Did you ever do piano lessons as a child?

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I did, I enjoyed it at first but then I got a new teacher. I had to do them on Wednesdays and my friends were all playing football in the park, this was the one day I had a halfday in Secondary School. I also resented older people telling me "you'll be glad you didn't give up when you're older, i'd give my left arm to play".

Anyway she was a really horrible teacher, she'd be nice one second and then just lose her head completely and scream "you're stupid, STUPID, thick as the wood". As I developed a rebellious streak I walked out on more than one of these occasions. She was so mean, I remember liking it at 10 or 11. Also when she'd get angry my fingers used to wobble and I'd fuck up.


Did you learn piano as a child? I'd give my left arm to be able to play it now.

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:27 (twenty-two years ago)

(I hope I didn't start a thread about this already, I remember mentioning that "thick as the wood" quote before.)

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I started playing around age 12. I picked it up very quickly, but I reached a plateau; my fingers are too crooked and arthritic to play any faster pieces or pieces with very intricate fingering. So I can play slow pieces, basically.

Melissa W (Melissa W), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:30 (twenty-two years ago)

i started learning classical when i was 5, from nuns at the local catholics school and kept going til i was 16. got my teachers certificate and even went as far as teaching it for a few years later on, but the students were too irritating so i quit.
most of the nuns were nice, but one used to whack my knuckles with a knitting needle if i hit a wrong note.

donna (donna), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually want to mention this to my parents when I go home, I feel sorry for 12 year old me now. I got to grade 4 but I also found the stuff I had to play really boring, I mean is piano the kind of thing where your teacher loves to see you play something, and your parents love to see you play something but you don't really care because you have no idea what it is. Now of course I'd be banging out Lazy and Good Life.

Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

of course i did. i HATED the piano. i hated the stupid classical music that they made me play to start with, and i hated the stupid jazz that they tried to 'update' the course with even more. the only thing that i liked playing were the weird, repeative exercises where you played the same atonal chord cluster of notes for twenty minutes at a time in order to strengthen your finger muscles. (did i really have any choice but to love dronerock?)

my parents knew that i was musical, but despaired of trying to get me to train it. i had recorder lessons, violin lessons, piano lessons, flute lessons, singing lessons, and i bunked them all.

the bass guitar - an instrument which at one point my father actually tried to actively DISSUADE me from playing - was the one thing i never had a single lesson on, and is still my favourite instrument to play. because no one ever hassled me to play it, i would sit and play it for hours when i'd never ever practised anything else.

kate, Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I always wanted to. I have really fast fingers so it could have been something I was good at, but my parents never took it seriously and I hate everyone whose parents forced them to.

Graham (graham), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

hrrrmmm, ronan, you have a point. everything that we played in piano lessons SUCKED ASS. how many times can you play When The Saints Go Marching In or Greensleaves before you go fucking mad? if we'd learned duran duran songs in piano lessons, i'd have stuck it out a lot longer. even beatles tunes... honestly. that's why i enjoyed playing guitar so much when i first started - cause i could play songs that i knew and loved and actually wanted to play, rather than nattering awful Bartok pieces.

fast fingers is urgent and key... i wonder if my current typing speed ability has anything to do with those wonderful protodrone atonal toneburst finger exercises that i used to do for hours...

kate, Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I bossed my piano teacher around. I refused to play anything in a major key. But I loved the music I played, which was key.

Melissa W (Melissa W), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I did! I even did music theory. But then I ran up against a brick wall of not getting anywhere interesting any more and PARENTS standing over me telling me to keep on getting better (I got the highest grade you could bloody get!!) and I hated it. I went to lessons and would just talk to my teacher.

Once my lessons stopped I totally stopped playing and lost all confidence in myself that I could produce anything from it anyway.

Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I hate you all.

Graham (graham), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Nah, only violin which I hated and guitar which I liked but was too lazy and stubby-fingered to pursue.

I refused to play anything in a major key

Haha spot the future Radiohead fan...

Archel (Archel), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 17:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm self taught

jel -- (jel), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I took three years, then told my parents I'd rather play saxophone. WHEE!

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 18:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, from age 13 - 16 approx (I played other instruments from a much earlier age than that). I quite enjoyed the lessons, but I usually had to walk out of classes half way through to attend them, which was always embarrassing. I wasn't very good. I passed Grade 3 but failed Grade 4, and that was that.

