Calvinism: C/D

my feeling is that the dourness of the pre-destination thing is a bit overstated or overemphasised. The idea is that as God knows everything, he knows which people will end up being saved and which will damn themselves. The people still have the free will to choose salvation or damnation, but God knows which one they will choose.

No read it! Even though I'm only 200 pages in and read agonizingly slow these days, it's amazing. I forget what Barzun sez about Calvinism, but he has a positive spin on it (I think how it made the individual more important and led to all those nice Renassaince ideas). Plus, that Whore of Babylon I hear so much about seems like more a dud.

my feeling is that the dourness of the pre-destination thing is a bit overstated or overemphasised. The idea is that as God knows everything, he knows which people will end up being saved and which will damn themselves. The people still have the free will to choose salvation or damnation, but God knows which one they will choose.

I’m no theologian but this strikes me as closer to Arminianism than Calvinism, with its emphasis on ‘conditional election’ i.e. men having a choice whether they accept salvation or not. The five basic theological points of Calvinism (as spelt out in the Synod of Dort) are

1- Total Depravity (fallen man was totally unable to save himself)
2- Unconditional Election (that God's election purpose was not conditioned
by anything in man)
3- Limited Atonement (that Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all
men, but efficient *only* for the elect)
4- Irresistible Grace (that the gift of faith, sovereignty given by God's
Holy Spirit, cannot by resisted by the elect)
5- Perseverance of the Saints (that those who are regenerated and justified
will persevere in the faith)

Thus taking Predestination to its logical conclusion before the Fall God decreed election (i.e. who would be saved and who would be damned) and permitted the Fall as a means to allow this to happen. Thus it was never the intention that Christ's atonement open was to all, but rather that section of humanity that God deemed the 'elect'.

Thus were is the room for free will here? Little I can see. It leaves most of humanity predestined to go to hell.

The whole point of Clavinism is that FREE WILL doesnt exist, they drew the conclusion that the human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life. As a consequence, man is predestined before his birth to eternal punishment or reward in such fashion that he never can have had any real free-power over his own fate.Man can perform no sort of good act unless necessitated to it by God's grace which it is impossible for him to resist.

This is a repulsive doctrine, the idea that every human being is pre destined to hell or heaven regardless of their actions or deeds is absurd. Sin alone is the determinate for going to hell, although we cannot condemn anyone to hell obv, thats up to someone else.The whole idea goes against both our reason as well as our moral sentiments. It is crazy for a Christian to speak of the human will "co-operating" as Calvin says,with God's grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things.

The whole point of Clavinism is that they drew the conclusion that human will, instead of being master of its own acts, is rigidly predetermined in all its choices throughout life. As a consequence, man is predestined before his birth to eternal punishment or reward in such fashion that he never can have had any real free-power over his own fate.Man can perform no sort of good act unless necessitated to it by God's grace which it is impossible for him to resist.

This is a repulsive doctrine, the idea that every human being is pre destined to hell or heaven regardless of their actions or deeds is absurd. Sin alone is the determinate for going to hell, although we cannot condemn anyone to hell obv, thats up to someone else.The whole idea goes against both our reason as well as our moral sentiments. It is crazy for a Christian to speak of the human will "co-operating" as Calvin says,with God's grace, for this would imply that man could resist the grace of God. The will of God is the very necessity of things.

The book is not only a great expose of the idiocy of Calvinism, it's an early (1820s) excercise in unreliable narration, 'the psychological novel', multiple perspectives, etc.

I'm particularly interested in links between extreme forms of Protestantism and political liberalism and aesthetic avant gardism. The tendencies towards asceticism and purism found in Calvinism can, in a post-Calvinist context, produce radical art and politics.

one odd thing about it, is that as far as I know Unitarianism is an off-shoot of Calvinism. Unitarianism is fab - it seems like it's a religion who like all the good bits of religion (the sense of community, the having vicars who chat away about stuff, the having something to do on Sunday morning, etc.) without all the oppressive stuff about believing in God or the Bible or any of that.

And the Muggletonians.

I grew up in a Calvinist community, and it is pretty dour. My hometown (I've mentioned this before) is an immigrant settler community founded by Dutch Calvinists in the mid-1800s. It has a changin social makeup, like the rest of the midwest, but it has consciously and assertively retained a Ye Olde Hollande air, largely for tourism. But it's a town of about 11,000 and there are about 30 churches, so there you go.

In my experience, the doctrine of predestination manifests itself in constant pressure to toe the line in your behaviour and your material acquisition. Some are elect --> all virtue is similar --> your status as elect/damned is unknown to you --> virtue must be demonstrated outwardly, but not flaunted.

It's maddening. "Keeping up with the DeJongs" is the real barometer of goodness in this kind of community, not piety or reflection or charity or good humor. Ask a Calvinist what "grace" is and he'll spit "something unEARNED!" The whole thing seems based on a huge reservoir of unexamined contempt for God himself.

(everyone go watch Babette's Feast)

I have a copy of the very thing around. I think I'll get it to sometime soon...

