"You may be surprised to hear this, but we're on a date."

nyeh, love, it doesn't come when you expect it to.

(Partly a joke of course, but I am wondering how you can be on a date with someone and they not know about it?)

It didn't bother me that much. I figure we're all a little bisexual (some of us more than others), and I didn't want to jump down his throat for being confused when I've been confused for all of my adult life. But it would have been nice to know for sure why he didn't seem that interested in sex -- was it me, or does he just not like women as much as he says he does?

Well, you just treat it as if it's a date. You get dressed up nicely, you flirt a bit, you have overly vivid thoughts on what the person tastes like, etc.

Perhaps it helps if you are willing to let yourself be a little insane/deluded every once in a while?

The gay dad thing is a total straw dog. Means nothing.

Also: not seeming 'terribly romantically or sexually interested' in women is a *lot* different from not seeming 'terribly romantically or sexually interested' in *you*. Which one was it?

And while we all made jokes about it, it is nevertheless quite clear that he is, for all intents and purposes, straight.

At any rate, looking gay has nothing to do with being gay (especially here in Portland, where looking gay is the default, and it's only the people who look really gay that you can harbor any suspicions about).

Which, of course, is not to say that this particular guy isn't gay.

But if he's an ex, why care anyway?

Hard to tell. I mean, it's faulty logic to consider these things based on what someone ISN'T -- but he didn't really notice other women, or talk about any women (besides me) that he thought were sexy, or make any of the usual "red-blooded hetero male pig" remarks that other het men in my life have made (although that probably just says something about my taste in men).

His sexual interest in me? We were pretty affectionate, but sex was frustratingly rare, and not very, er, successful when it did happen.

As someone who's mistaken for gay A LOT, I can assure you that it's very possible to conciliate a possibly-outwardly-gay appearance with a loins-on-red-fire-for-hot-chix0r libido

Is this just a Mark [initial] thing, or do others have to confront the issue??

MarkH to thread!!

I think it's because I'm too nice. (Well, also I'm not so into "casual" sex. That is perhaps the "real" "problem".)

So you're faced with a choice. You can stick to your current strategy and continue to be disappointed over and over again. Or you can face up to the fact that your present thinking on this problem is inadequate and get cracking on a new strategy. For example, join a gay rights organization and use it as a dating service. You wouldn't be the first, I suspect. Your new motto: I'll do anything to improve my odds.

I also realized that I can't stand being "involved with the gay community".

It's sort of like when people tell me, well, your problem is that you don't go to gay bars, etc. Sure: That would help, maybe, in meeting single gay men. But I hate going to the bars -- nothing goes on there that I enjoy doing, and I end up feeling alienated and depressed. And I suspect that most of the people I could meet at bars are people who like going to bars and who would be upset that, now that we were dating, I didn't want to go to bars with them anymore.

So. Bleh. Really I'd much rather just run across a great guy in some non-meat-market setting. Isn't that more or less how it's "supposed" to work?

But, yes, maybe I should be doing anything to improve my odds.

Anyway yeah - I haven't read this thread that carefully (I kept wanting to should 'Elaine Bennis to thread'!) so apologies if this has been clarified, but I am confused as to how Chris P thought it was a date without the other guy knowing, what with him turning out to be straight. Did you go for dinner or what?

I had no indication that he was straight (or not straight) until we were on the "date"; he mentioned an ex-gf. We had a terrific conversation about books and music. Had it been a date, it would have been a very successful one, as far as I was concerned.

But I haven't mentioned any of the "date" aspect to him. (He should have known I was gay before we met in person from comments made online; I mentioned an ex-bf during the conversation.)

We have hung out again since and there's a good chance we'll both be going to a show tonight.

(I have visions of him googling my name and stumbling across this thread, in which case: Hi! Hope this doesn't freak you out!)

Is it clear now?

Lately I have become a lot more paranoid about not doing anything that could remotely be construed as flirting, when interacting with men I think might be gay, just to avoid awkward situations.

But, really, I'm not likely to do this, because I'm worried about freaking the guy out; you weren't likely to explain yourself, because you thought your position had been made clear; your almost-friend wasn't going to explain himself, because he thought things were going according to plan and nothing needed explaining; etc.

Instead, I got to find out that he was gay later, after developing a helluva crush on him. It was a bit embarrassing.

Since, he tends to casually mention something about an ex-boyfriend in conversations.

As a bi-guy who surpisingly developed a crush on a close bi-friend whom I have known for years and not felt anything sexual towards, let me just say: sometimes, dreams can come true. The problem starts when they do. Just remember, erasing boundaries between "(sexual) love" and "friendhsip" (especially if its an old one) can rightly bring upon an emotional apocalypse.

Be careful of getting what you want.

Someone really should start a Sleeping with your friends: C or D? thread.

You're making me remember things I don't exactly want to remember right now!! :( Bad Rockist! And you're also proving why I think the risks, if taken, should only follow much deiberation and introspection.

Anyway: I have managed to get the friendships past the unrequited desires before, many many times. The longer I hold onto the hopes that maybe, maybe something could happen, the harder it is to shake the desires and actually be "just friends", but I have run that obstacle course before, you know? I'm an old pro.

I used to have very different types of friendships between friends and lovers, to the point where crossing over from one category to the other seemed unlikely, but my last serious bf and I are still great friends several years down the road, so I wonder if the paradigm has shifted.

I thought of lovers as fulfilling functions X, Y, and Z in my life, whereas friends fulfilled A, B, and C. There was surprisingly little overlap (beyond, you know, "putting up with my gawdawful puns" and the like). So moving someone from a role where they do A, B, and C into a role where they do X, Y, and Z (and where A, B, and C aren't all that important) would of course lead to problems.

While I myself have felt this before once (don't ask what happened), I think its lame now, since: a) every different friend you make can potentially open new life experiences for you and b) you never love two people exactly alike, so why would you want to close and limit all of your affection off to only person, when you can successully have multiple emotionally (but not sexually - well not recommended) rewarding relationships at the same time ?

Love your friends, just not in that way :) or else it leads to unfulfillment and rejection, and like you said you already have experience with getting over this

(Dammit... why won't that work with Hilton?)

Goddammit, being considerate is sooooo hot.

I am, however, not a very patient person when it comes to this sort of thing, because I get restless and unfocused (and sometimes depressed and all that stuff) when dealing with an uncertain crush (even though, really, this one seems fairly certain to be doomed). So. I probably shouldn't pounce (meaning, admit my crush to him) at the V Day show. Right? Even though it seems appropriate. I could give him little candy hearts that say "Be Mine" and "You're Cute" and "No, Really" and "This Means You, [name]" and "Come To My Place And I'll Call In Sick Tomorrow" -- but will that even fit on a heart?

God, Chris, killing me softly with your song. This reads like one of my diary entries right now! Is it just something about the songwriter artiste type that drives us to it.

Kate, if I were trapped in your body, I could probably land this boy!

I’d suggest the three date rule— no shag by date three, doomed to friendship.

Are you quite sure you're not a gay man? ;-)