convince me that i shouldn't hate men

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i don't really hate men, but sometimes i need convincing. (please don't abuse me, if you'd lived my life you'd probably have misandrist tendencies too.) give me something i can remember whenever i need to know that half of humanity isn't a bunch of shit.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:26 (twenty-two years ago)

that women are a bunch of shit, too. and if you can muster up a tiny bit of shame or self-loathing, it may help you feel much more pitying and therefore well-disposed to the rest of humanity. (this is from my experience though, not yours, so it's probably totally useless.)

― Maria (Maria), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:29 (twenty-two years ago)

thanks maria for some serious advice maria. but since i get along with women much better than i get along with men, that doesn't help. i don't want to muster any shame or self-loathing at present, when i do its damm hard to dig myself out of.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry for saying maria twice in the first sentence.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Self-loathing is the worst way to go about not hating other people that I can imagine. It'd be a cop-out if you weren't being so hard on yourself.

My father married and had a son, never cheated, never thought about leaving, and once I called him up because my relationship was on the rocks and I had no idea what to do and asked him 'Dad, what can you do when you just give and give and give and give and you feel like you don't get anything back?' and he said 'Oh! That's life!'

― Millar (Millar), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Self-loathing is maybe the wrong word because I don't mean serious "I hate myself and deserve to die" kind, but the "oh man WHY do I keep messing up?" kind (more akin to shame perhaps). It makes me think that if I can't help messing up over and over, then surely other people can't either. So then I feel more sympathetic towards other people and more charitable when they screw up. It's sort of a "we're all in this together" thing. (This would not hold if they did something REALLY awful I'm sure.)

― Maria (Maria), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, that makes more sense, I do that too. Unfortunate flipside however is that I tend to get excessively mad when I'm able to do things I know I'm bad at and other people still screw them up

― Millar (Millar), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:45 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm getting this thread deleted. i've already realised how dumm it is, and i'm sure it's going to make me feel more depressed in the long run.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:46 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry :(

― Maria (Maria), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:47 (twenty-two years ago)

its not your fault. its my own for dwelling on things i shouldn't dwell on.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:47 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm still sorry that you're depressed. i hope you feel better.

― Maria (Maria), Sunday, 26 January 2003 04:49 (twenty-two years ago)

if it makes you feel any better, I don't like men either, and since I AM one, it makes me feel very screwed-up.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 26 January 2003 05:08 (twenty-two years ago)

oh its okay, i'm not sad anymore, i just felt bummed out by that porn thread but then i was thinking that you know, what does it matter to me? my life has never been better since i removed sex from everything but my imagination... i guess it just reminded me about the days when i was having sex and the way power imbalances in the sack were NEVER just in the sack. and a whole bunch of other stuff. problem is i think too much, i promise i'll stop!

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 05:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Di, darlin, IM me! (rococolette)

― j.lu (j.lu), Sunday, 26 January 2003 05:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, di. When I said that I'd responded to your post it was in reference to another comment on another thread. It sounds like you're bak in balance now, but I am going to paraphrase something a friend once said to me, when I was having an "I hate men, they're all idiots, assholes, worthless, egotistical schmucks, I'm going to only be involved with women from her eon out" week. Basically, she said:

Men are worthless. They're incosiderate, they're rude, they're self-absorbed, they lie/cheat/steal, they have no respect for the environment, they think only of themselves, they can't be relied on, they're just annoying to be around. etc/.

Then she said "change the first sentence to "Women are worthless," and re-read the paragraph. It pretty much still holds true, in general.

The she said is wonderful. They care about the world. They care about people. They go out of their way to be helpful. They love me as I am. They do their best to make the world a better place. If they weren't around I'd feel an emptiness in my life.

Basically, it's that in general humans aren't the most endearing species. We really do have some major flaws, as a group, and I can understand those people who argue that the world will be better off once we kill ourselves off in some idiotic war. But as individuals we, as a species, are incredible. We care for each other, we love and nurture and support each other, we try to the right the wrongs done by previous generations, we try to make the lives of human and creatures better, we create incredibly beautiful artistic things for the pure joy of creating and sharing, we try to raise our children to be even more aware of their surroundings and their responsibilites toward others.

So I try, now, to think of the individuals that I love and respect and to hell with the rest.

