is ILX run by Aquarians?

ilx is run by GEMINIS!! (or is it... ?)

ile wz born on MY BIRTHDAY

:(

Should there be two different charts, one for ILE and ILM, or should they share the same destiny under ILX? I guess they are both different entities with wholly unique characteristics, so I'm guessing the former

they are the TWIN BEEYOTCH!!

Give me your birth data kids (tie and location, like i detailed above) and i can start up the free readings (orderly queue, please) FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY!!!!

Anyone know the latitude/longitude?

I am an aquarian.

Ok Dublin. Hold on (and i seriously can only do this for a few charts as i recently just switched to Mac and there re no freeware mac astrology programs, its shit, i'm using this Kairon program i downloaded which suXor, and i have to wait a few months b4 i get a real program again which uses the sidereal zodiac properly)

yeah incapabale of intimacy, well they can achieve it, but they seldom want to since they fear it so much and generally its very hard to reach them emotionally since they live in their (fucked up) minds

If anyone can be arsed to work out my birth chart, the details are: 23:25 UTC, 4th February 1978, at roughly 53.57 deg N, 0.06 deg W.

caitlin what is uct

(if you want to be pedantic, they are occasionally very slightly different, but never by more than a second)

I just rand my mother and she says I was born just after eight o'clock. She reckons it was probably about six minutes past.

Does this change anything, Vic?

Anyway, Lara, it's an interesting chart regardless. If the ascendant is Scorpio, then it's considerable better: Mars is domicile in the first (which is why you were probably not kidding re: your invitation towards violence), and gives you a lot of confidence and even a limited amount of fame or recognition. A whole lot of other planets in the 1st, some wealth with Venus in the 2nd, but the problem in this chart would be Saturn lurking in the 8th...

If the ascendant is Sagittarius, however, as I'm suspecting it would be since this shit program calculates everything one or two degrees behind with this ayanamsha, the chart is a bit more challenging. You are attractive and quite sexual, and with the second lord aspecting th e 1st still have enough welth to get by, but your unconscious mind is flooded with too much stimuli. Probably don't sleep peacefully, VERY interesting dreams. Mother and fAther had a lot of problems, you may have strained relations with them, maybe one was even confined somewhere, and you have been separated from major relationships/parteners, or might be someday. Emotionally troubled and subconsciously violent. An interest or aptitude for artistic pursuits with Jupiter in the 3rd, however, and on the plus side, a very spiritual nature is indicated - you'l grow into that if you haven't already. A lot of spiritual progress can be made in this lifetime.

I'm a left-handed Gemini. Born June 16, 1961 at 11:41 am in New London, CT. I'm in charge of all the longtime, one-post-a-day, semi-lurkers around here.

Nice chart, honey. You actually have a yoga (combination) for fame what with that 9th lord/10th lord (the luminaries, no less!) sitting in the 1st house with 1st ruler Mars in its own home - I definitely can see you getting apt recognition in your career in time, whatever field it is, since Jupiter aspects the 10th. You are confident, brash, argumentative, attractive, outgoing, emotionally overwhelming and Scorpionic. You live on attention. You are also a bit weird with Rahu in the 1st, and you certainly date strange people or are attracted to them (ketu in 7th), but these relationships may not last. Daddy may be dominating. Mother still suffers, as she would have if it was a Sag asc, but she is still oddly happy and you have a good relationship with her. Your siblings go through trouble. Are all of them alive? You try to have a positive outlook despite your depressions. You will certainly be well-off, financially, may gain some $ through partner.

Stop being so self-centered.

And apparently I have moon in Scorpio, danger danger!

Is Stop being so self-centered. a message from the stars?

tying it all to stars and dates and numbers is the bit scientist-types get all fussed about: but the solid stuff to be arguing against, and disproving, is the dynamics — ie actual motion, actual cycles — of specific psychological nexuses (nexi?)

if you wanted to find out about human nature, who would you ask, a conman or an astronomer?

