Why do I not get, care for, and in fact utterly disdain Buffy et al?

andy

why havent they made a(nother) movie yet though? no point perhaps?

I suspect ppl are reading FAR more into the plotlines actually and I get v suspicious when 'cultural commentators' talk abt some 'truth' abt human nature that Buffy is supposed to be revealing.

A friend of mine has every series on tape and is a huge fan (funnily enough I was the one who recommended this stuff to him) (I should ask why he likes it though I'm not sure if i trust him as he likes fucking stargate as well).

i think whedon recognises that i. he is better at TV than movies, ii. TV is (currently) wide open for better deeper work than movies

(nevertheless, xena movie now!!)

note to self: in the summer get all the buffy tapes from my friend and watch them and report back.

why?

no he's a dickhead.

I think there is an amount of over-reading done with Buffy, but that just shows its quality as a multi-faceted text - the ability to find different satisfactory readings says something first about the text but primarily about the audience.

I do my best.

''I wasn't even discussing AA Gill himself''

yeah I know. Just that I hate him.

''because it shows us that the pop universe is notexhausted''

did you think the pop universe was exhausted before the musical episode?

I haven't seen it so the rest of yr post doesn't make too much sense but I'm sure more will become clear when i watch it.

no yr not, you are clearly going in several minutes you fucking prick

my X-Files love was weird - i avoided it at first - didnt get into it until end of Season 2 - became an absolute fanatic by end of Series 3 but lost the plot again after end of Season 5. spent a couple of years away from it totally then just somehow drifted back into it and spent last year catching up with the 'conspiracy arc' from Season 6 onwards and loving it completely, even the hopelessly lost phase where Mulder was missing/being tortured/insane or all three and hardly in it paving the way for Robert Patrick and 'Moronica'

it redeemed itself entirely with the final episode ever tho, if only for Cancer Man's 'explosive okay diehards stop moaning here's your fucking satisfactory death sequence - are you happy? ARE YOU HAPPY NOW? you'd better be you little nerdlings!' final scenes

I think the Hollywood musical was, in a sense, the most sophisticated product of a modernist universe - the one that came into being with cinema, jazz, a certain kind of songwriterly sophistication etc. A pop gesamtkunstwerk, if you want to be Wagnerian about it: a drawing together of lots of threads into a new kind of knot.

Now, let's say a postmodern universe came into being with tv, the teenager, pop music. For a while now, we've been saturated with these histories - and one kind of cultural response to this is entropy. That is, there was a big flareup of creativity, and now we're just left playing mix and match, namedropping, showing how well versed we are in pop - eg the entire oeuvre of Kevin Williamson or 'Popular'. What do we do with all this smartness? The renewed interest in the musical, '69 Love Songs', 'Moulin Rouge' etc are one kind of response to the situation - an adventurous sense of self-conciousness. Some of these things have their merits, but I think part of the importance of 'Once More with Feeling' is that it's the most successful pop confection that's married its learning to a deep love and empathy for pophistory, mixed it all together with wit and sophistication and created something that's richer than the sum of its parts.

('The Simpsons' is equally rich - but it doesn't move me as much)

This wasn't enough to get me to tune in the next week for the second episode, though.

its no less interesting than Buffy's, they have roughly the same array of characters to explore etc. - i suppose Buffy's scope is wider because of the close family ties and the fact that most of them are still tied to the high school/college - and high school/college seems to be the cornerstone of fun teen viewing in the States

I'd agree with him that the musical episode of Buffy was the most sophisticated piece of TV that I saw last year. I also hate (read "doesn't do anything for me") Buffy. I like Popular and CSI.

I got nowhere near the erudition and perspicacity of JtN when trying to figure out why though. (His 'thread into one new knot' metaphor? *melt* an' that.)

My reasons would have to hinge on a close reading of the episode rather than putting it in this wider context that JtN whipped up from the intellectual nowhere.

I think part of the importance of 'Once More with Feeling' is that it's the most successful pop confection that's married its learning to a deep love and empathy for pophistory, mixed it all together with wit and sophistication and created something that's richer than the sum of its parts.

