Americans without Health Insurance: a question

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Can any of our US contingent help me out with a work-related question? As I understand it there are more 41 million Americans without Health Insurance, often low-paid workers who are not covered by Medicaid. So what happens when they fall ill?

I've read that Federal Law states those without insurance or money must still receive healthcare but what happens? Do hospitals turn patients away? Are patients left with enormous bills to pay? What happens when a patient is seriously ill, the health-care required is extremely expensive, and the chances of them ever being in a position to pay back the medical costs are slim to nonexistent?

stevo (stevo), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

well, my understanding, gleaned from fear about my current situation and the chick on the real world chicago who had no insurance and a kidney problem, is that they're pretty much fucked.

i'd love to hear any evidence to the contrary.

maura (maura), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

minna OTM. It's just like any other enormous debt, their family has to shoulder the burden. A destitute person will usually have access to Medicare, but you have to be pretty damn destitute.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:49 (twenty-two years ago)

According to the law, if the hospital is receiving any federal funding the emergency room cannot turn away patients for inability to pay. Hospitals that are found to have done this get charged and penalized and whatnot.

Hospitals do employ social workers and other staff to help indigent patients seek out means to help pay the bills, are required to provide reduced-cost services under certain circumstances, and historically have provided a certain amount of charity care. Still, there are plenty of cases in which uninsured patients were left with cripplingly large medical bills. I don't have specific figures, but apparently uncovered medical expenses is the primary reason leading Americans for file for bankruptcy.

j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Do hospitals employ debt collertors who come round and break your legs if you don't pay?

Ed (dali), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Troubled as it is, I have never felt so grateful for the NHS...

Matt DC (Matt DC), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Go to the county or teaching hospital of your choice and collapse. US government *does* have an unpaid medical bills fund (Bell-Howell?), where my mum told a collections agency* to go (on the way to Hell) when some idiot tried to charge me for participating in some post-cancer group study.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Hospitals are supposed to treat you if it's an emergency, but they have ways of getting around that, or making you wait. Then there is public health. My sister was a temp worker for a while, and she had an emergency and had to go to Cook County Hospital (the hospital on which the show "ER" is based). "ER" makes Cook County look much better than it is - it is the most depressing place I've ever set foot in. We waited 7-8 hours for treatment, while my sister was in godawful pain, and she wasn't the only one. And they don't even give people pain medication or anything while they're waiting. I know that they're just the staff and it's beyond their control, but I think they become callous from the experience - I don't know how anyone can work there and listen to people moaning in pain all day and not be moved by it, just sitting around filling out forms and snapping their gum. Maybe if more people could see what it was like, they'd be more sympathetic to universal health care.

Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

That is pretty damn close to what universal health care is like in the UK!

RickyT (RickyT), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

It varies from location to location, hospital to hospital, in ways that a suddenly-ill person is pretty unlikely to be up-to-speed on: there are regions and hospital systems with patient-friendly regulations (e.g. caps on the amount uninsured patients can be billed for various types of emergency service; one of these saved me hundreds of dollars on a five-minute ear depressurization in a San Francisco hospital), and there are others where they will indeed leave you with thousands in debt and destroyed credit.

nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Boy, that's terrible, then. The place was a shithole...just think if a tiny portion of our defense budget were diverted to better public hospitals...

Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

The waiting-room scene at the ER that Kerry describes could happen just as easily to someone with massive amounts of insurance. The difference is that in the UK you don't have to think about where the money's coming from, ever. It's just there. Here, for instance, if you lose your job you can get what's called "COBRA" (Continuance of Benefits Reduction Act or something) for up to two years, which allows you to keep your current coverage for the "bargain" of about $200 per month out-of-pocket. That is considered very progressive legislation here!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

It's *never* happened to me. And I've never seen a wealthy person creak into an emergency room in a wooden wheelchair.

Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

"ER" makes Cook County look much better than it is

And if the show was true to life, half of the residents would be of South Asian origin!

Anyways, one other problem (among many) with no health coverage is that there's no preventative care, no tests, etc. So when it comes time to show up at a hospital it's usually in a crisis. So even if you are granted emergency care, your long-term health (and life expectancy) is going to suffer.

Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 17:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks everyone, a big help.

stevo (stevo), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

I all of a sudden love my medicare all that much more.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:24 (twenty-two years ago)

i have $5k of - still - unpaid med bills from last march when my acid reflux eroded the lining of my esophagus. i was in screeching, screaming, don't-eat-for-three-weeks, no sleep agony; i had no choice but to go to the hospital, not once (where all they basically did was pump me full of 2 gallons of water to reduce dehydration) but twice (where all they did was take x-rays they never showed to me and prescribed super-expensive antacids.) my insurance ended a month earlier when i quit my job. i have no idea how i can pay them. so yes, you're shit out of luck.

jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Hang on, I thought that Medicare was for the 65+'s and Medicaid was for those on low incomes and limited resources?

stevo (stevo), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:32 (twenty-two years ago)

It's my understanding that hospitals eat a lot of the expenses (after they try to collect) of people who can't pay, which is why in cities like Detroit most of the inner-city hospitals have closed. It's really screwed up.

Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm just now finishing paying off a bill from three years ago. shit out of luck doesn't begin to describe it.


and you're right re: medicare, medicaid although they're almost the same program.

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:33 (twenty-two years ago)

(It's also why insurance rates have gone up and it's more difficult to get your insurance to pay for a given procedure; because hospitals often jack up their prices to insurance companies to make up for all the uncompensated procedures they perform on people who aren't insured.)

Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

(oh, i forgot to factor in the $200 out of pocket visit to the "free" clinic inbetween the hospital visits to hopefully avoid that second trip.)

jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I was reffering to what ever you wanna call OHIP.

hurrah for functionaing nationwide health care.

Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Medicaid is a v. good program if you qualify for it (which I do at the moment, being low-income and w/o steady work). No copay, free prescriptions, and pretty much every type of healthcare (psychiatric, dental, visits to emergency room) is covered.

po white trash, Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

What about psychiatric dental visits to the emergency room?

Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

amateurist you forgot to close your < corn> tag a few threads ago

jess (dubplatestyle), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.angelfire.com/il/Fetterolfs/images/corn.jpg

Amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:02 (twenty-two years ago)

The last time I went to the hospital, they had to treat me as though I were uninsured, because my insurance co. (crap through the school) wouldn't disclose coverage information. So -- yeah, they would have to treat me if I showed up in the ER, but I was scheduled for surgery and suddenly had three hours to come up with the $9,000 down payment they wanted. I'd already been to the ER two days earlier, and they were the ones who'd scheduled the surgery for me with a non-ER surgeon -- but if I hadn't been able to call my mother and get her to put the money down, I would've had to wait for another attack of some kind, and I was in pretty poor shape.

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:16 (twenty-two years ago)

there is nothing about this country that is more fucked up than our healthcare system

James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:19 (twenty-two years ago)

(It's also why insurance rates have gone up and it's more difficult to get your insurance to pay for a given procedure; because hospitals often jack up their prices to insurance companies to make up for all the uncompensated procedures they perform on people who aren't insured.)

Has this happened relatively recently, in particular? Cause like I said: $60,000 for gallbladder surgery (cutting me open, not the thing where they just poke you) and five days in the hospital with minor physical therapy ... vs. $18,000 in 1991 when my ex had a daughter born a month premature, and the baby had to stay in the hospital for four weeks of observation. I would've bet anything that the latter would've been more expensive. Different states, granted.

Tep (ktepi), Tuesday, 11 February 2003 21:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Stevo - as one of those millions of uninsured, I can tell you what happened to me - I became seriously ill last spring. I was able to cover most of my visits to my physician, but not the laboratory tests and medications, as well as the procedures needed for treatment.

I was fortunate in that my physician understands my predicament and provides most of my prescription medications as free samples, and my pharmisist is able to give me discount rates because of income levels. I have worked with the hospitals, labs, and other physicans who have provided treatment in order to get some of the fees reduced (five spinal taps in six months is aburdely expensive. Ditto for bone marrow tests). Some have been willing to partially write-off the fees, others have agreed to long-term payment options. I explained it to them this way, more or less: "Look, the only thing that I own, in my name, that is worth anything is my car. I can file for bankruptcy and then you get nothing. Or you can work with me and I'll pay you what I can when I can." Seemed to help a bit.

Thankfully, I have some well-to-do relatives who were able to lend me a total of $19K (U.S.) to cover those portions of the bills that were not written off and that I was being billed for/turned over to creditors, etc. But it sucks. Right now I owe, total (medical bills and loan repayments) about $32K. I figure I'll be paying that off for several years.

I cannot purchase private insurance due to a health condition - I have not been refused coverage, but have been offered coverage at monthly rates that were a full half of my monthly income at the time, with no coverage for the health conition or related problems. I couldn't afford it at the time. Now I am thinking it was stupid of me not to fork over all of that cash. I'd still be ahead right now, if I had.

