Throwing bombs at school children

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Aside from the idiocy in Northern Ireland reaching a new low, I can't help but wonder - do people even know what they're fighting about anymore? Were I to ask a hardcore protestant what's wrong with catholicism, would I be likely to get a well-reasoned theological argument about the twin blasphemies of popery and transubstantiation? Or would I be taking my teeth home in a bag? And will this nonsense go on forever?

DG, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

[hello recent answers]

DG, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This question requires more thought than I have time for right now (short - no, most of them DON'T know what they're fighting about, they just get convinced that the "cause" is important to them, what their peer group is doing, etc etc and they rope themselves in on the basis of that - or even worse, on the basis of just liking to fight - and there is no longer a "cause"), but I do have a question: why do you all do that with the recent answers thing?

Ally, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The problem is that to people born before the troubles started, obviously they have known nothing else. Even worse is that because of the length of the troubles this is almost everyone. The trouble is so ingrained that it might just never stop, I would think. You can see it is ingrained by what happened today i.e. throwing bombs at catholic children just because they walked through a protestant area (or is it the over way around...it honestly doesn't seem to matter much...): how is this going to solve anything? The people doing this seem to just keep on going regardless...(hope this all makes sense, this subject has always rather bewildered me in its stupidity and the fact we can't do anything about it, to be honest).

Bill, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i don't think being Catholic or Protestant in itself has anything to do with it - is more the case that these Christian denominations mark out the Unionist/Republican groups.

m jemmeson, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Letter in Today's 'Irish Independent'(or maybe the 'Irish Times' I can't remember which) - "These people do not deserve peace. Fortunately, it seems unlikely they'll ever get it"

dave q, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

it's down to tribalism at this point, and it's pathetic. just barely above the level of chimps throwing shit at each other. or below.

your null fame, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Article makes depressing reading, all the more because unfortunately I think he's probably right. One of the symptoms of the abandonment of the state is the continued punishment beatings being meted out to suspected drug dealers/joy riders etc.

It's desperately depressing watching it because you think you've seen pretty much everything and then they find a new way to victimise and persecute each other.

Billy Dods, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's no longer anything to do with actual religion, nor has it been for a very long time. Biggest problem right now: teenage (and younger) kids getting into it, for a laugh. e.g. around the time of Drumcree last year, I had to leave work early because there were a load of 12 - 15 year olds throwing stones into the office and burning stuff in the road. They didn't care what was going on, they were just bored.

Stuff going on in Ardoyne/N. Belfast = hugely depressing, clearly an indication there will never be peace, bigotry still present - pointlessly - even worse, "casual" bigotry is prevalent throughout practically the whole fucking country.

I'm leaving on Sunday, and am looking forward to getting the fuck out of here immensely.

clive, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Theology doesn't really come into it DG. Its an ethnic/historic divide with deep roots going back 300+ years. Much of Belfast, especially the North, is a patchwork of predominantly Nationalist and Loyalist areas, with intense fear and loathing between them. The interfaces between these areas are frequently flash-points for disturbances.

Both sides feel themselves victims to violence commited by the other. Since the late '60s thousands of families in Belfast on both sides have been forced out of their homes due to being on the wrong side in the wrong area. Small enclaves are the most vulnerable, such as the loyalist Glenbryn area in the midst of nationalist Ardoyne where this is happening. They feel threatened, they frequently are threatened. This boils into anger which explodes in the ugliest ways.

None of which justifies the hideous sectarian violence and hatred of the past few days whatsoever. It is, though (imho) just a little too easy to condemn it from the outside without really understanding what it is like to live with such fear and division all around you, all the time.

stevo, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

But that's part of my point - without theology it's just endless recrimination for what Cromwell did in Drogheda or something pointless like that.

DG, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i can understand some things ( ie whatever the AMI or the black panthers do, although they never did much) but the balkans and ireland are beyond any comprehension.

anthony, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Nationalism,or really any kind of adhereance to a group identity, is evil. thats why I don't go to church or fourth of July Ralies. I even considered giving up liking baseball teams. As an individual we are everything. As part of a crowd we are so much less.

Mike Hanle y, Wednesday, 5 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Siege mentality = loss of rational thought powers, should be grounds for abdication of human privileges until sense prevails

dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Mary Holland + David McKittrick are two of Northern Ireland's better journalists. These articles are taken from todays Irish Times and the Independent.

Anarchy fills a political vacuum

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- By Mary Holland "Nobody can understand what is going on here. You and I can't understand it and the watching world looks on with disbelief."

