic human needs for status distinction. Many will be jubilant at this development, but reduced status value has negative downstream effects. Elites are less likely to adopt as many cultural innovations, which means fewer fashion trends to be diffused. When a trend evaporates as a cultural fad, there may not be enough collective memory for it take on historical value, either.

In hindsight, retromania appears to have been a response to the plummeting cachet of contemporary culture. Between virality, a destruction of barriers to information and access, the celebration of simple nouveau riche aesthetics, and a rejection of taste, inventions haven't taken on as much status value as in the past. Meanwhile, we feel more pressure to be 'authentic,' which raises the bar for switching to new things. Before we consider adoption, new styles must prove they aren't fads -- and they're mostly fads. With contemporary status value on the wane, historical value rises to the fore. The reliable past is more useful for crafting personas than an ephemeral present.

I think it takes time to see what is outdated and emblematic about a past decade. I don't think anyone in the 1990s would have used La Croix packaging as a prime design example from that decade.

I've noted before that it's kinda weird that so many pop stars have been around for so long-- Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga, Drake--all on the charts now--debuted in the 00s. Plus so many 2010s artists like Kendrick, the Weeknd, Post Malone, Selena Gomez. Feels like there's not a lot of room for new breakthroughs.

Yeah, stuff crystallizes and is then considered to represent the era from a distance, with neither the view from the present nor from far away entirely accurate, probably. Also seems that the far away view of the past has some inherent societal need for everyone to agree on a few things. I guess cos easier than everyone actually forming an individual memory which would prevent collective discussion.

xpost

Cursed AI images are probably the mark of the '20s. Like there will be people in 2050 putting pictures of people with extra fingers on their album covers.

― Iza Duffus Hardy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 1 April 2025 bookmarkflaglink

By 2050 we'll have an extra finger.

Many will be jubilant at this development, but reduced status value has negative downstream effects. Elites are less likely to adopt as many cultural innovations, which means fewer fashion trends to be diffused.

It's hard for me to see this as a very negative effect in that it's hard to imagine actual harm to anyone arising from there being fewer fashion trends.

I'm not quite sure about those W. David Marx extracts: he seems to see all culture through the lens of "basic human needs for status distinction" and "status value". That feels a bit reductive and too simplistic.

Thanks for the reminder to read Status and Culture. Since it's an ebook on my laptop I kinda forgot about it.

It does seem like AI is only going to continue reinforcing the dominance of big legacy monoculture IP, everything being regurgitated endlessly.

the thing is AI can only barf out things from the past, if it's going to continue to produce an increasingly higher and higher percentage of content then culture can't really "evolve" beyond past trends

what about k-pop?

Many will be jubilant at this development, but reduced status value has negative downstream effects. Elites are less likely to adopt as many cultural innovations, which means fewer fashion trends to be diffused.

This line does seem particularly ridiculous... It's like a mainstream economist, who is used to taking about benefits of the diffusion of innovation in the economy from new technologies and new products, suddenly moving onto covering fashion without thinking about what he is saying.

It was the Kurt Andersen book--came to mind as soon as I read the thread's original post. Was able to find a preview page online. "A fixed backward gaze"...

https://i.postimg.cc/K8Kb5J7p/kurt-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/8zqSXMtp/kurt-2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/hj0RGwgv/kurt-3.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/brCXxtZj/kurt-4.jpg

Sorry if that's too large, but it won't be readable otherwise.

maybe Philip K. Dick was right and we are still living in the Roman Empire

k-pop feels like if the US had sent a Voyager-type probe to another continent in 1998 and filled it with the current hit records and then 20 years later we received an answer probe back filled with BTS and BLACKPINK songs

there's some great new pop music like that, stuff heavily influenced by say Seal and "Steal My Sunshine" and the brief era when Big Beat was cool, it doesn't feel nostalgic so much as it feels like a glimpse into an alternate present where a different set of trends carried on and were built upon

I think the 00's had its own vibe too...What I struggle with, however, is the "look" of the 10s or the 20s so far.

