Divorce financial advice needed

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I mentioned that I have just had an unpleasant letter, from my ex-wife's solicitors. I'm not sure what to do. I don't know whether anyone here will have any idea, but it might help me to set this out anyway. And I post here a lot, and this might well colour my posts. And I hope I have some friends here who might be interested: those not my friends will best skip this thread, I think, as it is boring and indulgent stuff.

Okay, history. Got together with Jackie in 1978, married in '81. We split in August 2001, for various reasons, in large part due to my severe clinical depression. In the past, I had supported Jackie through college, and she had done the same for me later. We had both been earning virtually identical salaries - except in our last months together, when Jackie was sacked from her job for minor financial fiddling (expenses in wrong category, rather than anything to benefit herself). She was offered another comparable job, but when we split she chose to move away from the area, to live very near another man - she rented what she says is a nice house by a river, in Surrey. She had no job at the time, but started another one a while later. We had bought this house I'm in now in 2000, on our joint salaries. I couldn't have got a mortgage so big on my own.

Jackie chose to move out. She wanted the car, and that made practical sense, so I said yes. There were certain things of incalculable personal value. She wanted them so much she said she'd give up everything else for them, and I let her have them. There were other things she wanted too, and she made the point that she wasn't taking that much, so I let her have all of that as well. Soon after we separated, she said she was struggling for money. I took out a loan so as to give her £5k immediately, knowing that there was more to split. This left me with very tight finances indeed.

She used that money to hire lawyers. She had been uninterested in negotiating, and then said I was unwilling to negotiate (I have emails proving my version of this). I had offered a formula based on however much we could raise selling the house, plus other factors like legal and conveyancing costs, paying off mortgages and joint loans, pensions and so forth. Her side came back with a counter offer which I accepted. Her solicitors drew up the agreement, which I signed. By this point, we had a buyer for the house at the agreed price, and I had a place to buy, and had spent money on solicitors, searches, survey and the like.

Just before the deal went through last Autumn, I was told that the court had rejected the settlement as unfair to Jackie, in the circumstances. I was told (the first I'd heard this) that she had had to give up work because of illness. I've asked repeatedly, but no one will tell me what the problem is. I proposed that we have the sale go through, give Jackie the agreed amount (that she had proposed), and once I was in a less costly place, with debts paid off, we could sort out any adjustment necessary. She responded that she would only approve the sale if I could give her thousands more as her share immediately. That would make my purchase impossible, so that wasn't on.

Since then, she has been applying for legal aid and has changed lawyers, so has had to wait for them to get the papers. I have had to continue in a place I can barely afford, and my finances are deteriorating. Today I received a letter that includes the following: "in light of time taken to resolve matters so far, we are instructed to issue a formal application for anciliary relief. You will therefore receive a timetable directly from the court shortly."

Jackie declined to discuss the settlement repeatedly for five months, until 1/02. She then decided to use lawyers. We negotiated, and I put the house on the market last Easter. It took a while to sort everything through, and for me to find somewhere to go (one place fell through after my offer had been accepted), but I was ready to move months ago, when Jackie's side brought things to a halt and refused to let the sale go through. This has been the situation for over three months. I did give her £5k, before any agreement was reached.

Does this mean that I am expected to pay maintenance? I have a growing overdraft and credit card debts, and less coming in than going out. This would not be the case if I were in a cheaper place after paying off the debts - I wasn't worried last year, because I was always expecting to move very soon.

I've avoided hiring solicitors so far. I was told ages ago that it would cost me £2-3k (it might be more now things have become more complicated), and I don't have it. However, I guess they might wait to take it out of house sale proceeds, and maybe I can't afford not to take on lawyers now.

Also, how does an illness apparently begun over a year after we separated mean that she is entitled to a bigger share of the joint goods? If I get ill too, does she have to give some of that back? If she restarts work after the settlement, do I get some back? Where is the sense in any of that? In fact, due to depression, I've missed loads of time off work, to the point of final warnings and clear maximums, so that had I not returned to work last Monday after my latest illness, I would have been sacked.

Ah, I don't know. Should I take on solicitors? How do I find good, not too expensive lawyers? (I know there's probably a difference, but I don't know what it is.)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 15 February 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

It sounds like you need legal advice asap.

I would suggest contacting your nearest Citizen's Advice bureau on Monday - they should be able to help you calculate whether or not you would be entitled to Legal Aid, and if so - they can refer you to either a community law centre or provide a list of lawyers in your area that accept legal aid cases and also specialise in that area of law.

