This really sucks.
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Monday, 10 February 2003 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)
― mark p (Mark P), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)
― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 00:58 (twenty-two years ago)
And Nate, there's little doubt that Bret Hart/Mr. Perfect was the pinnacle of his career. I'd go seek out a tape of that.
-hopes that his favorites from Japan like Mutoh and Kawada don't meet similar fates- Alan
― Alan Conceicao, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 01:41 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kris (aqueduct), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 03:08 (twenty-two years ago)
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)
http://www.wrestlingmuseum.com/images/models/curthennig2.jpg
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― maura (maura), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)
Mr. Perfect always seemed cool though.
― naked as sin (naked as sin), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)
Nah. Because wrestlers break kayfabe so often (hell, its not wrestling anymore...its "sports entertainment") great heel characters don't create the same sort of reaction that they did in the days of the NWA and AWA (where disgruntled fans would wait outside for hours and try to assault the wrestlers). Some of this is also due to the fact that there are no great bad guys anymore. Just shades of grey. No more Martels, Hennigs, or Dibiases.
As for wrestling getting boring, the last vestiges of decent American wrestling died with WCW's cruiser division and ECW. I couldn't be paid at this point to watch Raw on TNN. Its that bad. NWA has its "X-Division", with a lot of excellent guys (Jerry Lynn, Low Ki, Amazing Red, etc) but in the end all the great matches here still pale next to the continued output of the best Japanese feds.
- Alan
― Alan Conceicao, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)
― kinski (kinski), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 22:50 (twenty-two years ago)
― naked as sin (naked as sin), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)
The violence is meaningless in wrestling when it comes to creating a heel. Sure, they have to do something absurd, but when you want to create a lasting heel character, they have to cerebral too. That's why Dibiase was over as a heel for about a decade and a half, or why in ECW Raven was a nastier heel than everyone else (even when the others would chuck chairs into the crowd). After all, wrestling is 60% story and character and 40% wrestling. Well, except maybe in Japan.
― Alan Conceicao, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 00:12 (twenty-two years ago)
What it comes down to is that heels cannot sell merchandise unless they appear "cool". At the peak of (picks a random great heel) Jake Roberts' first heel run, the WWF wouldn't have been selling a tenth of the Roberts merchandise as they would of the Hogan, despite the fact that their drawing power was similar.
And so it goes to nowadays. HHH is marketed as "A heel... but you've gotta love him anyway". It doesn't cut it. Nobody cares. Can you imagine HHH getting an Art Barr size heel pop? Of course not. Even guys who in their prime were heel gods (Ric Flair, Eddy Guerrero) are not hitting the area nowadays.
And kayfabe isn't really an option. Think back to the ECW peak. There were no marks in the audience then, but can you remember Brian Pillman's heel run there? The Loose Cannon gimmick... wouldn't happen nowadays, not in this world of Brian Gerwitz plotlines.
― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)
― Christopher (Christopher), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)
― Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)
― Alan Conceicao, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 17:11 (twenty-two years ago)
Well, that's due to both the emergence of the anti-hero (born in ECW, made big in US Wrestling by the NWO and Austin) and the fact that HHH is being constantly being pushed to due backstage politics. There are no clear cut heels, and even the heel turns themselves have been mismanaged. As its turned out, Vince McMahon has been the biggest heel in wrestling the last 5 years or so.
>>d kayfabe isn't really an option. Think back to the ECW peak. There were no marks in the audience then, but can you remember Brian Pillman's heel run there? The Loose Cannon gimmick... wouldn't happen nowadays, not in this world of Brian Gerwitz plotlines.<<
Well, Brian Pillman's "heel run", if you want to call it that; he had as much fan support as anyone else, really, was just a continuation of what happened when he left WCW following that interview that might have been a shoot and might not have been a shoot (people watching back in 1995 or 1996 will remember what I'm talking about). Because ECW was yet to pick up "marks", everyone knew what happened and why he was there. It was easy to continue off of what he had done (publicly) elsewhere.
I agree though that kayfabe isn't an option anymore. It probably wouldn't figure back into the equation unless the WWE died out (and oh what a shame that would be, hah) and no one took its place for a solid decade or so. This clearly makes heel development a little bit tougher, but then again worthwhile angles and characters take some semblance of effort/talent to create in the first place.
― Alan Conceicao, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)
― stevem (blueski), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)
― Cozen (Cozen), Thursday, 13 February 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)