(james randi can suck a warthog dick)

Actually, that's hardly an explanation, is it?

james randi can suck a warthog dick

Hmf. He's a hero of mine.

far more harm is done to trust in science by vast, increasingly unpoliced chemical and pharmaceutical corporations (not to mention the accelerating collapse in the trustworthiness of the established system of scientific peer review)

haha the destruction of uri geller's "paranormal" credibility = the producers of "get me out of here i'm a celebrity"

he is on TV too much in the UK: use other bearded bald men plz

Michael Eavis!

(Also, I agree with mark re: the "Amazing" Randi. PSICOP has not operated entirely above board in the past. Ha ha, I read about it in Robert Anton Wilson and Colin Wilson.)

I poste a VERY, OBSCENELY long "answer" to no one in particular on this thread, which reveals not only how I am a mentalist, but also obsessed with astrology. SHOULD I POST IT/ IT WILL SERVE NO PURPOSE AND I DONT EXPET ANYONE TO RESPONDE TO IT. IT IS JUST TOO LONG. BUT I SPENT HOURS ON IT AND DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT.

I do not get embarassed by what I write on here (tell us something new?) so its not that I'm scared of being exposed as a mentalist now, it's just that this post might scare some people, it scares ME, its so long. Maybe it will crash ilxor.com? What should i do? Should I post it?

Help. Tired.

if it is longer than that seek help

Or Humphrey Moseley.

For what it's worth, Vic, you don't come off as a mentalist in person, you seem very nice. I'm going out now, so I probably won't have time to read it. I'm not nice.

Hey, it's finally raining! Isn't it great! I'm gonna go play in a storm drain!

ok here goes. u d00ds have been warned maybe i should cut it in two though?

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its TOO LONG TO CHECK!

I'm not even going to go into a "defense" of astrology here (isn't that extremely patronizing to start with? actually I don't know how long this post is going to wind up being, God help me) as I already know I would be wasting my time against the biased, and besides, what good does any of that do? Everyone will believe whatever he or she wishes to at the end of the day, but as Newton said as he was pressed on about his astrological obsessions, it should not a matter of "belief," it should be a matter of what is (or isn't) Truth. (Yes, some of it Absolutely exists!) I wish more attention had been paid upthread to my discussion between the differences of the Eastern and Western systems (before I began discussing Lara's chart), and you can also look for the brief comment I made to Kate regarding Sagan and the clash of civilzations on the lesbian conversion thread, if you care. It's imperative to understand that this discussion is as much about a long-standing cultural or civilzational difference first of all, if any discussion is to take place ---- well, now it is, as Westerners have decided to fully disown their own spiritual heritage, since the time of Darwin, or wait, was it Apostle Paul ? (Those evil, heathen Gnostics!)

It just strikes me how Linearist Western "science" remains, especially in regards to Time....we are at point A, *then* we will progress to point B. At point B, we are more "advanced" than all of those peoples were who lived during point A. Never mind how everything in this relavitistic Universe, from our bodies (everything from menstruation to metabolization to breathing), to the seasons, to the revolutions of the gigantic orbs in space, all runs according to cycles. Time is cyclical in Nature, but when it comes to humans and civilizations, of course WE are at the most advanced and knowledgeable level NOW!! Since WE define advancement w/ technological innovation, and of course we are "ahead" of all of those ancient civilizations, what with their crazy, "unscientific," rudimentary beiefs - mankind lived in CAVES 10,000 years ago, haven't you heard?? even though humanity has been around for almost a million years! We know this for sure since Carbon is fool-proof and 'cuz we are systematically piecing together skeletons! She's called Lucy! Because the Beatles rawked!!

