Financial advice.

(sorry this isnt very helpful)

Under the new banking code any transfer of bank accounts should go through in two weeks and the banks themselves should not fuck things up (and if they do you yunder the code there are some good rates of compensation). Once you've moved to change your account the new bank will do all the work with your payroll and transfering direct debits. Moving your current account to one of the interest bearing current accounts (Halifax / Abbey National are both offering good deals at the moment) are the best bet.

Cahoot is absolutely fine. Just make sure you read the small print, and that you're doing this to save money, not just to prolong your indebtedness. And try and overpay whenever possible - the more you pay off, the less you'll owe, and the less interest there'll be.

I haven't had anything to do with this sort of thing for years now, so I may be remembering wrongly.

Apologies for wasting your time.

I need to figure this stuff out.

First thing you need to know is how you feel about risk. A whole lot of what you do will depend on this. Risk means, in the simplest terms, that you might lose money instead of gaining any.

After you come to terms with risk, you can follow a few simple strategies to mitigate it a little, but what you can't do is change the basic nature of risk. Bigger payoffs correlate very strongly to bigger risks.

The exceptions to this rule are like finding wads of cash on the street - iow, they are the stuff of dreams, but there's no known way to draw a map for finding them. So, forget about 'em.

What do you need to sort out? If you've got debts, it's generally a good thing to figure out which ones are costing you the most and prioritise paying off those first. If you're saving and the interest on your savings is a lower rate than what you pay on your debts, then prioritise your debts over savings.
I feel like there are simple principles wrt personal finance that become to seem overly complicated with all the products you can get. Iirc you are in the US so the site I always recommend as a starting point won't be much help :)

Can we turn this into a rolling financial advice thread? I'm really working at righting the wrongs and reversing the bad habits of my twenties now I have a decent job. I have read a few helpful books and I guess I know what I need to do, I just want to feel like I am saving/investing in the "right" way whatever that means.

To answer the above question, I have worked at paying down my debts first even though I have little in the way of savings and would like to change that. Both of our cars are about to paid off and I will soon have eradicated $9k worth of credit card debt in the space of 6/7 months, so I guess I am doing well. The only debt I will have left is a colossal student loan, for which I have managed to get hefty but just about manageable IBR payments for. I have a 401k for which I am trying to pick funds right now, I have a relatively high-interest savings account which I make monthly contributions to and want to roll into a Roth. What else am I missing? As in the above post, there are just too many financial products out there and I would prefer to pick something on the steady-but-safe side because of my loans.

do you own a house? are you thinking about/planning on buying one in the near future?

I guess Q1 would be do you have a sizable emergency/cushion fund saved up? I think they say something like 6 months expenses is ideal. You may already know that if you've been reading financial advice books.

Do you get any 401k matching from your company?

The thing about a 401k is that it's a retirement account, which means that it's not that easy to take money out before retirement, although I believe there are certain "events" that allow you to withdraw penalty-free. I'm not sure that your student loan balance is a reason to prefer safer vs. more risky investments in a retirement account - seems like two separate considerations. You have IBR on your loans, so your payment would presumably be modifiable if your financial circumstances change.

That said, I can't claim to know what's a good 401k investment right now b/c markets have been so ridiculous and tumultuous in the past several years. First question, I guess, would be what are your options, b/c companies usually offer some limited slate. My general feeling is stay away from "exotic" sounding funds and stick with something like a large cap stock fund or an index fund, preferably a low-cost one (these funds carry fees that eat into your returns). Vanguard and Fidelity have reputations for having good funds that are low cost, so if your company offers any you might look at those.

That said, just remember that this money should be ultra-long-term focused. You shoudln't put money into a 401k that you think you might want in 5 years for a down payment on a house. And only ultra-long-term investing will ride out the insane waves the market has started to see.

The thing about a 401k is that it's a retirement account, which means that it's not that easy to take money out before retirement, although I believe there are certain "events" that allow you to withdraw penalty-free.

It is fairly easy to take money out of a 401k pre-retirement, however, you are stuck with a 10% penalty if you take money out early and don't put it back within a short period of time. And the state of CA (you're a SoCal guy, iirc?) imposes a 2.5% penalty. The only exceptions to the penalty are if you become permanently disabled or have exceptionally large medical expenses. If you are considering buying a house in the next few years, you might want to consider putting money in an IRA, which allows exceptions to the early withdrawal penalty for buying a house.

