Terror Threat = Government Lies?

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My feeling is that all of the numerous announced terror threat warnings during the last elections were lies intended to scare people and help republican candidates. After all, nothing did happen. I think George W., Tom Ridge, et al are using the same tactic now to scare people and increase support for an attack on Iraq. Sure there is always some level of threat but the timing of these announcements bugs me. Plus they likely do little good in terms of preventing attack. They just serve to raise people's stress level. Maybe they are not stricly speaking lies (since there is always some level of threat) but I am very skeptical about the purposes of these
"Code Orange" etc. announcements.

g (graysonlane), Thursday, 13 February 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

tony blair to thread!

gareth (gareth), Thursday, 13 February 2003 15:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Ridge was asked earlier if this wasn't all a bit of a ploy, and his answer was to look shifty-eyed and say, "Well, I regret people feel that way." I'm sure he does.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:00 (twenty-two years ago)

i think there are probably often threats and they are real, but the scale is something we can't know.

the one thats just happened in london, where there were tanks out at the airport and a LOT of frenzied activity in the news about an imminent attack ... surely designed to instill fear into the public and make people more in favour of action. but, if this is the case, it is a dangerous action. if no terror attack materialises blairs action will not look believable (yes, theyll say they thwarted it, but will *we* believe them? i would say no). so i think, if this was for political reasons (as most people seem to believe now), hes going to have to get the mileage out of it while he can, which, to me, suggests war in the next week, otherwise hes lost his momentum.

however, on the other hand, blairs capacity for actually believing in himself, and also for hamfistnedness means it could just be another muddle

gareth (gareth), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

i think "lies" requires the idea that the govt can interpret information perfectly accurately right from the gathering to the decision-making: i doubt this is even remotely possible

the actually evidence/information is probably much the same as it's always been, pre- and post 9/11, ie low-level noise with worrying but inconclusive elements in it, and then a chain of command at each level drawing conclusions second-guessing their own professional situation if they're wrong about it, way before it reaches anyone able to make big public decisions/announcements

the decision to interpret it scarily needn't be high-level either: the security services can't afford to be seen to let anything else through

even the decision to broadcast it — at least in the uk — relates more to the fact that visible security activity (ie at heathrow) will start rumours anyway, so you might as well pre-empt and (somewhat) control them with official announcements

i imagine greatly increased clandestine activity in the various national security worlds (ie russia, france, uk, us) is also busily mutually setting off alarms

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

i imagine greatly increased clandestine activity in the various national security worlds (ie russia, france, uk, us) is also busily mutually setting off alarms

Which means of course that we will see renewed interest in Rocky and Bullwinkle.

Amateurist (amateurist), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

i think it will increase anti-war sentiment in the UK

the conservative spokesman on TV last night was visibly distressed at being torn between being MORE PRO WAR THAN BLAIR and wanting to tear into the hopelessness of the govt's dealing with this whole thing and exploit its increasing unpopularity

two nights ago i saw portillo making the deeply unconvincing claim that the only real reason the public was against the war was that blair had competely lost control of his backbenchers

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd be interested in knowing whether somebody living in Montana, Idaho, Nebraska or wherever in the US thinks they really need to stock up on 3 days of supplies as per George W's recommendations yesterday. As I tend to agree with g about the motivations there.

But I think mark's talking a lot of sense about the 'low-level noise' as well. Sure, there's a massive element of doubt and uncertainty there. I guess some of the security recommendations/actions are more transparently fake than others though.

James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the terror warnings are just over-compensation for getting taken completely by surprise on 9/11. Its gives the impression that we are "prepared" and doing something to prevent more attacks.

Or it could just be a cynical political tool.

fletrejet, Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

secret information is almost by definition bad information, bcz you can't test it out via public discussion, in the media, in the courts, in debates in learned journals, on the net => "transparency" is just absent, at every level, which of course fuels speculation, rumours, more background noise

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

2 army Lynxes just came storming over here on their way to Heathrow.

chris (chris), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

With the terrible exception of Bali, Al Qaeda hasn't done shit since 9/11, despite relentlessly threatening overwhelming destruction. Does anybody think this is because they're not really bothering? Give law enforcement, intelligence agencies, and Operation Enduring Freedom a little credit for crying out loud.

Stuart, Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:47 (twenty-two years ago)

fair enough stuart, but that makes all these sudden big unspecific warnings right now less plausible not more

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:54 (twenty-two years ago)

Why?

