The robotaxis are coming... the driverless car, AV thread. Waymo, Zoox, and others

we should prob have a separate thread for driverless cars given the Waymo growth?

― sleeve, Wednesday, June 25, 2025 1:48 PM (five hours ago)

As someone who bikes a LOT in San Francisco, I'll say this much: the Waymos are by far and away the safest cars to bike near and around. They are very cautious, drive slow and politely, always let me move in front of them, and I generally feel super safe around them. This has NOT been the case for many years around most human drivers and especially old school cabbies when they were more of a thing prior to 2015. Nearly got run over by them a LOT. If Ubers are replaced with robots like they replaced cabbies, as a cyclist I'm all for it.

I've yet to ride in a Waymo though.

the previous discussion

As an SF pedestrian my opinion on Waymos is...neutral. But not thrilled, honestly. For a couple of years in the early pandemic, as I did my morning walk, I saw a prototype regularly out at the same time I was, with a human driver clearly putting it through its general paces, getting it used to the blocks and areas, things like that. Vaguely interesting to note. But the couple of times I've been near them when out and about is weirdly uncanny, and I can't see myself ever actually using one. As was said in the discussion sleeve linked, knowing that any accident will involve Alphabet hiding behind as many lawyers as possible to avoid either paying up or admitting fault doesn't thrill me much. (And I don't knock octobeard's point at all but my sis, who lives in the city and is a biker herself, was in an accident the other year -- while driving in this case. The other driver was very much at fault and there were recordings to readily prove it, and while it took a while for insurance claims to go through and the legal niceties to be observed, pretty much that other driver's insurance knew they'd have to pay and did, earlier this year. I half suspect if it were a Waymo then by now Alphabet would be on its twentieth motion of 'but what IS an accident really' and trying to fob my sis off with a much smaller settlement.)

I do vaguely worry about them being hacked and turned into 1.5 tonne killing machines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOVhz1PllJU

you're leaving out the part where a driverless car does not have a driver

― a (waterface), Wednesday, 25 June 2025 20:40 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I didn't really get this as a slam-dunk, is the point a) you need a soul to drive, who will be listening to Springsteen records if it's all robots or b) robots will be able to drive better than people but it's important that more people die on the roads.

it's not meant to be a slam dunk. cars should have drivers. don't know why you're being all cute with the Springsteen reference--which doesn't really make sense. i also don't recall saying anything about people dying--but if that's your point, the idea that robots can be better drivers than people, and will kill less people on the roads--is foolish

sorry, how is that foolish ?

how about we take the tactic where you explain to me and give evidence that robots will eventually be better drivers than people and that would should continue to invest time money and infastructure in cars versus other forms of public transportation

Is there anything that robots cannot do better than humans ? We're early in the technology and safety is already presented as an argument in favor of AV, so imagine in 5-10 years.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-024-48526-4
https://citiesofthefuture.eu/driverless-cars-far-safer-than-human-drivers/

Maybe you meant more as an ethical concern though ? I certainly feel differently for Elaine Herzberg (first person to die in an AV road accident) than Bridget Driscoll (first person to die in a road accident).

Ethical is not quite the right word, I mean establishing the chain of responsibility / liability.

Of course it comes down to ethics, because people are not going to treat these cars the same. Example here, go to about 4:40. Waymos are programmed to be safe--which has a limitation when you're trying to merge on a highway and for a few seconds, a human driver would do a slightly "unsafe" thing like butting into the merge lane versus the Waymo which just sits there. I don't know how you fix that one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4ldcJmf1a0

Is there anything that robots cannot do better than humans ?

lol

make a meal
write a book
create a piece of art
love another human

also that second study you linked to WAS WRITTEN BY WAYMO

Recently saw this article about bringing these things to London

https://www.businessinsider.com/i-took-chaotic-robotaxi-ride-through-london-impressive-one-question-2025-6

The city's hodgepodge of Roman and Victorian roads are a mess of cycle lanes and pedestrian crossings, with complex road layouts that often serve more as a rough guide than a rulebook for the millions of drivers passing through the city each day.

For Wayve, that complexity is the point. The company says its AI driver — which runs on an end-to-end AI model, an approach also adopted by Tesla — is capable of generalizing and reacting to the physical world in the same way a human would, unlike rivals like Waymo, which rely on high-definition maps and sensors.

Kendall said that this allows Wayve's software to drive anywhere, even places it hasn't seen before, and deal with the kind of unexpected encounters that are an everyday occurrence on the streets of a major city like London.