Don't own a house, would like to one day but no certain plans to in the near future. If I could make good investments that would make me feel better about renting, then I may just stick with that.

xp

q1 - no I don't have much of an emergency fund. I see my savings account as being that, I guess, and would probably build that up before saving for an investment.

401k - yes my company offers Vanguard, and from what I've heard, people have been doing really well with them even under the current financial conditions. I just have like 20 funds to pick from them and it is a little dizzying.

Thanks, guys!

As far as what to invest in -- what Hurting said -- the market is so screwy, it's hard to say. I think conventional wisdom suggests to pick something stable that pays a good dividend (however many of these companies might give you ethical qualms, e.g. Chevron).

I AM a SoCal guy, yes. And while I would like a house, houses around here don't seem like value for money to me.

Yeah, the ethics things is tricky. I've been looking at a lot of companies that I really should hate on principle.

xp - yeah, I think your area, as well as mine, as well as NYC are still in the "better to rent" category.

It's hard for me to get into a positive mindset about long-term investment. I can see that in 30 years I would be delighted with myself for putting in a reasonable amount of diligence right now, but I don't want to spend that 30 as some kind of self-sacrificing wage slave. I guess I have only myself to blame for that.

I am one of these people that firmly believes I could drop dead/get crushed in an earthquake/be eviscerated in a car accident any day and I want to enjoy life, like, right now. I also really would like to be my own boss beginning some time in the next 10 years. That's more important to me than owning a house, right now anyway.

Also if either of you or anyone else can recommend a good regular resource (blogs, podcasts, whatev) for financial advice that isn't eye-rollingly dull, do tell!

what's the interest rate like on your loans?

another piece of conventional wisdom: tend to the higher interest rate items first. If your savings/investments are earning interest at a higher rate than you owe on your loans, invest. If the interest on the loans is significantly higher than your savings, considering paying additional $ on those loans.

what's the interest rate like on your loans?

It's horrible, something like 7.5 I think. I was hoping on qualifying for forgiveness through meeting IBR payments but that is anything from 10-25 years away, so my gut feeling is to keep up with the (seriously HUGE) payments and try to do clever things with the remaining money I have.

I guess I'm hoping to put any additional windfalls like tax refunds and small inheritance funds down on the loans to fight the interest, but that's about all I can do for now.

This is why I decided to at least target and wipe out all the other debts I have (car, credit card) as soon as I could, and that has helped me not freak out so much about the loans. Still...

mm yeah, mine are federal, and are only like 2.5%, so I just make the minimum monthly payments via autopay in order to build credit, rather than paying them off faster.

Mine are federal too! But consolidated.

though the interest rate on the loans is probably way lower than on the car and credit card, so you're doing pretty good!

Oh I also have pretty weak credit, given that I only moved to the US a few years ago and have had to build my credit on very little since then. I guess the loans will help with that, haha

Luckily my wife has amazing credit, but we're working on getting my name on more bills so I can work on my rating.

xp - yeah, I try!

what's the interest rate like on your loans?

another piece of conventional wisdom: tend to the higher interest rate items first. If your savings/investments are earning interest at a higher rate than you owe on your loans, invest. If the interest on the loans is significantly higher than your savings, considering paying additional $ on those loans.

― sarahell, Friday, March 30, 2012 1:54 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

what's the interest rate like on your loans?

It's horrible, something like 7.5 I think. I was hoping on qualifying for forgiveness through meeting IBR payments but that is anything from 10-25 years away, so my gut feeling is to keep up with the (seriously HUGE) payments and try to do clever things with the remaining money I have.

― International Simon (admrl), Friday, March 30, 2012 1:57 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah this is also something I was wondering. Doesn't the interest keep accumulating with IBR? I.e. aren't you basically growing your debt more by making smaller payments? But then on the other hand, as you say, you might qualify for forgiveness. But that's a long way off.

Normally when you have debt you ask yourself (1) do I need the money for more immediate things than paying off the debt/for emergencies, and (2) is the interest rate on the debt higher than anything I can make in an investment? If so, it pays to pay off the debt.