No surprise--clearly related to age. Kurt Andersen is 70, I'm 63; frogs turns 49 sometime this year. I'm good through the '90s at differentiating; the '00s are indistinguishable for me from the '10s or '20s.

I'm exactly the same with music and film; everything this century blurs together, everything before I have a strong sense of each decade.

In search of a calculator...frogs turns 39 this year.

00s for me are freak folk, CDr releases, New Weird America, etc, but I can't really think of specific fashion, just a mishmash of the Arthur magazine/Eclipse Records catalog/Aquarius aesthetic I guess

Fashion def doesn't look like the '10s or '00s to me, but it feels more like anything goes now, there are trends but it's also like 'pick your era' and it works.

(I'm not super fashionable but I work with a lot of younger people)

xp

It's really had to see how much this is a real problem, because people have been complaining about it for so long. I take it the passage from W. David Marx (thanks for that! must investigate) is responding to Simon Reynolds. In an interesting roundtable about Retromania, Carl Wilson says,

But even just to deal with the music listener’s experience, it’s always been the case that if you look closely enough at any “new” music you can identify the constituent parts. And the older you are, the more prone you are to do so. Simon underestimates how all the skill and knowledge he’s built up (and possibly the aging brain’s decreasing circuits for novelty) might cause him to pick music apart almost involuntarily, and how that makes less and less sound new. No doubt there were people in the early 1970s who heard the Stooges and said, “Well, that’s just the Velvet Underground plus a little Doors and Eddie Cochran,” or what have you? But for punk that band was foundational.

As far as general culture goes, young people in the 2020s seem waaaaaaaaaaay more politically aware than they were in the 90s. That may just be the ones I see though.

i definitely see a 'look' among younger people fwiw. gap ad neutral colors, baggy fits (skinny jeans are way way out), crew socks, broccoli hair, mom jeans. i hate it and that's ok.

Thrifting has reached a pinnacle I haven’t seen in my lifetime - I work w a lot of young ppl too (as coworkers and students) and the cache of secondhand clothing surpasses almost anything new afaict. It helps that baggy fit is in bc nothing is going to fit perfectly from the thrift anyway (at least rarely)
DIY clothing too — this has always been cool imo but it’s more widely recognized as such currently afaict.

The popularity of sustainable clothing choices also ensures that old things will be put together in new ways.

Incidentally I’ve also seen two male students get perms! You thought that dies in the 80s and you were wrong!

Oops *died

!!

mullets are hip again too, I have observed this at egg punk shows

also?
one word: mustaches

i have never in my life -- not even in the actual 70s/80s -- seen so many mustaches on young people

"Careless Whisper" works surprisingly well, it's a walk up song so you only get the first 15-20 seconds which is just the opening saxophone part

If I were walking up to bat it would take more resources than I possess to keep from shaking my ass

where are they coming across this stuff?

I know at least a couple of these are from bands their parents like, and likely that's a starting point for many young music fans. From there, basing on how my son explores music, it's mostly the autoplay feature on whatever streaming service they use.

xp list skews a lot more retro than your usual MLB team, like most rosters are going to have a ton of Latin stuff like dembow (Bad Bunny is really popular) and guys across the league use Future and contemporary country a lot too. I checked the Phillies roster to see their walk up songs as a comparison (probably the whitest team in the majors) and here’s what (according to the fansite Phillies Nation) they’re walking up to:

Pitchers

Mick Abel: Highway Tune by Greta Van Fleet
José Alvarado: Me Olvide de Vivir by Tono Rosario (0:00)
Tanner Banks: Are You Entertained by Russ & Ed Sheeran (0:00)
Orion Kerkering: Power by Kanye West (0:00)
Max Lazar: Gorgeous by Kanye West & Kid Cudi
Jesús Luzardo: WOW by Bryant Myers; Survival of the Fittest by Mobb Deep (0:00)
Michael Mercado: Savana by Chris Lake
Aaron Nola: I Am Second by Newsboys (0:00)
Jordan Romano: Tsunami by DVBBS, Borgeous (0:00)
Joe Ross: Chrome Heart Tags by Lil Uzi Vert (0:41)
Cristopher Sánchez: Coronao by Rochy RD (0:00); De Lo Verde by T.Y.S; Hipocresía by Rubby Pérez
Matt Strahm: How Bad Do You Want It? by Tim McGraw (0:00)
Ranger Suárez: Mr. Rager by Kid Cudi (0:58)
Taijuan Walker: Me vs. Me by Moneybagg Yo (0:00)
Zack Wheeler: Let It All Work Out by Lil Wayne; Rooster by Alice in Chains (1:45)