This is interesting because I actually feel this could describe MST3K, as mentioned previously still my favorite TV show ever. Clearly the two shows aren't meant to be equatable and come from two different traditions (Buffy's soap opera gone widescreen TV vs. MST3K's bad-movie/funny-host gambit; the one time MST3K was shoehorned into a serial kind of format the creators resisted it and eventually freed themselves from it), but there's a definite high amount of learning on display, a definite love of pop and reference, definite wit and sophistication (but plenty of fart jokes too and the like ;-)), and definitely something very rich indeed results. Songs themselves were actually a regular running part of the presentation, and while there wasn't anything like a musical format, you could sense the references and play throughout in both analogues and original compositions (the Gilbert/Sullivan homage in a ninth season episode is still one of my favorite moments). The Simpsons got mentioned as something parallel, and I'd argue that South Park, the crudest of the four on the face of it, also demonstrates it (and of course it had its musical triumph with the movie).

My general impression of the musical episode was that it was like ER's live episode, though -- a bit of a stunt and potential ratings grabber, whatever the intentions. This of course doesn't mean the stunt can't work on its own (and clearly it does for many!), and the tweaking of a show to create a 'very special episode' was nicely turned on its head -- usually it's a comedy that gets 'dramatic,' here the idea was to reverse roles in part. But I'd actually say the 'silent' episode used a similar stunt to more interesting effect (general execution, well, a different matter), especially since a series so predicated on its fans appreciating its dialogue removed that key support. It may not possess what Jerry particularly appreciates about the 'musical,' but it had its own virtue.

I'm not entirely sure either! This is one reason why I asked the question and tried to tease out my reasons, at least as I could think of them at the time. I don't rate my pondering on it as something of more importance to my life than 99.99% of other things -- my dad's surgery being a very good recent example, say -- and you're right that I'm not staying up nights worrying about the comments against MBV on the ILM 'say something awful' thread or whatever. Nonetheless, this question was there, like a strange dull ache, and has been for a while. I might have written this months ago or months later or not at all...but as noted on another thread, it might just be me being a touch crankier this morning with the sore throat and all. ;-)

Perhaps ultimately it's an intellectual exercise into why something that theoretically could work doesn't -- why does something that you are 'supposed' to like, or at least could be aimed right at you very well, grate? The vagaries of taste and reception are a large part of the discussion on both boards and I've always been clear on the point of liking what you like and how ultimately that's that. But sometimes things can niggle and make you wonder -- a bit like the article I wrote a couple of years back for FT on the apotheosis of Stephin Merritt and how I wasn't all that impressed.

And it's not a bad thing too that Spike is utterly dreamy.

Ned if I lived closer to you I would let you borrow my dvds. But don't fret the not gettingness. It happens to the best of us.

Carey: Let me know! That would be MAD COOL.

watch disc 3 of season 2.

firefly never came close to this show at its best.

Well, I haven't seen enough Buffy to compare honestly to Firefly, but "Objects in Space" and "The Message" were both amazing episodes.

there are a lot of weak episodes scattered through the series (definitely including a lot of season 1), but for me they're more than compensated for by: a double-handful or so of actually great episodes; the nice balance between comedy, drama and horror, which is harder to maintain than it looks; and the ongoing, evolving relationships between the characters.

I think I need my geeky shit to be fuck-you-world geeky and not chummy we're-all-in-this-renfair-together geeky

yeah buffy is pretty fluffy-bunny in its goodness-can-save-the-world insistence. i guess i'm ok with some fluffy-bunny in my life.

ya but it's also pretty dark in a way that can be surprising... it doesnt ignore the resentments and character flaws and other shit that build up. i really like how there's basically no status quo on the show.

Mordy, have you watched "Lie to Me"? It's probably the best episode they'd done up to that point, and I think it's where the show gets a bit more adult in tone. It's still quite funny, though - lots of cheap jokes at Angel's expense.

I watched the puppet one from the first season last week. Best ending/credits ever.

I haven't gotten up to "Lie to Me" yet. I assume that'll be on the third disc. I'll report back after having seen it.