A simple illustration: you have $100000, and you have a $100000 debt. You put the $100000 in a mutual fund and make 5% a year. Meanwhile the loan is at 7%. At the end of the year you have $150,000 but your loan has grown to $170,000.

But like I said this gets a little more confusing if the loan might one day be forgiven altogether.

Admrl, it sounds like you should put a small amount into your 401k every month, and maybe just pick one relatively stable stock fund to start (you probably won't have enough in the account to make it worth picking more than one). That little bit could wind up going a long way if you really leave it there, what with the magic of compound interest. BUT, be prepared to watch the balance rise and fall, or better yet, do not watch the balance!

Meanwhile, it sounds like bigger priorities might be putting away more for emergencies and paying down more debt.

And even the Vanguard fund that your friends are doing well with or w/e is going to have terrible, terrible years. Remember that it's long-term. Repeat that over and over again for yourself. Part of why Vanguard and a few other companies are good is because they don't charge you heavy fees that some companies do (for performance that's no better or even worse).

Those numbers should be $105,000 and $107,000, Hurting, but the idea is correct.

haha whoops

Yeah this is also something I was wondering. Doesn't the interest keep accumulating with IBR? I.e. aren't you basically growing your debt more by making smaller payments?

Yes, it does accumulate. But bear in mind, these "smaller" payments are very big, like, I'm talking more than monthly rent on a studio apartment-big, so "smaller" is a relative term here. I could pay more down, but yes I am hoping to qualify for forgiveness if the Fed keeps true to its word or on the very small chance that someone comes up with a smarter solution in the shorter term. It would make me feel better to at least have a shorter term rainy-day fund and invest "something" in a fund that will have higher interest rates.

But yes, I see your point, its just that somehow the idea of putting over half my paycheck onto those loans is a) a distinctly horrible thought and b) not necessarily the solution if still a sizeable chunk of them could one day be forgiven.

Further clarification - the IBR I pay is calculated off of my wife and my gross income, but I am paying it just from mine, so I am already paying a lot more than I would were I to file on my own and apply for IBR based on my salary alone. So I figure I'm already paying a buttload as it is.

Word.

Well, main thing I would say is build up your emergency fund is more of a priority than 401k, and nothing in your 401k is going to guarantee you a higher rate than you pay on your loan.

This is very educational!

there are also products called target funds, which vary the levels of risk based on your projected retirement age. the conventional wisdom is that you should invest in riskier things when you are young, and reduce your risk as you get older.

even if you are a first-time investor?

Oh here's a question. If my 401k doesn't offer a company contrib for another year, should I just open a Roth IRA and contribute to that instead? (Or, as well?)

yes, especially if you are first-time investor. though, really, you need to determine what level of risk you are comfortable with. if you, like me, are kinda a scaredy-cat when it comes to having your money disappear in large quantities, then go with something lower-risk. Just realize that you probably aren't going to make as much money on your investments as if you were to invest in higher risk products.

Having, like, no investments of note makes me feel like I could either go safe or mad risky.

you could also buy government bonds, which are a pretty safe investment, and interest can be tax free depending on the bonds.

there are also products called target funds, which vary the levels of risk based on your projected retirement age. the conventional wisdom is that you should invest in riskier things when you are young, and reduce your risk as you get older.

― sarahell, Monday, April 2, 2012 3:32 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Well that's true, but usually by "riskier" they mean stocks and stock funds as opposed to bonds, not let it all ride on the zynga ipo.

well yes. diversification is another important concept.

true, but that's also a misunderstood concept, especially with 401k's, where people are like "I have $5000, I'm going to put it in 10 different mutual funds." A lot of mutual funds are already diversified as it is. An index fund is going to be pretty diversified as far as US stocks go.

Srsly I think if you're talking about like a couple hundred a month or something, admrl, just put it in a broad index fund. Meanwhile, you can gradually educate yourself about investing, and when you have some money built up in the index fund you can start looking at moving some money into other options as well.

But with this very serious caveat: You might put in $1000 this year, and then watch it go to $400 as the market completely crashes b/c IDK war with Iran or some bubble we didn't know existed. At that point, the thing to do is not to take your money out but to keep adding the same monthly amount -- you're actually lucky because now you're buying in cheap, and it will all average out.