Of course, others see things differently - that nothing is new, that spiritual knowlege has been around forever and that it is not contingent or dependent upon technological sophistication (a clear difference between internals and externals, if you will), and that indeed we may have lived in such technological sophistication before as well, (which says everything about its value, as we lost it.) That perhaps civilzations go through epochs or life cycles as well, just as humanity (and the Earth!) as a whole is going through just another *cycle* - instead of progressing in an endlessly linear direction of greater scientific aptitude and knowledge. In regards to being inside of the cycle, yes, we may be momentarily "progressing," but it's a circular advancement, for we are not gaining any new ground; we've been here before.["Space" is not "the final frontier," it's not external but in our own minds - and it's been conquered; think of every genuine saint or mystic who's mastered consciousness.] To be even more outrageous: that beyond this limited material realm, which is defined to us through our 5 senses, there may just be another spiritual realm, upon which the traces are still written of our collective past. (Audience screams: material proof rooles, sorry!!!)

But now everyone MUST adhere to the FACTS that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt: silly, supestitious ancient peoples anthropomorphized planets and places since they were "scared" of them (never mind the astute astronomical calculations they made such as determining that the precession of the equinoxes takes 25,000 years, far longer than any civilization of antiquity existed). Ancient? Oh, maybe we could just substitute the term "Non-western" peoples in there (since it seems to make no difference!)...but is it even necessary? Most of them are smart enough to accept the truth now. Since 300 years after continous colonialism and imperialism, most of those "Non-western" people have accepted our Official version of what happened that we, the wise and victorious Western Scientists, have settled upon, and those who haven't, are just silly superstitious non-Western people not worth paying any attention to. The winners most literally are writing history, I guess, but now that I come to think about it for a, uh, second (sorry), the Western fixation on Linearity in regards to Time may indeed explain Western civiization's obsession with Youth (and Beauty), as it dates back to Greco-Roman times. To hault or pause Time, since you only live once - may we remain Young forever. Where's that damned fountain??

Modern Western civ's Linearity Love is even more apparent when it comes to Thought instead of Time, I suppose, since it is just inconceivable that two opposing thoughts can be true at the same time, without either one being untrue. Those baffling Eastern scriptures. How can one even begin to read the Veda without accepting some paradoxes as valid, when so many verses flat-out CONTRADICT the point made in the previous one ? [Just like that phrase I used up above: I said these words regarding Truth - "some of it Absolutely exists," but if some of it is Absolute, then the rest must be Relative. How can Truth be Absolute and Relative at the same time? If It is, then It's relative (by definition) anyway, but for some reason, It is both Absolute (meaning It can't be relative, at all), and Relative simultaneously -> even though that is "impossible," it is also, eh, True! This is just one example of a paradoxical Vedic concept, to which I probably did little justice. To give a further hint: Truth down here in this relativistic/dualistic world is Relative; it is just Absolute Everywhere. G'ah, another paradox inside of the first one!@ Sorry for this side-note].

Sure, paradoxes are just a "cop-out," anyway, oh, and we can further cop-out on our own anyway and say that religious texts are drivel and Religion in general is not near the "truth" ever since the "Enlightenment" when we decided that "Science" will explicate the world for the rest of time (except, say, for Time's own origin and attributes, well we're trying so please give us credit). But ever since Europeans stopped listening to church bells so closely and started noticing the external physical world for once (in 1500 years), exchanging their crosses for compasses and Bibles for barometers, the rest of the world has had to follow in their footsteps, realizing that "religion" is inadeqate as far as wordly explanations go and science, supreme, renouncing one set of dogmatic ideas for another. Why? Especially when Euros were reacting only against one religious paradigm, Judeo-Xianty's medieval illogic and irrationality?