I'm Passing Open Windows (Ms Laura), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 00:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Has this happened relatively recently, in particular? Cause like I said: $60,000 for gallbladder surgery (cutting me open, not the thing where they just poke you) and five days in the hospital with minor physical therapy ... vs. $18,000 in 1991 when my ex had a daughter born a month premature

Different times, different states, different hospitals, different insurance plans (assuming that an insurance plan was involved in either case), and a million other different factors. Another factor is the rise of preferred provider (PPO) plans with prenegotiated rates. The insurers will ask the providers who want to be part of this network things like "What is your standard charge for XYZ procedure (we will pay you 50% of that charge)?" The doctor, who previously would have billed $1,000 to cover the costs of that procedure puts down $2,000, which becomes that doctor's established rate. And since there are rules that limit doctors' ability to charge uninsured and insured patients different rates, the doctor generally must quote uninsured patients the $2,000 price as the standard charge.

Between penny-pinching insurers and patients who are too broke to pay out of pocket for care, U.S. health care finance is fucked, and it's taking health care delivery with it. You hear about it most in reference to inner cities, but it's also a growing problem in rural areas.

I happen to have a health insurance plan -- which I pay for myself, since my current employer doesn't offer a health plan -- and I'm very lucky 1) to be able to afford this plan, and 2) to have been accepted by this plan. However, it's part of the Maryland/DC BlueCross BlueShield network (ostensibly not for profit), whose trustees have decided that the DC population would be better served by their selling out to a for-profit insurer. Health care finance in the U.S. is a matter of haves versus have-nots, and it's simply getting worse by the month.

j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 01:22 (twenty-two years ago)

My friend was diagnosed with cancer while uninsured, and his parents are now more than a million dollars in debt.

It's just insane here and sometimes I literally cry thinking about it, because soon I won't qualify for insurance anymore, and with all my health problems it could end up being massively disastrous.

Melissa W (Melissa W), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 03:24 (twenty-two years ago)

I've been uninsured for a about a year. Before that I was on a basic plan that I never even used. Luckily, I've never been one to get sick.

In, short. No insurance = you're fucked if something happens.

People who cannot get insured must take good care of themselves.

I saw a World Health Organization report that had Cuba ABOVE the U.S. in national health care rankings. Spain was at the top I think.

Polo Pony, Wednesday, 12 February 2003 04:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, this thread is depressing. Laura, Melissa, Jess, anyone else - sorry to hear about things.

JS Williams (js williams), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 06:25 (twenty-two years ago)

The Cuban health system is above quite a number of others, its one of the things they take pride in doing well.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 08:01 (twenty-two years ago)

do they still treat aids patients horribly?

James Blount (James Blount), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 08:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Very probably as AIDs is still linked with homosexuality in cuba and that is still very much taboo in cuba. Their mental-healthcare is very good for a communist country though, for any country.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 08:19 (twenty-two years ago)

but cuba is not a communist country ed

how much does health insurance cost in the usa?

gareth (gareth), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 10:36 (twenty-two years ago)

country that styles itself as communist. (I do dig my own grave sometimes)

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Well isn't that reason enough to move to the UK Mel, or does it not work like that?

Graham (graham), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 13:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Thankfully I currently receive health insurance through my employer which means I pay 100 dollars a month. (this does not include eye care- I pay for that myself). Medicare/Medicaid taxes are also deducted from my paycheck, roughly another 100 dollars a month.

I'd rather pay the 200 dollars a month towards universal coverage rather than have all these different plans. It'll never happen.

lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Wednesday, 12 February 2003 14:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Gareth: my cobra right now costs over $300/month, I feel like it's such a waste... For people who have plans through their work -- the employer absorbs most of the costs. But certain things, the things that you need, will not be included in your plan, bc they are not deemed necessary, so you will pay out of pocket. Presciption medicines are also very expensive here, as you may have heard. North of the border is prescription medicine heaven apparently. Also, once you are sick, and need to change plans, bc you change jobs or something, you'll have to pay a lot more, if you are even accepted, cause no one wants to insure someone who actually needs care. Hillary tried to take care of all this, er...

Japan has the BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM EVER. We might be able to bring them down to our level with time.

Mary (Mary), Sunday, 16 February 2003 04:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Ed: Can you tell me about the mental health care system in Cuba?

Mary (Mary), Monday, 17 February 2003 04:29 (twenty-two years ago)


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