For a 401k, as long as your are not close to retirement age, I would pick at least 5 funds to spread across. 20% in some type of us equity fund, 20% in a bond fund, 20% in an international equity fund, 20% in some index fund you think sounds interesting, and then randomly pick the last 20%. It's all a crapshoot anyway, and you should look at it every quarter and rebalance as you learn more. I would never put all of my money in one fund with the hopes that it will still be there at retirement. And, if your company has a company stock fund, never have more than 10% of your money in there. If the company flops, you lose your job and your retirement.

And the one big advantage of doing an trad./Roth IRA over a 401k if your company does not match, is that you are not restricted to pre-selected mutual funds like a 401k. If you wanted to put all of your retirement in AAPL, go crazy.

My company gives a straight contrib, but not for another 9 months. Do I go IRA until then maybe (and beyond?)?

If they are matching it dollar to dollar up to a certain percent after another 9 more months I would just wait until then to open it especially if you have other things you could be paying off in the meantime. Otherwise, the amount you would contribute in the next 9 months to an IRA is pretty negligible unless there is something you have been dying to invest in and is a really good price right now (although the market is also really high right now, so I wouldn't think it would be a good time to buy most things, unless you were planning on holding it forever anyway.)

No, it's not a match, they just automatically contribute an amount that matches 10% of my salary whether I contribute or not, which is nice of them. I think I see now what I can do. very cool.

For a 401k, as long as your are not close to retirement age, I would pick at least 5 funds to spread across. 20% in some type of us equity fund, 20% in a bond fund, 20% in an international equity fund, 20% in some index fund you think sounds interesting, and then randomly pick the last 20%. It's all a crapshoot anyway, and you should look at it every quarter and rebalance as you learn more. I would never put all of my money in one fund with the hopes that it will still be there at retirement. And, if your company has a company stock fund, never have more than 10% of your money in there. If the company flops, you lose your job and your retirement.

― Yerac, Monday, April 2, 2012 9:00 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And the one big advantage of doing an trad./Roth IRA over a 401k if your company does not match, is that you are not restricted to pre-selected mutual funds like a 401k. If you wanted to put all of your retirement in AAPL, go crazy.

― Yerac, Monday, April 2, 2012 9:01 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ok a few things here. First, you're not really necessarily reducing risk just by picking five funds. An index fund is already going to have a wide swath of different kinds of stocks in it -- diversification is the whole point of a fund to begin with. The risk you're not really insulated from with an index fund is risks to the entire stock market (e.g. the financial crisis), and it's pretty hard to hedge against those in a 401(k), especially since these risks are increasingly global. But just picking five different funds (WAY too many with a small investment, btw) is going to likely be redundant and pointless unless they cover distinct areas, e.g. a large cap (big established companies) fund and a small cap (smaller companies with more growth potential but more risky) fund. Or maybe a US index fund and an international fund or two.

Second, I think it's not worth it to put money in an IRA/Roth IRA for only 9 months, he'll wind up with this runt extra retirement account that will never be worth much and be an extra thing to keep track of.

But I agree about rebalancing and about company stock.

Wld buy every1 in this thread revive a beer

Oh I guess you said the same about the IRA.

Also, I would add that for a long-term investor, the risk of "losing all your money" in an index fund is really negligible unless the country permanently collapses, in which case I don't think there's any fund that will save you. I mean you're talking about the entire stock market crashing and never ever recovering in order for that to happen.

Or if you make the mistake of selling everything right after a crash, obv. Don't make that mistake!

Oh and to be clear, I'm not saying put all your money in one fund for the rest of your life, I just think spreading around hundreds or single-digit thousands of dollars among five different funds is pointless. When your nest egg builds up you can start splitting it up a bit more.

dividends and dividend reinvestment plans/features are also something to look into when picking a stock or a fund.

I have a chunk of money I'm thinking of using to invest in mutual funds (based on advice from this book). I don't anticipate needing this money anytime soon but if I did, how easy would it be to access? I'm assuming buying into this sort of thing isn't as simple as a bank savings account. And, as/if the funds grow, what kind of taxes need to be paid each year?

You should set up an account at a brokerage -- I would recommend Fidelity based on my experience. Don't do it through your bank, because they'll try to sell you some bullshit high-cost funds that they manage. If it's for retirement, and you don't need ready access to the money, do it through an IRA or Roth IRA, and you'll get significant tax savings. Otherwise just a regular brokerage account, and even there, you don't pay taxes until you sell at a profit. While you're just holding the funds, you don't have to pay taxes on them.