Lucky me, the whole second season appears to be on Hulu. So I'm skipping "Reptile Boy" and "Halloween" and going straight to "Lie to Me." Then, unless there's advice here to the contrary, I'll just watch straight from "Lie to Me" till the end of the season ("Becoming - Part I + II).

Serious question from someone who's only seen four episodes:

In "Once More With Feeling," Xander and Anya sing a number in which they reveal misgivings about their relationship. But as far as I could tell, nowhere in the rest of the episode do they acknowledge said misgivings. And as a Buffy loyalist explained to me yesterday, they do not acknowledge any misgivings until one leaves the other (I can't remember which) at the altar later in the series.

So assuming I'm correct and that they don't, in fact, acknowledge any misgivings throughout the episode, then Whedon was using the musical number as a way to say what the rest of the narrative cannot (or does not), correct? Basically, Xander and Anya reveal their misgivings ONLY in the musical number and nowhere else. Is that correct?

I know this sounds ridiculously minor but, well, there ya have it.

I'll thank whoever answers in my own acknowledgments.

if i recall correctly, and i havent seen it in a while, the idea was that their feelings were so submerged, maybe even to themselves, they only came out accidentally in song.

OK that's what I figured. Thanx man!!!

Yeah, KGB, the whole point with all the characters in the musical is that they find themselves singing various misgivings and doubts that haven't really been acknowledged: Giles feeling like he has nothing left to do for Buffy, Tara being eclipsed by Willow's power, Xander and Anya's cold feet, etc. Hence the big payoff being when Buffy accidentally sings what she's been trying not to tell anyone: that when they resurrected her they actually pulled her out of heaven, where she was happy.

I'm kinda sick of Buffy because my wife watches the whole series a couple of times a year, but "The Body" (the episode where Buffy's mother dies) is really good.

I didn't watch Buffy until after it was all on DVD, but I really liked every season. I do think that things improved in that third season (although my memory is not totally clear on that).

A lot of people don't care for parts of the later seasons (especially the "Dawn" stuff) - but there was a lot I did enjoy. There's an episode where Buffy is invisible in Season 6 that is one of my favorites. Also, anything with Anya saying the totally tactless stuff that she says cracks me up.

Honestly, my favorite characters wound up being Spike and Anya by the end of it.

All of that being said, if you don't like the show or aren't attracted to the humor or whatever, there are lots of other good things out there to watch. Life's too short to spend watching hours of television that you don't even enjoy!

I am kinda not as huge on teen-drama Season Three as many people -- I'd probably say Four and Five together are the very best part of the show. The series "ending" in Five would have made such a perfect close.

^ OTM, though I do like a lot of seasons 6 & 7.

do we disdain the angel spinoff? i thought it had some good moments

Season 1 (to me) ls like the Guided by Voices boxset: I realize others will deem it a turd but I can't help liking it. I love the show in its entirety,flaws et al.

Angel was okay but in all honesty I'd never recommend it to someone who hasn't seen Buffy. It's for completists. I gave up after S3 I think. Can't even remember. It wasn't that bad, just, well, not that relevant. Or something.

I think the only good season of Angel was its last season, where it had a continuous run of some really great episodes. The show as a whole had some good episodes here and there, but it was maddeningly uneven and at times downright terrible.

I've only seen the first season of Angel. It was... okay. The one episode that stuck with me was the one where Buffy came to visit Angel and Angel gets to not be a vampire and then it all falls apart and he fixes it so that she can't remember. For whatever reason, the emotion of all that really got to me.

I'll probably watch the rest of the seasons eventually, but it's not at the top of my must-watch list.

Angel was spotty at best. Check out the episodes Hero, Five By Five, Disharmony, and Smile Time. The last season of Angel was better than the last season of Buffy.

Five by Five must have Faith in it?

angel ended up a much better show than buffy. seasons 3 and 5 are pound for pound more enjoyable than the best buffy runs. also, no dawn.

Ok, after the first two-parter in season 2, I figured out what Season 2 has that makes it far superior to Season 1: Spike and Druscilla. They make much more fun and better villains than that little kid. Makes all the difference.