Hitters

Alec Bohm
Famous by Kanye West (1:35)
Past Songs: FUNKY WIZARD SMOKE by Kid Cudi

Nick Castellanos
Neverland by Kid Cudi
Past Songs: Don’t Stop ‘Til You Get Enough by Michael Jackson; 5 Dollar Pony Rides by Mac Miller; Summit by Skrillex (ft. Ellie Goulding); FATHER FIGURE by Jon Bellion

Bryce Harper
Flower by Moby (1:24)
Ain’t No Mountain High Enough by Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell
What I Want by Morgan Wallen & Tate McRae
Ride Wit Me by Nelly (0:00)
Past Songs: Paradise by Bazzi; Body Like a Back Road by Sam Hunt; Wannabe by Spice Girls; Country Grammar by Nelly; Making Good Time by Old Dominion

Otto Kemp
Take Me Out by Franz Ferdinand

Max Kepler
How Soon Is Now? by The Smiths
IM GLASHAUS MIT SCHEINEN WERFEN by makko, lucidbeatz
Past Songs: Like Glue by Sean Paul; Freed From Desire by Gala; White Bronco by Action Bronson; Day ‘N’ Nite (Extended Mix) by Jamy Nox; Lila Wolken by Marteria, Yasha, Miss Platnum

Rafael Marchan
JS4E by Arcángel (0:49)
capaz by Alleh & Yorghaki (0:36)

Brandon Marsh
444+222 by Lil Uzi Vert (0:37)
Pluto to Mars by Lil Uzi Vert (0:22)

J.T. Realmuto
MONEY & FAME by NEEDTOBREATHE (0:00)
BROTHER by NEEDTOBREATHE (0:36)

Johan Rojas
Volveré by Rubby Pérez
Oh Oh Oh (Veo Veo) by Ceky Viciny, Flow 28, B One El Productor De Oro

Kyle Schwarber
Grove St. Party by Waka Flocka Flame (0:20)
I Was Made For Lovin’ You by Oliver Heldens, Nile Rodgers & House Gospel Choir (0:15)
Thuggish Ruggish Bone by Bone Thugs-N-Harmony (0:13)
Cult of Personality by Living Colour (0:22)

Edmundo Sosa
Love Sosa by Chief Keef (0:28)
Good Energy Remix by Farruko, Yung Wylin and Maffio (0:24)

Bryson Stott
A-O-K by Tai Verdes (0:13)

Trea Turner
Lay Low by Tiësto (0:38)
Look Ahead by Future (0:17)

Weston Wilson- Nevermind by Dennis Lloyd

For the high school team, a lot of those songs are going to feature on game soundtracks or be popular on TikToks, this is usually the answer when I ask a younger person where they heard something that surprises me

hmm!

great info, thank you for the expertise

I said Bad Bunny, I meant El Alfa, sorry. But Bad Bunny is way more popular! I was thinking of El Alfa cos he had the Soto Shuffle song

https://platemusic.com/artist/el-alfa

https://platemusic.com/artist/bad-bunny

Bryce Harper
Ride Wit Me by Nelly (0:00)

I happen to know that the kid on the team who chose Ride Wit Me is a Phillies fan, so I guess that's why he chose that.