Even if you don't qualify for legal aid, in certain circumstances community law centres will take on the case when the person's income is not much above the limits. It is definitely worth checking out. And sometimes, but it really depends on bureau to bureau, there may be a rotating or in-house lawyer at the CAB who could help you out.

CAB can also advise you on your employment situation, and what your rights are re: illness/depression and needing time off. It might be good to have a plan of action in case you end up with an unfair or wrongful dismissal situation and need to apply to an employment tribunal. Are you following your company's procedure for notifying them for time off sick etc.? Have you gotten doctor's notes and are you keeping a written record of everything that has happened there?

And they can also advise on debt management, such as using a service called Payplan. (www.payplan.com) - this may or may not be right for you, depending on your monthly outgoings, but it is a free service and won't charge any fees like the ones you see advertised on the telly. There are other methods too which the CAB can advise on.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk - you can search for your nearest bureau there.

Good luck and I hope this is of some use...

elisabeth k, Saturday, 15 February 2003 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know much about your legal system [maybe Colin knows better] but if she is dealing with you through lawyers, it sounds like you need to get a reasonably good lawyer as soon as possible. Keep all your documentation (cancelled checks, bank statements, emails, etc.) showing your side of the story and show your lawyer. 2,000 -3,000 pounds might sound like a lot of money, but if marital law is anything over there like it is is over here and you have earning ability for a meaningful time to come, a sharp divorce lawyer will clean your proverbial clock. So if you can work out a retainer arrangement for a decent lawyer using the sale proceeds it may be a good investment.

[usual disclaimer about taking important life advice from interweb mentalists]

Sorry to be so harsh and good luck.

felicity (felicity), Saturday, 15 February 2003 19:18 (twenty-two years ago)

On a practical note, one way to find a lawyer is to talk to friends and family until you find some lawyers and ask them to send firm-wide email asking for a referral to a marital lawyer in London. I get at least three of these a week, things like "Drunk driving lawyer in Phoenix?" "Secruties fraud defense lawyer in Seattle?" "Med mal lawyer in new Jersey?" It's totally normal, encouraged, even. Everybody loves a referral.

felicity (felicity), Saturday, 15 February 2003 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin - you HAVE to get good legal advice, whatever it costs, or you could be cleaned out. If you get representation you'll be able to get your side heard - I'd say you have a very good chance of coming out of this with a fair settlement, but you'll get hammered if you don't get advice. Whilst everyone on ILX would no doubt like to help - any advice from non-legally trained people is pretty useless. You ight have to be prepared to play dirty as that's what it sounds like your ex is doing. Don't despair and keep positive, they're probably bullshitting to some exent, so it's time to turn the tables.

If you get a lawyer make sure that you have all paperwork in order first so that you're using their time most efficiently. All the best.

Dr. C (Dr. C), Saturday, 15 February 2003 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

No legal advice from me (apart from: get a lawyer) but I'm sorry this is so awful for you. I hope things work out okay and that you get through these negotiations without too much duress.

It sounds as though you have tried to be scrupulously fair. You seem like a very decent person.

estela, Saturday, 15 February 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

get expert advice asap and hope everything goes well.

''You seem like a very decent person.''

indeed he is!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 15 February 2003 20:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I have tried to behave decently - even when I've been tempted to take a different attitude, I kind of need to be able to think of myself as a morally good person, so I couldn't do it. Also, although the last months were bad and Jackie behaved badly in some ways, we had 22 fantastic years, and I'll always treasure those times. I hope she'll be happy, I just don't see why that has to entail making me miserable.

I'm sure you're all correct. I think I have no choice - I can't see how I could pay maintenance, if such was assessed against me, even if I thought it was right. I just don't have the money, with the expenses of this house. Stupid thing is, it's clearly in both our interests to get on with selling this place, but she won't agree to that.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 15 February 2003 20:44 (twenty-two years ago)

If you think a couple thousand now is a lot of money, think about paying a similar sum every month until your retirement.

Again, with the caveat abot not knowing your legal system, but I would think many decent lawyers would at least give you a free consultation, if only to talk about fee arrangements. Better sooner than later, since the courts are involved. I would help you if I were British-trained but I'm not. Actually, I'll send an email at my firm -- who knows, someone might know someone through a friend. Please don't wind up like lots of people who get bitter towards lawyers because they didn't see one when they had to and then the lawyer they finally saw couldn't fix the problem because it was too late.

felicity (felicity), Saturday, 15 February 2003 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I have no bitterness towards lawyers, at all. I did consult one early on, and it wasn't clear what help he would be, and I thought I'd do without for a while - I thought then that we were heading for a reasonable agreement, and we were, at the time. That's where I got the estimate from. It seemed like a waste of money at the time, but I think I have no real option now.

