Never use a personal relationship to advance a professional one...

To clarify things a bit, I have a "friend" who has been after me like a ton of bricks to write about his band. Normally, I don't really have a problem with this, if I think that a friend is talented, and I can do something to help them, I will bend over backwards to do what little that I can to help them out. This guy (yes, it's fucking Hilton, before you ask) ... I feel like he really crossed some kind of line, because he was not just playing with the fact he knew I was attracted to him, but also because the way that he turned everything into a "Oh, if you won't help me band, it must be because I am WORTHLESS!!!" tantrum.

In the end, I wrote the article. I also slept with him. The two weren't connected in the "tit for tat" (heh) sense, but they were still very connected in my mind, and ultimately, in the way that I wrote the article.

Result 1: He is now trying to pretend that we never slept together. (Why do boys DO this?)

Result 2: He hates the article, he's "embarrassed" by it, he wants me to redo it as a straight interview.

I don't want to rewrite, I think it's one of the most powerful things I've ever written, about the links between sex and music, about crushes, about archetypes, about what I hold dear in music. I'll take his name out and run it as an abstract piece.

I always thought that the reason you shouldn't write about your friends/lovers was that you couldn't hope to be objective about then. No, it's the fact that you have to be careful what you wish for, you will always get it, but not in the form that you want. It's the fact that when things get sticky, you destroy both the personal relationship, and the professional one.

Oh wait, sorry, we never HAD a personal relationship, I was always just some journo he wanted to impress. Excuse ME for misinterpreting.

or, to put it another way, the feeling of being used is not a good one. if this happens in a professional capacity, you just think that person is annoying and carry on, because there is still the 'work' to be done, an end to achieve. in a personal relationship, being used is pretty much the end, because the relationship itself is the end. and what is the point in a friendship/relationship where someone is using you for something, you can get that anywhere

tantrum is dud.

you have to trust enough to say no this is unacceptable. tantrum or no tantrum. throw a tantrum and get own way = throw a tantrum again

I don't want to rewrite, I think it's one of the most powerful things I've ever written, about the links between sex and music, about crushes, about archetypes, about what I hold dear in music. I'll take his name out and run it as an abstract piece.

no rewrite.

I always thought that the reason you shouldn't write about your friends/lovers was that you couldn't hope to be objective about then.

you shouldnt write about friends/lovers because they should be more important than the writing. of if they are not, they should be aware of this from the outset

It's the fact that when things get sticky, you destroy both the personal relationship, and the professional one.

there is more emotion in personal than professional. personal=me time. professional=business, i am interested in end product only. i have no like or dislike for any professional contacts. the 2 have never overlapped for me luckily

Oh wait, sorry, we never HAD a personal relationship, I was always just some journo he wanted to impress. Excuse ME for misinterpreting.

perhaps it was not a personal relationship in his eyes. i am not saying this is good or bad, but something can be one thing to one person, and another to another, and unless things are talked through, miscommunication will occur

oops. i used 2 different meanings of 'end' there

should have said

in a personal relationship, being used will ruin things, because the relationship itself is the whole point, there is no 'end' to achieve. ruin that you dont ruin the means to an end, you ruin the end itself

It's like... christ, boy, what is GOOD enough for you? if I write the best thing I've ever written, and he hates it.

I don't know why I feel so used now, as opposed to before. I guess cause it's not just a personal rejection, but rejection of *my* art.

:-(

Two-faced shit, after how nice he was to Suzy and Ed last night. Oh, that's right, Suzy is a JOURNALIST, I bet she can DO STUFF for his band. And then starts asking her for Nick's address... get it off the web like the rest of his psycho fans! Hah!

Anyone in London going to Kosmische tonight? I need backup, coz if I see him, I'm going to punch him. No drinking for me, then!

No, we utterly and completely talked about this. I told him that I was suspicious of him, that one of my biggest fears was the he was just using me for what I could do for him. He swore up and down that it was more than that.

But, rule number one about boys: BOYS LIE. They will say one thing when they are lying in bed next to you naked, and another thing when they smell the coffee and realised that they've been compromised and compromising.