Max Lazar really missing an opportunity to use Major Lazer

Max Kepler join ILM

Probably the best example of the young guy using an older song that mystifies me is Roman “gets on his horse” Anthony (born May 2004) who walks up to Electric Feel (released 2007). His fellow teammates/housemate/infant Marcelo Mayer (born December 2002) uses Timbaland’s The Way I Are (released 2007). Both were big on tiktok at some point.

as Max Kepler might ask, "is it really so strange?" I was born in 1981, and in 2000 it would not have surprised me to hear gigantic 1984 hits like "When Doves Cry," "Dancing in the Dark," "Break My Stride," "Uptown Girl," "Thriller," etc. The 'omg so lame' stink was long gone from the 80s... those songs were played on the radio, MTV countdowns, etc.

You can’t really compare someone in 2000 and what they’re exposed to to someone who’s grown up always having the internet and a billion splintered ways to discover stuff.

The metal and hard rock selections in that list are things classmates of mine would've listened to, sure, millenial rawk dudes were into that whole canon. And of course there was no baseball at my school. But the thought of 11 teenagers getting to choose their theme songs and not a single one of them picking a current hit? I don't think that would have happened.

xpost

I haven't read through this entire discussion, but I also have found that young people today aren't as beholden to cultural or subcultural identities, a trend that has been going on for nearly a decade. In the past, even when I was in college in the aughts, one could easily differentiate between different subcultural groups based on what they were wearing. Now, some dude in UnderArmour and sweatpants could be blasting the Dead in his headphones and wouldn't think anything of it. In the past, most people into that kind of music *looked* it. As it relates to the question, there has been a flattening of culture, and so that this would lead to stasis (particularly as regards fashion) is unsurprising, at least imho.

I do admit that I find this both liberating as well as confusing, at times.

George Michael - Careless Whisper

this is the gay boy's pick

― hungover beet poo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn)

not so sure about that tbh - the sax part has been a huge meme for like 20 years at this point

I was being optimistically facetious

Yeah the music chosen by athletic teens reflects the taste of their dads - or their dads' idea of what masculinity and/or badassery is supposed to look like.

A baseball player is supposed to be a thundering dragon, not a pink pony or a tricked-out Lamborghini or whatever images are evoked by music actual teens listen to. Wake me when lo-fi or K-pop rules the stadiums.

Lo-fi?! Fundamental misunderstanding of what makes a good walk up song imo, you’re looking for a banger. Anyway Haseong Kim on the Rays walks up to Block B’s HER and at least one player used Pink Pony Club this year.

Yeah the music chosen by athletic teens reflects the taste of their dads - or their dads' idea of what masculinity and/or badassery is supposed to look like.

Enjoying the mental image of a dad ordering his son to turn off 21 Savage so he can play him a track that shows what real masculinity sounds like - "Boombastic" by Shaggy.

I am trying hard to understand the significance of all this, because...the children are our future. \solemnpiety

I think this has much more to do with how technology has changed how music is being consumed and discovered than with young people specifically

what masculinity and/or badassery is supposed to look like

is this a vibe anyone gets from:

a. old-timey, sandlot, crackerjack, slow as molasses baseball

b. that cartoony af song list

A baseball player is supposed to be a thundering dragon

https://y.yarn.co/4c8a4b29-4105-473d-a4be-7519e2635edb_text.gif

Interesting that none of those choices are earlier than the 80s.

"TNT" is 1976. I'm trying to imagine getting pumped up for my turn at bat as a sixteen-year-old playing a recording from 1939.

Glenn Miller's "In the Mood" is a banger

Put me in, coach!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2S1I_ien6A

I decided to take a scientific approach to the original post and with the help of platemusic.com, decided to see if real players had used these as walk up music and if so, who

Ozzy Osbourne - Crazy Train
Two according to platemusic:

Lonnie Chisenhall (b. 1988, CLE)
Miguel Montero (b. 1983, ARI-CHC-TOR-WSN)

Megadeth - Holy Wars... The Punishment (this is my son's)

Gordon Beckham (b.1986, CHW-LAA-ATL-SFG-SEA-DET)

Shaggy - Boombastic

Nobody!

Nelly - Ride Wit Me

Guns N' Roses - Welcome to the Jungle

OK, I’m not listing all their teams:

Craig Kimbrel (b.1988)
Jason Kipnis (b.1987)
Eric Sogard (b.1986)
Carlos Beltran (b.1977)

AC/DC - TNT

Peter Moylan (b.1978, Australian)

Mötley Crüe - Kickstart My Heart

Imagine Dragons - Thunder

George Michael - Careless Whisper

4 players!

