Was Yoda right about hate and fear?

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Dave bought this up in the homophobia thread and its niggled at me since. Since time immemorial (or at least since the Empire Strikes Back) there has been this mantra that fear leads to hate (hate leads yto anger and that leads to the dark side...) Now while I'm not denying that there probably is a link between the fear of something and hatred of it, I certainly would not agree that hate = fear. Hence the problems of using "-phobia" as a suffix to actually mean hatred.

In my case there are people whom I hate who I do not fear. Discuss.

― Pete, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Thing is, if you're really scared of something you often respect it too much to hate it.

― Ronan, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i agree that homophobia is an awful term for hatred of homosexauls. I also think homosexaul is absurd . What term could be suggested to replace it .

― anthony, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Is gay offensive?

― Ronan, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Homophobia" would appear to mean, from the Greek, "fear of being the same". It's a fucking dreadful word.

― Sam, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Following the excellent logic of the above answer (though my Latin is non-existant so not sure how good said translation is) most people suffer from heterophobia - fear of being different. Especially homophobes....

― Pete, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't think new words will catch on, and anyway shouldn't we be like striving to diminish the influence of prejudices instead of creating new words to describe them. Thats my high moral stand of the day.

― Ronan, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

you'll pardon this pedantic correction but homophobia is not correctly translated that way .it's just two greek words "same" and "fear" put togheter and it came after the word homosexual so it can be translated with fear of homosexuals. I think the real problem is the fact that identity shouldn't be built on sexual preferences . homophobia is ,of course, shit but sometimes I feel that people who design their own lives on a given idea of gay lifestyles are perpetuating stereotypes built by conservative ideas of society.

― francesco, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i think you are confusing keychains and lumberjack shirts with anal sex, francesco

― mark s, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

All too easy.

― Sam, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

The central question everyone is avoiding - why is it assumed that it is impossible to have a passable understanding of (anything) and still have an intense dislike for it?

― dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

because knowledge is power, so what's the point?

― mark s, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Because if that is possible then its a negative reflection on humans in general, so noone wants to consider it.

― Ronan, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm not with you. I have a reasonable understanding of what Nazism was, and I don't like it.

― Sam, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Knowledge is power, true, but supposing you are gathering knowledge about something because you despise it and want to destroy it? (Like, for instance, the music business)

― dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Maybe the solution is to wear mirrored shades when looking into the abyss?

― dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oi, Dave, that's my project - leave it alone. After all - as has been pointed out to me before, I know a lot about music and I hate it. With a passion.

― Tanya, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This is where it gets odd, where do you draw the line between when it's right to make a judgement on something and wrong? Of course everyone here says Naziism is wrong, but does that mean someone being prejudiced about it would be ok? And of course everyone here says being prejudiced about homosexuality is wrong, but if someone knows enough about it and still despises it, its not prejudice anymore but something more than that. Are we assuming for the sake of common decency that the people who are racist, or homophobic etc, are misguided in some way just because we believe it to be morally wrong.

― Ronan, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dave q hates the music business because the brazen hussies are not better known than black flag (ie he doesn't want to destroy it at all, just reorganise it)

tanya hates the music business because she fears she cannot destroy it = her project comes to nought = she is gay i mean weak

― mark s, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ronan's last post reminds me of the likelihood that Louis Farrakhan and David Duke would rather hang out with each other than with most African-Americans or whites, respectively

― dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Not 'reorganise'. Try 're-make in my own totalitarian image', more like.

― dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Okay, why not push the question further. Is there anyone you hate, an individual not a group (no need to name names). Is this a reasoned, rational hatred or irrational dislike. Because in my experience the people who I hate (and there are a few) I have perfectly good reasons to do so. Hence hate does not equal irrational dislike.

― Pete, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I only truly hate two people in this world, although I think that I do use the word too much. But they both deserve it yes, in spades, I'll dance when they die, that sort of thing.