This utterly baffled comment was made earlier this week by Jane Kennedy, junior minister at the Northern Ireland Office. Of all the thousands of words written and spoken about the standoff at the Holy Cross primary school in Ardoyne, these are some of the most depressing.

Ms Kennedy is responsible for security in Northern Ireland and, in the absence of the Secretary of State, appears to be the public face of the British government there. As an ugly situation threatens to spiral out of control, it is time for someone to explain to Ms Kennedy what is happening in north Belfast.

One of the first rules from the child's guide to Northern politics, dating from many years before the Belfast Agreement, is this: when the political process falters, violence moves in to fill the resulting vacuum. Things fall apart, etc.

The political process has been seen to stumble over and over again in recent months. The resignation of David Trimble as First Minister; the wrangling over paramilitary weapons and the IRA's "on again, off again" relationship with the De Chastelain commission; the failure of the UUP and Sinn Féin to endorse the new proposals for policing - all these factors have contributed to fears that the Good Friday agreement is going nowhere and that peace itself is at risk.

Some people would pose the question, "What peace?" They point to the ugly pattern of attacks on Catholic homes and businesses across the North, the flaunting displays of loyalist paramilitary strength on the Shankill Road. How would the two governments have reacted, they wonder, if the bomb planted at the Auld Lammas Fair in Ballycastle had exploded and resulted in carnage on a par with Omagh?

At the same time, the intimidation and punishment beatings doled out in the name of neighbourhood justice continue unabated. This is what happens when politicians back away from their responsibility to keep dialogue and negotiation alive, even in the most bleak circumstances.

In recent weeks only the SDLP, with its brave decision to support the new arrangements for policing, has shown the kind of leadership necessary to move the situation forward.

David Trimble has given a grave warning that the violence at the Holy Cross primary school could spread. At the same time, the UUP leader's response to the growing crisis is to hold talks with the Rev Ian Paisley to agree a strategy on policing.

Under pressure from his own anti-agreement refuseniks, he continues to balk at the one step which could provide a new basis for policing.

The republican movement, both wings, has problems of its own. The continuing violence against Catholics has made it much more difficult for the IRA to make any move on weapons. To do so would undermine its claim to be the sole defender of the nationalist community.

It's to the considerable credit of the republican leadership that it has managed to hold the line in areas like Ardoyne, when the IRA must have been under enormous pressure to retaliate in kind against loyalist attacks. The loyalist strategy has clearly been designed to tempt the IRA back to war, but that fact can't have made it any easier to restrain the activists at grass-roots level as yet another Catholic family has been forced out of its home.

That said, it is still depressing to listen to Martin McGuinness present such a partisan view of what has been happening in the Ardoyne. He is, of course, quite right to give comfort to the parents and children at the heart of the dispute. But as Minister of Education he might have served the cause of peaceful progress better if he had used his considerable clout to persuade them to follow the advice of the school's board of governors and use the less controversial back entrance.

I understand very well the objections that would have been made by some parents - no sneaking in by the back door, etc - but such a step could have helped to defuse the situation and avoid further unnecessary trauma for the children. In this context a word of praise for the police would not have gone amiss, though that is probably too much to hope for at present.

The awful clashes outside the Holy Cross school reflect a much wider problem. David Ervine has described them as "a cry for help from the loyalist community". There is no doubt that Protestants living in areas like north Belfast feel under siege, but the lack of leadership from their own politicians is one of the factors that makes them turn to sectarian confrontation. The pity is that such tactics, not for the first time, have led to a PR disaster which will exacerbate their sense of isolation.

By far the most pressing need in Northern Ireland now is for a return to real and visible politics. The events in Ardoyne have underlined, yet again, that the only alternative to dialgoue and negotiation is anarchy. Politicians in Northern Ireland have to be told, by both governments, that it is time to get back to work. Let us hope it will not take another Omagh to spur Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair into reasserting their commitment to the Good Friday agreement.

Heart of Darkness

Even seasoned observers have been shocked by the latest outbursts of sectarian hatred in Northern Ireland - not just because of their ferocity, but because the territorial issues at stake seem so petty. Yet there is an obscure logic to north Belfast's savage turf wars. David McKittrick offers a macabre guided tour

06 September 2001

The heroic struggle to stop small girls attending school The girls of Holy Cross primary school in the Ardoyne area of North Belfast are not the first four- and five-year-olds to have been thrust into the front line of Northern Ireland's long-simmering conflict.