Jeff W, Tuesday, 3 December 2002 18:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I started when I was 6, and stopped taking official lessons when I was 17. I loved playing and I still do. I never really had much trouble with mean teachers, but I did go through periods when I just wouldn't practice for a while.

A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 19:47 (twenty-two years ago)

I played some songs I really like:
Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Debussy, Satie, Mozart, Bethoveen

I still really want to learn Bruce Haacks mass for solo piano if I can find sheet music anywhere.

A Nairn (moretap), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

i did. i started when i was 10, and stopped taking lessons when i was 21, i reckon.. basically, when i acknowledged that it was impossible to pass the 8th grade exam rehearsing two hours a week... by that time i had started playing guitar and drums in rock bands, and piano seemed like the most boring way of playing music.
god i was wrong. years later i met a band looking for a keyboard player. they were so good that i indulged (that's what had made me learn to play drums as well before: to play with a band i really liked). i had to destroy all the prejudices that classical training sticks in your head, but once i assumed that the best way to play keyboards in a rock band is to keep it simple and not trying to show off (which i couldn't if i wanted, anyway) i started having fun and making interesting stuff. you can make great things playing with just one hand!
now i play keyboards in a rock band. if only my poor piano teachers would see me...

joan vich (joan vich), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

a few piano-playing memories:
- at one point, my parents were going to get me a keyboard so that I could learn to play. either a prospective teacher or a salesperson at the shop stated that I was too interested in playing with the buttons and making different sounds to ever be good at playing piano. this was when I was very young, probably in the mid-80s. I keep thinking that if my parents hadn't listened, then I might have had a beautiful analog synth lying around the house for all of these years. Incidentaly, my favorite music is techno, so it is pretty funny that, even before I knew of the music, I was already acting like the typical non-musician producer.
- also, I did take piano lessons for a while at my house (friends of my parents gave us an old piano). my teacher was really nuts, and she stopped giving me lessons after I requested that we postpone a lesson so that I could watch a crucial baseball game. she said that I was too interested in baseball to ever take music seriously. I haven't watched a baseball game in 8 or 9 years. as for music, well, it is my life. and this piano teacher deserves no credit for that.

Aaron Grossman (aajjgg), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:09 (twenty-two years ago)

I did piano lessons very briefly, but then I've always been from a (predominantly classical) musical background anyway. So I can read music and play the appropriate notes of something fairly simple on the piano, but in much the same way as I know where all the letters are on a computer keyboard - I wouldn't say I can *play* as such. I've been playing the clarinet and on and off some other instruments for something like 15 years, but that's kind of petered out recently as I prefer playing in groups and without that I lose the impetus.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course not. GIRLS!

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Sundar, don't you play the cello?

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

The guitar.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I wanted to take piano lessons, but instead my parents signed me up for electric organ lessons, you know...Kawai or whatever the hell kind of cheeseball organ we had at home. Thus, instead of spending time learning what the pedals did to the strings, I ended up learning which pedals were which bass note, and which buttons produced which rhythms. I can't say that I enjoyed it a whole lot and I ended up dropping out before I even had the chance to do a recital or anything. I also spent years learning violin and can still saw out a tune. I taught myself guitar, and that seems to be the one that stuck, though. Go figure.

Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

I got up to Grade 2 piano and Grade 4 theory, which probably explains why I often prefer ILX to actually listening to music.

B.Rad (Brad), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 21:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Your parents are so cool, Sean.

(BTW, what's the deal with organs? They're like the greatest thing ever but no one wants to learn them anymore. In '88/'89 I remember all kinds of kids at the music school learning organ. By the time I'd started teaching there 10 years later, not a single one. I don't think there's an organist in the program here.)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

We always had a piano in the house and I always played on it. So one day I started taking lessons (I was 8 or 9 I think?) but it only lasted for a few months one summer. The songs I was given were SO BORING and I totally hated them. I liked the songs I wrote myself a lot better. So I quit. But I did get to perform one of my own songs at a school talent show. And whenever I visit my dad's house, I always tinker around on it for fun.