How can Western civ project its irrational (sorry) current fear of religion onto Eastern civ, when in the East, religion and science were never originally opposed anyway, as I've said once before on here?? Knowledge was knowledge, vidya in Sanskrit. RELIGION COULD BE LOGICAL ::SHOCKAH!:: Religion/dharma, Scripture/Veda, God/Brahman were never suspected of being "illogical"; if anything, the causality was always attempted to be explained quite carefully by the Teacher/Guru with the inclusion of those self-contradicting precepts that required leaps of linear logic (they were explained on an intuitive, non-verbal level - hang on). There was no agonizing conflict between scientific learning and religious learning, as it was all usually taught by the same guy, your lovable (and/or strict) Guru-dude. In Western civ, OTOH, why has it always had to be one extreme or another --> religion for 1500 years, or else blasphemy and death, and then, Science, or else endless ridicule and contempt? This is of course, a (gross or over) simplification and is inaccurate to some extent, as are all generalizations, but what I'm driving at is that it is most unfortunate that when the East, or India specifically, (Japan has fared better), has had to choose between Scientific Rationalism which was presented as Modernism and traditional religious thought, it obviously had to choose the former. I seriously think Jyotish (Vedic astrology) should still be taught in Indian schools, just like it had been for milleniums, but starting in the late 19th century, anyone who wanted to be seen as a "progressive" in society would have to disown spiritual learning and cultural history, and obviously this was quite influenced by imperialism and who was writing the history books on the subcontinent at that time (Max Muller, this means YOU). And it seems unfortunate that whenever a typical Westerner can easily dismiss astrology as a whole, thinking its not even WORTHY of thought, (as I assume Martin Skidmore did), he or she is acting out of the 3-centuries old Western/Enlightenment reaction against anything religious or supernatural that was in the Western world, forgetting that astrology was also part of the religion of the Eastern world, which never had a "logic vs. superstition" conflict, as all of the very intricate rules of Vedic Astrology do subscribe to a rigorously logical scheme. How many Westerners who denounce astrology even know of the mechanics at play within Indian astrology, which is not based on the personality in the first place (which is why your attempt to lambaste all astrology for attribution in retrospection, Oops, does not work here) ? It is almost hegemonic in how deeply ingrained all of these biases are, as I said on the lesbian conversion thread, and quite ironic, for how "open" science is supposed to be.

Why am I still writing? I want to win the all-time AWARDs for Worst Post ever AND Longest Post ever. Or Most Incoherent, too. Now I'm guilty of something else here - I don't mean to imply that Eastern religion/Hinduism continued bearing its original spiritual clarity and did not devolve into, yes, superstition and silliness, just like all other religions did, over the course of time, and start including hideous practices in its fold (like burning women alive!). But regarding matters of the opposition of religion and science, it was still more balanced than in the West. The civilizational divide is so great, yet since the East has had to recently follow the West in the name of "progress," it has had to quuestion its own systems and subjects of thought for the sake of "science." The sad part is, there can never really be harmony here, it will remain incompatible - well, I should say in regards to how "science" is defined in the West today. If things remain the same in the Western "scientific" system, Jyotish could never EVER be accepted. There WILL NEVER BE ANY "PROOF" OF INDIAN ASTROLOGY, WHICH IS ACCEPTABLE TO THE WESTERNER. IT WOULD BE FUTILE TO TRY TO FIND ONE.

Let's face it: the civilizational rift is just too great (why else do you think I keep having to put quotes around science, since the definition is variable itself, dependent on your geography!). Western civ is hanging onto empiricism like a baby needs a pacifier. I'm sure everyone would agree to that. Something has to be observable, measurable, repliacted by others, if it can even start to be accepted. Now, in regards to practice, this may not be such a problem: anyone can pick up a Jyotish book, learn how to cast charts, and start predicting events for an individual, and test the outcome, all of which is observable (This has attempted to been done by the debunkers of Western Astrology. The problem is, since WA is centered around something so subjective as personality characeristics, one is inevitably bound to come across obtacles leading to the objective). No, the incompatibility problems/conflicts arise in the foundational ideals and theories of Indian Astrology, which are founded upon Vedic philosophy and, well, Western science.

