where are we at with alcohol?

this is a thread for talking about where we're at with alcohol. I did AA for five years in my 20s and it was what I needed at the time; in the years since I've had bouts of drinking too much, and long times of not drinking much. I've abstained for long periods of time -- over the last year, for much longer periods, I find that even a glass of wine can disrupt my sleep more than I'm willing to give to it, and two glasses will severely interfere with my energy levels/general well being the next day. wine, around dinnertime, is pretty much it if I drink anything -- whiskey I can't countenance any more; once in a very blue moon, like once a year maybe, I'll have a beer, but I'm given to excess and am likely to reach for a second one if I do, so I usually don't. all the recent research on just how bad alcohol is for you has me a little shook here in middle age -- a married couple I know are scientists who work with alcohol, and they're not teetotalers, at all, but they plainly describe how the more they learn, the more there aren't many upsides to the stuff. I've gone through periods in my life where few days passed without at least a glass of wine; those days are feeling more remote. if I find myself in a bar -- rare -- I order soda pop or a mocktail. I am interested by this shift, which I didn't really pursue: it's just where I'm at.

lol hell of a thread to come back to after visiting two of my favorite New Orleans bars! BUT — I only had one drink at each, and more than one or two on a weeknight (or honestly most weekends) has gotten a lot rarer for me. I'm very aware of its impact on sleep, and also that sort of draggy feeling the next day — not hangovers, which I rarely drink enough to get these days, but e.g. there's a noticeable difference if I go to the gym on a day where I had more than one drink the night before and if I didn't.

I like alcohol, I like the idea of it, the mythos, the bon vivance. But I try to be really conscious of its downsides, which are obviously considerable. My older kid is turning 21 in a few months, he's on the spectrum and because of that and other things he has told me he has no interest in alcohol. I told him that's great and is for sure the healthiest decision you can make when it comes to alcohol. I don't know if I'll ever give it up entirely absent a doctor's order, but I do try to have a mindful relationship with it.

coming up on a year sober... i tried a lot of things over several years, but eventually i just had to realize/admit i simply do not WANT to drink. i just don't. i am extremely confident about this and do not ever see myself having a drop again

the only thing i learned during this often-hellish experience is this maxim i just came up with writing this post: listen to other people, but not too much

uff da, liking alcohol more than I ought but not to intoxication

i find the cultural or personal norms around what excess might mean here fascinating and predictably alien to what someone from my geographical, cultural, familial and personal backgrounf might consider

but

i have a very fine whiskey shelf and id consider it an ongoing interest and pleasure but have dipped into it perhaps four measures worth in four months due to a factor of dietary and seasonal impropriety considerations

i have a weeknight two or three ciders or beers on a social occasion perhaps every fortnight with various groups

if a sit down meal is a social occasion then wine and other drinks will flow more heavily

at home as a couple we open bottles of wine for an evening in perhaps a few times a month and usually that might last two evenings

when the boys from home meet up its a 3-5pm start until bed, call that twice a year

none of the above entries ever strikes me as out of sync or pattern with the others, which i guess means im fine with my relationship with alcohol right now, and enjoy it for the various things it means to me.

only the last entry ever causes me any trouble the day after, as a rule, and I haven't had any qualms about the cost or my behaviour due to drinking in perhaps half a decade.

i can turn down a drink when in drinking company, this isnt a small thing here but its not a big thing when i do it either.

all in all, id say balanced. im a conscious user of alcohol in the forms in which i take it.

It's mostly an individual relationship. I'm happy with skipping the white wine served as an aperitive in family gatherings since I don't really like it, with ordering non-alcohol drinks in bars and restaurants, which is a little less obvious if you don't drink sodas, and when at home with not always accompanying each other at the dinner table.

When I do drink, it's usually one, maximum two glasses. At home it's usually red wine with a meal every second day. It used to be more but we have cut down. Occasional single scotch late at night, a bottle can last me a year. Outside of home, IPA or Spritz during the day, red wine in the evening. I will not refuse a cocktail night. So, moderate and responsible if there is such a thing outside teetotaling, and somewhat regular.

Just yesterday one of our stupid ministers who has links with the branch was openly decrying the ongoing dip in national consumption. Sounds like there is a real shift in young people, with a sizable portion of non-drinkers approaching 20-25% iirc. In my teenage and early 20s, binge drinking was still a hot topic.

approaching end stage

2 years 7 months 11 days sober. i know i can never drink again. i ruined my life, but more importantly, i ruined my health and was bed bound at the end of my drinking. it took me over a year to recover my body. go to aa 2-4 times a week and need to find a new sponsor, as i've not spoken to mine since february.

my mother is also an alcoholic, been sober for fifteen years. my sister is taking her on holiday in august and one thing she is very excited about is being able to have one rum cocktail. she has like one or two drinks a year, supervised, as far as i know. when her auntie died two years ago, she called me and sounded half cut although i've been told she was fine. it just seems very odd/painful to spend over a month thinking of one drink.

I can understand where you mother is coming from - occasionally I take a month off and by the end of the month, all I'm thinking of is that first drink I'm going to have when the ordeal is over. It's never as good as I imagine.

