Unrestricted immigration: Classic or Dud?

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Is there any reason it doesn't happen other than fear of voter opposition? Is that voter opposition justified in the national interest? If so, are there good international, humanist reasons for national interests being protected?

N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 10 December 2002 23:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't understand the second question

mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 10 December 2002 23:57 (twenty-two years ago)

this is a thread I was going to post! Basically, do people think it would be a good idea if there were no laws stopping people from going to live in whatever country they wanted (or could get to)?

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 00:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, the obvious argument against it is the simple organizational one: unrestricted immigration could result in massive migrations and demographic and social changes that could threaten the ability of a state to govern itself effectively at all. (A simpler way of putting this = "well that'd just wind up a fucking mess.")

This is one instance where my opinions of the principle of the thing -- all of the natural law and laissez-faire labor-market equality issues underlying the question itself -- strike me as legitimately eclipsed by that concern, and thus I'm fully on-board with the idea of controlled immigration, complaints about the actual regulatory nature of that control notwithstanding.

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Its another of those chicken and egg situations. If movement had always been free then maybe inequalities would not be so great, however allow complete freedom of movement now and you impact the economies of both the country supplying people and the country absorbing them. It tends to be the young and the skilled that leave, the very people most needed for economic development. It would be fair to say that unfettered migration would have a detrimental effect on poorer nations. There is also a limit to how many extra people an economy can absorb whilst sustaining growth.

This doesn't affect, however, our moral obligation to take in all those who arrive here with a well founded fear of persecution at home.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 00:27 (twenty-two years ago)

The second question seems to be "is there an idea of a nation that's threatened by mass immigration, and if so, is it worth keeping?". Will a country change if you let in immigrants for a couple of generations? Yes, but then it would anyway. When I was down in Australia last year they were having much debate about this question. I didn't see why: the non-white second generation Australians that I met were as ocker as the rest.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 02:31 (twenty-two years ago)

unrestricted immigration is a total classic, although the general concept of nations is a complete & total DUD, unrestricted immigration being one of the only ways that a nation can keep itself interesting

J0hn Darn13ll3 (J0hn Darn13ll3), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 03:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Answers to this question provide evidence against the usefulness of democracy (especially democracy as issue-by-issue referenda, which is discussed on 'What is America?' thread).

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 04:18 (twenty-two years ago)

whatabout unrestricted open borders to say Mexico or etc? this would also mean effective destruction of all trade barriers which would = "globalization" x 100.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 07:26 (twenty-two years ago)

In an ideal world I think it'd be great, no borders, cultural diversity, freedom to live wherever you choose. Realistically lots of economies just can't handle an influx of immigrants, it's a sad fact and something that depresses me greatly, coz it gives racists a foothold in many areas.

There is a certain arrogance within some nations, a kinda "if we open up our borders they'll all want to come to our lovely country" type attitude, but not everyone sees that place as the promised land! I've worked with an ethnic group who devote most of their lives to serving Britain, spend the majority of their adult lives working here, bring up their children here and are then packed off back to where they come from when they reach retirement age because "if we let some of them stay they'd all wanna live here". A lot of them find this attitude insulting, even though they come from an extremely poor background they still would rather live at home than here.

smee (smee), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 08:41 (twenty-two years ago)

The second question was a bit rubly phrased and should probably have been combined with the first. Andrew got the gist of what I meant.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 09:16 (twenty-two years ago)

This is a good call.
I speak from a biased position, in that I am currently trying to relocate to the home country of my partner of four years. As someone has already stated above, I have a problem with the nature of the control placed on people wanting to immigrate to a certain country, but my sympathy is with those who have to make this decision from a well-meaning standpoint. Uncontrolled immigration sounds in theory like a wonderful idea, but is frankly impossible to contemplate. What irks me is the blanket approach currently favoured by agencies who INSIST that everyone is treated with suspicion, whatever their circumstances. Is it not necessary to distinguish between someone like myself, who is motivated by their personal situation, and someone who is fleeing persecution and violence? Any neutral would surely argue that the latter is a stronger case, and should therefore be the priority, and I would have to agree with that, simply because where I live, my life is not in danger and am (largely) free to do as I choose. If we got rid of the ludicrous notion that immigrants somehow "destroy" a culture or a society, then neither case would be an issue.

Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 09:29 (twenty-two years ago)

what about the idea that unrestricted immigration to a country like the UK which already feels severely over-crowded and drained (well at least Greater London does, perhaps because this is the most densely-populated/overcrowded area of the UK obviously, it doesnt seem to be such a problem elsewhere, even in the other large cities) is bad purely because such a relatively small area cannot realistically cope with such an rapidly increased capacity, especially when the main source of the influx comes from people who are destined to spend the next 5-10 years plus doing the jobs no-one else wants earning about £1.50 an hour thus not being able to spend money and contribute to society in ways other than in their job, being microscopic cogs in a tiny component of a larger corporate mechanism that doesnt give a toss about them in the slightest....doesnt that seem like a really bad idea?

stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Unrestricted immigration was more classic 100 years ago, when a strong back and a willingness to work were all that was necessary to find a job and support onself/one's family. Today those jobs are shrinking fast. Unrestricted immigration, at least for developed nations, would likely put a large strain on already scarce resources. Not because "everyone thinks our countries are so fantastic", but because enough countries are pretty hopeless. The problem of course is that there aren't enough unskilled jobs for the current unskilled residents of most developed nations as it is. We already can't house the homeless and feed the hungry that are already here, and as the problems mount in the U.S. the wealthier residents become less inclined to agree to social programs as they seem hopeless anyway.

webcrack (music=crack), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

London would come to a halt without all the illegal immigrant labourers, kitchen staff etc. doing the jobs that no one else will do.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 18:22 (twenty-two years ago)

(Let me choose my words very carefully).