Of all the places that have been scarred by the Troubles, North Belfast is the most violent, with well over 500 deaths to date. Many a child has been splashed with blood from their dying father after gunmen burst into their house and opened fire. Others have been on the streets while the army and IRA fought gun battles. Some were caught in crossfire; others have lost fathers or brothers. Even here, however, the violence is particularly concentrated in a few areas, notably Ardoyne.

Ardoyne

When children are out playing in the evenings, on their bicycles and their pink roller skates, parts of Catholic Ardoyne can look reasonably normal. But then the glimpse of a 20ft-high metal peace line serves as a reminder that on the other side of it is a hostile Protestant presence.

Even more striking is the sight, on the wall of an Ardoyne Sinn Fein office, of a long list of IRA members and civilians killed in the immediate vicinity. The wall does not, naturally enough, list those who have been victims of the IRA, but it gives a sense of how many members this community feels it has lost.

There are more than 120 names on the list, ranging from IRA members to old ladies killed by stray bullets during gun battles. This is a compact area: if a cross were set out at the scene of every death, the place would look like a war cemetery. In the worst of times, in the 1970s, a three-way war was fought out on these streets, involving the army, the IRA and the loyalists. People here typically know dozens of men who were killed, scores who went to jail. This is tough paramilitary territory. There is no pressure for decommissioning here: on the contrary, most local Catholics and Protestants want the IRA and the loyalist terrorists to hold on to their guns.

The Catholic parents and the protesting Protestants who are involved in the present dispute have all lived through three decades of conflict. They all grew up with troops on the streets, with violent deaths, with social deprivation, high unemployment and general alienation. They, too, were children who were exposed to repulsive violence. Some have coped with this extraordinarily well, but others have built up reservoirs of searing hatred. In the Ardoyne confrontation this is particularly evident on the Protestant side, where such inarticulate rage has given rise to behaviour that has shocked the world.

Beneath the bigotry lies an intense loyalist feeling of loss and defeat. One part of Ardoyne Road is bedecked with republican flags, while the other is smothered in red, white and blue and loyalist paramilitary emblems. Protestants can remember when there was far more red, white and blue and much less green, white and yellow. Catholic Ardoyne then was a nervous ghetto, surrounded by a sea of orange; today it is expanding, brash, assertive and demanding its rights.

This helps to explain why many Catholic parents now insist that their daughters should go to their school by the front door, and not by the longer route that takes them to a more discreet, and indeed safer, side entrance. That route, they insist, means going back to accepting second-class citizenship.

Today, it is the loyalists who see themselves as an embattled minority, endangered by the growing Ardoyne. Many Protestants have moved away, so that those remaining describe themselves as 1,000 Protestants facing 7,000 Ardoyne Catholics. The appalling behaviour of the protesters stems not just from bigotry, but from fear. The Catholics are taking over, they say; they are "getting in everywhere," they are forcing Protestants out. It is this sense that explains much of the violence in this and other parts of north Belfast over the summer.

Crumlin Road

Yet although this is the key to this year's outbreaks, it is only one part of a mosaic of reasons for violence in the area. A drive of a few hundred yards takes an observer down the Crumlin Road to another flank of Ardoyne, and to the exact point where the Troubles first flared in 1969.

An official report into that outbreak of violence concluded: "The classic communal pattern emerges starkly – the two communities exhibiting the same fears, the same distrust of lawful authority. Catholics and Protestants were haunted by the same ghosts."

At that spot things became so bad, with assassins darting across the Crumlin Road to kill with comparative ease, that the two sides and the authorities opted for complete segregation. At first this was achieved by walls of rusting corrugated iron. But in time these were replaced by what might be called "designer" peace lines, little mini- gardens constructed of tasteful brick, draped with creepers and climbing plants to camouflage their real, grim purpose.

Shankill

The Shankill district, to the south, is a real mess. The grimy remains of July bonfires are still scattered around, and many cramped Victorian houses still survive in the side-streets. It is a demoralised district, much reduced in size, much of the fierce, old pride gone.

The fact that some loyalist paramilitary warlords have taken to large- scale drug-dealing has sapped communal morale even further. Vicious feuding between rival groups has resulted in more than a dozen deaths in recent years. These lethal turf wars have subsided for the moment, but they led to local convulsions as people associated with the two main groups, the Ulster Defence Association and Ulster Volunteer Force, were forced to move home. The Shankill streets are festooned with loyalist flags, but today their function has changed: now their primary purpose is to proclaim which streets are to be regarded as the property of the UDA, and as a tacit warning to the UVF to keep out.