Fourth season of Angel was the best. Had some crap parts (for once, the characters that turned evil became way less entertaining) but it was a hell of a lot of fun to watch as it was happening, since they made it into a really fast-paced serial, and every episode ended with the situation being radically different from where it was at the start.

The last third or so of season 3 was really good too. Basically, after Wesley talked to a giant hamburger, the show improved markedly.

i really want to "do" angel but there's so many eps, i'm not sure i want to watch all 22 of season 1 and 2 to get season3, nahmean?

is there a bluffer's guide? selected must-see episodes?

You could do what I do. Watch it on TNT at 6:00 AM. :P

ya but it's also pretty dark in a way that can be surprising

definitely. the angel-buffy stuff had real dramatic heft. and the episode where [SPOILER, I GUESS, IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT] her mom died was pretty wrenching. and some of the dark-willow bits were pretty grim.

xpost Mordy OTM about Spike and Drusilla. (Also I like to listen to the stuff Drusilla says because it's so over-the-top crazy. And because that actress looks someone I know).

She's Martin Landau's daughter.

Actually I guess she favors Barbara Bain more.

Tara being eclipsed by Willow's power

See that's what had me so confused. Xander and Anya reveal lots in their song but their relationship doesn't change whereas Tara and Willow reveal nothing in their song (as far as I could tell, it was just an expression of love) but their relationship does change in this episode. Maybe I misheard the Tara/Willow song?

Re: Tara and Willow (SPOILERS!!!!): It's more in the episode itself than in the song. Willow has been using magic on Tara to make her forget things and Tara wasn't aware of it. Tara had a bad experience with her mind being messed with by a demon in a previous episode, so this is even worse than it would be (how would you feel if your lover was messing with your mind?).

This all kicks off the whole Willow is addicted to magic arc, which then leads to Evil Willow stuff (if I'm remembering right).

slocki and nabisco otm, though i love season 3. season 5 is really great, and pretending critical distance, i can see how it would have been a great end to the series. also i have no critical distance from this show and am basically a 15 year old girl about it.

Angel had one of the best series finales ever.

buffy had one of the most letting-downing!

There was some touching stuff, though - Anya ;_;

It's more in the episode itself than in the song.

Exactly. Which means the songs don't all work the same way. Very disorienting for a newbie like me.

Anyhoo, thanx Sara R-C!

You're welcome! It makes more sense in the context of watching the series than in watching Once More, With Feeling alone.

That being said, I think the musical episode can stand on its own to some extent. I let my kids watch it (yes, I know; TERRIBLE MOMMYING), and they love it. Thankfully they miss some of the more risque implications of some of it... so far.

Xander and Anya definitely do hear each other's complaints from the song, though - when they're describing what happened to Giles they reference each other's lyrics.

So I'm skipping "Reptile Boy" and "Halloween" and going straight to "Lie to Me."

I think "Halloween" is one of the best episodes of the entire series, I would definitely not miss that one.

is there a bluffer's guide? selected must-see episodes?

Season 2 and the last bit of Season 4 are good, skip everything else.

Xander and Anya hear the complaints/fears, but they don't ever address them. I always interpreted this as fear, but it was one of many things that suggested that their relationship had serious problems.

Don't miss "Halloween!"

Season 2 and the last bit of Season 4 are good, skip everything else.

No one can agree on what the best ones are...

Just to be clear, I was talking about the good parts of Angel there.

I didn't mind Dawn so much. Now Conner on Angel, he was frigging insufferable, but maybe that was the point. I agree the last episode of Angel was among the best.

i thought the dawn plotline was kinda brilliant

esp the way she was introduced.

yeah that was handled well. and michelle trachtenberg was pretty lovable. (i don't watch gossip girl, so i don't know if she's good in anything else.)

not so great on Six Feet Under, but they didn't give that character much humanity

multi-xp - The second season of Angel is just waiting for me, so now I'm kind of excited to watch it. THX!

xxxp Michelle was great in Gossip Girl. She did brilliant stuff with being a total sociopath. But then again, I've had a soft spot for her ever since the Adventures of Pete and Pete.