Western science, aside from deifying logic and rationality (you have to worship something or Someone, I guess - is this a human "need," psychiatrists?), is founded upon empiricism. Therefore, it believes the 5 senses will lead to truth. Vedic philosphy's whole goal is to make one's consciousness transcend the five senses, in order to learn the truth. Western science (which has major p*r*o*b*l*e*m*s defining consciousness, btw) as it is depenedent on the 5 senses, could NEVER even acknoweledge the existence of either a) a spiritual realm beyond the material one and b) a human soul, as both of these are impossible to discern using the five limited senses. As Indian philosophy's central tenet is that not only is there a soul but that it incarnates (you get to live more than once in the East, therefore no fountain, or youth/beauty obsession!) again and again, and that it accrues karma along the way (karma being the results of past actions, as every action begets a reaction), and Indian astrology is principally the study of what one's karmas in this life will be, Indian astrology is therefore totally outside of the speculative scope of Western science. For now (that's important, who knows what will happen in 50 years as Western world learns more about light?).

All of this could have been summed up in one word, however: intuiton. All of those principles in that last paragraph that are at the basis of Indian philosophy, the ancients said that they would become discernable to us through our Intuition, not the intellect, or any amount of analysis or intellectual understanding - not thinking or reasoning about it, but when you stop thinking, turn your mind off, and let the Inner Voice of your intuition guide you ---> usually via meditation (there are other techniques too, almost all involve control of the breath - an objective indicator of which state of consciousness one is in!!). The East believes/believed that Intuition not only exists, but is more important than Intellect. The West has been idealizing the Intellect (and Reason) since the time of the Greeks to the detriment of exploring the intuitive side of mankind. The Easterners, on the other hand, detailed their findings - there are no fewer than some 40 words describing "consciousness" in Sanskrit, whereas I can only think of one in English: um, "consciousness." Truth is not only objective in the East, but subjective as well (remember the paradoxes? Why I tried to bring it up first..), internal and personalized, as opposed to only being observable.

To get technical about its principles, astrology is the study of 7 planetary rays of light (Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn - yes I know that Sun/Moon are not "planets" in astronomy, and that the newer planets are not included, but do you ever want to sleep?) that cannot be discerned except through one's intuition; Jyotish itself in Sanskrit literally means "lord of Light," which has a meaning outside of the literal: astrology was intended to be an illuminating study on how to live one's life, as it could inform you of what specific karma you'd have to be dealing with in your specific incarnation. An ideal astrologer would use both the intellect (to make the calculations) and the intuition (to prognosticate) whilst giving counsel, but could not expect to ignore one and aim for accuracy. Moreover, all of the principles that astrology is founded upon: reincarnation, karma, the spiritual realm, can be discerned only through Intuition and not Intellect, which is why ultimately (and yeah, supposedly, and duh, after much meditation, of course) an astrologer can become clairvoyant, not even needing a horoscope/birth time to determine your past and future karmic circumstances. Since the West has never accepted Intuition as being equal to Intellect, has such problems with a concept such as Intuition which falls outside of the scope of empiricism, and has produced such rare and few REAL intuitives in the recent past (I'd reckon Edgar Cayce being one of the only real ones of the 20th century) how could astrology possibly hope to flourish in the West, or appeal to post-"Enlightenment" Westeners? This is why astrology has only survived at most as a psychological exercise in the West (aside from an entertaining parlor game found at the back of women's magazines), cut off as it is from its spiritual roots, whereas the tradition has continued s always in the East. Even now, most Hindu families in India, from the affluent and Westernized who dwell in cities, to the poorer and rural villagers, have an astrologer they consult either regularly, or at least during pivotal life events such as marriage, and when it is time to perform one's funeral rites. etc. I am just talking about the widespred appeal though...certainly not the accuracy of all of those astrologers. Since an awakened intuitive faculty is pretty hard to come by, and since astrology is such a vast an ancient field within Indian scripture, you can guess the high number of charlatans and amateurs that are making money casting charts right now. (My paternal grandfather visited a family astrologer who was just average, I've heard; my maternal grandfather was,an astrologer, although only on the side!! As a hobby) It's a very high percentage of fakes.

And all this is why, again, the definition of "science," and the geographical issue it is incumbent upon, is so significant: you cannot take a practice which is representative of one system's views on reality and expect it to be "proved" or legitimized using the other system's conditions on how reality can be evaluted and how it *should* be explained ("through intellect alone"). It is not only impossible, but impossibly unfair. Keep the civilizations distinct, if it's going to come to this, such...value judgments? Can I say that?