― cabbage, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Intense floods of loathing are released in my brain when people are overly concerned with their own welfare, i.e. as opposed to my own. The fact that I can sometimes come up with rational excuses for this should worry me. But worry = fear, so I try not to reflect on it much.

― dave q, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't hate anyone.

― Nick, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

To my great surprise I have gone through my list of people I don't like and found that I don't hate anyone right now. I have done in the past though.

― Emma, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I have intense irritation towards several people. I wouldn't say I hate them though. I've decided they best way of coping with this is just to AVOID social situations where I know I would bump into them and I'd just find myself malingering over them.

The people who I would use the word hate for do/b> deserve it. A problem situation is when you're friends with someone who is also friends with someone you have good reasons for hating. I try not to let that be a judgement on them but I DO think it affects the way you think about them.

In general though, I'm more affected when I find myself with absolutely NOTHING to say to certain people and then resent having to be with them in the first place, grr argh.

― Sarah, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Bah.

― Sarah, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I thought I was potentially a very angry vengeful person. But, on trying to think of who I hate, the answer is no one. I dislike people, but not with any passion. Don't really fear anyone. To use the old mantra: it's all good.

― jel, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't really hate anyone, I think its because I'm healthily irritated by enough people that I let it out at controllable levels.

― Ronan, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hatred of [x] does not mean fear of [x]: it v.often means eg fear of some aspect of yrself you discern in [x] and want to distance yrself from

(i'm tempted to go all convolute and aphoristic and say ALL HATE = homophobia IF homophobia = fear of secretly being the same, or wanting the same, or wanting to be the same)

― mark s, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

dunno if he was right or left, but did anyone else notice how similar yoda sounds to the dalai lama?

― Geoff, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I ate Nick's ability to hate.

― Mike Hanle y, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

There are states of mind that I would gladly destroy. I would demolish them in an orgy of destruction that would echo unto the outer spheres. I would if it could be shown to be true sacrifice myself *to* destroy them because then the amount of human misery and horror would be so appreciably lessened.

But I can't hate people per se. And I can't destroy states of mind.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Isn't it all a pseudy way of getting your own back though? You hate me = you fear me. It's one of those weak arguments, like when people gibber about how the strongest homophobes are probably gay themselves. No, they probably mean it, are straight and are not very nice people.

― DG, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

mark s- I’ m not confusing sartorial choices with sexual preferences .The word “ homosexual” in a way or another springs out of the objectification of the use of someone’s body . same sex intercourses are transformed into a global essence . which is the degree of violence required to turn a passionate ,if not brutal, lover turn into a “sadist”? in which way the word “homosexual” is useful in describing individual tastes in fact of sex? Isn’t this mania of creating catalogues of sexual orientations giving a static and eternal nuance to personal and always evolving flux of experiences,and what would say michel foucalt about words used for the first time in clinical reports of “perversion” ? don’t get me wrong , of course, some words are making our life easier but some doubt still remains . Ps did some nights with an older french woman make me a “gerontofrancophile”? (sorry for this)

― francesco, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

weeeell: how willing are you francesco to give up using the words "french", "older" and "woman" on the the grounds that they merely objectify and limit when all should be flux and personal choice? i am inclined to agree with you abt the unhelpfulness iof political identity based purely on sex acts, but i also think that is mostly imposed not chosen: once imposed, solidarity and political effectivness is not going to forthcoming if tere a bunch over here saying "Ah! Well!! No: actually, no, I *never* put that there!! So yes you can throw stones at the queers!! I'm a bender, don't you know, that's completely a different fing." (eg mark s = queer but not gay: yes I cd defend this distinction, but who carez so what? It's just self-centred preening...) Sometimes it's better to take an outsider-imposed stereotype and make it work for you instead of against you, cuz what you actually want to do is contained small inside it. And, yeah, sometimes it's a pain in the neck: no I do not clusterfuck in saunas or shave my head or enjoy mardi gras... Yes I like chartpop, but that's because it's grate, not because I get off on cock half the time.