"I can't wait to see another autonomy company come into London because I think it's extremely challenging," said Kendall.

"The advantage of starting in London is that we've been forced to develop a system that can operate on complex roads and deal with all of these unexpected scenarios," he added.

In the first few minutes of our drive, we encountered multiple jaywalkers, including several who darted out across the street without warning in front of the robotaxi. We also had to inch through narrow gaps between rows of parked cars.

And yeah this thing is going to cause crashes on the North Circular within hours.

Also there have by definition never been any "jaywalkers" in England and the fact that this prick doesn't know that say a lot about quite what a prick he is.

Also 'hodgepodge' instead of 'hotchpotch'

The simple reality is that while AVs might drive more safely than humans under optimal conditions, conditions are rarely optimal, either due to human, infrastructure, or environmental factors. This fact alone means that they will never be able to fully integrate into current systems.

That they also stifle investment in public transportation infrastructure and further silo people away from each other is another compelling argument against them.

And finally, I admit that I am also opposed to them because unlike many people here, I actually *enjoy* driving, and I always have. I walk and ride my bike quite a bit, and I take public transit quite often, too, but I love my little ten year old Subaru. Even in the context of Philadelphia, which has some of the worst roads and scariest drivers of any city in the US, I still love driving.

I guess this is maybe for the controversial opinions thread but my thinking is that there are way too many dangerous/distracted/bad drivers out there and it seems very likely to me that autonomous vehicles will on average be much better than humans at driving. For every suboptimal condition where an autonomous vehicle might perform worse than human drivers there are probably dozens of totally normal conditions where human drivers make mistakes or drive dangerously where a robot driver will do much better so overall I think AVs come out ahead (if not now, then eventually, inevitably).

All that being said, I of course think investing in mass transit will always be a better use of resources than investing in individual cars, no matter how they are being driven.

Aren't computers way worse than people at interpreting and making decisions about the VAST NUMBERS OF THINGS we see and interact with in everyday life?

My understanding, which might be out of date now, was that the only practical use for fully autonomous driving would be for ex long-haul trucking on optimized highways where traffic largely follows norms and drivers interact with each other much less. So trucks would drive between nexuses where freight would have to be picked up by human drivers. (Honestly I wish this would happen in NYC because full size semis regularly go down streets they're not cleared to use and get stuck.)

I guess I should make clear that I don't think a robot driver will be necessarily be better than a human driver at his best, just that a robot driver will be better than a typical tired and distracted driver who is speeding because they are late for work. Humans are very good at plenty of things, including driving, but we're just not always operating at 100%.

I don't know, maybe it's just that I live in a city with a bad driver reputation. I feel like the robots would do better even if I think they will be far from perfect.

Remember that driverless taxis are operating in multiple cities in the US right now (and have been driving around in those cities for 2+ years now). This isn't an argument about IF they can handle real-world conditions, they already are. More data is needed on their safety record vs human drivers but early signs are that while they get in more minor accidents, they cause fewer serious/fatal injuries per driver mile at their current level of ability and are getting better. Human drivers, it needs to be said, are getting worse, especially post-COVID.

it's not meant to be a slam dunk. cars should have drivers. don't know why you're being all cute with the Springsteen reference--which doesn't really make sense. i also don't recall saying anything about people dying--but if that's your point, the idea that robots can be better drivers than people, and will kill less people on the roads--is foolish

― a (waterface), Thursday, June 26, 2025 6:43 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

sorry, how is that foolish ?

― Naledi, Thursday, June 26, 2025 6:45 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

how about we take the tactic where you explain to me and give evidence that robots will eventually be better drivers than people and that would should continue to invest time money and infastructure in cars versus other forms of public transportation

― a (waterface)

airplanes

autopilot on airplanes

humans are horrible drivers, and we're getting worse

i also think ai-guided autonomous everything is bad. i also wish there were no cars, that everyone walked and biked, and that public transportation in the country i live in wasn't destroyed in order to facilitate as many cars as possible. just getting that part out there, because that counterpoint always comes.

but in the meantime, it might be fun to go back to when autopilot became a feature on airplanes and see what people said about it

(yes, i also i understand that autopilot on a plane is different than the problems of doing it on highways with cars and a million different objects and weird situations)

(but i also think it's a hilarious self-own when people jump on some self-driving car accident/death as proof that it will never work, while ignoring the tens of thousands who die every year in the u.s. from their own terrible driving, let alone the much larger number of people who get severly injured)

again not saying anything about accidents, deaths, injuries, etc. i am just saying show me where a robot is going to be a better driver than a human and show me your work.

humans are horrible drivers, and we're getting worse

https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/nhtsa-2023-traffic-fatalities-2024-estimates

The U.S. Department of Transportation’s National Highway Traffic Safety Administration today released its early estimates of traffic fatalities for 2024, projecting that 39,345 people died in traffic crashes. This represents a decrease of about 3.8% compared to the 40,901 fatalities reported in 2023 and marks the first time since 2020 that the number of fatalities fell below 40,000.