Sarah McLusky (coco), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I sort of wish I'd been forced into something like this in my youth, but it didn't happen in the circles in which I moved. I'd probably only appreciate it if I were taught to play like Esquerita, or maybe Art Tatum, and the odds are rather against that.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 21:10 (twenty-two years ago)

I did piano lessons and saxophone lessons but gave up both for pretty much the same reasons (I think) as Kate. I love playing the guitar because I'm completely self-taught on that. Though I think the earlier training I had probably helped in some way. I could probably enjoy playing the piano again but I'd have to teach myself otherwise I wouldn't enjoy it at all.

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Tuesday, 3 December 2002 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

My parents are quite musical and both play piano, had me take lessons from about 6 to 14 years. I would have rather they continued with ballet lessons, and I think it's the one disappointment for them. I started playing a few months ago actually, my old Dozen a Day books are still here.

Genevieve, Wednesday, 4 December 2002 00:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Older people DID always tell me to never stop playing! My grandma says "at a party you'll be able to play and everyone will be so amazed by you!" It's true at every old house or farmhouse there is a piano. It's a little different now, how am I supposed to impress people at parties?

Genevieve, Wednesday, 4 December 2002 00:34 (twenty-two years ago)

flash boobie

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 00:37 (twenty-two years ago)

air piano with GREAT TECHNIQUE

mark s (mark s), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 00:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Some combination of Jim's answer and Mark's answer.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)

er, i was just going to say both at once!!

electric sound of jim (electricsound), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 00:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I took lessons as a teenager. I quit because I wouldn't practice what was assigned to me -- I played my piano every day after school, but only what I wanted to play.

I haven't touched a piano in a long time. I'm on guitar now.

Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 00:42 (twenty-two years ago)

yes I did. for years on end. then I forgot it and started teaching myself anew ...

robin carmody (robin carmody), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 02:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Dood, am i the only one that still takes piano lessons? : (

vic (vicc13), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 03:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Chupa, don't give them up! You'll when you're older, I'd give my left arm to play.

rainy (rainy), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 03:14 (twenty-two years ago)

you'll be glad when you're older, I mean.

rainy (rainy), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 03:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Im not giving them up after 6 fux00ring years and learning how to play Midnite Cowboy. Oh this thread reminds that i gotta study tomorrow

vic (vicc13), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 03:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I had piano lessons from when I was 7 until I was 14. I only ever got to about Grade 4 standard (I didn't do the exams as they were too scary).

Now I play Christmas Carols once a year at mum and dad's as that is the only access I have to a piano. I love Christmas Carols. I quite like the piano, to play - I hate listening to piano music though.

toraneko (toraneko), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 03:51 (twenty-two years ago)

toraneko, I think you would find my version of "Chopsticks" very moving.

rainy (rainy), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Yay Rainy! Most really best piano player '02

maryann (maryann), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 04:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I agree Rainy! I definitely would. I was more referring to dodgy concert pianist types of cds. Euyck.

toraneko (toraneko), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 04:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I did give my left arm to play and now I can only manage very simple pieces; the applause I receive is the condescending type meted out to the 'differently-abled' for 'having a go'.

estela, Wednesday, 4 December 2002 05:47 (twenty-two years ago)

My brother and I despised our piano teacher so much that one evening we repeatedly ran our big wheels into his dinky little car.

bnw (bnw), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 06:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Ten years. With a crazy Russian woman named Galina with flaming orange hair who would say things to me like "You're too young to know what passion is" and "It's a good thing you have talent, because you certainly aren't hardworking."

I really liked her. That is, when I practiced. When I didn't, her wrath was a scary, scary thing. I learned a lot of cool Russian expletives.

geeta (geeta), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 06:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I took weekly piano lessons between the age of abt 8 - 12. When I learnt to play some piece of beginner's crap called 'I've Got Sixpence' my teacher actually gave me a sixpence (this shows you how long ago it all was...) Eventually I got 'good' enough to be entered in a few recital competitions, whereupon I discovered that a) I didn't enjoy playing in public AT ALL, and b) I was never going to be anything other than a mediocre semi-pro concert pianist at the v. v. best (this was quite a tough lesson to learn as a child.) Of course I now wish I'd stuck at it for longer than I did - don't give up on yr dreams, baby!

Nowadays I can't read music at all, although I remember where middle C is. I'm hoping to master 'In C' by Terry Riley any year now...