I struggle. If I drank whatever I wanted, I'd be drinking a bottle of wine a day, every day. I don't of course, I exercise some self-restraint, but it's a constant battle, and that battle is psychologically exhausting. I know I have to give up at some point. But I just have too much shit going on in my life to do it right now.

I've not drunk this year. On reflection, I've had a problematic relationship with booze for about 25 years; this intensified in my late 30s/early 40s. My two main issues are having no off button, drinking for the blackout, and dreadful hangovers, which got increasingly worse the older I got - physically, mentally. It's not pathological, but I can be a prick when I'm drunk.

I've been with my dad this past weekend and we were talking about our old days when we both used to belong to a local cricket club. The old man was wistfully bemoaning the loss of drinking culture at the club and was genuinely proud that my friends and I had 'learned' to drink there. The booze culture in the UK is so deeply embedded that it's shorthand for 'sociability', certainly for the circles I grew up in. I'm having to relearn how to be sociable, and it's easily been the hardest thing about giving up drinking - simply how to *stay*, at times.

I left a party on Sunday night where I was the only one not drinking. I walked up into the hills behind the house through a tunnel of yew trees. Bats. Last of the day's skylarks in the middle air. Eventually, the sun bleeding across wheat fields. This sober shit isn't getting old, I thought.

i hear you re socialising aspect especially in the uk.
went sober for 4 months at the end of last year.
it was both brilliant and boring at the same time.
since then i have been enjoying the social excess/booze in the last few months - possibly too much.
i do have a few days a week where i dry out, and i do have an off switch and know when to say enough is enough.
that said, when i went to see a doctor last week (nothing serious) and admitted my units per week it was a bit of a 'hmm .. thats a lot' moment.
but as others have said, i have a lot going on, both good and bad, and well, yeah ..

I think I’m in a much better place with my relationship with alcohol since my son was born and since I’ve started taking Mounjaro. This is in spite of some recent misbehavior that may be a partial proximate cause for the kidney stones I’m passing.

I feel a need to be sober around my son, he’s too much fun and too energetic to be impaired, although I will have the occasional drink in front of him. The Mounjaro has really stomped on some of the compulsive aspects and the weight loss (and limits) means my tolerance is way down.

I’ve gone from someone who always had a drink in his hand and drank them too quickly to a much better, if imperfect sip and savorer.

I still love alcohol, I’m now a two time judge of the Australian sake awards, but that too has led to some maturity. There’s no way you can get through two days of judging without spitting and without heavy boozing on the middle evening.

It’s definitely not perfect. I drank way too much at my sister’s wedding and at a conference in Sweden recently, free booze and entertained by a covers band (a lot of ABBA). But I’m in a better place than my dad, who still puts away a bottle of red most evenings and will often have a night cap after coming in (red wine of course, he gave up the brandy some time ago in a small concession). He wonders why we don’t let him babysit.

One side of my family is riven with alcoholics, but that’s never been my vice. I like spirits, champagne, cocktails, generally getting more austere as I get older. Everyone I know laughs at me for ordering whiskey neat, sorry you don’t know ball fellas. But on a serious note, the non-vice aspect is really useful for me. I’ve never felt the need, I can forget about it for months and not miss it. Given my family history that’s not nothing.

Oh also I got a load of bloods back last month and my immediate family were laughing at my liver’s numbers because it’s basically like…a child’s liver. Hardly any mileage. (This is NOT reflective of my life even given the above lol).

Almost three years off the drink and it’s been good. It wasn’t hard to stop and I can’t say I miss it. Hardest part is living in a new town and being isolated so the social aspect of it is rougher. Alcohol used to relax me enough around other people to enjoy their company, now i’m just antsy.

havent drunk alcohol since i was 17, and even when i did drink i have never been drunk. stopped when i was the first of my friends to pass my driving test and became the 'designated driver'. always have felt a real need to always be completely conscious of my behaviour at all times and was v wary of the way i saw people around me behave when drunk. in the uk it is a part of socialising but by my early 20's i realised i wasnt that into socialising anyway!

Mon to Thursday - sober as a saint and early nights to bed followed by an early rise, without being wealthy and wise!

Friday to Sunday - not quite pished, but averaging 3-5 beers and a bottle of red wine per day.

I'm convinced I'm going to die from mesothelioma before any long term booze related conditions catch up with me, so I don't count units at all on my allotted drinking days. I don't smoke, vape or eat junk food any more and I walk for miles and am in decent condition for an old bastard, so fuck it, going to get full enjoyment from my unhealthy weekends while I can. Maybe I'll have a health scare that will push me into full sobriety again at some point.

i definitely drink a bit too much. it doesn't really cause problems or erratic behaviour really, tends to just make me relax or have a laugh, but i do worry about my health. both like chronic illness stuff that isn't alcohol-related but would improve as any illness would if i cut down a bit, and long-term health. i exercise a lot but that's more mitigation.

i would prob have a six-pint night out once every week or so and i drink three or four nights a week. the challenges i've found in cutting down are numerous - it's the main social activity for everyone i know, as an irish person living in the uk. i live alone so boredom is a factor, even a quiet beer reading is quite nice and frees me from the flat where i work at home every day. i also enjoy cooking and am p interested in wine so that's part of it also.

summer too is a driving force, the current run of hot weather in london gives me this huge need to be out in a beer garden or in the park with friends, i guess which is engrained from a young age.

i have hobbies and nothing bad ever really happens with alcohol, compared to friends i know who get emotional or sad or get in fights, in many ways alcohol just makes me happy. and i am good at staying right on the edge of it really destroying things. but on the other hand there is prob a whole other life i could be living if i didn't basically live to just work, write, read, exercise and see friends.