― mark s, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

DG: pseudy no doubt, else why wd I want in, but why weak? Fact: everyone at some time in their lives has some homo impulses. No one cares abt homophobes who sit at home hating but do nothing and say nothing: what is it tips hate over into something where Action Has To Be Taken?

i. Bullying can be fun, yeah, but where's that learnt? Hardcore abusers are recruited from the ranks of the abused.
ii. You react when your space is threatened.

― mark s, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I see your point & didn't want to be offensive in any way as I said words we use contain (in various degrees) structural limits and hide a work of identity construction that can be dangerous if such words are not used for nominal purpose. basically I agree with what you said bout using these social costructions .

― francesco, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

This hot potato of a question:

why is it assumed that it is impossible to have a passable understanding of (anything) and still have an intense dislike for it?

-- which also kind of showed up on the homophobia thread, still hasn't really been tackled. There are pretty heavy-duty implications for discussion of, for instance, the distinction, if any, between racism and distaste for a particular culture; the former is always abhorrent, but what about the latter?

My own intuitive feeling is that anyone who insists on complete cultural relativism and nonjudgmentalism (or that anticulturism = racism) will quickly find themselves painted into a corner if they also hold that, for instance, female circumcision is a bad idea. One reply might be "Yes, but that's a particular practice, not a culture." But it's certainly possible for a culture to be thoroughly saturated with practices such as these that a modern (!) mind might find abhorrent, and in such a case the distinction between disliking a culture, and disliking a tremendous number of its characteristic practices, grows pretty vague.

And I guess this is the big bomb I want to drop: someone who critiques, say, WASP culture, can flog it ad infinitum and will seldom if ever be accused of racism -- and rare will be the person who challenges their depth of understanding of WASP culture. Yet a person of similar understanding who launches a similar critique of African-American culture will likely be branded a bigot or a race-baiter. Why? What's the theoretical difference? Is it possible for a Caucasian to attack African-American culture without being a racist? What about an African-American attacking African-American culture? What about a Caucasian raised in an African-American environment by African-Americans (hi, Steve Martin)? What about an African-American raised by Caucasians?

― Phil, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You hate me = you fear me. It's one of those weak arguments...
Weak because it's impossible to prove, it's just nicely snide and it sounds good.

― DG, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I dunno, I think fear = hate but it takes a while to understand it, really. Like, what do you hate, and I mean HATE literally, not figuratively...? No, hating broccolli is not out of fear. Hating stupid people, for instance, is kind of a roundabout from fear. Like, usually, when you hate people you consider "stupid", you're thinking of a certain stereotype of person. You don't usually hate an actual retarded person born with abnormally low intelligence. You hate ignorant people who are content to remain ignorant and even fight to protect their ignorance. You HATE people like this because they are the cause of so many problems. These problems caused by people like this create the environment, however far removed from reality, of FEAR. If every person was as ignorant as members of the KKK, you'd have a bunch of people hanging lots of people, right? And that's a fearful state. The extreme rejection of this is hatred for those who are so ultimately opposite your principles.

What else do you hate? Do you HATE the people who are lazy, slow and inconsiderate? That's because you know that these are the people who are the opposite of what you think is best; you think it's best that everyone do their part and respect others in society so that we can all get along smoothly and peacefully. There's a deep-rooted fear linked with stress involved here that has you playing by these unwritten "rules" while everyone else flouts the "rules", leaving you to toil and make up the slack yourself and this is unpleasant. You fear stress because it is unpleasant. This is what panic attacks are- a fear of being afraid. Once you've experienced a panic attack, the other panic attacks are often brought on simply by being afraid you're going to have another one.

Aggression is related to survival and survival is ruled by fight or flight: two FEAR responses.