Andrew L (Andrew L), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 10:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Got up to Grade 6 prac Grade 2 theory. I was already incredibly gifted and the lessons just made me that much more amazing. I'm still spectacularly shit-hot at tickling the ivories, and if I hadn't taken ten years off from the keyboard to take drugs instead I'd be Brad Mehldau by now

dave q, Wednesday, 4 December 2002 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I really, really, do hate you all.

Graham (graham), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 11:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I started going to a piano teacher for music theory lessons (because I had to pass grade 5 theory to do my grades 6,7 and 8 on the clarinet), and ended up having piano lessons with her too, because my mother decided to get a piano. I wasn't that good at it - I passed grades 1-4 but failed my grade 5. My problem was that I'd spend ages practising the pieces I liked but not put much effort into the ones I didn't.

(often, with boring things like scales and exercises I'd have a magazine or a book open alongside the music, so I could read something interesting whilst I practiced)

caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 11:09 (twenty-two years ago)

my teacher was geeta's teacher only hungarian!!

i started from age 5 and kept having lessons until about 3 years ago (when i was 19 i went on holidays to thailand and didn't tell my teacher when i got back. oh dear. then one day i bumped into her at a recital and things got really ugly.)

i was sorta pushed into being semi-serious about it, not by my parents really, but my teacher was hugely into it. @ 14 i went to sydney to work with a russian woman called mira whose walls were covered in icons (and there was mouldy food in the fridge). i had my first solo recital that year in someone's house and another proper one @ 17 in a hall with the curtains and the getting flowers after and all that jazz. i also entered the dandenong festival for youth eisteddfod every year, and got prizes! the best one was coming third in the visyboard under 25s - because i placed i was asked to perform at local mogul richard pratt's mansion for the visyboard employees and their spouses. at the end they gave us $1000 each, to encourage youth! haha now that i think about it this is how i paid for my trip to thailand.

minna (minna), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 12:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I never had piano lessons, or indeed any musical instrument. I feel quite deprived. It would be useful now that I have a piano at my house (inherited from my landlord's late father). I tried to teach myself earlier in the year, as the arrival of the piano coincided with a spell at home convalescing from my intestinal problems. Didn't get very far of course. I like going to the pub too much (where if there's a piano there tends to be a sign up telling you not to play it). Here in Oxford it seems like EVERYONE can play. It's that kind of place. It might even have the highest ratio of piano players: non-players in the whole country. Of course I have no stats to support this.

I do feel that piano lessons are far too spency. It's a licence to print money it seems.

MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 12:25 (twenty-two years ago)

here's a question: this Grade 1-8 stuff for music. Is it international (appears to exist in UK, NZ nad Australia, at least)? Where did it start?

MarkH (MarkH), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 12:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I had piano lessons from the age of six. I didn't hate it, I just couldn't be arsed. I preferred to spend my afternoons watching everything from Playschool to Blue Peter, having tea and watching everything Mum and Dad wanted to see thereafter.

Lesson Day was traumatic. I remember it getting to four o'clock on a Wednesday afternoon and Mum would sit me on the stool and shout at me while I cried onto the ivories and tried to remember my pieces (I never looked at the music - I'm still shite at sight reading).

Suddenly, at about age 13 I started to enjoy it. The trigger was my first piece of Mozart, which I adored. God, I was such a square. From then on an hour a day or more was no problem. I kept up the lessons until I was about to take my 'A' Levels.

My teacher was (still is) lovely. I regret a bit that she told me exactly how to play each piece, never discussed it with me or asked what I thought, and even worked out every single fingering pattern before I started. Given a piece of music today, I can play the notes but wouldn't have a clue where to pedal, play loud or soft and stuff.

Anyone else who's done Grade 5 theory - were you as amazed as me that you have to sit at a desk, not a piano, while you do the composition bit?

Madchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

MarkH: in the UK there are two organisations that do music exams. The ones I did (which used the Grades 1-8 system) were done by the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music. The other organisation is known as 'Trinity' for short; I can't remember what its full name is.

caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 13:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Air piano with great technique a la Glenn Gould! My teacher (very nice French woman, white hair done up in a prim bun, cardigan) didn't want me to play with any emotion. Nice straight back, strong hands rounded perfectly, clipped fingernails.

Genevieve, Wednesday, 4 December 2002 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

(Graham, you could maybe channel your hate into, say, looking up a piano teacher and taking some lessons...)