I used to enjoy getting drunk but never as much as getting high, so when the hangovers got rougher I jusy decided to stop. IBS contributed too, booze not technically a trigger but it is a gut irritant and has made things worse on that front for me on occasion (it has also on occasion helped against it, but the instances are maddeningly rare and I can't gibd any common ground between them). Noe that my tolerance is down I also tend to get headaches like 30min after drinking wine, even very good wine.

I only really miss it in specific situations - a glass of vinho verde at lunch outside, a highball at a Japanese place, that kind of thing. Problem is if I'm at a restaurant I already need to be doing a lot of calculations in my mind about what I can and cannot have.

Also because I've soft quit, and nothing very dramatic lead to it, I do indulge every now and then and then get really self conscious when mates go "I thought you weren't drinking anymore?". I know they're not trying to police me or anything but it feels like having assumed the mantle of Non Drinker now I have to stick by it.

I have a tendency to over-reflect and make everything existential but... my abstention has come at a time of increased interest/focus on (Buddhist-inflected) meditation. I've become conscious of how certain behaviours and temperamental nuances are associated with or exacerbated by boozing. Like, booze is such a fundamental aspect of my social self, I can't quite access the version of me that exists without it. Or, another way of framing that, I'm having to build one from what feels like scratch. And that version, it turns out, is quite antsy, distracted and bored without the booze.

I like how booze softens the edges of my self-consciousness, or smears the tendency to self-regulate. Now, I'm left with the clearer, more explicitly aware version of myself and, yeah, that's ultimately a better way to live but also a giant pain in the arse in social situations.

I've found I can mostly replace the more tangential aspects of booze culture. Like LocalGarda says, I like sitting quietly somewhere with a beer and a book - it gets me out of the house, if nothing else. Turns out it wasn't the beer, per se, and zero per cent stuff is now good enough for it not to matter (once I've got over the quiet shame of ordering it).

In terms of clarity and continuity of mind (can't think how else to put it), being sober is a glory to behold. Like Daniel, I suffer with my guts and that too has been a revelation. I look forward to weekend mornings; I look forward to things like reading and exercising more. On balance, it's a no-brainer, really, but always the whisper.

Haven't had alcohol since November 2022. I had been alcohol-free for a few years before the pandemic, but when the lockdowns hit, my wife started drinking like a pirate, and I joined in, because what else was there to do? I sobered up about a year before she did, and watching her was like holding a mirror up to my face. Even when not desperately drunk, it was nagl, imo. I didn't hit a bottom, per se, but I realized that my life is complicated and difficult to manage, and alcohol did not help that one bit.

I don't expect I'll have another drink anytime soon. I haven't ruled it out entirely for my later years. A guideline I've been working from is that I should only imbibe in intoxicants in celebration, when my spirits are already lifted. Between personal life challenges I'm going through and the general state of the world, it isn't the right time for any of that.

Non-alcoholic beers are more plentiful and delicious these days (although it's not like I'm drinking them every day as a beer replacement - I only get them as a special treat). Non-alcoholic spirits are on the rise too, apparently, although I haven't tried any yet.

In Portugal my "getting out of the house" thing was going to a cafe, having a couple coffees and reading 20 pages or so. This is theoretically entirely possible to do in London but idk the vibes are off.

I like alcohol, I like the idea of it, the mythos, the bon vivance.

So do I, hence why I regulate my consumption. I still mix a cocktail every night and eat dinner with two glasses of wine. Unless I'm grading I'm in bed by 9 p.m., no trouble. Funnily enough, I drink less at home than when I'm out!

Since I can't drink much beer (bloat), I'm stuck with wine after the cocktail, and drinking a lot of red wine grosses me out. If I'm with the right crowd, I can nurse a beer for a couple hours after sharing a joint.

i started drinking probably around the time i was thirteen or fourteen. and i always drank too much. i often did terrible and dangerous things when i drank. i could list my low points but some of them i must already forget. but so i passed a point in my life where for various reasons that no longer seemed acceptable, so i tried to set rules for myself, like not drinking before the sun set, or not leaving the house when i drank, or only chasing sedatives with whiskey when i absolutely needed to sleep. those rules didn't help me. i decided to go to a meeting. i sat there and heard everyone talking about resentment and anger. i didn't feel any resentment, i was sure, and i never thought about drinking when i was angry. so i started again. i did more terrible and dangerous things, at which point, i decided i would go to one more meeting and if it didn't work maybe check myself into a rehab. and i heard the right person speaking at the right moment about the right things (not resentment but thoughtless compulsion to drink in any mood, about the romance of self-destruction, about shyness, about lots of things i could identify with). afterwards, an intense american took me aside and asked me if i thought i was above praying. i haven't had a drink in fifty-nine days.

I only drink in pubs, I never drink at home, and as I don't go to pubs much anymore I don't drink much anymore. When I look back at how much I used to drink - not just me but literally everyone I knew and socialized with - it's quite scary but that's the environment (the country lol) I grew up in. I like being on holiday and being able to booze a lot more than I do at home though.