― I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Sunday, 26 January 2003 05:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I say, Don't give up on men,because on this planet,You can find at least one decent, honest man amongst all those bastards,because If I did, so can You.*hugs*
P.S. Were You trying to say You want to go 'the other way'? I don't know If you were, but remember women can be nasty pieces of work as well,not just men,I know this from all the Jerry Springer shows I have watched.*shivers*

― becky lucas (becky_lucas), Sunday, 26 January 2003 05:44 (twenty-two years ago)

hmm... i don't think i wanna find one man on the planet to love me etc etc. going the other way... the woman of my dreams decided i was a bitch many years ago now. its just hard to reconcile everything that's happened to me with being physically attracted to men. and knowing all the crappy shit that some men have caused in so many people's lives.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 07:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Men are horrible, di, but so are women. I mean humanity in general is full of fuck ups, assholes, and whores. That's just how things are, you know? It's just a matter of getting past that and finding the right people. Most of my friends are guys. Some of them are fuck ups, assholes and whores but in a decent sort of "everyone makes mistakes" type of way. If you get along better with women, hang out with them, date them, whatever, but for every dickhead guy, there's a bitchy woman, for lack of better terms.

― Ally (mlescaut), Sunday, 26 January 2003 08:16 (twenty-two years ago)

you dudes are all right. i should stop bitching and start appreciating what i do have.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 08:27 (twenty-two years ago)

i had band practise and now i feel better anyway.

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 08:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Men are scum and can't be trusted. Even the nicest seeming man is a built on a core of complete cuntishness. It's important to remember this when conducting a friendship with a man.

― toraneko (toraneko), Sunday, 26 January 2003 11:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Women can be fairly "cunty" too, T. They're better at disguising it, maybe. Di, if you hate men you hate me.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Di... just think of me, and Toraneko for what its worth if youre still online I never said sorry to you and Martin and the other guy(to name a few) for being such a wanker- so sorry.

― Kiwi, Sunday, 26 January 2003 11:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps look at it this way - if men are intrinsically scummy then you should be doubly impressed with those that work hard to overcome their nature.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 26 January 2003 11:45 (twenty-two years ago)

everybody's a fartknocker.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Sunday, 26 January 2003 11:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually T-Bone's comment shouldn't worry me as I've never made any effort to SEEM nice. If you see me as nice, it's because I am.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:02 (twenty-two years ago)

N. is OTM with his pleabargain.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:06 (twenty-two years ago)

And if women are naturally great you shouldn't be impressed by them at all!

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:09 (twenty-two years ago)

It should perhaps read "impressed with any attempts they make at overcoming their nature" in order not to imply a simple 'good guy' / 'bad guy' dichotomy.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Just to lighten things up,remember that vibrators can't mow the lawn or get a round of drinks in.........

― Eugene Speed (Eugene Speed), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:15 (twenty-two years ago)

If you're using a vibrator and worrying about the state of your lawn it's time to get a new vibrator.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

'Scuse me,love.Would you like me to mow your lawn,or trim your bush?

― Eugene Speed (Eugene Speed), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:23 (twenty-two years ago)

you sound like paul baron.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Do I know said Mr.Baron?

― Eugene Speed (Eugene Speed), Sunday, 26 January 2003 12:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anyone?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 13:17 (twenty-two years ago)

i think hating anyone, whether specifically or in the abstract, is damaging to the self and should be avoided if possible

― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 26 January 2003 13:41 (twenty-two years ago)

We're all made out of both, for a start

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 13:42 (twenty-two years ago)

We're all made out of both, for a start

The Facts Of Life, brought to you by Andrew.

― Livvie, Sunday, 26 January 2003 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, lava lamps are GREAT.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, what a wise man.

― Livvie, Sunday, 26 January 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I could never hope to reply to such a witty comeback.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:00 (twenty-two years ago)

No look I just did! I didn't do very well, though.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Even though you had ONE MILLION great replies in stock, obviously.

― Livvie, Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, I TOLD him to write something. We are bringing yr thread up to 40 replies, Di.

― Livvie, Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I wouldn't waste them on you, fuckwad

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

And I was under the impression that "fuckwad" WAS pretty much yr stock of replies, I'd like to see you prove me wrong. You forgot "tall", anyway.

― Livvie, Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh go live in Christchurch then... oh but wait! You do.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:09 (twenty-two years ago)

stop being rude. especially if you're just messing around.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

"We're all made out of both,for a start."

Actually,ladies,just remember that you all started as a rib.Taken from a bloke.In biblical terms,anyway.

― Hugh G.Rection (Hugh G.Rection), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah RJG I'd hate to derail this vastly intelligent thread!

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:16 (twenty-two years ago)

But really, what do you care if we mess around? Was the initial thread so worthy of reverence?

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

you're still being rude, please stop.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

you're still being rude, please stop.

Um, can you tell us why you don't like us being rude? Because I certainly don't mean any disrespect to Di, and up until then all we were being rude to was each other. And are we interrupting any huge amount of serious discussion? Because Di already felt better, and as far as I can see the thread was kind of distintergrating into arguments anyway.