You live and you learn.

ie. was this a personal relationship in his eyes?

the whole situation (as i have read it on ilx thus far - which may only give me a partial picture) has screamed WARNING! ALARM BELLS! WARNING! all along. i dont think this is a particularly normal situation in that you chased after this person very strongly indeed, which is already going to distort any kind of friendship/relationship. it sounds like this has gone through a complete whirlwind without ever settling down to see where the land lies on either of your parts.

Two-faced shit, after how nice he was to Suzy and Ed last night

i am assuming there has been fallout between you and him. but should this have any bearing on his relationship with suzy and ed?

i may be at kosmische tonite, even though www.lost.co.uk is on, as no one will go. i havent decided yet

Perhaps this is why I'm so disappointed now... I thought we were having this interesting, off-kiltre, weird, uncategorisable THING, and it's been crystallised into a normal, boring, conventional, careerist, middle class PROFESSIONAL CONTACT. Boring with a capital BLAH. I can handle tantrums and wierdness, I can't handle boredom.

I should go to Kosmische anyway, I know, I shouldn't let him scare me off, and besides, I think he's fallen out with that lot anyway. I'll see you at the Arse Cafe if you go...

Anyway, I'm really sorry it's turned out so badly. I can't help, and I don't have anything much to offer in the way of advice. But if you run out of shoulders to cry on (unlikely, I expect), I have two going spare.

there is no difference between the two. the uncategorisable is simply the conventional before the rules are set down. even if the rules are unusual they are still rules. and the conventional always has a period of uncategorisable and weird, because its rules are not yet established

(Yeah, and I know I've said that before.)

And then you find out that even David Bowie is a middle aged businessman who sends his kids to the same posh Swiss boarding school as your accountant godparents...

this has nothing to do with this person, of who i know nothing and have never met

individuality and unconventionality are conflated by society, this is wrong, they are very different things indeed.

Better to submit the article with his name taken out, and just terminate whatever is left of the "friendship" and chalk it up to experience.

My solution, for what it's worth, is 1) separate the musician from the music, and 2) seriously assess which musicians I find so attractive that I don't believe I can write objectively about them and their music. Of course, this probably won't help much because I try to approach music analytically, whereas you think more in terms of the subjective experience. I'm not saying that's bad, just different.

But I don't blame you for being so hurt -- from all your descriptions Hilton embodies everything you liked and admired in a man, wrapped up in a floppy-haired DDB package. Last year I was chasing after a local musician who had a similar affect on me, and I know from the experience that the sort of fantasy relationship you can project onto such a man can be addictive.

and j.lu is correct. no one lives up to projection, and they shouldnt have to. no one wants to fit someones preordained abstract, they want to be liked for who they are. this can be very flattering of course, but it will never be taken seriously, becuase at base, they will feel they were never taken seriously for who they were, only as a representation of an ideal they dont know the mechanics of

The man in question has been a scene pleb since well before 1991, when I first met him because he was making sure people who hung out around Pulp were luvved up (ahem). He does club things, but the night he's most associated with was founded by other people. He's been trying to get signed to Nick's label ever since it began and has even signed the guestbook on his website as a form of begging letter to this effect (I don't think I'd be speaking out of turn to say it's not going to happen, not even if he's in a good band). Much as I enjoy watching this man attempt to climb fame's greasy pole with WAY too much lube on his hands, it's really rather pathetic of him to beg for publicity directly from journalists and spend so much energy trying to control what is written should any of us agree.

I think Kate is best out of this situation because nobody should have to deal with paranoid narcissist control-freak wannabes who make a good first impression but ultimately don't have the substance to back it up. I'd be willing to bet he's never thought about what substance is without adding the word 'controlled' in front.

ha ha!

Being so hungry for fame that he unintenionally fucks things up for himself does NOT diminish his talent.

I agree that I'm better off out of the situation, though. Still can't decide whether to leave the name in or out. Cozen, what do you think, since you've read the piece now?

I can handle his rejection of my romantic/sexual advances, especially considering that he was willing not to reject them after half a can of cider.

But having my WORD rejected hurts me on a level I can't even begin to explain. Like, I was willing to take him and his work seriously, but he's not willing to take what *I* do seriously except as tool of his own self glorification. Yet another case of total inequality, why does this come as a surprise?

Right. I *am* going to Kosmische now. Really.