The quarterly fatality declines that began in the second quarter of 2022 also continued, with the fourth quarter of 2024 marking the 11th consecutive quarterly decrease in traffic fatalities.

“It’s encouraging to see that traffic fatalities are continuing to fall from their COVID pandemic highs. Total road fatalities, however, remain significantly higher than a decade ago, and America’s traffic fatality rate remains high relative to many peer nations,” NHTSA Chief Counsel Peter Simshauser said. “To reduce fatalities further, USDOT is working closely to partner with the law enforcement community to enhance traffic enforcement on our roads, including speeding, impairment, distraction, and lack of seatbelt use.”

but there ya go, there's your accident stats. we are still high compared to other countries, but i would imagine that's because we have more drivers

AND BIGGER MORE DANGEROUS CARS

yeah, the baseline here (speaking just about the USA) is that with human-piloted cars there is a vehicle fatality about every 12 minutes. consider just some categories of fatalities that would be entirely eliminated with driverless vehicles - distracted driving, speeding, and drunk driving are the top three causes of vehicle fatalities and autonomous cars do not do those things.

what is driving off the road and into a fire hydrant if not "distracted driving"?

yeah, the baseline here (speaking just about the USA) is that with human-piloted cars there is a vehicle fatality about every 12 minutes.

There are plenty of ways to solve this problem that don't involve robot cars and making money for huge corporations to sell us cars and taxis that drive themselves

consider just some categories of fatalities that would be entirely eliminated with driverless vehicles - distracted driving, speeding, and drunk driving are the top three causes of vehicle fatalities and autonomous cars do not do those things.

sure but now replace drunk driving with a new category "a computer made an error and drove a Cybertruck onto a sidewalk and killed a bunch of pedestrians not to mention the people in the car"

xp
those aren't my accident stats. there's a lot of ways to look at stats, and a lot of ways to cite them.

check out "national statistics", here, and look at the excel sheet: https://cdan.dot.gov/tsftables/tsfar.htm#

it only goes through 2023 and back to 2010, but per capita (number of people, number of vehicle miles traveled, etc), fatalities have only gone up. injury rates have gone slightly down.
--

but again, i think all of that is pointless. is 30,000-50,000 deaths per year from cars the gold standard? plus 2 million or so injuries? is there a way to transport people that doesn't kill that many, every year? again, i fucking hate the ai stuff everywhere, i'm just saying, i wouldn't mind if less people died

sure but now replace drunk driving with a new category "a computer made an error and drove a Cybertruck onto a sidewalk and killed a bunch of pedestrians not to mention the people in the car"

well, if you include "fantasies I had about autonomous vehicles killing tons of people" in your stats then they're gonna skew towards human drivers being better but I was thinking we'd stick to those causes of vehicle fatalities that actually happen in large numbers

sure but now replace drunk driving with a new category "a computer made an error and drove a Cybertruck onto a sidewalk and killed a bunch of pedestrians not to mention the people in the car"

and sorry (this is my least popular opinion here, or one of them i think), but yeah go ahead and do that! replace the drunk driving category, which is a really high number, and replace it with "computer error", which i think will end up being a much lower number

xp

there is a way, it’s called rapid rail transport and local public transit infrastructure

xpost once again i will remind you that i agree with you that fewer people should die and that is not the argument i am having, but it seems to be the argument everyone wants to have because having robots drive cars is kind of indefensable but sure go ahead and continue to bring up the grim spectre of death and avoid the idea that you have to mount up a defense of why technology should be allowed to drive cars

there is a way, it’s called rapid rail transport and local public transit infrastructure

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

also did it occur to any of you robotstans the idea that there are fewer crashes with the robot cars because THERE ARE FEWER ROBOT CARS ON THE ROAD

i also think ai-guided autonomous everything is bad. i also wish there were no cars, that everyone walked and biked, and that public transportation in the country i live in wasn't destroyed in order to facilitate as many cars as possible. just getting that part out there, because that counterpoint always comes.