― Livvie, Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

And moronic comments like mine, and SOMEONE ELSE'S

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually do think this is a serious question. I don't know a huge amount about Di's context, but I know the context my ex-wife existed in for a long time. She had grown up with a father who beat her mother; then later a stepfather who sexually abused her when she was still a child; then she worked in refuges for victims of domestic violence, and served on the child protection committee in this area, reviewing cases when things went seriously wrong; and she was an expert witness in court cases on the effects of sustained abuse on women. It gave her an unusual amount of exposure to many of the worst traits of men, and she was intimately acquainted with the details of many deaths and rapes and cases of all kinds of abuse, of children and adults.

She told me that I was an important counterbalance to all that. Not, I think, that there was anything especially wonderful about me, but that she could see none of that abusive nature in me at all, and it was important for her to remember that there are men without such tendencies. This is one of the best bits of praise I've ever had - and, in fact, it meant almost as much when a couple of her coworkers said the same thing about me.

Anyway, enough boasting. I started this to say that I understand how people need some counterexamples sometimes to the not infrequent disgusting behaviour of very many men.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't even know what to say here, it's just depressing.

― Ronan (Ronan), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I'm sure this was a serious thread. And yr answer made lots of sense, Martin. We just though that Di's question had already been answered, and like I already said, we weren't hassling anyone except each other.

― Livvie, Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:38 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't really hate women, but sometimes i need convincing. (please don't abuse me, if you'd lived my life you'd probably have misogynist tendencies too.) give me something i can remember whenever i need to know that half of humanity isn't a bunch of shit.

Sounds kinda wrong, doesn't it.

― jot eff pe, Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I didn't mean to have a go at you, Livvie - I just wanted to make the point that some people's contexts make this an understandable and important question.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I took the question seriously, too. It depressed me pretty badly.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Briefly! And I was susceptible anyway.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry, I was hoping to make you be more rude.

like di sort of said: it is depressing when you think about it--like almost anything--but when you don't think about it so much...you 'realise' that it isn't actually a truth about all of mankind or all of a gender and you understand that everything is OK.

― RJG (RJG), Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

You should have told us this earlier, I had a great sarcastic answer lined up and everything!

― Livvie, Sunday, 26 January 2003 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh I'm SURE you did.

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Sunday, 26 January 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Everything in my experience, and the experiences of my friends, suggests that women are every bit as awful [1] as men, and every bit as capable of being abusive and destructive. The difference primarily lies in the fact that female aggression and cruelty tends to be covert, rather than overt. Perhaps that seems like a bit of a gross generalization, but I think it's more or less on the mark.

Also I think there's much in our vocabulary and approach that lends itself to taking female "bad behavior" less seriously than its male counterpart; part of that is due to our general cultural tendency to see things in binary, black-or-white terms -- something which doesn't lend itself well to analyses of covert and passive aggression (not to mention mutual aggression). There are also all kinds of unexamined assumptions, both here and in society and large, about the rapacity and mendacity of maleness, and about the innate moral superiority of women, but I won't get into that today...

[1] (and wonderful!)

― Phil (phil), Sunday, 26 January 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I really don't like saying this but there have been times in my life when I have hated women... everything about them except for sex. It has been, of course, when I've been having a long and deep running argument with a female.So, I can understand it when a woman says that she hates men... all men.

― Randy Farang (TOOTHFANGCLAW), Sunday, 26 January 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

if it makes you feel any better, I don't like men either, and since I AM one, it makes me feel very screwed-up

hey justyn, would you like to join the Men's Auxiliary of SCUM?

― di smith (lucylurex), Sunday, 26 January 2003 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

my ex locked himself in the corridor at work and was there for 2 days and now I don't hate men anymore. I feel nothing but love and sympathy

― isadora (isadora), Monday, 27 January 2003 01:56 (twenty-two years ago)

God Valerie Solanis was a dick

― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 27 January 2003 02:23 (twenty-two years ago)

then she should be chopped off!

― di smith (lucylurex), Monday, 27 January 2003 02:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Di: YES!

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 27 January 2003 04:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Aw, she just wanted to be bigger.

― Millar (Millar), Monday, 27 January 2003 05:01 (twenty-two years ago)

hating things is dumm

― ron (ron), Monday, 27 January 2003 05:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Men are great! Fuzzy stubble to rub yr. chin against and nice toned chests and... mmmmmm

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Monday, 27 January 2003 05:49 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah ron, what time is love?

― di smith (lucylurex), Monday, 27 January 2003 05:51 (twenty-two years ago)

i think it's in like um a couple of hours

― ron (ron), Monday, 27 January 2003 05:55 (twenty-two years ago)

i want smutty ILE back.

― di smith (lucylurex), Monday, 27 January 2003 05:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Why can't we all just
get along and live as one?
Oh sorry, wrong thread.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 27 January 2003 06:52 (twenty-two years ago)

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