Now I don't mean to go off on a tangent here (why am I still up??) but um, here are my personal views regarding the differences, even though it is probably really bad to talk about your own religious views in such an uber-intelectual environment such as ILX since everyone has to pretend to be cynical and agnostic and cool and jaded all the time (except for Anthony, who is so lovable and *charming* and funny in his brevity that he can do anything!), but heyyy, this whole post has broken new records for "bad," in SO many ways, so why stop now? Big surprise, since I practice jyotish, of course I think that the West is wrong here and that the Intuition exists. If you haven't paid attention to it all your life, how can you expect it to work? It needs to be used first, or else your instincts will never come through (this is why some people say "everyone is psychic."). I imagine the Western scientist, adhering to the rules of empericism, measuring everything in his external reality, then going back to analyze it and make sense of it through the Intellect, then measuring again - this will be endless, since it will get you nowhere, you'll be stuck on this material reality! The material, external world is Finite - the internal one is not!! But since your consciousness is externalized since birth, you're never aware of that, it's like it's a big secret. I can only imagine the Western scientist
walking down this corridor, trapped in his endless analysis, and only until he finds the door marked "intuition" will he be able to escape. Now this shouldn't sound as if i'm against skepticism, it's just that... everyone will go about their circular ways wondering how a verifiable "proof" of intution will ever come about - but if you don't use it, you lose it, so it's catch-22ish. I don't know. How do I put all of this in words without drawing a picture?

Drawing a picture is a good example, since it reminds me how one astrologer said that astronomy without astrology is like looking at a painting and describing it using what oils were used on it, instead of just saying what the painting IS OF, or telling the story you see in he painting. Same thing with chemistry and alchemy -> you are deconstructing the universe, okay, you've got the chemicals, but you are totally missing the big picture and the original metaphor which alchemy stood for anyway: to get that philosopher's stone, that meant enlightenment, it was an internal process. You can measure everything there is in this material world, but that won't tell you how it got here, or whether there's a world beyond this one, or what will happen when you take your last breath, but you can go on measuring if you want to, and you can also take the easy way out and think to yourself that "it is impossible" to figure out the answers to these questions, whereas others have. Of course the planets are alive, pulsating beings (with souls), just like the Earth is a sentient being, it is just that you cannot sense all that right now since it's on the astral realm (which is where the dream world is too!). It should be noted here that very few people get to open their intuition and sense all of this right now anyway, but that has to do more with the *collective* level of where our intuition is, one's collective and indiviual karma, and the number of shrooms one has done. If in the west it is now accepted that everyone has a mental and emotional side to them, or a masculine and feminine side, then I do not think it is such a stretch that one day it will be accepted that aside from the intellect, there is another faculty when it comes to processing and/or knowing things/the world. It's all correlative, of course: the masculine, mental, intellect and the feminine, emotional, intuitive side form the ying-yang halves of all of us, this has descended down to the most accessible levels of pop-psychology now. What is less discussed is that Western culture has been fixated on the masculine/intellectual for so long, it is seriously unbalanced, and how or why the Church, symbolic of dogmatic patriarchy itself, wanted to deny the feminine principle all throughout the middle ages (manifested in, you guessed it! burning women alive! hey hey, now doesn't that sound familiar - also through the utmost resistance to "pagan" beliefs of Divinity being Feminine creeping into Xianity). Yes, I'm sounding like an agenda-laden neo-Wiccan suggesting that the Church fathers were knowledgable about Occult principles and violated them, covertly, for power issues, how blasphemous and/or New-Agey-gobbledygookish of me. [ I loathe the term "New Age" by the way, since it was co-opted by hippie-haters to describe ancient Eastern beliefs that were briefly fashionabl in th 60s that are not NEW at all....and besides, the Vernal Equinox is still very much in Pisces, so the "new age," that's right, of Aquarius, is still 400-500 hundreds years away by sidereal accounts]. But seriously, the male/female principle should be addressed in Western culture, for the sake of us all. We've all featured so much, too much, on external achievement (Solar, masculine values) for so long ("what do you DO" in life = more important that how you are), to the negligence of our internal/spiritual selves, that we just accept the fact that we have a series of emotionally failed relationships and that everyone is in therapy. How or when did all this become NORMAL? Sorry, I sound like a self-help sucker now, if not fucking Rousseau, so it's time to paragraph!@