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I took them and I liked them from age six to last year. I never practiced enough to get really good, though. I quit because I was busy with a lot of stuff, had trouble making lessons, and wasn't making any progress. I still play sometimes but not that much and I attempt to accompany in choir but my teacher has given me a reallyreallyreallyfastpiece this semester and I don't know how I'll pull it off.

I want to take more lessons when I go to college, from a teacher who will really make me do stuff, so I hope it's not incredibly expensive/reserved only for music majors.

Maria (Maria), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 16:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Were any of you thick as the wood too?

Ronan (Ronan), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 17:26 (twenty-two years ago)

(BTW, what's the deal with organs? They're like the greatest thing ever but no one wants to learn them anymore. In '88/'89 I remember all kinds of kids at the music school learning organ. By the time I'd started teaching there 10 years later, not a single one. I don't think there's an organist in the program here.)
I worry for your sanity if you think those organs are the greatest thing in the whole world. Now, PIPE organs, that would be cool but obviously it wouldn't fit into your typical suburban "entertainment" room. The reason I didn't like the organ much--and I appreciated the fact that my parents got a musical instrument for the family, even if I didn't end up liking it all that much in the end--was that there was really no sense of dynamics to the thing. With a piano you get a satisfying feeling whacking the hell out of the keys and getting a loud noise, or finessing smaller sounds out of those same keys; with an electric organ it was all or nothing and you could only really adjust your sound by see-sawing the volume pedal. I guess you could argue that flipping all of the tonal switches to change the sound was something interesting, but again, it was an all or nothing kind of proposition...all of the keys on the bottom half were the same tone and all of the keys on the top were the same tone, and you couldn't play two keys next to each other with different velocity or sustain. That's the stuff I really wanted to learn, and blatting away at stuff like Greensleeves just wasn't what I wanted to do.

I admit that there's a cheesetastic fascination with those organs now in much the same way that an old Casio is kind of cool, but man, I don't really want to learn that as a serious instrument.

Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 17:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Painful childhood memories. I had piano lessons forced on me, one lesson a week along with 30 minutes practise everyday. I absolutely detested it, seldom ever actually liked the music and hated being forced to spend so much time playing it. This went on for years.

After my teacher insisted I should practise for an hour a day I slumped off to my bedroom in total despair, and wept endlessly. Only then did my parents seem to realise how much I loathed it and allowed me to stop. I was repeatedly told I'd regret stopping when older. I don't.

stevo (stevo), Wednesday, 4 December 2002 18:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I took lessons but my teacher moved away and for some reason we didn't try to get me another one. a couple years ago I tried to teach myself a gymnopedie and was painfully reminded that things like fingerings don't just automatically happen with piano music unlike nifty wind instruments.

we only had an organ to practice on at home, which at the time was a) annoying because it made it hard to practice piano sort of stuff, and b) awesome because it had all these switches and stuff that made it make difft noises. but I never did really 'learn' anything proper about it.

Josh (Josh), Thursday, 5 December 2002 07:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Took lessons for about six years, barely practiced and was pretty half-assed about it. Taught myself how to play decently after I quit lessons, played with my high school jazz band but was too busy playing drums in bands with my slayer-loving friends to make the most of it. Now I haven't played in years but did inherit a nice baby grand a few years back. Once I decide to stay somewhere for a while I'll move it in and start playing again.

webcrack (music=crack), Friday, 6 December 2002 00:57 (twenty-two years ago)

My piano teacher was called Mrs Michelle, and she was a wizened old lady with horn rimmed glasses who would scold me for not practicing and who had some sort of fetish for all things Hawaiian. Her apartment was festooned with tacky Hawaiian brik a brack,such as cane Monkeys and lays, that she collected on her pilgrimages to the islands. She also always smelt of Deep Heat. Im not sure if this was due to her rheumatism or wot.

gazza, Friday, 6 December 2002 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

P.S
It was due to her influence that I took up the guitar.

gazza, Friday, 6 December 2002 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

fourteen years pass...

my present-day piano teacher -- who is more than three decades younger than me, which is also fun -- currently has a placement at CERN!

so i am expecting more xenakis and less bach when he returns (it's the cloud experiment project, so debussy is still cool)

(for long-time readers, he is dr vick's little nephew, now all grown-up nearly) (since among other things he is now like 6'6")

mark s, Saturday, 3 June 2017 13:28 (eight years ago)


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