Josh Reddick (b.1987)
Zack Greinke (b.1983)
Tyler Chatwood (b.1989)
Austin Hedges (b.1992)

The Killers - Mr. Brightside

https://i.imgur.com/lwoETHV.jpeg
Please never put “aged” and “ballyard” so close together, thx

AC/DC - Back In Black

You will notice with a couple of exceptions, all those guys are millennials.

Bonus track: This video I found of current Red Sox players naming their most recently played song. They are a relatively diverse group both in age and background. It runs the gamut from Jesus-bothering shite to country to Sabrina Carpenter, which is probably about right for your average clubhouse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9dAiAIxVXs

it should be noted that of all professional athletes baseball players are definitely the least... culturally in tune

If you mean conservative then yes, agreed. I’ve noticed a lot of them, especially white guys from the South, love 90s hiphop & rap which feels kind of red flaggish, like they grew up listening to their gen X dads talking about how rap and hip hop today is trash, only this (song released twenty years before they were born) is legit. Like Madison Bumgarner using Notorious BIG’s Hypnotize as a walk out song. There’s simply no way.

Secret track: kpop artists that MLB players have walked out to.

Bigbang - Bang Bang Bang (Kenta Maeda)
BLACKPINK - Shut Down (Jung Hoo Lee)
BTS - Burning Up (Fire) - Ji Man Choi
ILLIT - Tick-Tack (Amed Rosario)
SHAUN - Way Back Home feat. Conor Maynard - (Nolan Arenado)
Stray Kids - God’s Menu (Lars Nootbar)
Younha- Houki Boshi (Hyeseong Kim)
Younha - Comet (also Hyeseong Kim)

Finally, I swear to God this is it, walkupdb has this highly scientific data:

https://i.imgur.com/LgYzUi8.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/o0H1YJj.jpeg

If you mean conservative then yes, agreed

well yes but i also just mean like... cool. and connected to current day youth culture? when you compare to NFL and NBA stars. like MLB just had a red carpet before the all star game and i can't think of a single baseball player who has been associated w/ fashion in a cool way since like ken griffey jr or something you know what i'm saying?

MLB Youngboy

Probably can’t spit out your tobacco on the catwalk

i can't think of a single baseball player who has been associated w/ fashion in a cool way since like ken griffey jr or something you know what i'm saying?

Yeah i do. There’s nobody with the mass appeal cool of Griffey Jr but then there’s no American star with his charisma. Francisco Lindor gets a lot of coverage (relatively speaking) for his style, but again, it’s both more luxe and niche than mass market like Griffey and his streetwear. Aren’t they still making and selling the Griffey Nikes?

https://media.gq.com/photos/67e30d632c644c89efaf8f54/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/GQ0325_Hype_Lindor-4x5%2520(1).jpg
https://hypebeast.com/2024/9/new-balance-x-francisco-lindor-collection-release-info

And despite MLB’s efforts to copy NBA’s player fashion parades, your average team is a lot less cool than your average NBA team. I started this thread and it’s not exactly rich pickings.

High and tight - a thread for MLB fashion

Huh. I respect your scholarship in this matter and defer to your wisdom.

But are any baseball players still rocking the NASCAR Billy Ray Cyrus wraparound shades mullet/goatee combo look? Feel like that vibe ought to still be emanating from players whose upbringing was in the American heartland.

Are there still lumberjackish hipster beards?