Remembering some things I wrote above, I do not want to give the wrong impression: I am not anti-Western or trying to denigrate Western astrology, or saying the reverse of the "West is the Best" kind of thing. I am certainly not reverse racist! No one ulture has a monopoly on Truth, of course, it's just hitory of how the Western astrological tradition was interrupted until this past century, during its revival, and has since then pretty much leeched off psychology (which was growing at the same ime) to justify its meanings, as it became more and more sign-centered. Going back to the writings of Evangeline Adams and Grant Lewi, you can tell that they were trying to incorporate psychological principles, in an attempt to legitimize astrology. Of course, i think this is misguided (and why I agree with mark s' post as to the importance of "types" - again, civilizational differences), since I don't think astrology in its true, spiritual orientation needs any legitimization from a 20th century er, science, if thats what we have to call psychology. But this is just basic differences, again, in the meaning of what astrology is, due to cultural differences. In the West, which has been very Solar, individualistic, and non-collectivist, the sign has risen to promience: "what sign are you?" simplyfying astrology down to one question. "I am this..I am that..." It is ego-based. It is Solar astrology, based on your Sun-sign. It is supposed to corespond to your psychological profile, "who you really are in this world." In the East, this world is considered an illusion, remember?? It doesn't mater "who you are," that is transient, and your soul's journey, your karmic burdens, are more improtant. the question is not "what sign am I?" but "where are my planets, in which houses, what karmic debtts do i have to pay off" ? it views this life as just another incarnation. This is hammered home an Indian chart has a number of concentric charts in it - the harmonic divisions of the original chart - each one representing another full horoscope, either for another area of life, or for another incarnation in itself!! There is your regular birth chart, that represents this lifetime, another ahart for your immediate last lifetime, another for your future lifetime. This is all so temporary, it doesn't matter "who you are," it's all going to change, the goal is to destroy your ego or smal sense of self (not enhance it through more self-identifications, as through Western astrology), so that you can ultimately achieve Nirvana - Intro to Hindu-Buddhist thought, 101. You aren't represented by your Sun sign, but by the ascendant. And the planets are called "Grahas" which literally means "Seizers" - they are cognizant entities (we are like bacteria to them - humans = millions born and die every few hours, for their lifespans are MUCH greater than ours, even astronomers know this! planets are old! :) seizing the karmas seeds that are yet to be born within us, and forcing us into actions that make these seeds blossom or initate these actions. (This is where the "free will" question comes up, by the way.) These harmonic charts, by the way, did exist in medieval western astrolgy - Kepler was supposedly obsessed with them, and connected them to his "Music of the Spheres," (the planets) but as modern scientists would write his bio (they "can't believe" he was an astrologer! while being an pioneer in astronomy, how could he!!), he was cuckoo (or enlightened, take your pick).