I usually liked a few pints on a Fri (not every single one but often enough) but bcz I found my yoga class on Sat morning (going there for nearly ten years) it got a bit much to do a strong practice with a hangover. I would still do it but then I got into practicing at home during the pandemic and after, which then included Fri nights so I only have a drink now and then.

My mom was a severe alcoholic from my teens until she died when I was 39. It ruined me and destroyed huge parts of my life. I don't really know how I'm ever going to truly forgive her or come to terms with the trauma I experienced. It impacts my life every single fucking day but despite that I struggle with my relationship with alcohol. I don't have an off button at all and I know that I could very easily go down the same route. I hate that so much. It feels unfair. Anyway, I rarely drink these days - maybe 2 or 3 times a month and I feel fucking awful when I do which is probably a good protective development. So where am I with it? Idk. It's complicated and I really wish it wasn't.

dylannn I’m glad you are doing the work to help yourself

the only things i drink for pleasure at this point are fernet and sake, both of which are delicious and are kind to my stomach, both of which, if i have more than three glasses, i’ll feel fine in the moment but three hours later i’ll realize just how drunk i am, like my body catching up to my mind or something. i dislike that feeling. so like: two drinks is where i’m thinking about stopping now. i’m 38, it’s getting harder, i have sooo many sober friends that getting wasted doesn't need to be a social feature of my life. i also can’t write when drinking, and i have a lot of writing projects going at the moment, and i would rather not subvert my ability to work on them

once in a while i’ll have a beer and. it’s always a mistake

also hi dylann, really proud of you, thank you for posting that <3

drank a lot in my 20s and 30s, was not a good time. went through a long outpatient program 10 years ago. maybe it's the SSRIs but just thinking about beer right now makes me sleepy. i could probably do some damage with a bottle of korbel brandy and some bad news though. but really not interested anymore, it limits me physically and mentally and also if i'm feeling good i just won't stop. it's maybe the only area in my life where i feel like i have actually matured, like i can be like "no, no, there are bigger things here".

really lucky to have struggled with dryness minimally so far. i am probably a total dry drunk, though, just check out my rage posts.

Hi, I drank enthusiastically for 35 years, and loved it. Despite its well-documented problems, I believe alcohol has good qualities - pleasant sensations, rich history and culture, a great relationship with food. Camaraderie, celebration, hospitality, generosity. Lots of people can enjoy these glories responsibly.

Unfortunately all that relatively unproblematic joy ended for me last year. I spent 32 days staring at a hospital ceiling while my organs catastrophically shut down.

I don't recommend this path but it had a pretty miraculous result: when I got out, I had no interest in a drink.

I miss drinking only in a theoretical, wistful way. There are some sensations where an accompanying buzz might be nice, but it is simply too bad for me.

Best wishes out there for anyone who wants a better relationship with their beverages. Also for those who feel they aren't in control. And those who follow whatever method for staying away.

Happy to discuss any of this with anyone.

I can easily put away a 6-pack of beer between 2 and 8 pm, like I did yesterday. I slept exceptionally well and was up and going at 7:15.

It's also too easy for me to put away 9 or 10, especially when my wife is out of town, in which case I do not sleep as well and wake up with dry heaves. So I have been trying not to do this, and have been successful so far (it's been at least a month?).

Been drinking way more 4% pilsners which also helps, the stuff is basically barley pop. It's rare that I won't have at least 2-3 beers in a day. My ideal target is no more than 4, and nothing after 8 PM.

I feel like I might be addicted to the yeast/carbs and not the alcohol!

And yeah, it's all bad for you, they find out more all the time

i stopped drinking in 2018, don't really miss it. i didn't drink too much but i was always worried about being susceptible due to family history

that's why I've preferred weed a lot more lately. I love drinking but your body reacts to it like its poison. hangovers are way worse now than they were in my 20s...god, I remember waking up at noon after 15 Bud Lites and thinking, is this what a hangover feels like? is that all? last time I drank like that was the day before a wedding a year ago and the hangover was so bad I nearly barfed on the elevator. the only thing I could eat until 5 PM was a plain bagel. and even that I had to force down.

weed hangovers exist too but they're not so bad. I can function fine. I kinda like the effects better too. I notice when I'm drunk sometimes one hour blurs into the next but when you're stoned time moves slowly. but that's what you want when you're having a good time, right? for it to feel longer? even better, a strong edible + 2 or 3 beers...now THAT is a good time.

For years I had a single pint of beer every night after dinner (my reward for getting through the day) and probably 3 or 4 when I would go to the pub (maybe three times a month or so.) I thought that was pretty reasonable, more so when some of the guys in the construction trade that I work with would casually offer up that they consumed 18 beers a day! Every day! But only after work; they were compressing those 18 beers into a window of about 6 hours.