As far as access to the money, if it's just money in your brokerage account, all you have to do is sell some shares of the mutual fund, which is usually relatively fast if it's a major fund, and then have the money distributed to you, which is slower than a savings account withdrawal but should be relatively quick - probably best to just talk to someone at the brokerage about that and find out what the procedure is. If the money is in an IRA or Roth IRA though it may take longer AND you will pay a penalty for pre-retirement withdrawal unless it's for a "hardship" exception.

i'd recommend something like scottrade over fidelity. there's a lot of fees etc... at fidelity.

You will likely be paying some taxes on the funds, though. When the managers sell a stock that's part of the fund at a profit, the gain for that slice of the overall fund is a taxable event. The fund will send you the 1040-DIV (I think) form that lists the amount, so it's still easy to do your income tax.

Index funds, like ones that contain the Standard & Poor 500, for example, don't have this happening as often.

Also, I think component stocks giving dividends is a taxable event, even though that money goes into your account as more shares of the fund.

Thanks all. This isn't for retirement. I have a Roth IRA already with Vanguard. I plan on buying index funds with them.

you don't pay taxes until you sell at a profit.
I think component stocks giving dividends is a taxable event

Yeah, the book I linked to mentions both these points: the growth is tax-free until you sell, but you have to pay tax on dividends. I'm guessing this isn't something to worry too much about?

the amount will be very small unless you're putting in like hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars

if you're planning to put it in S&P500, there are some tracker stocks that have better expense ratios than even vanguard.

Financial advice needed! Although maybe it's basically common sense.

I have a small pension from a past employer. It's fully vested and will pay out $120 a month starting when I'm 65. Right now the pension company is offering us lump sum payout if we forfeit future payments.

The thing is, the lump sum amt is only equivalent to about 3.5 years' worth of monthly pension payments. So if I lived to be more than 68 years old, I lose money overall.

The payout would be extremely useful to me but I am not in dire straits and can live without it. Otoh I might not even live to age 65 and $120 a month is not very much and maybe I should take my $ now and live my life with it?

Help?

IANAPA but I would not take the lump sum. just my 2c

depend on so much tho

Does the lump sum offer have a limited window for acceptance?

Yes of course. Until Oct 2 to decide.

it would depend on what exactly you would use that money for now vs how much you project to have for retirement without the $120 a month.

Yeah I would probably just pay down credit and short-term save/spend the rest on travel. What I probably SHOULD do is roll it over into an IRA or other kind of re-investment--yes?

Re retirement, I have a 401k and a vested pension from my current employer. The pension plan itt is from a brief employment more than 15 years ago.

I mean, if you have high interest rate bills you could pay completely off now I would probably lean towards the lump sum. You can roll it over into an IRA but it would still be the same amount of money as the lump sum just without the tax penalty. I doublechecked that pensions are still currently insured if a company ends up going under (yes).

i think sarahell is a cpa?

experts always give mixed answers to these things because it is too situation-dependent. but that amount is small and if you have a pension and 401k already, $120/month may not be worth it. it depends on the interest rate of the debt, but i love to pay off debt. i would take lump sum, pay the debt, put any balance in IRA, and bump up 401k contributions by the amount you were paying toward the debt. then you save on both interest and taxes.

(yeah, I kind of wanted to say that $120 a month is kind of negligible by the time you hit 65 but I also didn't want to say 120 was negligible, ya know).

I also am very big on people paying off any debt first. I had a friend that just finally paid off all his credit cards. BUT, he kept the money in his checking account until he had enough to pay it all off at once because "it felt better." I was horrified.

would it pay 120 a month for life?

if you dont make 65, does anyone else get a benefit or is it a strict annuity payment for you only?

all things being equal id lean towards cashing in if you could use the lump now more than you see yourself using the 120 in time.

The thing is, the lump sum amt is only equivalent to about 3.5 years' worth of monthly pension payments. So if I lived to be more than 68 years old, I lose money overall

and 120 a month isnt getting any more valuable, actuarially speaking, whereas cash now is worth cash now iykwim.

xp everyone otm re tm

I HAVE A STRUCTURED SETTLEMENT AND I NEED CASH NOW

thats what the normans used to say to us iirc

There would (presumably) be a higher tax impact taking it now in a lump sum versus getting $120/mo after you're retired, though. I'm thinking the payment now would be about $5000?