Stuart, Thursday, 13 February 2003 16:56 (twenty-two years ago)

i. either information is good or it isn't
ii. either al qaeda has been cut down to size or it hasn't
iii. either law enforcement, intelligence agencies, and Operation Enduring Freedom have done a good job or they haven't

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Its gives the impression that we are "prepared" and doing something to prevent more attacks.

And it covers the govt's ass.
"See, we told you shit might happen"

oops (Oops), Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Also no-one seems to draw attraction to obvious flaw in reasoning:

1 - Official view - terrorists are linked to Saddam, hence increased terror = increased reason for attacking Saddam

2 S is desperate not to be attacked and will do nothing to provoke/provide excuse for war he will certainly lose

3 Conclusion, either terrorist risk is lower or Saddam has no influence over level of threat

ArfArf, Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:06 (twenty-two years ago)

also, not for nothing, but the US government still has not disbursed money to the states to purchase antiterrorism equipment -- supplies that go beyond your 3 day ration of bottled water, powerbars, and duct tape. if this threat is so credible, why aren't funds for fire departments to purchase bioterror detectives and protective suits being immediately disbursed?

on the bright side, shares of 3m are up.

maura (maura), Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:12 (twenty-two years ago)

great point Arf Arf. And Mark S. Like I said originally, there is always some threat, it is the type and timing of the warnings that smacks of politics. On another topic, I am really more scared of N. Korea than Iraq or Al Qaeda. they are pissed that dumb ass bush included them in his idiotic "axis of evil" - idiotic because relations with NK had been improving over the last 4 years or so. But maybe they are just being cranky and crafty...

g (graysonlane), Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

You mean the last 4 years during which they've been going forward with their nuclear program in violation of their agreements?

Stuart, Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:45 (twenty-two years ago)

During which time we've been feeding their people and giving them millions of tons of fuel oil. And now that they're found out, they threaten the world with nuclear ballistic missiles if we don't keep them propped up. And it's Bush's fault because he called them on it, 7 years in?

Stuart, Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:52 (twenty-two years ago)

And as far as AQ goes, i'm saying give credit for what's been done so far. AQ's been thwarted and disrupted but they're not gone, and we're not perfect, and it doesn't take a lot for them to inflict tremendous damage. so if there's a spike in rumblings that something's coming, even if there's nothing specific, do you speak up or keep quiet and hope it's a false alarm? it's not sparking riots or mass panic, that i've seen. CNN's *acting* like it's the end of the world but that's what they do.

Stuart, Thursday, 13 February 2003 17:59 (twenty-two years ago)

"it's not sparking riots or mass panic"

well, no: after all, us citizenry don't especially respect the competence of the us govt or its various bureaucracies any more than anyone else does (so the y2k types will buy up all the cans of wieners and everyone else will gloomily wait and see)

mark s (mark s), Thursday, 13 February 2003 18:06 (twenty-two years ago)

stuart gonzo = ari fleischer? if not, maybe he should apply to the white house (or the republican national committee, same thing these days) because he's got the wingnut-spin schtick down cold.

Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 13 February 2003 18:20 (twenty-two years ago)

And when public support wanes to a miniscule 51%, it supposedly means BushCo should stop and think, and shouldn't go to war without a mandate, but when support grows to 63%, it's evidence that the public are gullible sheep, easily swayed by manipulative warnings. Uh huh.

Stuart, Thursday, 13 February 2003 18:21 (twenty-two years ago)

where's osama?

Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 13 February 2003 18:24 (twenty-two years ago)

oh yeah, and when all else fails, blame Clinton!

lemme preempt you before you pull that wingnut chestnut outta yer ass.

Tad (llamasfur), Thursday, 13 February 2003 18:25 (twenty-two years ago)

stuart, clearly relations with N. Korea have been improving since the 90s. Fine, they have been covertly working on a weapons program, like every other country on earth probably. We have violated our share of weapons treaties too.

g (graysonlane), Thursday, 13 February 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Now I'm oiled. Keep me from the rats.

Stuart, Thursday, 13 February 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'd be interested in knowing whether somebody living in Montana, Idaho, Nebraska or wherever in the US thinks they really need to stock up on 3 days of supplies as per George W's recommendations yesterday."