Interested in what Momus says about Calvinist aesthetics - could you give contemporary examples? and how do you define protestant aesthetics in general?

Out of the Flames, a recent and surprisingly readable book about the antitrinitarian heresy, John Calvin, the reformation, and the rise of Unitarianism. I'm not completely up to speed on the relationship between the two, but based on this book, it would seem that describing Unitarianism as an "offshoot" of Calvinism might be stretching a bit.

Fun fact about Calvinism:
When I DJ'ing there in the late 80's, the Calvin College radio station had albums by The Damned with stickers on them that said to refer to them as "The Unelect" when announcing them on-air.

With all respect to the Damned, the Unelect is a far superior band name.

(But by making impossibly wide speculations it seems that conditions 4&5 of TULIP are slightly flawed in this circumstance)

Appeal of Calvinism: intellectually rigorous. I would say that, on balance, a Calvinist view of salvation is easier to justify on Biblical grounds than a more liberal view (though there are contradictions, or at the very least tensions, in scripture). The Calvinist-friendly verses outnumber the Arminian ones. See Edmund Cohen's Mind of the Bible-Believer. I don't think he proves many of his claims, but he does provide a lot of insight into Calvinism, not historical insight, but some psychological insight, I think. He also reveals its sordidness quite nicely. Cohen started out at Westminster Seminary, the same seminary my sister's Calvinist husband attended, but he renounced Christianity before completing that degree.

I was on my way to becoming a Calvinist (under my sister's influence), when I began to doubt Christianity altogether.

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"--Romans 9:22-24

"Whatever a man thinks, plans, or carries out before he is reconciled to God through faith is accursed, not only of no value for reghteousness, but surely deserving condemnation." (p.104)

Calvin's Institutes: A New Compend, edited by Hugh T. Kerr.

"What then shall we say? is God unjust? Not at all? For he says to Moses. 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion' It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but God's mercy."

and farther down in Romans 9:19-20

"One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?' But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?'"

I think this is a very clear statement of the Calvinst belief. The reason why I think Calvinism is very reasonable and far from the most horrible world view ever is because it doesn't depend on man. Man is infinitly more insignifigant compared to God. So why would anyone have a world view based on who man is instead of who God is?

It seems that people who are against Calvanism care too much about themselves instead the whole picture.

haha, the perfect belief system: doesn't even really need believers then, does it?

I suppose the point of Calvinism is some kind of return to the state of angelic intuition, the pre-lapsarian total union with god's will: no need for free will if you do exactly as you're told (the telling being done by prominent townsmen, doncha know). The whole thing reeks of spiritual cowardice and a profound contempt for god (as I said upthread). unable to deal with the massive unknowable x-factor of free will and why god wanted us to have it, they decided to write it out of the equation and turn him into an accountant. mystery, compassion, GRACE, the gift/curse of the Fall into language --> into LOVE = too big a grey area for people interested in a faith that has none, so just short circuit around all of that and: look ppl there a LIST, in or out. easy peasy!! how do you tell if you made the cut? well, did you make sure your buick was washed and waxed before going to church or not?

I forget what I was originally searching for but it turned up an interesting read. Eric Hoffer once said that Calvinism came, in part, from Romans:

"10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

From here it might be logical to say that since no one is capable of good that salvation must be revealed through something outside oneself. From here we get into predestination and God revealing himself with no merit on the part of the person receiving grace.

People are chosen individually by God in the same sense the Jews were chosen as a people. What did the Jews do to receive that title?

Calvinism is just about the sickest belief system ever.

I remember my sister reading the line: WHO WILL BRING A CHARGE AGAINST GOD'S ELECT?! in the shrill tone of some female leader of China's Cultural Revolution.

That sick bastard Calvin is buried about 500ft. from my office here in Geneva -where his influence is still felt about 500 years later. G3off C4nnon absolutely OTM upthread

The book to read is Stefan Zweig's Consience Against Violence.

Pleez go and piss on his grave for me.

It is one of my pet projects and I think I'm not the only one. See, the demonstratively humble dictator made sure he's remain an example of rigorous minimalism after his death by having the most diminiutive grave: it's a nasty little rectangular bush surrounded by a thin black gothic grate, topped with a minuscule stela engraved with the letters "JC" (geddit? so we know who he thought he was).

The thing is buzzing with nasty flies. I can only guess why they're attracted to that particular bush...

I remember my sister reading the line: WHO WILL BRING A CHARGE AGAINST GOD'S ELECT?! in the shrill tone of some female leader of China's Cultural Revolution.

"Geneva is in unacceptable condition!! FIFTY YEARS DUNGEON!!!"

Fun fact about Calvinism:
When I DJ'ing there in the late 80's, the Calvin College radio station had albums by The Damned with stickers on them that said to refer to them as "The Unelect" when announcing them on-air.

this is fantastic

The Calvinist doctrine of predestination has always struck me as being about as appealing as swallowing a fishbone. If everything is foreordained, what is the point of playing it out in reality? Why create multitudes of souls, set them spinning, and then damning them wholesale, without any possible alteration in their course from birth to damnation? That's just deeply weird to me.