If he's not alright with you divulging that stuff (cos it is quite personal the article - even tho' I think you're laying yourself more open than hisself) you shouldn't run his name, but its no great loss.

Great article, anyway. I wish I could focus.

I am not wasting one more second of time on this annoying wastrel who is a mere extra in my film of Life. And I wouldn't be calling him a scene pleb unless I found the games he plays to be exceptionally boring and bogus.

His band *is* good, though. Hope he learns a few little lessons about life before he fucks up his big chance.

for all that this thread is all about the crazy world of music journalism and being in bands, it does basically sound like a Perils Of Office Romance type cautionary tale.

Yes, there are times it is difficult to work with friends. You do want a bond with work collaborators but the main problem: if you cannot for whatever reason work together after trying to, most of the time the relationship fizzles. This has certainly happened to me, as has 'scene' crap at the hands of people I thought were intelligent enough to know better but in reality were just discovering playground-level hassling and cocaine for the first time. I don't take such things personally any more as punching-bag status can be very arbitrary and have zero basis in reality. Or you just tell yourself they're treating everyone like shit and will shortly be meeting Comeuppance Express.

Obviously with my job I've had more than 10 years of people asking me to write about them. Sometimes these requests are absolutely cringe-making but sometimes I'm happy for an opportunity to say something about someone I know where a dimension of their work has not been borne into account. And obviously sometimes there is pressure to get friends to agree to magazine coverage where I feel iffy about doing so.

Article is staying as is, no rewrite, no name-change. His band needs the publicity and he needs to learn that there is no such thing as bad press. The friendship, I fear, is over, but ah well. Saddening but probably for the best.

I am happy because I've made a new friend who floors me with her intelligence and her talent and her taste. I'm happy because Percy the cute soundman flirted with me, even though I was too drunk to respond with anything but giggling. (I got to touch his hair, though) I'm happy because I danced to the amazing 22 minute version of I Feel Love.

I'm sick of imaginary. The boy's name is Horton Jupiter. His band is called They Came From The Stars (I Saw Them). I may ask to have this post removed in the mornig when I'm sober but the fantasy and the silliness revolving around the false name is more interesting than the truth. What sucks is, they are actually really good. This is what will get lost in the wash.

Both of us went after each other like a ton of bricks. Both of us got what we thought we wanted, but neither of us was happy with the end result. Isn't that the way that life goes?

Percy has really soft hair. I was surprised.

I'm not objecting to what you are saying, but on your anonymity. I am DEEPLY suspicious of anyone who cannot stand behind what they say enough to add their name to it. No, I don't know who are you, I'm not a mind-reader.

Things I've learned from the experience:
1) never offer an artist a kill option on a story. bad idea
2) stand by your principles, even in the face of lust

i can only suggest that your pursuit of this person was far too aggressive and relentless (any mistakes on his part are not relevant now, you cannot change his behaviour, but you can change your own) and that helped to facilitate the situation that occurred.

i am glad kosmiche was good, i didnt make it out anywhere in the end. i needed sleep too much

3) Just because someone says that they are OK with something does not mean that they will not ultimately crumble to societal pressure about misconceptions over "aggressive" women.

Even though the worst (and most undeserved) slagfest on me on ILX, Horton stood resolute that he wasn't bothered by it, in fact he was flattered by it, and ENCOURAGED it, because ... he thought he could use it to his advantage. His pursuit of PUBLICITY was just as agressive and relentless as my pursuit of him.

But we are derailing this train of thread before it becomes another "Let's bash on Kate for daring to have emotions which she displays in public" thread.

his pursuit of publicity may have been as aggressive and relentless, but that is his problem, and that has also got him into a mess. there is no point worrying about this person, and if he repeats this and gets into more messes there is nothing we/you can do about that.

i think it is totally fine to display emotions in public, i think the thing is to find out what works for you, what has positive effects, what has negative effects. if things as they are work for you there is no need to change them. if this mode produces the effects you want (and this is a one off) then that is good, if this mode produces results like this in the past, it may well again in the future. and you are right, why should you change? but you might need to be better prepared for results like this, which seemed likely from the outset i think

also, it seems that he was ok with your attention and encouraged your attention for an ulterior motive. when that motive was no longer there...? that seems to be the case, rather than societal pressure. societal pressure is a very poor second to emotion

I need to get off the internet right now or I'm gonna start shit I'm going to regret.