MSNBC just aired a segment about folks in a small town community in ALABAMA (!?!?!?!) stocking up on duct tape and supplies, etc. I mean,....really! Do you HONESTLY believe that Sweet Home Alabama is going to be the NEXT place terrorism would strike? I think it's pretty preposterous m'self, but I'm still taking this code Orange stuff pretty seriously, living here in NYC. I'm not buying duct tape (as it wouldn't do a lick of good....let's say I duct taped my windows...what about all the other windows and doors in my apartment building? What a crock!) I am avoiding mass transit and big name soft targets (although I work in Rockefeller Center, itself conceivably a target). I've lost faith in our current adminstration's ability to effectively warn or protect us (the code Orange warnings are just a way of covering their ass in case something does happen....telling us to go buy duct tape seems tantamount to saying "let them eat cake!"). I don't know who to believe anymore, but Tom Ridge doesn't exude a lot of confidence as far as I'm concerned.

Alex in NYC (vassifer), Thursday, 13 February 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Today intelligence officials are claiming that Saddam has sent Iraqi operatives into the US. I'm starting to get a feeling that this is all propaganda. Ok, we are days away from attacking Iraq and trying to build up a coalition and prove that IRaq is dangerous and bingo, Iraqi Ops guys in the US.

Chris V. (Chris V), Thursday, 13 February 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

might as well start rounding up iraqis now then...

g (graysonlane), Thursday, 13 February 2003 19:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I'll go ask the Blatantly Lying To American Citizens department tomorrow if they had anything to do with that. Because EVERYBODY who works for the government is obviously a hardline Republican with no respect for his or her countrymen. That's why they endure the shitty paychecks, because it gives them a chance to fuck with their neighbors.

Alex: Regardless of those particular folks thought process, Alabama is the location of a number of excellent military targets. Plus if you were a terrorist looking for an easy place to set off a bomb that would scare the shit out of people would you

A. Kill a bunch of NYCers again, confirming that you are only interested in coastal megacities?
B. Gas a number of smaller towns throughout the countryside, scaring the living bejeezus out of the ENTIRE NATION?

But of course that's all speculation and ludicrous at that, everybody knows these ragheads are just idiots with no inclination towards creativity in the service of evil. Ha! Iraqi suicide bombers in the US! Never happen!

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I sympathize with what you're saying, Millar, but here's something else to consider:

GOVERNMENT IN GENERAL: "There's all this, there's all that, we know this, we know that, and here's what we're telling you."

PUBLIC: "Great. So what exactly are you doing about it?"

G-I-G: "Er, can't tell you, sorry."

...which is of course on the one hand exactly what you want to say if you're keeping everything covered/secret/still investigating, to not show your hand too early and so forth. But on the other hand giving out all the information had already makes it seem like there's a huge overwhelming flood of a problem or problems about to hit and there's nothing much to be done about it except worry. Is that constructive or not?

Maybe Ridge et al have absolutely no axe to grind with these warnings. Wonderful for them if that's the case, but if they aren't stopping to wonder why there's doubt and cynicism on the one hand and near panic on the other, then that's pretty damned naive, I'd think.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 13 February 2003 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

so ....

Feb. 13 — A key piece of the information leading to recent terror alerts was fabricated, according to two senior law enforcement officials in Washington and New York.

 The officials said that a claim made by a captured al Qaeda member that Washington, New York or Florida would be hit by a "dirty bomb" sometime this week had proven to be a product of his imagination.

The informant described a detailed plan that an al Qaeda cell operating in either Virginia or Detroit had developed a way to slip past airport scanners with dirty bombs encased in shoes, suitcases, or laptops, sources told ABCNEWS. The informant reportedly cited specific targets of government buildings and Christian or clerical centers.

"This piece of that puzzle turns out to be fabricated and therefore the reason for a lot of the alarm, particularly in Washington this week, has been dissipated after they found out that this information was not true," said Vince Cannistraro, former CIA counter-terrorism chief and ABCNEWS consultant.

It was only after the threat level was elevated to orange — meaning high — last week, that the informant was subjected to a polygraph test by the FBI, officials told ABCNEWS.

"This person did not pass," said Cannistraro.

According to officials, the FBI and the CIA are pointing fingers at each other. An FBI spokesperson told ABCNEWS today he was "not familiar with the scenario," but did not think it was accurate.

Despite the fabricated report, there are no plans to change the threat level. Officials said other intelligence has been validated and that the high level of precautions is fully warranted.

maura (maura), Friday, 14 February 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

four years pass...

Terror watch list approaches 800,000; how many Noise Dudes must be on it?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-23-Watchlist_N.htm

"It undermines the authority of the list," says Lisa Graves of the Center for National Security Studies. "There's just no rational, reasonable estimate that there's anywhere close to that many suspected terrorists."

Dr Morbius, Thursday, 25 October 2007 20:02 (eighteen years ago)


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