Then a couple years ago after a check-up I noticed that my cholesterol numbers were starting to trend in the wrong direction, so I figured it was time to rein things in. I've always been very active, diet was really the only thing to attack. On top of making a major effort to eat healthier, I decided to cut out the weeknight beers; essentially halving my overall intake. And sure enough, the numbers went way back down at my last exam. (Or up, in the case of the good cholesterol.) The system works!

i'm on so many different meds. estrogen cut my alcohol tolerance in half. antidepressants cut my alcohol tolerance in half again. i hate drinking by myself. i drink by myself and i feel silly for half an hour and then i fall asleep and wake up feeling like crap. i mean that could stand to be more specific since i woke up this morning and immediately had a panic attack. you get the point tho.

alcohol is a social drug for me and i don't socialize. i'd probably benefit from drinking more, honestly. i know what i'm repressing, and how much i'm repressing it. i worry about what will come out of i let my self-control slip. it's not like i don't have an addictive personality - it's just that my personal addiction is self-denial. family history be damned, i'm not cut out to be an alcoholic.

god, a lot of the people i know sure are, though. i mean we gotta do something to get through the day. seriously. every other company on earth may abandon queer people, but you know who will always be our staunchest supporters? the alcohol industry. the alcohol industry fuckin' LOVES queers. we drink like elephants - to forget.

it's not that i don't like alcohol. i just go places and it's dark and loud and i have no idea what's going on. that's the other thing. alcohol makes me stupider and less observant, and i like that. i feel less overwhelmed when i got some booze in me. i even start to open up a little, sometimes. sometimes.

and yeah congrats dylannn.

hey thanks everyone.

In a late career change, alcohol became my livelihood and main field of study. I try every day to be mindful of the fact that it's a legal and regulated drug, with the most potential danger for fast harm and slow harm of the legal drugs (incl nicotine, caffeine, THC/CBD). Sometimes it's like handing explosives for me -- be careful, stay focused. There's heavy irony in the fact that the fancy presentation of this drug is also a culinary art. The more I study the drug, the less I use it, but I still love the kitchen science behind its presentation and the artistry in its service. I had two whole drinks yesterday (one for study and one for pleasure), which is a lot for me, but on average my consumption will add up to 2-3 drinks per week in very small portions.

Big sincere congrats to everyone here who has had problems with the drug and is working past them.

I can foresee a moment when I'm down to a drink of X a day, in part out of gratitude for how this aging vain gay man's solicitude for his body mass and musculature wins out over sheer indulgence. The idea of day drinking repulses me. I can have a glass of wine or in a rare moment (i.e. vacations) a cocktail with lunch, but starting at noon and going on through the dinner hour like I used to, like, 15 years ago just...I shiver. These days my body cuts me off.

being sober is a glory to behold

I suspect that the worst thing about always having been sober is having nothing to compare it to, it's just life.

i know what i'm repressing, and how much i'm repressing it

Even sips of alcohol can result in sudden dejection or bad temper, I seem to be very susceptible to its effects. Same with caffeine, which I usually avoid.

i like these threads, it's just so interesting to see how individual and diverse everyone's experiences are. also yeah congrats dylan :). a thing i read recently is that - and apparently this is a cliche, but i'd never heard it - that when someone has a "drinking problem", the problem isn't drinking, it's sobriety. i quit drinking 5 years ago, but honestly sobriety is .. still kind of a problem for me! and i've accepted that it probably always will be. it's a combination of things, my personality, my background, etc. but essentially i'm always going to be "using" something to take the edge off. the past 5 years have been about finding things to use that aren't going to destroy me like alcohol was. those things are: exercise, weed, meditation. i really like this idea that i don't have to rid myself of addiction, i just have to become addicted to healthier things. anyway, those are my 2 cents for this thread and this (always interesting) topic. i remember reading these kinds of "alcohol updates" on ilx back when i was struggling more - it always brought important perspective to me. and it's nice to see where everyone is at with this stuff. all the best.

Seconding. These threads help.

Serious question: were some of y'all drinking enough so that the clarity afforded by sobriety disappeared for long periods? Were you day drinking or drinking through the night? Like I wrote, I drink on weekdays while I cook, after which I'll read or watch a movie in the living room and probably nod off. No clarity needed.

it's been a few years, can't imagine ever drinking again at this point

quitting soda is the much harder thing for me, but have been doing better with that recently

<3 map

I keep meaning to read this:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/148032237-i-quit-everything

were some of y'all drinking enough so that the clarity afforded by sobriety disappeared for long periods?

I'm not sure I understand this question - last major break I took was 3 months and the reason I started again was partly because I didn't notice any difference.

I don't feel I've got anything to contribute but I wanna say what a good thread this is and thank everybody for their posts

I haven't had a drink in over 20 years. When I was diagnosed with diabetes in 2004 my doctor said to stop drinking because there might be a reaction with the oral medications he put me on, so I did. Prior to that I had been a one- or two-beer person, with dinner (or the occasional work lunch), but nothing more. Because I realized in my early twenties that I couldn't write anything worth reading if I was in any way impaired, and being able to write well anytime the urge struck me was always more important to me than being drunk or high. Writing is my addiction, with buying music a close second. Alcohol, which is both an impairment and expensive, gets in the way of both.

I've been asked if I've ever written drunk. I never have because I write in the mornings and early afternoon, never after 5 p.m.

ere some of y'all drinking enough so that the clarity afforded by sobriety disappeared for long periods

It's complicated! I experienced a lot of brain fog that definitely wasn't from drinking itself (that is, not from having a high BAC or active buzz the whole time).

