― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 10 December 2002 23:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 December 2002 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)
― DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)
This is one instance where my opinions of the principle of the thing -- all of the natural law and laissez-faire labor-market equality issues underlying the question itself -- strike me as legitimately eclipsed by that concern, and thus I'm fully on-board with the idea of controlled immigration, complaints about the actual regulatory nature of that control notwithstanding.
― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)
This doesn't affect, however, our moral obligation to take in all those who arrive here with a well founded fear of persecution at home.
― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 00:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 02:31 (twenty-two years ago)
― J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 04:18 (twenty-two years ago)
― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 07:26 (twenty-two years ago)
There is a certain arrogance within some nations, a kinda "if we open up our borders they'll all want to come to our lovely country" type attitude, but not everyone sees that place as the promised land! I've worked with an ethnic group who devote most of their lives to serving Britain, spend the majority of their adult lives working here, bring up their children here and are then packed off back to where they come from when they reach retirement age because "if we let some of them stay they'd all wanna live here". A lot of them find this attitude insulting, even though they come from an extremely poor background they still would rather live at home than here.
― smee (smee), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 08:41 (twenty-two years ago)
― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 09:16 (twenty-two years ago)
― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 09:29 (twenty-two years ago)
― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)
― webcrack (music=crack), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)
― N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)
I’m an immigrant myself (albeit within the EU). So why do I find myself increasingly uncomfortable with previously held beliefs on the benefits of large-scale immigration?
Because the evidence around me is troubling. The Dutch economy benefited/benefits enormously from cheap immigrant labour, but immigrants were largely left to fend for themselves. Certain groups in the Netherlands are clearly struggling. Large areas of major cities have become pockets of poverty, social alienation, deprivation, and crime. An astonishingly large percentage of prisoners are of non-Dutch ethnicity for example. Many are of North African origin, born and raised in NL, Dutch citizens thus, but are struggling.
The problem seem to be growing not getting smaller. There is much talk about the need for better ‘integration’ but on what exactly what that means, opinions are divided. Attempts to blame immigrants themselves are dubious, short-sighted and ignore the fact mass immigration was allowed to happen by successive Dutch governments. Large-scale immigration has lead to huge social problems and tensions that cannot be dismissed as only the result of racism and discrimination within Dutch society (though it exists). Many immigrant groups are vulnerable and clearly need far more support than society has been prepared to offer if they are to prosper. Unless society is prepared to offer that support I think there are good, international humanist reasons to be wary of large-scale immigration.
― stevo (stevo), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)
― stevo (stevo), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)
Having said that, I think our restrictions are both far too tight and racially biased. And I think we have benefitted hugely from the waves of immigration since the war.
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)
lets imagine that 20 yrs ago, this guys extended family were all illegal immigrants living in london. this murder gets reported and the police turn up - what happens to the family? do they get the double blow of being deported as well as having a family member murdered? if not, does this mean countless crimes in this kind of situation go unreported?
― siobh (siobh), Thursday, 9 November 2006 01:37 (eighteen years ago)
― Wand Milius (Roger Fidelity), Thursday, 9 November 2006 05:35 (eighteen years ago)
― Andrew (enneff), Thursday, 9 November 2006 05:47 (eighteen years ago)
― Wand Milius (Roger Fidelity), Thursday, 9 November 2006 05:59 (eighteen years ago)
― ken noizewater, field researcher: capitools division (Pareene), Thursday, 9 November 2006 06:02 (eighteen years ago)
― === temporary username === (Mark C), Thursday, 9 November 2006 11:48 (eighteen years ago)
― blackmail (blackmail.is.my.life), Thursday, 9 November 2006 12:04 (eighteen years ago)
"artificial"?
― benrique (Enrique), Thursday, 9 November 2006 12:05 (eighteen years ago)
― dommy p is alright WHICH IS A LOT MORE THAN I CAN SAY ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE (Dom, Thursday, 9 November 2006 12:08 (eighteen years ago)
― benrique (Enrique), Thursday, 9 November 2006 12:09 (eighteen years ago)
W-w-w-wait, is this a real show?
― A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 9 November 2006 13:58 (eighteen years ago)
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:03 (eighteen years ago)
― richardk (Richard K), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:04 (eighteen years ago)
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:04 (eighteen years ago)
― ken noizewater, field researcher: capitools division (Pareene), Thursday, 9 November 2006 18:44 (eighteen years ago)