I will ask around, though I'm not sure I know anyone likely to know. Maybe Citizen's Advice can at least steer me to a decent firm. I don't think I'd qualify for legal aid; I'm earning reasonable money - it's my level of expense that's the trouble. Some of you will have some idea what it costs if I say that it's a big three bedroomed house with a garden in London, north of the river, a few hundred yards from the tube. I can't afford it.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 15 February 2003 21:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I know you're not bitter Martin. I sent the email. We'll see what happens.

felicity (felicity), Saturday, 15 February 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin, it can't hurt to visit the citizen's advice and see what advice you can get for free (and confidentially) first. And as I said, they might have an in-house or visiting solicitor who could give you some advice as well.

At the very least they should be able to help you narrow down the search for a suitable solicitor in your area.

That way if you get any referrals, you've got two sources of possible lawyers to consult.

elisabeth k, Sunday, 16 February 2003 09:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Get a lawyer. Sounds terrible. She may not be trying to make your life miserable intentionally, but may be getting advice from someone (i.e. a lawyer) that she trusts as an expert. Her advisor's job is to maximize her proceeds, not to be fair to you. You need able advice too. And with lawyers, as with German automobiles, Italian shoes, etc., you get what you pay for. Saving money now may cost you later. Get referrals, interview the lawyers, get someone you trust with good creds. GOOD LUCK!

Skottie, Sunday, 16 February 2003 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin: e-mail me for the name of a terrific London-based divorce solicitor. His hourly rate is not cheap, but he works fast, efficiently, and well -- penny wise and pound foolish is not the way to go here.

It's never wise to think of hiring a solicitor in a domestic law issue as taking the moral high ground -- if there's a solicitor on the other side, sometimes hiring your own is about the only way to avoid turning nasty or getting torn up yourself. If a olicitor is dealing with the nastiness and technical details, you can devote yourself to be a decent fellow and getting through the divorce as humanly and humanely as possible. Remeber, the solictor is working for you -- if you say "I don't want to be an asshole, just don't let me get hosed", that's what shall be done.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Sunday, 16 February 2003 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

martin,, i cant add any advice but hope you manage to get this sorted out soon. good luck!

donna (donna), Sunday, 16 February 2003 16:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin, this is a semi-serious point:

Is there any chance that your posts to ILX re: the number of CDs you buy (and possibly your crazy swinging sex life) might be found and used in evidence against you?

Best of luck.

N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 16 February 2003 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I don't think so. It's actually a while since I've listed loads of CDs I bought, and the large batches were always in big sales. My sex life will not be an issue, though it would be unfair to my ex-wife to explain why.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, 16 February 2003 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't have any advice, but i just want to say i'm sorry that you're going through this Martin. i hope things work out for you - good luck!

sand.y, Sunday, 16 February 2003 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin, lots of luck. I hope it all works out somewhat ok. :- (

lyra (lyra), Monday, 17 February 2003 01:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin, you have such a *big* life. Good luck with sorting things out as efficiently and painlessly as possible.

Lara (Lara), Monday, 17 February 2003 12:13 (twenty-two years ago)

I add my well-wishes to everyone else and echo the advice of everyone else recommending that you hire representation.

Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 17 February 2003 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

If we've concluded the advice section of the thread, then the best of luck, man.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Monday, 17 February 2003 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks to everyone. The sound and consistent advice will be taken, and the good wishes are much appreciated.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 17 February 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Just found this thread Martin, wanted to add my best wishes. My boyf is going through a really messy divorce right now and he's also tried to be reasonable but to no avail, it's taken him a long time to realise that trying to be nice about these things just costs you more and the long run. I echo everyones advice, get some help soon. Your first meeting with a lawyer is always free anyway. Good luck.

smee (smee), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I took today off work and had an initial consultation, making clear what the next steps are. I am feeling less awful about this now. One thing I was told was that it is common practice to continue negotiation anyway, so we are trying for that, as I'd like to get this done, so I can sell this house and move somewhere I can really afford.

(I also got the official court notification of the application: it was made before they wrote to tell me that they had decided to do so, not that it makes any difference except it is a repeat of the way this thing has gone all the way. Bear in mind that she switched to these lawyers last year, and this was our first contact - not even a token attempt at negotiation!)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Good to hear, Martin -- hope it all goes well. A good friend who I was visiting this past weekend just had notice that a formal divorce proceeding is about to kick in as well, so the subject's actually been on my mind.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 19 February 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)


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