Long Covid? The weird limbo of quarantine living? Lyme disease? The anxiety and depression and despair that you're trying to use alcohol to silence? Sleep disruption? Withdrawal? Post-acute withdrawal syndrome? I had hepatic encephalopathy (where ammonia builds up in the brain because the liver isn't filtering it out, and its main symptom is confusion).

All of those can be driving unclarity. All of the above, some combination of the above, who knows? Chicken and egg.

I am too -- in the sense that it's my fault for underestimating what a problem drink is for many ILXors.

I've been making these glib Negroni/martini cracks for years without realizing, hey, even one of these is for many of y'all.

I haaaaate exercise. The mindlessness of it. I stand there doing bicep curls or whatever and all I can think is "I just need to do 10 more of these and then I can go back to reading."

Or..you can read and walk or read and exercise. I do it every morning -- it's how I get the most reading done.

I think booze is a productive quilt button or nexus point for a bunch of negative behaviours - physical and mental - and provides a locus to work from. If it's over-coded as a cause, I can live with that for now. It 100% doesn't mean anyone else has to, of course.

Table raises a great point that goes beyond the subject of this thread: the need for more third spaces everywhere.

where are we at with elks lodge

Everyone’s different but a combination of a) squats/pushups/sit-ups etc and b) a good deal of walking can do wonders. You won’t look like a model, but you’ll feel a lot better, and see improvement in blood pressure.

I still third-space it up with my friends in bars and clubs and such, mostly doing music stuff, it's just with an NA can in hand. Some of the swankier brewpubs have an NA on tap, which would not have been the case 5 years ago.

yes but to table's point I believe "third spaces" are by definition spaces that do not require money to be there, e.g. parks, libraries, churches, etc

the corner stoop, etc

Not always:

Greeted by a standing ovation and steady roar of applause at Starbucks Leadership Experience 2025 in Las Vegas, chairman and ceo Brian Niccol and founder Howard Schultz reflected on the company’s legacy, its future and the enduring importance of Starbucks as a “third place” — a community hub where human connection thrives.

I think of third spaces as anywhere communal and lingering that aren't home and aren't work.

fair but

Ray Oldenburg observed that, while many third places such as public parks are completely free, they often tend to be commercial establishments. However, Oldenburg emphasized that chain establishments run by large corporations are "less hardy" third places than local, independently-owned establishments, as they divert (cash) flow away from the local community to distant owners.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place

Yeah my understanding of third places has always included bars and coffeeshops, although for sure local establishments are much more successful at that than corporate ones. That said, I once upon a time enjoyed getting a coffee and reading at Borders.

At least half of my third space work is at a Starbucks 1/8th of a mile from me.

here's my regular rah-rah post about exercise. raymond cummings is otm about squats, push-ups and situps. lunges are another really good option. add a little bit of weight with squats / lunges. your body soaks this stuff up. a little bit of resistance - bodyweight or some weights - does about a million great things for you. especially as you get older. movement is medicine. if you feel bored, ask yourself why. there is probably something you can do about it. make it social, gamify it. or go deeper into your body. consider dancing. make it expressive. great way to process emotions including anger. put your brain back into your body where it belongs. we are designed to move in physical space, we are not just brains in vats in front of computer screens.

weights have also met the desire i used to have in drinking a lot to obliterate myself. it is wild how i feel if i go for more than two days without touching weights. like i'm going to implode into dust. both weights and cardio generally make my sleep plentiful and heavenly.

Besides long daily walks, I do sit-ups, squats, and curls.

feel great

the need for more third spaces everywhere

Was thinking about this, and the best answer is indeed breakfast/coffee spots, but unfortunately it's hard to take good advantage of those spaces unless you're free or flexible in the morning. Still, a lot of coffee spots are open later and offer mocktails and other non-alcoholic options. Then there are libraries, parks, table-top game places (that apparently exist). My wife takes weekly walks with her friends that she finds refreshing. It's the friends you're hanging or talking with that are more important than the space you're doing it in, imo.

My local microbrewer also doubles as retail space for a local coffee roaster, a weekly bakery pop-up, and a occasional food truck. It's the only third-space here in town that's actually welcoming: the walls aren't plastered with televised sports, local musicians are encouraged to play there, inevitably someone has a nice dog you can say hi to, and there's never a side-eye if you just want to hang out and read a book and have a beer.

Which is kinda where I'm at with alcohol these days.

Hair of the inevitable dog?

you can all come hang out at my apartment, just gotta mind the dogs

love doggies

you can all come hang out at my apartment, just gotta mind the dogs

― brimstead, Sunday, July 6, 2025

Negronis for everyone!

I haaaaate exercise. The mindlessness of it. I stand there doing bicep curls or whatever and all I can think is "I just need to do 10 more of these and then I can go back to reading."

you’re not doing it right

I would like to be a long distance runner again. I was a wrestler in high school, then became a runner in college although I didn't have long enough legs to really compete. And a weightlifter in medical school and for most of my early middle age in a gay gym where everybody was weightlifting.

