The TerminPOLLor: The Terminator vs Terminator 2

2 is a great but original feels like the absolute masterpiece of all those shady VHSes I watched as a kid so I can only go one way.

I can remember being absolutely awed as a child, watching the trailer for (18 movie) The Terminator at a movie I have no memory of at all.

Terminator 2 sucks absolute shit, as do all other Cameron movies.

T2 is such a great sequel but I feel like the cold horror movie brutality of the first one is such a singular experience, occasionally ropey effects being part of the charm of course. So many great scenes and such a noirish bleak glimpse of L.A. at the time, right up there with Repo Man in terms of showing the seamier side of the town in 1984.

The first is probably the better film, but T2 meant the world to me when I was 13.

every sequel is a barrel of toxic sludge that erodes and poisons the culture

I unapologetically love T2, so many great moments, from Arnie single handedly reloading his lever action shotgun while on the bike to John's foster mum shutting up his dad with a giant blade through the face. The T1000 is a cool idea and Robert Patrick plays him perfectly. Arnie as yr cuddly terminator pal really works, Linda Hamilton kicks ass.

best james cameron feature film

The Terminator (1984) 19
Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991) 19

OG Terminator. It has a bleakness the sequel can't match

lol the Cameron poll from 2009 was a tie between original and T2 (with Aliens just 1 vote off pace) - tie breaker?

T2 is such a great sequel but I feel like the cold horror movie brutality of the first one is such a singular experience

Cameron basically doing another "Aliens" to his own "Alien."

The first Terminator is faster, scarier, and more suspenseful, in spite of a budget that looks painfully low in some scenes.

Voted T1 because Michael Biehn is beautiful

but i very much love T2 also

I watched both of these in the last year or so. Both are pretty amazing in their own way, The Terminator is the better horror movie and T2 is the better action movie.

Going with T2 here because I guess I just value good action higher than good horror and T2 has some of the best action sequences ever filmed.

I think I’ve seen the terminator twice and t2 about 50 times so I’m not really one to judge

t2 is hardly a Disneyland ride tho fuck off: the vision of nuclear holocaust, mental ward escape, brutal home invasion of the scientist, t1000 dead eyed slasher kills are superlative moments of horror in an (also great) action flick

I’ll concede that although the t800 being on the good side is an inspired twist the fact that he turns actually nice is cloying nonsense & it would have been much better if they had kept that a projection/delusion of John’s, the absolute nadir is that awful joke they put in later cuts where the robot mutters to himself “I need a vacation”

that awful joke they put in later cuts where the robot mutters to himself “I need a vacation”

I'm sorry. what?

I’m afraid so. Yes it sucks

T1 requires you to accept the impossible, but once you've swallowed that everything else follows its internal logic. T2 suffers from a set of plot premises that are impossible, incomprehensible or indigestible, but the liquid-metal killer robot effects are kinda cool.

Terminator 2 sucks absolute shit, as do all other Cameron movies.

― vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino)

You're cuckoo, Aliens is marvelous

I could deflect from that exquisite calz challop by defending Terminator 3 a bit but...nah

I’ll concede that although the t800 being on the good side is an inspired twist

When we showed our kid this film for the first time a couple months ago, we successfully hid that twist. He always likes to see a trailer before he watches a movie, and the early trailers of the film did not let that twist slip. He said he either thought there were two terminators going after him, or T-1000 was the sequel version of Kyle Reese.

The Terminator, like it's eponymous character, is lean, mean, and remorseless. Inexorable.

T2 is a great action flick.

Terminator 2 and i mean by miles and anything else is a challop, painfully challopy like, lile this thread is actually a welcome return to old ilx challopy nonsense

Do you have a problem with optimism? It's ok if you do!

painfully challopy

wishing you a speedy recovery

What's your vote, Aimless?

OG Terminator with Arnie as intended killer of humanity's hopes

"Oooooooozie nine-millimetuh."

"You can't do that"

"WRONG"

Im surprised no one has mentioned how Edward Furlong's character is annoying af

I like the way his voice squeaks at inopportune moments, which is often.

"What did happen to Edward Furlong?" I thought, and just read about his (not especially) private life.
:| :| :| :|

T1 all the way! We even had that weird clonky synth car chase music on cassette and used to play it in our car

The original is great. The sequel suffers from gigantism like every other Cameron movie.

T1 fits nicely with Alien and Blade Runner from around the same time. Pretty bleak, horror aspects, not much humor.
T2 adds the young John Connor which gives a parent - child dynamic but also pop culture tropes, attempts at humor / lightness, and a more direct attempt to appeal to teenagers by having a surrogate in the film.
I’m team T1

T1 for me, and no question. I love how grotty and unforgiving it is.

To unperson's point, I did watch T2 a while back, and, some of the expansive early scenes aside, it's actually kinda minimal in the second half and tightly focused on the family dynamic?