(yeah, I kind of wanted to say that $120 a month is kind of negligible by the time you hit 65 but I also didn't want to say 120 was negligible, ya know).

I agree! lol

i would take lump sum, pay the debt, put any balance in IRA, and bump up 401k contributions by the amount you were paying toward the debt. then you save on both interest and taxes.

^^ What I'm thinking.

would it pay 120 a month for life?

if you dont make 65, does anyone else get a benefit or is it a strict annuity payment for you only?

Yes for life, and yes I can assign a beneficiary who can receive a percentage of my payouts for their lifetime in one of several arrangement options. As pensions go, it seems like a good set-up. It's just not much money bc my division of the company got sold and stopped being part of the parent company after a short time.

And nickn is exactly right, if I roll it over it's $6k+ and if I take the cash payout it's $5k. Which is enough to be helpful and possibly not enough to change my situation 20 years from now.

i think sarahell is a cpa?

I'm a licensed tax preparer, but not a CPA, because that certification requires an accounting degree or the equivalent academic coursework, which I haven't done ... but ...

I would take the lump sum, because of the time value of money (it will be worth less in the future, and maybe much less), and because the pessimistic cynical side of me says that the way the government has coddled corporations and employers, along with the impending mass retirement of the baby boomers, I can imagine a future where pension obligations get settled for pennies on the dollar, and your $120/month is basically worthless.

$6k - $7k generally isn't a "whole lot" as far as amounts that will potentially screw you or push you into a new tax bracket. But, all the same, I would roll the whole thing over into an IRA (or if you don't want to deal with having your own account and it's possible to put it in your work 401k -- then do that).

If you take the money and don't roll it over ... I don't know what your income situation is -- some people make little enough money that they would only owe the 10% early withdrawal penalty the IRS charges and no income tax, but I am guessing, since you have a 401k at your job, that you probably make enough to pay income tax -- so you would probably be paying at least 20% on that money.

Fortunately, you don't live in California, which would also charge a penalty -- New York, to my knowledge, does not. But the money would be taxable to the state (unless you were a public school teacher and it was a NY State teacher's pension, which isn't taxable to the state of NY). However, it could reduce your state/city renter's credit (if you get one), and also you'd want to make sure that it doesn't make you ineligible for health insurance subsidies (again, dunno if this is applicable to you -- a lot of my clients are low income and have to think about this stuff). Anyway, if you take the money -- be sure to have state tax withheld as well!! A lot of these companies that handle these payouts don't automatically take out or calculate state income tax, and I've seen people get relatively screwed because of that.

My general take is that if the lump sum can be put toward something that is immediately life-changing in a positive way, then it is clearly worthwhile to take it and shift your life onto a more positive track. That pays dividends that may not be quantifiable in terms of money, but usually have valuable repercussions that can last the rest of your life.

If you are just trying to figure out which approach has a slightly greater marginal return over the next few decades, then the very fact that you have trouble figuring this out is a large clue that even if you had the lump sum, you might not manage it optimally anyway, due to a lack of knowledge, time or attention.

I wonder if there is scope for negotiation. The instruction wants out of what it sees as a costly arrangement, admin costs over the next however many years plus then the risk that they can’t make enough money to pay the monthly payout over whatever they see is your actuarial life.

I’d be tempted to go back to them and ask for another 1500-2000 dollars. If they want out of the arrangement they should be paying a premium.

I would take the lump sum, because of the time value of money (it will be worth less in the future, and maybe much less), and because the pessimistic cynical side of me says that the way the government has coddled corporations and employers, along with the impending mass retirement of the baby boomers, I can imagine a future where pension obligations get settled for pennies on the dollar, and your $120/month is basically worthless.

― sarahell

god, my pessimistic cynical side really fucks up my ability to invest. i'm trying to "save for retirement" while also waiting for the complete collapse of capitalism and that cognitive dissonance does not much help my decision making ability :( thank god for survivalism because being able to see how fucking stupid those people are is the only thing keeping me from doing the same dumb shit.