It’s not exact but I feel like this is Andrew Chafin?

https://i.imgur.com/CpibojN.jpeg

As for beards I guess you can tell me which fits this aesthetic best:

Brandon Marsh

https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-photos/image/upload/d_people:generic:headshot:67:current.png/w_213,q_auto:best/v1/people/669016/headshot/67/current

Lucas Giolito is having a big beard season

https://www.masslive.com/resizer/v2/DZRZA6Q3RFCHDJI3PKYZBIVANU.jpg?auth=88c557c45a1efd76166ef950ae6dc09afd006147f0895ccb150fda647871ba72&width=500&quality=90

You can have a manbun/beard combo?
https://i.imgur.com/bzJZExC.jpeg

This used to be the best example probably but it’s a lot tamer these days.

https://i.imgur.com/GeR7E3v.jpeg

Btw Yankees are allowed to have beards now, truly the game has changed

https://www.espn.co.uk/mlb/story/_/id/43959761/devin-williams-ex-yanks-stars-helped-spur-new-facial-hair-rule

really interesting website that has been documenting style as an expression of group identity for several years now

https://exactitudes.com/

I was looking at the sale on 'cutting edge' fashion retailer ssense's website. I think the influence of crust punk and the unhoused on high end fashion is huge See also Rick Owen and some of the street style Instagram accounts that stop kids in the street so they can flex their multi-thousand dollar rags. these seem like new developments.

Seems older than that, eg Marc Jacobs grunge collection in 1993:

https://www.dazeddigital.com/fashion/article/16706/1/marc-jacobs-for-perry-ellis

As a gesture of tribute, Jacobs sent the samples to Cobain and Courtney Love. “Do you know what we did with it?” Love said in 2010, horrified at the memory. “We burned it. We were punkers – we didn’t like that kind of thing.” To Seattle’s DIY scene, the transformation of their Salvation Army anti-statement into high fashion was surreal. They had adopted the fleece and fuzzy wools of the fishermen and lumberjacks of the Pacific Northwest out of financial necessity, inadvertently spawning an awkward, scruffy look that symbolised a recession-ridden generation disillusioned by 80s greed.

I was looking at the sale on 'cutting edge' fashion retailer ssense's website. I think the influence of crust punk and the unhoused on high end fashion is huge See also Rick Owen and some of the street style Instagram accounts that stop kids in the street so they can flex their multi-thousand dollar rags. these seem like new developments.

this has been going on for years and years, see Junya Watanabe and loads of others in the late aughts/early 2000s as well

Washington Post, 1983:

The July issue of Vogue, the women's fashion magazine, features a willowy model in a drab-colored, raggedy, tattered dress tied as limply as a shabby robe, and another in big floppy shoes with rag-like ties around the instep and ankle. Their resemblance to the homeless shopping-bag ladies who sleep on hot air shafts in winter and on park benches and in doorways in summer is not incidental. It's fashion's latest: street couture, the bag-lady look--expensive designer clothes with rips, pins and rags manufactured right in.

it's interesting how much of the Jacobs "grunge" collection looks bang up-to-date

‘Hard Times’ was the club look du jour in the early 1980s - coincided with the arrival of CdG shop in London. The Face, 1982: https://theface.com/archive/hard-times

https://i.imgur.com/w1zp2Ak.jpg

has this been disproven? no. so, it is the “dominant theory” imo

look right to me

and fits right in with that Face article:

Imagine a spiral that begins with a birth out of affluence and post-war liberation and moves through time propelled by its own mythology and its own contrariness and is affected by technology and whimsy and economics. It is cyclical, but the circle is never completed because it is also evolutionary, therefore patterns repeat but they are never quite the same.

ah yes the new rock trend in fashion, after circa thirty years of skinny jeans

rick owens was doing preppy clothes until a year ago

I think the influence of crust punk and the unhoused on high end fashion is huge

https://fashionablyhomeless.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/derelicte.jpg

A lot of early ‘80s hard times/avant garde style was rooted in fear of nuclear weapons and/or AIDS, a shellshocked kind of minimalist look but without being gothic. The clothes had volume and rough edges; they pretty much got me into British fashion. There was a shop called PX at the turn of the ‘70s/‘80s in Covent Garden where a lot of those impulses were turned into collections - the designer/stylist Judy Blame and Princess Julia who was later in Visage were two of the people who worked there that people outside fashion-as-industry might recognise. Judy was also associated with ‘buffalo’ - think Neneh Cherry, who borrowed the term for Buffalo Stance from the collective of stylists and designers Judy got involved with next.