Athens Vs Sparta

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The First Cold War. When I was a kid I was mad for Sparta, and there's still something very pure about them - as Calasso points out in The Marriage Of Cadmus And Harmony, they are the original totalitarian state and the only one to have realised (at the outset at least) that the judgement of posterity is irrelevant next to the day-to-day exercise of power.

― Tom, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I am Spartacus.

― Emma, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

No, I am Spartacus

― cabbage, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Spartacus is different, you fools, being a Roman slave. Haven't you had the benefit of a classical education?

― The Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

i think you'll find it is i

― gareth, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

A geeks come out where ever you are! ;) Nah, always been partial to Athens, named after my favourite godess, good school of philosophy, some sort of direct democracy, nice weather, decent plays at the theater. Not so uptight as Sparta, the original fascists (or communists if you want to believe another school of thought). Although throwing weak babies down the cliff always sounded impressively hard somehow.

― Omar, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I thought they left them on a hill top on their first night, and only if they survived then they were allowed to become true Spartans? Pretty damn harsh really. Mind you, their soldiers rocked, and they did give us a good, solid adjective, so I'm with Sparta.

― cabbage, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I somehow doubt the weather differential was that enormous.

― Tom, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Spartans were OK at fighting but brilliant at marketing. They very very carefully controlled the artistic output of the state so that everyone got the idea that they were incredible warriors - a lot of their victories were the result of them trading on this reputation. They were useless navally which is a bit of a rubbish thing to be if you have an ambition to be a major Mediterranean power (which they didn't until forced into it, admittedly).

Spartan women were notoriously beautiful though.

― Tom, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

mmm, i always picture Sparta as a grey place with bad weather. And I for one doubt the differences in babes was that great. :) Good subject though, I think I'm going to read up on this stuff again. I loved it as a kid.

― Omar, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Let's not forget that the Spartans ruled over one of the most repressive slave states the world has ever seen. Even by the standards of the admittedly awful ancient Greek world they were a bit much.

Their military prowess is somewhat overstated. As Tom says, they go on about being really tough but there's loads of battles where they only do alright to badly. a particular favourite is where a Spartan led army is defeated by the Athenian home guard who just keep throwing stones at them.

The really great thing about the Spartans is the way they all hated being Spartans. First chance any Spartan leader got and he scarpered off to the well-paid employ of the Persians. Perhaps because of their spartan lives they were notoriously venal.

The Athenians, on the other hand - democracy, culture, fascinating characters, hypocrisy, flamboyance, they have to be your favourite.

― The Dirty Vicar, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

why fight - the greeks invented buttfucking, let's ouzo!

― Geoff, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

So surely they didn't call it 'Greek love' when they were there itself. And knowing the way homophobia works, nowadays the Greeks probably blame the Turks. ;-)

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

The Spartans of course got their ass finally ahem kicked as a Greek power by the Thebans who were reputed to be unbeatable due to power of GAY SEX, i.e. the whole battalion would be made up of couples, the idea being that you would fight twice as hard so as to protect your lover.

Sadly it's now thought this was made up and the Thebans beat everyone due to having a good general.

― Tom, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sadly from what I know of queer culture the less convincing the Thebans story seems. Unless they were not couples but a single unified all-fukt-all monster-falange: otherwise cf dave q on men and infidelity... they wd v.quickly not be fighting spartans but each other.

(True also — lest you think me sexist or worse a Big Bitch — of Amazons if all lesbs; or indeed Verhoeven's Starship Trooper het porn-topia of a galactic force...)

― mark s, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

So if i want to read up on this stuff, what would my book-list look like?

― Omar, Thursday, 23 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Wouldn't military sex have the same power dynamics as prison sex tho, both being closed total institutions with strict hierarchy, etc.

― dave q, Thursday, 23 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

dave q: society not closed when marching across alien territory... some thebans are thinking, when do i get to ditch this idiot [cf komikal pointing-finger legend on his breast-plate] and fuk some hot spartans

― mark s, Thursday, 23 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

eighteen years pass...

this was good i read the whole thing last night - nightmare society:
https://acoup.blog/2019/08/16/collections-this-isnt-sparta-part-i-spartan-school/

tw: evil shit, violence against children, slaves, women

― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 April 2020 15:18 (six years ago)

if you already knew about all the evil shit they were up to it's worth reading if you think they were great warriors (they weren't) or tremendous strategicians (they weren't) or left behind anything to posterity besides the cruelty they inflicted and the psychopaths they influenced by it (they didn't).

― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 April 2020 15:19 (six years ago)

I knew Tom was a bad 'un

― Oor Neechy, Tuesday, 14 April 2020 15:33 (six years ago)

no wonder the alt right loves em

― reality disliker (Left), Tuesday, 14 April 2020 16:01 (six years ago)

man that's tough reading

― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Tuesday, 14 April 2020 16:02 (six years ago)

Knew all that from episodes of Horrible Histories.

― The Corbynite Maneuver (Tom D.), Tuesday, 14 April 2020 16:11 (six years ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLyW5UYPYYs

― The Corbynite Maneuver (Tom D.), Tuesday, 14 April 2020 16:16 (six years ago)

funny but this is def the sanitized version including the bullshit about supposed gender equality in sparta

― Mordy, Tuesday, 14 April 2020 16:22 (six years ago)

wait who was repping for sparta

― ole uncle tiktok (darraghmac), Tuesday, 14 April 2020 16:25 (six years ago)

Dirty Vicar pretty well summed them up in brief back when this thread was shiny and new.

― A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 14 April 2020 16:31 (six years ago)

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