― z_tbd, Thursday, June 26, 2025 11:23 AM (thirty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

also did it occur to any of you robotstans the idea that there are fewer crashes with the robot cars because THERE ARE FEWER ROBOT CARS ON THE ROAD

yes it did waterface

jfc

why post

me, i mean

why post

like LLMs and other AI models, it comes down to people who are resigned to it and those who are dead set against it, and imho those who are resigned to it have no spiritual backbone

did anyone read anything i posted

i might ask you the same question

didn't you incorrectly cite stats in a really obviously cherry-picked fashion, ignored everything i said about wishing cars didn't exist in the first place, and then called me a robotstan?

I don't have animosity to spare for z or hazel or anyone here. I save mine for people (I have heard at least one person say this) who say "I want driverless cars because I personally dislike driving and want to be driven." INSTEAD OF LIVING SOMEWHERE ELSE OR IMPROVING TRANSIT WITH YOUR CULTURAL CAPITAL AND MONEY. Once again we see the uptake of "AI" driven by people's desire to be served, to live and feel like whatever passes for our current aristocracy.

did anyone read anything i posted

i did, z, but some of your other posts betray being resigned to AVs and okay with then in some ways.

yeah! i'm into the idea of fewer people dying

it's because of my spiritual emptiness

I know we all agree that Tesla is an inferior product but putting this here anyway

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tesla-hit-train-extreme-self-101546522.html

I see Elon's employing every trick to try to sabotage public transit and rail traffic.

yeah it's a full court press with the gop

they not only cut subsidies for wind/solar, they actually put taxes on them to make them less competitive with fossil fuels instead

I am following that in real time yeah - it could destroy my profession/career

My best friend’s brother owns a solar roofing company and he is not optimistic about the near future for the industry… dude’s a rich asshole, so don’t pity him though lol

ooh I am fascinated, I have never encountered actual non-vaporware solar roofing in the wild!

really? is that cause you live in the pnw (iirc) where it's cloudy all the time?

a lot of houses have solar roofing here on the east coast

Good point, are the Waymo's electric at all? I know Zoox cars are.

― octobeard, Monday, June 30, 2025 2:47 PM (one hour ago)

i wanna say the one i rode in was a gas jaguar but according to the internet the newer ones are electric jaguars

xp there's plenty of solar in the pnw, but I don't think I've ever seen the shingles IRL!

huh, i interpreted "solar roofing company" to mean company that puts solar panels on roofs. didn't know they made solar shingles!

well it was Tesla/Solar City vaporware for a long time, I haven't been following super close since then

damn, are you serious? I first saw solar roofs in 1990.

uh I seriously doubt that, we're talking about shingles not panels

It’s just panels … sorry everyone

haha ty, I was super confused there for a minute. I am sticking with my "vaporware" opinion for now re: shingles

i shudder at what brand names companies would come up with: sungles, shongles, solgles, bleagh!

When you get shongles as an adult, you might have a sauna

i legit keep reading “vaporwave” instead of “vaporware” and wondering what the fuck is going on

Same. The genre name comes from the term, tho, so really we're the odd ones.

The house next door to me has a Tesla solar shingle roof. I can't tell you anything more about it because no one lives there. It was purchased in 2021 by someone who intended to move their elderly parents in, but I guess they balked so it just sits empty except for the occasional visit from a gardener or when the place is rented out for an event such as a engagement party or something. Absentee neighbors will never complain about the loud music coming from me, but they're responsible driving the housing costs.

Installing the shingle panels over there took a *very* long time - a Tesla crew was working on the roof for at least six months. The shingles are a clusterfuck designwise though, the wiring is a needlessly complex with all the panels and locks you in to their tech. There was a big windstorm that came through last year which caused some damage throughout the neighborhood. A Tesla repair crew spent two months fixing the damage, whereas the house on the other side of me, which has conventional panels, repaired their roof in two weeks and upgraded to more efficient panels.

ty! that sounds about right.

https://itcanthink.substack.com/p/the-first-mass-produced-robotaxi

the cost of a waymo vehicle is about to get a lot cheaper

Been seeing these around... Thought they were mapper vehicles. Makes sense now

i wanna say the one i rode in was a gas jaguar but according to the internet the newer ones are electric jaguars

― 龜, Monday, June 30, 2025 3:54 PM (one week ago) bookmarkflaglink

the fleet has always been 100% jaguar I-Pace afaik, which is electric.