So yeah, I did not mean to be disparaging towards Western astrology at all, through whatever I said. All astrological traditions have the same origin, and they all had to do with the 7 rays (the basis for our life upon Earth, yay yay) which is connected to the 7 days of the week (the reason why there are 7 - Sun's day, Moon's day, Mars day, etc.), the 7 chakras, the 7 Churches of the Bible, etc. - it's just that outside of India, very few traditions have survived intact (China has more or less, but it was never as intricate, Babylonian-Chaldean, Egyptian, Greek, Medieval, Arabic, Mexican, Celtic/Pagan are all pretty much gone. There's information about them, but few people practicing them). Indian astrology, despite its origins (some say Greek, some say Babylonian, some some it was indigenous - there is a LOT of controversy about this in Indological/astrological circles) was always standardized, as opposed to the hodge-podge
of Western traditions, another reason why it has never felt the need to look outisde of itself for validation or legitimization. It is a fully intact system. It has a standardized text - the Brihat Parasara Hora Shastra - which has survived who knows how many millenniums, as it was supposed to have been written by the Sage Parasara, back in the Epoch, I ust don't think anyone knows which one. Oh of course people are trying to date it, some say 3rd century, or 3rd millennium BCE. Whatever he case, the "textbook" 's existence has pretty much standardized the Indian system with a set set-of-rules, and this is both good and bad (you can imagine why). The really amazing ones though, I've heard some off the wall stories, and if it wasn't from people (Western rationlists, or once upon a time they were, I guess now they're cultually bastardized wannabes, but I mean that in the coolest way possible) whom I trust a lot, I wouldn't believe them, but yeah: some of the "experts" can tell what planets are causing you which transit problems at which time just by looking at you, and something to do with your breathing cycles.

Oh, and let me be an apologist now: I know I had a really snotty tone during the first half of this post, but that was my sarcasm and anger coming out at some issues-at-large, not anyone in particular! Specifically, my feelings were colored by my anger towards: 1) the arrogant lineraist bias that modern historians have while maintaining their current view on history, 2) the hegemonic view of modern western "scientists" towards anything that cannot instantly be proved empirically and 3) the effects of imperialism on making Indian culture choose between Modernism and traditonal spiriual practices. I know I could have just said "Irreconcilable Cultural Differrences" and called it a day/epoch, but hey, WHO started that Obsessive-Compulsive thread? Of course, I am aware of how unprofessional, unedited, un-intellectual, un-ILXish much of this post is, but hey, wasn't being less intellectual one of the points in this mother of a fucking beast? So at least it is congruent. I am certainly am NOT attempting to blame anyone here for all the faults of Western civilization thought!! Conversely, I do not wish to give the wrong impression that I am somehow representing Indian culture as a whole, Indian astrologers, Hindus, those of Indian descent (many of whom may solely practice Western astrology and be reading this and hate me now), or even the other regular South Asians on this ILX board, 2 out of 3 whom have not ever even acknowledged my presence (but one has, hello Julio). Finally, I apologize if at all I come across as someone who think he knows too much about astrology in this post, since I most certainly do NOT, there is still so much to learn...I have only been studying Jyotish for about 7 years (western for 9), and there's some old Hindu adage that says it takes 7 LIFETIMES to become a "good" astrologer!! Ok, I am done being an apologist. Fuck off

Okay now it's time to either shoot myself of sleep. What the hell have i done, i cant even type in caps anymore, it requires "effort". I think I'll take an ILX break for a while. I have work in 6 hours? After such a pretentious/ pretentiously Nationalist with a capital N, desi post, signing my name as "Vic" just sounds so disingenuous, but i can't be arsed to log out, so...(not my full long version, mind you : )

vikram

that was over 1300 pages, wasn't it? Who could fucking beat that??

Science isn't purely empirical, and there are scientific theories which are accepted even though they haven't been observed to be true. In fact, it's generally held that a scientific theory can not be proven by empirical methods, although it can be disproven by them (it was Popper that came up with this, IIRC). In addition, any system of logic must have some facts which are true but completely unprovable.

The other day, on my walk to work, I was pondering about science, and contrasting science and gnosis. The whole point of modern science is that it *isn't* intuitive; it's a recipe book of practical methods for finding out secret information. There are places for intuition in science, but only very rarely, and only if it doesn't conflict with the scientific method itself. If you think intuition should take priority when trying to find something out, try a gnostic belief system such as alchemy or astrology. Science and gnosis can run in parallel, but the reason science is now more highly-regarded in the everyday world is that its results are, by definition, reliably repeatable and dependable.

Vic - Bravo for your long post!