The original is great. The sequel suffers from gigantism like every other Cameron movie.

You guys realize Cameron also did the original one, right?

Or are you just saying all Cameron movies suck*

*except for OG terminator

Almost all Cameron movies suck, except for The Terminator and The Abyss.

The Science Museum had a double-bill of The Terminator and Robocop a few years back... frighteningly 2017, now eight years ago:
https://www.dcm.co.uk/news/see-the-terminator-and-robocop-at-the-science-museum

I went to see it. There was a talk about AI at the beginning - "Could Skynet Come True?". From what I remember the talk focused on physical robotics and nanotechnology rather than AI, perhaps because it was 2017 and ChatGPT was still a few years off. The speaker pronounced Machina as maccinaw. Oddly The Terminator looked better on the huge screen, perhaps because so much of it takes place in dim lighting and it's almost entirely shot on location. Robocop looks cheap in places and has flat lighting, which was a Paul Verhoeven thing.

Perhaps because I grew up in Britain in the 1980s I feel dirty and wrong when I think about The Terminator, because it was "video nasty adjacent". It makes me feel dirty and wrong, and that excites me. The two films capture the spirit of their respective ages. I often wonder how the first film's police station massacre played to audiences in 1984. The police in the film are fairly competent - outmatched, but they do all the right things - and I have the impression the police had a positive image at the time, whereas the sequel was (just) post-Rodney King, and the image of a black-clad policeman shooting innocent people was a cliche of the 1990s, viz Strange Days insert second example here. Did audiences think "haha, take that copper" or "this is horrible"?

A while back I came up with a great way of being better than other people. If someone asks you if you enjoy a film, or a book, tell them that the film or the book - or whatever - is artistically bankrupt rubbish. When they ask you what you actually like, tell them that your taste is too refined for them to understand. I have used this tactic with a 100% success rate.

The speaker pronounced Machina as maccinaw.

Is that not how it's pronounced?

i thought it's more like 'MAH-keen-uh'

Ok, I get the difference.

Is this canon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXx9S2nDouY

Original gets my vote due to the presence of Dick Miller in the cast list (he's the gun store clerk). Also it's better. The only time I saw the sequel was some extended cut with a lengthy and tedious desert sojourn in the middle, or is that part in the original too?

You skeptics are forgetting how cool and cold that T-1000 looks and how well Robert Patrick plays him.

In the first film the story is consistently developed and advanced and it kept one's interest and gave the action a ground upon which to rest. The story of the sequel is mostly made up of poorly recycled scraps from the first film. The implacable T-1000, as excellently played by Ryan, is the only thing that gives the sequel a center and a focus, but the T-1000 has only one motive and only one action to perform and these remain static throughout. The people are reduced to providing an excuse for the T-1000's incredible feats of malevolence.

Apparently they changed time signatures between T1 and T2 themes, and my suspicion is most people's memories of the terminator theme aligns more with T2 than T1 even if they never saw T2.

the desert sojourn dead zone is in the theatrical cut of t2 as well

ppl knocking t2 as a "nice action movie" are trying too hard. i mean, i'm biased, it was my first favorite movie (born in 1987 and primed to see it at an early enough age to think everything it did was impossibly cool). but even when i revisit it i'm seduced by what an operatic science fiction/time travel piece it is. the camera following the road as they drive up to cyberdyne to blow it up still fills me with dread. and there's so much emotional content, to think of it as a bunch of characters just reacting to the t-1000 makes me think you watched the movie on mute or something. sarah's militancy vs. john's empathy is a really beautifully developed relationship unto itself

The people are reduced to providing an excuse for the T-1000's incredible feats of malevolence.

I disagree strongly, especially when Edward Furlong and Linda Hamilton and Ahnold are warm and solid enough to create a temporary nuclear family. It's bigger than The Terminator and it doesn't have sexy Michael Biehn but for an early '90s action film Judgment Day is well-textured. Compare it with True Lies.

i've got nothing against T2 at all (bits of corniness aside), the movie is one of the best showcases for Cameron's skill w/pacing and editing and action framing. Linda Hamilton probably could have won the Oscar for that role (respect to Jodie Foster, of course) but they didn't even nominate her; Bette Midler needed that For the Boys nod obv. It's deeply fucked up and frightening in places. I think my own taste prefers T1 (which is closer in setting and cinematography to Repo Man than it is to T2, much of the time.)

Susan Sarandon kinda played Sarah Connor in T&L.

T2 was released with an R rating but starred a 13-year-old, was widely marketed to children, and had tons of toy merchandising ... in spite of all the killing, insanity, and nuclear dread, I think it was widely perceived as a kid's movie at the time

When we showed our kid this film for the first time a couple months ago, we successfully hid that twist. He always likes to see a trailer before he watches a movie, and the early trailers of the film did not let that twist slip. He said he either thought there were two terminators going after him, or T-1000 was the sequel version of Kyle Reese.