Finally gave in and rode a Waymo. It was quite nice, great user experience. Drove safe, picked up and dropped off smoothly, and didn't have to talk to anyone. My favorite part was being able to blast whatever crazy music I wanted nice and loud. A bit slower but cheaper (at the time - I've noticed other times where it's way more expensive than regular ride sharing services). Kinda dig it.

It would be cool if there were robotaxis waiting to drive people home from the dentist or hospital… but a human driven shuttle would be cool too.

― sarahell, Monday, June 30, 2025

Most hospitals when they discharge you don't like you to get a cab or uber or use transit to take you home. They are usually pretty insistent that someone responsible come pick you up. I have friends/relatives who would do that for me now, but what about when I'm 90?

That said, I encountered a newly-released crazy person, still in a hospital gown and with a hospital wristband visible, ranting on a MUNI historic streetcar recently, so I don't know

the fleet has always been 100% jaguar I-Pace afaik, which is electric.

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Saturday, July 12, 2025 12:45 PM (two days ago)

if you're talking waymo not in SF, there are the Zeekr 009 microvans that have the annoying habit of stopping in the middle of pedestrian crossings and mid-turn on streetcorners for about a year now (def last summer). i saw a few in tokyo a few months ago too.

also waymos are now getting wrapped in corny ass "street art" to avoid the wrath of taggers.

(undoubtedly AI-generated with an "edgy street art" prompt)

more reason to destroy them

as a cyclist, pedestrian and non-driver, if it’s true that AVs kill fewer cyclists and pedestrians, i am in support of them replacing human drivers. sorry human drivers, i understand that it was fun, but you’ll have to find some other way to satisfy your bloodlust

As someone who's had no less than three people aggressively drive their cars at me in two years of living in the US (previous 50+ years living in the UK = 0 incidents of this nature), I heartily concur.

that does seem to be an american phenomenon. i attribute it to obtaining a drivers license in europe requiring years and years of rigorous exams but getting a license in america requires circling the DMV building once at the age of 16

ban cars, but if you can't ban cars, banning drivers is the next best thing

a 114-year-old marathoner got hit by a car and died yesterday

Americans are more aggressive in general, especially behind the wheel.

i'm sure we are but we should still ban cars

and just putting this here for no reason to remind people that companies go out of business and or drop support for products all the time so good luck with your driverless cars that need software updates in order to continue driving

https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/16233096?hl=en

also a cyclist, also someone who loves to drive, i think yall are being ridiculous

Counterpoint: I hate driving and banning cars is reasonable if we bring back all the streetcars and electric interurban railways we had 120 years ago.

sounds good to me

and just putting this here for no reason to remind people that companies go out of business and or drop support for products all the time so good luck with your driverless cars that need software updates in order to continue driving

https://support.google.com/googlenest/answer/16233096?hl=en

― a (waterface), Tuesday, July 15, 2025 10:08 AM (fifty-three minutes ago)

i'm sure the people itt who own driverless cars will be devestated to hear this

we could always crowdsource the software updates

i think yall are being ridiculous

about?

ban cars

ban cars

up the bicycles and trains

I was nearly sideswiped by yet another aggressive driver while biking home last night.

more reason to destroy them

This is the actual ridiculous take. If I should follow suite in this theme, destroy aggressive drivers.

BTW the art on Waymos is not AI, it's credited with the artist name on the car.

Probably not far from seeing ads on them though, like you do on busses and cabs now.

that does seem to be an american phenomenon. i attribute it to obtaining a drivers license in europe requiring years and years of rigorous exams but getting a license in america requires circling the DMV building once at the age of 16

Probably true in cities/suburbs but I've driven in Slovenia, Italy and Spain and holy crap I've never seen more aggressive and speedy drivers on the highway than in parts of Europe. Highway driving in California is relatively placid in comparison. Italians especially are ridiculous tailgaters.

I found the drivers in Spain speedy but polite— I would be doing the speed limit or just under and they would patiently wait until it was safe to zip around me but no road rage or honking like I’ve encountered in America when you foolishly “only” do the speed limit.

Yeah that's fair! Honestly the speed limit in Basque country where I drove was so high I felt uncomfortable driving at it. Like 60mph on curvy mountain roads where in the US it would be 45.

I was very aggressively passed in Spain on two lane mountain roads which was crazy. Italy was the worst though. I only bring this up to dispel the myth that EU drivers are all safe saints. They aren't.

https://theonion.com/must-be-a-waymo-bystanders-say-of-moron-stuck-backing-up-in-alley-for-half-hour/