I’m an immigrant myself (albeit within the EU). So why do I find myself increasingly uncomfortable with previously held beliefs on the benefits of large-scale immigration?

Because the evidence around me is troubling. The Dutch economy benefited/benefits enormously from cheap immigrant labour, but immigrants were largely left to fend for themselves. Certain groups in the Netherlands are clearly struggling. Large areas of major cities have become pockets of poverty, social alienation, deprivation, and crime. An astonishingly large percentage of prisoners are of non-Dutch ethnicity for example. Many are of North African origin, born and raised in NL, Dutch citizens thus, but are struggling.

The problem seem to be growing not getting smaller. There is much talk about the need for better ‘integration’ but on what exactly what that means, opinions are divided. Attempts to blame immigrants themselves are dubious, short-sighted and ignore the fact mass immigration was allowed to happen by successive Dutch governments. Large-scale immigration has lead to huge social problems and tensions that cannot be dismissed as only the result of racism and discrimination within Dutch society (though it exists). Many immigrant groups are vulnerable and clearly need far more support than society has been prepared to offer if they are to prosper. Unless society is prepared to offer that support I think there are good, international humanist reasons to be wary of large-scale immigration.

stevo (stevo), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 18:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Or am I talking bollocks?

stevo (stevo), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 19:15 (twenty-two years ago)

If all countries abolished barriers to migration, I think the world could cope. If the UK, say, unilaterally abolished all restrictions, I doubt that we could cope - there are quite a few countries with far lower standards of living, health care, social support and education, for instance, and I'm sure that enormous numbers would want to move to the UK. We couldn't cope with an influx of millions.

Having said that, I think our restrictions are both far too tight and racially biased. And I think we have benefitted hugely from the waves of immigration since the war.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 11 December 2002 21:47 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...
watching 'lock them up or let them out' before (new glitzy reality gameshow following a bunch of convicts trying to persuade the parole board to let them free) and this one guy is an illegal immigrant who killed his brother's wife 20 years ago. he got parole and deported back to pakistan.

lets imagine that 20 yrs ago, this guys extended family were all illegal immigrants living in london. this murder gets reported and the police turn up - what happens to the family? do they get the double blow of being deported as well as having a family member murdered? if not, does this mean countless crimes in this kind of situation go unreported?

siobh (siobh), Thursday, 9 November 2006 01:37 (eighteen years ago)

I may have to quit ILX soon. Seriously, my blood pressure is WAAAAY up.

Wand Milius (Roger Fidelity), Thursday, 9 November 2006 05:35 (eighteen years ago)

The wealth of developed nations is a artificial and built upon the blood of slaves and pillaged (now) developing nations. Free immigration would most likely ruin Western economies, but wouldn't that settle the score?

Andrew (enneff), Thursday, 9 November 2006 05:47 (eighteen years ago)

Yep, that's it. See ya.

Wand Milius (Roger Fidelity), Thursday, 9 November 2006 05:59 (eighteen years ago)

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

ken noizewater, field researcher: capitools division (Pareene), Thursday, 9 November 2006 06:02 (eighteen years ago)

Bye!

=== temporary username === (Mark C), Thursday, 9 November 2006 11:48 (eighteen years ago)

classic!

blackmail (blackmail.is.my.life), Thursday, 9 November 2006 12:04 (eighteen years ago)

The wealth of developed nations is a artificial and built upon the blood of slaves and pillaged (now) developing nations. Free immigration would most likely ruin Western economies, but wouldn't that settle the score?
-- Andrew (n...), November 9th, 2006.

"artificial"?

benrique (Enrique), Thursday, 9 November 2006 12:05 (eighteen years ago)

Middle classes propose unrestricted immigration so they can get away with paying poverty wages to plumbers, electricians, and carpenters: story at ten.

dommy p is alright WHICH IS A LOT MORE THAN I CAN SAY ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE (Dom, Thursday, 9 November 2006 12:08 (eighteen years ago)

i mean obviously: moral classic, practical total dud. it's not just the western 'economies' that would collapse but the standard of life for everyone (well ok: for the poor) in the west. but hey if it settles an abstract 'score', in which present-day populations have shit all to do with the sweep of history 2-3-400 years ago, why not.

benrique (Enrique), Thursday, 9 November 2006 12:09 (eighteen years ago)

watching 'lock them up or let them out' before (new glitzy reality gameshow following a bunch of convicts trying to persuade the parole board to let them free) and this one guy is an illegal immigrant who killed his brother's wife 20 years ago. he got parole and deported back to pakistan.

W-w-w-wait, is this a real show?

A-ron Hubbard (Hurting), Thursday, 9 November 2006 13:58 (eighteen years ago)

It is a real show but it is a serious documentary rather than a game show, stupid headline grabbing gameshow style title.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:03 (eighteen years ago)

Spain to thread!

richardk (Richard K), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:04 (eighteen years ago)

It would never work as a gameshow format as the vast majority of the great british public are anti anything other than lock 'em up and throw away the key.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 9 November 2006 14:04 (eighteen years ago)

Another drunk illegal kills 3 more Americans http://wnd.com/images/breaking.gif

ken noizewater, field researcher: capitools division (Pareene), Thursday, 9 November 2006 18:44 (eighteen years ago)


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