― Nude SPock, Thursday, 6 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Spock - struck a nerve when you mentioned hatred of Type Z personalities. 'Lazy, slow, inconsiderate' people aggravate me to the point where I genuinely hate them - which I define by questioning their right to an existence and wondering if they'd be better off dead, etc. Lately this has extended to hypochondriacs, passive- aggressive people and anybody who isn't very verbally articulate as well. (I've developed the unlovely habit of barking "Speak up goddammit!" to anyone who murmurs or mumbles and doesn't put their thoughts together in crystal-clear manner before speaking, which is pretty hypocritical coming from somebody who smokes as much pot as I do.)
However, is it the 'stress' thing really? In my experience, Type Z people spend their whole lives trying to AVOID stress - leading coddled lives where they try and shut out thinking of other people's needs (which might conflict with their own), hence the 'inconsiderate' factor. Type Z personalities prioritise stress- avoidance over everything - and in a grotesque symbiotic loop, it just makes me want to overload them with stress even more.

― dave q, Friday, 7 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah, I was trying to say that lazy people give OTHER people stress by not doing what they are "supposed to" and adding to the general "ya gotta do everything yourself if ya want it done right" atmosphere of the world, which goes along with "ya can't trust anybody but yourself", which goes along with "me vs. them". ,p>Now, keep in mind, we are all hypocrites and when we are having one of OUR lazy days and somebody gets miffed at us, tries to rush us or tells us we're not performing up to par, we think, "Hey, fuck you, man. Give me a break."

― Nude Spock, Friday, 7 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Right, but the Type Zs are generally MORE fearful than anybody else. Everyone I know who's been a pathetic, lazy idiot has also been very unhappy and worried about minor things. And I'm here to make them even more miserable.

― dave q, Friday, 7 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

...and they'll take it out on their kids. They are passive aggressive due to these "minor" fears, which you are not understanding of, and you simply make their life worse by acting outwardly aggressive toward them. Passive aggressive is relatively close to hate, I think, and I think passive aggression is better than outright aggression. One of them is simply snubbing people you feel treat you unfairly, the other is the sort that causes physical harm.

― Nude Spock, Friday, 7 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Fears of what, though? Stubbing their toe on the way to the fridge to get yet another beer? And if people are terrified of life, then what are they doing having kids anyway?

Alright, I'll cop to being a bit harsher than necessary at times. But inertia assumes a tremendous momentum on its own, and if such people are left to their own devices, they'll resent you anyway for letting them fuck up. If you're going to be somebody's hate figure, you might as well get maximum sadistic fun out of it.

― dave q, Friday, 7 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

People are afraid of all sorts of things, especially what others will think of them or do to them. *points finger*... Who are you to judge a person?

― Nude Spock, Friday, 7 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

People can be afraid of anything they want, until they stiff me for the electric bill after getting fired because they "were unable to go to work because of...y'know, harsh stuff...I just felt kind of, y'know...got any dope?"

― dave q, Friday, 7 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah... I hear ya! Believe me, I do!

― Nude Spock, Friday, 7 September 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

nine years pass...

http://www.izismile.com/img/img3/20100831/640/star_wars_photos_640_84.jpg

― british sb power (dayo), Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:42 (fourteen years ago)

Yoda you dickpod

― coffeetripperspillerslyricmakeruppers (Latham Green), Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:44 (fourteen years ago)

homosexaul ?

― Mark G, Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:45 (fourteen years ago)

There is is, the kid of Ruth Gordon & Bud Cort.

― free inappropriate education (Abbbottt), Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:45 (fourteen years ago)

irl lol

― british sb power (dayo), Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:48 (fourteen years ago)

"Youda you never taught me about sex!"
"A Jedi has no need for these things"
"fuck that!"
X_wing takes off

― coffeetripperspillerslyricmakeruppers (Latham Green), Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:57 (fourteen years ago)

always u wrestle inside of me

― am0n, Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:57 (fourteen years ago)

nice shoes

― wtf is wrong with people? (snoball), Thursday, 16 June 2011 15:59 (fourteen years ago)

pitching a tent

― am0n, Thursday, 16 June 2011 16:00 (fourteen years ago)

The power of the force can raise even this 1000 year old boner

― coffeetripperspillerslyricmakeruppers (Latham Green), Thursday, 16 June 2011 16:10 (fourteen years ago)

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