My knees started hurting when I was running in my 50s. I was told that that was normal by my orthopedist - that people who were young athletes were less likely to be able keep it up later on because of joint damage, and that people who started running in middle age did much better

A lot of posts here seem super abstract about this topic of alcohol consumption

I never had anything to drink for my whole 30-year career because it was very high stress and I couldn’t afford to, but since I’ve retired I’ve maybe gone too far over to excess alcohol consumption, just because I can. I’m realizing I have to curb it.

My recommendation to unperson is to put on a long ass jazz or metal song and dance to it

haha i mean it couldn't be a bad thing.

also my dude you live in montana! go hiking! then do squats and lunges and stretching to make the hiking better / easier.

yeah, when i lived in mountainous northern California, i was hiking nearly every day.

Shout out user boxedjoy, I knew some of what you posted already but I haven’t seen such a frank discussion about generational relationships to and entanglement with drink in a while

i just found out the other day that a childhood friend died, apparently of an overdose, a couple of years ago. he was one of my best pals at summer camp when we were both 12 but didn’t keep in touch for long after that. it didn’t come as much of a shock, he was self destructive already then. we snuck away for a cigarette once and got caught, they almost kicked us out of camp. i guess that’s a big deal when you’re 12. his little brother was terrified, in tears. one of the last times i saw him was the night jerry garcia died. we both resolved to get into the dead, and i went through a dead phase the following year, but it turns out he became a lifelong fan. i found his youtube channel, no uploads, just the sleep-aid playlists he'd used to quiet his mind. i know the pain. i discovered the deepest well of love for this kid that had been dormant and untapped, and it’s some of the most intense grief i have ever felt. grief for both of us. we were kindred spirits and it was a real 'there but for the grace of god moment’.
my immediate reaction was to mix a strong drink to shut myself down because i wanted to join him and because i wanted to celebrate him by harming myself.
i don’t drink often or habitually. i have little resistance to stress and i believed for some time that i mostly drink to manage fight or flight responses. but here, i understood that i drink because it’s poison, in the hopes that it will kill me. there’s an inbuilt futility, because i know that it isn’t going to actually kill me. i’m not really capable of drinking all that much at once. but that’s the instinct. it’s deliberate self-harm.
i’ve been thinking maybe his way is better. idk sometimes i wonder if sobriety is the right track, oblivion looks sweeter. i quit all my addictions, and most of the time it seems like it didn’t help anything. but shit, these wells are turning up all over the place.

I don't have anything to offer atm except that I appreciate you posting this.

Quitting addictions seems noble, but for some of us who have BTDT it isn't all "life is so much better sober!" That's just so reductive to me; my reality is much less simple.

You sound like a very thoughtful person Deflator; that has big hazards when there's occasion to look into the void. I hope you extend your compassion and love for this guy to yourself as well. Wanting to annihilate the self as an expression of grief seems pretty understandable to me. The thing is, oblivion isn't sweeter, it's nothing at all - can't go worse of course, but also can't go better, there's no "what's next". Your capacity for love and empathy demonstrates your value - I hope you have help or time to realise that.

Deep post, D-Mouse. I can relate hard, as I have those friends (and almost was that friend).

that i drink because it’s poison, in the hopes that it will kill me

There is something to this - part of the drive behind self-destructive behavior is to punish yourself, but another part is to show that you can withstand it and survive.

When I was young I read a lot of Desmond Morris (probably discredited and cornball by now). He writes that from an evolutionary biology perspective, boys do dangerous and goofy shit in front of girls because it is a sign of genetic fitness if you take risks but don't die.

For Morris we are all Tom Sawyer cartwheeling un front of Becky Thatcher. Keg stands, beer bongs, jello shots, speedballs: cartwheels for Becky's attention.

From another perspective: my father is a nasty alcoholic who repeatedly ruined his marriages, jobs, and social position.

So when I drank moderately, socially and for fun, it felt like a victory to show that I could dance with the same demon but keep my soul. I drank while also being a good father, a good husband, a good employee, a good friend, a good citizen. No crashed cars or jail time, no broken marriages, no estranged kids. Fuck you, old man: I'm stronger than you.

But I wasn't, and I got to spend a month staring at a hospital ceiling and slowly bleeding to death.

Tl;dr: Whether you drink because you think you're worthless or because you think you're invincible, the result is the same.

I’d add that one of the main reasons driving my own drinking, for many years, was perhaps related to the “invincibility” element but had a different sort of tenor: I hated society, I hated jobs, I hated what I saw (and still see!) as an elaborate fiction made to suppress our true purposes, so I drank to fuck off from that hatred, to “defy” society. Of course this was idiotic, in retrospect, since a pacified and drunk populace is to the benefit of those in power much of the time, but it made sense to me while I was engaging with it.

I am glad I learned that I can still loathe the world I was born into while finding my joy within it.

For Morris we are all Tom Sawyer cartwheeling un front of Becky Thatcher. Keg stands, beer bongs, jello shots, speedballs: cartwheels for Becky's attention.

From another perspective: my father is a nasty alcoholic who repeatedly ruined his marriages, jobs, and social position.