Without wanting to diss any of the musicians here:

Kate, it sounds shit, all of it, esp. the fact he slept with you knowing the strength of your attraction and knowing he wasn't goingto do anything about it later. That makes him a bastard in the general run of the mill sense and has nothing to do with his band.

As far as the quote I've pasted above goes, it could have been just the same with someone you'd only met whilst interviewing them. For many artists you'd be nothing more than a human dictaphone anyway, they might be nice, but only in the way they might be to the guy who bought up room service. You're seen as part of their process.

(I'm not saying this doesn't work in reverse. Editors only want good cover stars to sell magazines.)

Which would be something like "Hey, I'm in this struggling indie band which can't get press coverage. I meet this girl who happens to be a music journalist, she fancies me, she says she likes my band. I'm not interested in anything serious, cause I'm fucked up from having my eight-year relationship fall apart - but you know, she's cute, so I don't say no, and you know, maybe it can help my band? What's wrong with that? Now I realise that she's totally in love with me, I want out of the situation cause it's more than I can handle, this could really hurt her, and it could really hurt my band's career!"

Neither of us is the good guy, neither of us is the bad guy. We've both behaved badly. It's a cautionary tale.

I just wish I didn't feel like such shit right now losing another friend through it... Losing friend, losing friends, you got nothing to lose, you don't lose when you lose fake friends.

Everyone's been scared off this thread due to the personal nature of it, but here is a valid question... I remember this was one of the panel discussions at a music conference I once attended. "Can You Be Friends With The Music Press?" I didn't go, but my bassist did (funnily enough there was quite a bit of "discussion" about an ILM semi-regular, heh heh) but I thought it was very curious.

I think the answer is, you can be friends with individual MEMBERS of the music press. But you cannot be friends with The Press as a whole. It is very dangerous territory.

I've got a LOT of friends who are music journalists, simply because I am intrigued by the craft, I enjoy the company of people who are able to talk about music more articulately and intelligently than the average musician. I'm trying to think, but I don't think I have *ever* asked a friend to write anything about my band. We employ a press officer to do that for us, to spare us that imposition. Only once that I can think of has a friend *volunteered* to write something about us - and coincidentally, that friend loved us and believed in us so much that she is now our press person.

As a musician, I don't always view journalists as human dictaphones, I try very hard not to, I try to treat them the way that I'd want to be treated. I've had a few cases where geniune friendships have been formed because you've learned you had things in common - on both sides of the dictaphone. But it's pretty rare. It's usually an awkward weird situation where you have half an hour to make the person fall in love with you and your art, and then you never see them again. Interviews and one night stands have a lot in common.

(Weird, Horton wanted to do a more standard interview, but in a lot of ways, that one night stand *was* the interview, it was the test of his character and my assessment of him.)

Making friends with people in your subject areas isn't that difficult for me but maintaining those friendships can be. A lot of my Britpop-era friends got very big heads over a very short period of time and I just didn't get it because I'm not a money person or a cocaine person. Occasionally even now I miss the people I remember before those things came between us but it's not a case of grand regret - though I can feel a bit wistful about it every now and again.

that's an interesting topic, but it probably works the other way round... I bet lots of music journos think they are friends with the stars, when said stars actually view them as being slightly more important than pondlife in the cosmic scheme of things.

In a fit of "I have cleaned my room, now I must clean out my LIFE!!!" I rang Horton. After five seconds of awkwardness, I said I'd calmed down, he kind of sputtered "I've been meaning to write you and..." and then we both simultaneously sort of spurted "Oh no! I totally overrated, there's been a huge misunderstanding!" and we've agreed to get together for coffee and talk it out.

We actually had a nice little chat, he seemed genuine and friendly and asking me how I was and how my job was and didn't even bring up his band at all until I asked him about it in return.

So *I* may have overreacted, and misunderstood his intentions and his reactions. I think now we've both calmed down we might actually get some resolution here. Phew.

y not?

srsly puke

lol

I'd never get any work done if I didn't use my personal relationships

Yr a weird dude, HH.

I don't know how much there is to discuss, really. It's one of those things where one knows, or should know that one will lose both, or things will not work out well, but people usually/often need to find out first hand perhaps (?). My commiserations (sp?) anyway, for what that's worth.

-- Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 1 March 2003 17:53 (4 years ago) Bookmark Link

What does this even mean? I must have been really drunk or spaced out or something when I posted it.

I mean I'd get bogged down in petty bureaucracy all the time.

guys this is how rich people get jobs

also how many people here have gotten a writing gig because of ILX connections

Yeah - some of my best friends have been bosses!

and regretted it in the morning?

actually, most of the friends i've made in the last ten years have been from work. does this count as using your professional status to enhance your personal life?

what about threatening to withhold rent benefits from hawt single mothers unles they make out with you?

what about threatening to withhold rent benefits from hawt single mothers unles they make out with you?

that's just evil

I don't know depends on whether you have a conflict of interest or not. Or if you're depriving someone more deserving of an opportunity so that you can get ahead. But if it's beneficial for the community at large, it's not a problem.

separating the personal from the professional is one of the affectations of modernity and a totally bogus dichotomy imho. you obviously shouldn't take advantage of your friends / burn down relationships to take some kind of monetary benefit but at the same time ppl in social relationships work w/ each other all the time + this is often how business gets done.

I think in practice the saying "don't mix business with pleasure" means "don't use the fact that someone considers you a friend as an excuse to totally fuck them over"

it's like ppl who trade on family relationships as an excuse to never repay borrowed money

OTM

no matter how clever or subtle you think the maneuver is this shit always backfires

will be relying heavily on friends to get job interviews over the next while, i think

probably shouldn't be screwing anyone over anyway whether they're a friend or a colleague

I don't know depends on whether you have a conflict of interest or not. Or if you're depriving someone more deserving of an opportunity so that you can get ahead. But if it's beneficial for the community at large, it's not a problem.

― Die, Foghat, Die (Mount Cleaners), Monday, August 29, 2011 2:34 PM (43 minutes ago) Bookmark

trying to imagine a circumstance where you could say 'im doing this for the community at large' with a straight face and a clean conscience

probably shouldn't be screwing anyone over anyway whether they're a friend or a colleague

successful capitalism is almost defined by your ability to screw over your competition

recommendations, references are different IMO - aboveboard, not manipulative or devious

also i am the last person on earth anyone should take advice from re: office politics

professional relationships predate capitalism.

water is wet

what these two facts have in common is that they have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation we are having here

I have a relative who probably got her job through connections. This was a long time ago. It's not like my relative was promoted to corporate v.p. or something - it was a receptionist job!

Anyway my relative had to leave her job because someone insinuated she got the job because of "corruption". Is it professional advancement if the job you get pays only $38,000 a year?

On the other hand I hate it when someone gets a job because they are the prettiest or most popular. Discrimination of course but it happens all of the time!!

x-post: imagine away, Hoosie Woozys. It happens! But I'm sure you're the authority on everything. YOu're right, cynicism pays the bills. No wonder no one in my community makes a damned dime.

Sorry to be so snippy, but if we're talking about "imagination", uh talent benefits the community at large. Also many corporations (and non-profits) expect their employers to be socially responsible in some capacity.

what these two facts have in common is that they have absolutely nothing to do with the conversation we are having here

lol, sorry I didn't treat your brilliant insights into capitalism w. the gravity + respect they deserve

Also many corporations (and non-profits) expect their employers to be socially responsible in some capacity.

― Die, Foghat, Die (Mount Cleaners), Monday, August 29, 2011 3:29 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

laugh me a laugh

...

I admit I have "screwed" a few people over...but that is because they wanted to use unfair advantages to get a position ... and they were not the most qualified!

Yes, NO corporations have any sort of business ethics and no business school ever taught business ethics!

lol, sorry I didn't treat your brilliant insights into capitalism w. the gravity + respect they deserve

you think I'm brilliant! SQUEEE

great thread

wouldn't hire a fuckin one of ye, mind

tbf you would be working for me

Anyway my relative had to leave her job because someone insinuated she got the job because of "corruption". Is it professional advancement if the job you get pays only $38,000 a year?

this is nuts! way to... admit that it was corrupt

I'd never get any work done if I didn't use my personal relationships

― Heave Ho

i would do many fewer of my personal relations if i had any work