That's so cool. I wish I could experience seeing T2 for the first time and expecting T-800 to be the bad guy. I saw it a bunch of times before ever seeing T1, and I don't think I even realized as a kid that his first encounter with T-1000 was supposed to be a big twist. It's fun to imagine how that hallway scene could look with fresh eyes.

i think eventually terminator 2 even taught me the importance of a good edit, because i finally watched the alternate ending and it's fucking AWFUL

Edward Furlong and Linda Hamilton and Ahnold are warm and solid enough to create a temporary nuclear family

however much the actors strove to put this premise across, the premise was too jarringly out of keeping with everything preceding that to me it felt as incongruous as a rabbit pulled from a top hat.

There's some corny shit in T2 for sure (the aforementioned "I need a vacation," the thumbs-up as Arnie descends into molten steel) but I still think more of it works than doesn't. Add to some of the things that have been mentioned already the scenes of Hamilton in the institution, where she is gaslit, condescended to, and sexually assaulted (the face-licking scene felt damn near pornographic to me as a kid): she doesn't need killer robots; the world is a threatening enough place to her already.

I'm curious how most people would instinctively draw Arnold as Terminator, if it would resemble T2 or T1 appearance more.

I think I’ve seen the terminator twice and t2 about 50 times so I’m not really one to judge

The implacable T-1000, as excellently played by Ryan

I'm curious how most people would instinctively draw Arnold as Terminator, if it would resemble T2 or T1 appearance more.

That's a good question- I think 99% of people if asked to describe Arnold in T1 would say "black leather jacket" when in reality he wears the same jacket as Prince did circa Dirty Mind

Arnie's Lines in "The Terminator"

Beautiful poem.

Now do T2.

They're both really great IMHO. Hard for me to be objective about T2 - my first R-rated movie at the theater, probably my first real "action" movie. But it works really well. You might be able to shed some of its bigness without noticing, but for all that bigness, it moves forward like a freight train, and every damn shot LOOKS so cool and exciting. And yeah c'mon, Hamilton and Patrick are both goddamn incredible - two driven warriors, one the most heartfully human, one the most heartlessly machinic. The most upsetting scene, when she invaded the Dyson family home and then had to pull herself back from the brink, is also where the movie really becomes "about" something beyond time-traveling robot adventure.

And yet... I think I gotta go with The Terminator here. It's like the Alien/Aliens pairing - the sequel is beefier, steelier, more beautiful, more quotable, more satisfyingly relentless. But the original has that awful dreadful gauzey fog of an actual nightmare, without missing one beat it needs to hit to function and satisfy, genre-wise.

Joe Morton and his family are touching, aren't they?

And S Empatha Merkerson as the scientist’s wife - just as she was at the beginning of a long run on Law & Order.

i know now why you cry
but it is something i can never do

There's 215 bones in the human body, motherfucker. That's one!

"my first R-rated movie at the theater"

In the UK the original was 18-certificate - it was one of those not-quite-a-video-nasty films that haunted the video shop shelves in the 1980s, along with Friday the Thirteenth and A Nightmare on Elm Street. But the sequel was 15, which was notable at the time because it meant that I was legally allowed to see it, but simultaneously there was an air of disappointment that it was going to be kid-friendly. Even in the early 1990s there was a perception that the golden age of ultraviolent 1980s action films was at an end. Instead, the future was going to be Patrick Swayze and hugging.

I have a very distinct memory of the sequence quite early on where Robert Patrick's terminator fires his pistol at our heroes without blinking or averting his eyes. He goes blam-blam-blam-blam reloads blam-blam-blam-blam. He really did give the impression that his goal was to run up to Edward Furling and immediately kill him - not deliver a one-liner or gloat, but just kill him immediately. That's unusual for what amounted to a big-budget stalker/slasher film. Usually the villain makes a wisecrack or adds a bit of sadism, but Robert Patrick did not countenance that kind of buffoonery.

Interestingly The Terminator was reclassified 15 in 2000 and remains 15, probably because the gore effects are laughable and it has relatively restrained language. It also has pre-squid-style gun violence, e.g. people are shot and fall over, whereas in Robocop people are shot and there's a huge SPLUTCH as the blood pack explodes, and it's like "get down" and "cover me" and "cocks pistol" and SPLUTCH SPLUTCH SPLUTCH ARGH SPLUTCH and then one final shot in the head like this SPLUTCH.

Robocop is still 18. Even the making-of documentary is still 18. Thank you, Paul Verhoeven. Your devotion to bloody squibs and exploding heads excited my eleven-year-old mind and also loins.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

The vote distribution seems like a fair representation of their respective overall merits.