Further down towards the city are Crumlin Road prison and courthouse, buildings whose descent into disuse might paradoxically be seen as a sign of progress. The prison and the court, where hundreds of Ardoyne republicans and Shankill loyalists were locked up and convicted, are now closed and crumbling. Some of the yellow weeds sprouting through their railings and gates are now seven-feet high, testament to the fact that, for all its failings, the peace process has had its successes. Things may still be bad on the streets, but murders and murder trials are no longer a daily occurrence.

Almost right next door on the Crumlin Road is the Mater Hospital, where thousands of Troubles casualties were brought. In 1976, a killing took place within the hospital itself, when loyalists shot dead Maire Drumm of Sinn Fein in one of the wards.

Antrim Road

A further 100 yards down the road, a left turn brings another reminder of how much worse things used to be, for the nickname of this stretch of the Antrim Road was Murder Mile. The New Lodge Road, on the right, was the most dangerous street of them all, with at least 25 people dying there (mostly in the 1970s).

They included Gunner Robert Curtis, the first serving soldier to die, who was struck in the heart by a bullet from a Thompson sub-machine gun 30 years and seven months ago. Today, the soldiers have largely disappeared. So have the Protestants who used to live there: a one- time Protestant church, its parishioners gone, is now a furniture showroom.

Further along the Antrim Road, the scene becomes more middle class as Murder Mile is left behind. There are still some reminders of violence, however: it was here that the Catholic solicitor Pat Finucane was killed by loyalists. He was eating a Sunday meal with his wife and his three young children when the loyalists burst in and shot him 14 times.

This is a prosperous area, with leafy avenues and fine, big houses, some with splendid views over Belfast Lough. But here, too, the story is one of Protestant flight, for the Protestant middle classes have almost entirely upped and left, decamping to satellite towns such as Carrickfergus in County Antrim. There were no violent clashes, no ugly scenes in the streets: the Protestants simply collectively decided they did not like the way the neighbourhood was going. Their homes are now occupied by upwardly-mobile Catholics.

Glengormley

A couple of miles further out, the Antrim Road reaches the suburb of Glengormley. Catholic expansion has reached it, too, leading to violence there in patterns which can be traced with depressing precision.

It was a Protestant area, but the appearance of Catholic schools and various other premises began to change things. In 1975 a workman named Gerald Alphonsus De'ath was helping to build a Catholic school in High Town Road when he picked up a vacuum flask. It was booby- trapped and exploded, killing him instantly.

Just a month ago loyalists shot dead, close to the school, Gavin Brett, a Protestant teenager they mistakenly believed was a Catholic. Many Catholics live in Glengormley now, and more are moving in: the gunmen were expressing rage at this, and trying to stop the influx.

Such murders do not work, since although they cause much human misery, they never do succeed in reversing the religious trends. The growth of the north Belfast Catholics, and the draining away of Protestants, is irreversible.

Loyalists have also targeted the local Catholic church. The visitor who follows the sign for St Bernard's travels down a pleasant, winding lane, to find a school and a collection of outbuildings, together with two parking spots that are still marked "priest".

But St Bernard's is not there any more: where it stood there are now only small heaps of rubble, with a sign saying: "Dangerous building – keep out." The church was burnt to the ground.

Shore Road

Driving along Belfast Lough back to the city centre, the visitor passes through what is almost the last sizeable section of north Belfast under Protestant control, the Shore Road. The journey begins badly, with a burnt-out pub, and things do not improve.

There is a great deal of loyalist graffiti, with stretches of kerbstones hundreds of yards long painstakingly painted red, white and blue. The paint has been put on by heavily tattooed men and youths, who insist on tattooing not just themselves, but their districts as well.

These people see themselves as having their backs to the wall. Their politicians have delivered little or nothing to them, they feel; the peace process is just one-way traffic, benefiting only the republicans the and nationalists.

Their sense of loss is palpable, and so, too, is their sense of bafflement about what to do about it. Protestant-dominated Ulster is largely gone, certainly in north Belfast, and those diehards who refuse to move out think of themselves making a last stand, as in the Alamo.

Their problem is that they are prepared to resort, as they have at Holy Cross school, to methods which are almost guaranteed to repel the rest of the world, rather than to gain its sympathy.

After 30 years of the Troubles, they have yet to learn this lesson, and it is too late to learn it now. They are a lost people, mourning their lost status and their lost territory, and fighting for what looks increasingly like a lost cause.

stevo, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hey, i'd love to throw bombs at school children. you would too if you worked at a school. hey, do they have to be school children? why can't we just throw bombs at ANY children?

di, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)


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