So when I drank moderately, socially and for fun, it felt like a victory to show that I could dance with the same demon but keep my soul. I drank while also being a good father, a good husband, a good employee, a good friend, a good citizen. No crashed cars or jail time, no broken marriages, no estranged kids. Fuck you, old man: I'm stronger than you.

ah now this i get (mum not dad, well not as much dad tbf)

I have articulated the "slow suicide" thoughts to trusted friends in the past and I can't deny it but let's just say booze is way more nuanced and complex than that, for me at any rate, a godless broken addict

I used to be quite the lush and now, maybe 1 drink (low alcohol spirits or a cider) a month. Okay I had a beer and a Paloma last month at a music festival. And when I drank a lot … the reasons changed over time tbh. I definitely had the self-destructive impulses when I was in my teens/early 20s, but it was kinda like a test? Can I survive this? Like wandering around at night totally wasted … can I get home in one piece? Then it evolved as a way to mask social anxiety. Then it was a way to throw off the shackles of responsibility. I had spent so much time cat-herding drunk people for work, after that role ended, I felt like it was my turn to be irresponsible. So many people I know have recently waxed nostalgic about the Occupy era, and my contribution to that trip down memory lane? I don’t remember. I didn’t protest or join cute leftist book clubs. I just got drunk and partied.

And in another thread I found a post of mine from 15 years ago about how I ended the night discreetly puking in a trash can. …

I support anybody in whatever route stops them feeling so shit, I think for me it's been a long slow process of getting bored

I'm giddily fresh on asda brand Rioja and a quantity of their 5.5%abv continental lager that is sold in mid-sized cans. going to do 4 days of sobriety mon-thurs to make up for unhealthy manic depressive self medication weekend. I'm fucked up enough to just need to drink some days and have to make an effort not to do it it every day!

xps It wasn’t suicide by small accumulated acts of self harm I was getting at- rather suicide postponement by a nonlethal means that achieves some vague approximation of death instantly, but in a nonbonding way. More nuanced? Yeah, booze is the most beautifully multifaceted gem.

i guess that’s the flipside to what YMP is saying (wrt Becky, i really think my friend legit wanted to fall off the edge, even when we were kids).

for some of us who have BTDT it isn't all "life is so much better sober!" That's just so reductive to me; my reality is much less simple.

for sure

Your capacity for love and empathy demonstrates your value - I hope you have help or time to realise that.

aw thanks! i do now, but i never have before. that’s for another thread tho.

i really think my friend legit wanted to fall off the edge, even when we were kids

Oh I relate to that too - the lure of the abyss was strong as fuck for Young Puffin.

In my 50s, I don't think I was trying to drink myself to death. I very much didn't want to die at that point. Not with a wife and children and a house and two cars. But it was also true that a life without pinot grigio wasn't something I was ready to contemplate.

For good or for ill, massive interal organ failure preempted the discussion and made everything starkly simple. Now all the nuances (as you put it) are just things to contemplate now.

but shit, these wells are turning up all over the place.

we encounter unbearable lodes of pain every day, and they accumulate the longer we live!

sometimes i just need to sob. it's better than not sobbing, sometimes - but it doesn't necessarily make me feel better - though sometimes it does.

aw thanks! i do now, but i never have before. that’s for another thread tho.

that's good. the uncontainable joy and the unbearable, wild grief. and then understanding that those same things are everywhere, in everyone. adventuring out there to see it, to let others know they aren't alone, that we're connected.

I stopped drinking in march of 2024. I was using it to manage anxiety and the downsides just weren’t compatible with my roles as a husband and a father.

A year and a half later, I am a little disappointed my life hasn’t improved more. I still feel tired and defeated a lot of the time, although I lost a bit of weight and physically am definitely healthier. But the issues in my personal life that fueled my drinking are still there. In a way everything is harder now.

The big challenge isn’t quitting substances, it i committing to staying present. And there are all kinds of reasons that is hard for people.

and even when you're staying present, it doesn't make the awful or hard shit go away either. it doesn't soften the blows.

one of the good things about drinking for me was that it was the perfect excuse to be silly, waste my time, really get into some music and feel my feelings, laugh and joke with my friends. after quitting, and this took a long time, but i slowly started being able to do those things while not drunk. just, like, at any time. and i started to realize that actually it's really important that i do those kinds of things as much as possible. so i joke around with my partner a lot, probably more than i ever have. i fuck off and allow myself to dilly dally and dream at work, to arrive late and leave early, as much as i can get away with without feeling like i'm jeopardizing my job. i'm like much more of a "bad boy" at work than when i used to drink on a weeknight and show up hungover or call in sick. i still call in sick but just because i want to and i have the whole day to myself. i waste a lot of time doing things i want to do that don't "make sense" according to some journey narrative or grade-progression outlook on life. in a sense, i think drinking was telling me that i needed to allow myself to be more selfish, not less!

it does still kind of blow me away or make me laugh that some days .. like maybe once a week on average .. i have a day where i wake up and just feel like absolute dogshit. physically everything is fine - i'm in great shape for 43 years old - my diet is solid - i'm doing all of the things i should do to keep my mental health up - meditate daily, run and lift weights, socialize, pet my cat, live within my means, give myself travel treats every now and then. but none of that matters. whatever laws that dictate the reality of the universe are just going to give me a day, once every 7 to 10 days, where i'm absolutely cratered. i like to think that experiencing the pits regularly allows me to appreciate the peaks. but i really don't know if that's true. i could stand to lose the pits. maybe that's the lesson ultimately, how on earth do you accept or even think that the lows are necessary.