Joining the Armed Forces

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There's a lot of people that say that, as an Australian, I should be supporting "our men" in Iraq.

I think that's bollocks. I mean, while I don't wish them any harm whatsoever, I wholeheartedly condemn them for joining the army in the first place. When you join the armed forces, you're effectively agreeing to kill people if you're told to do so. I think anyone that can do this with a clear conscience is morally corrupt.

Thoughts?

― Andrew (enneff), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Here's a thought - if they wanna do it let them, it keeps them out of the jails.

― smee (smee), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:05 (twenty-two years ago)

no one is innocent

― dave q, Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:06 (twenty-two years ago)

You're taking a moral absolutist position, which is of course, your right. But moral absolutes are generally fairly difficult to defend. There are so many what ifs. In the present case it may be pretty easy to defend because of the vagueness/absence of any justification to be in Iraq, but in general, you're able to take the position you do because there are so many people willing to die to defend your right to do that. So you don't have to.

― Skottie, Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, god damn it, everyone should just take my position and there'd be no war.

― Andrew (enneff), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Or, there should be clauses in joining the armed forces which allow someone to specify that they'll only fight in direct defence of their own country or an allied country. That, I feel, is justified.

― Andrew (enneff), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:09 (twenty-two years ago)

He slips..

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

that isn't how the military works. signing up means you waive that right to have your conscience determine your actions. you must follow orders or you will be disciplined - it's like a breach of contract, if you want to look at it that way.

and yes, ideally everyone should just take your position and there would be no war. but war, as we know, is like glaciers, hey?

― pete b. (pete b.), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:14 (twenty-two years ago)

aye, cold.

― g-kit (g-kit), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:15 (twenty-two years ago)

signing up means you waive that right to have your conscience determine your actions

and yet... 'I was just following orders' does not absolve you from conviction for war crimes.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:15 (twenty-two years ago)

"Well, god damn it, everyone should just take my position and there'd be no war"

No, we'd all be dead coz mad evil dictators would bomb us & shit, coz that's what they do innit?

Seriously though, we need those mad folk who believe it's a brave and honourable thing to die for your country etc etc

― smee (smee), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

to specify that they'll only fight in direct defence of their own country or an allied country.

:-)

Definitely. Unfortunately, GW Bush would agree with you! Invading Iraq is defending Australia directly! Don't ask me how! This is the whole problem.

I think that people join the military for all kinds of reasons, last of which is with the expectation they'll actually have to kill anyone. But it always can come to that.

I don't even know how I feel about this question. But I do know the whole situation is making me really sad.

― Skottie, Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:17 (twenty-two years ago)

signing up means you waive that right to have your conscience determine your actions

and yet... 'I was just following orders' does not absolve you from conviction for war crimes.

yup, the army's a bummer kids, don't do it.

― pete b. (pete b.), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

hang on though, you waive the right to have your conscience determine your actions if you want to remain part of the army, that does not necessarily mean that you should be absolved from war crimes for saying you were only following orders.

― Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:27 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh no - not that old chestnut, my and the boyf had a huge row about that one the other day!
It's a tough one coz if you're a soldier you are basically programmed to obey orders without question, but if it's totally morally wrong what do you do? If you object you'd have to go AWOL or face punishment and in a war type situation where do you go for help?

― smee (smee), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Well from a purely pragmatic point of view judge the likelyhood of being prosecuted for way crimes (low) against the probability of being court martialed (higher), and the relatively punishments.

If you don't want to fight in an unjust war, shoot yourself in the foot. There are plenty ways out of fighting. Read Catch 22.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

This has come up on other threads and I've already laid out my dad's position and how he had to wrestle with the moral qualms. To summarize -- thinking that those who join don't engage with any sort of concern or worry over the ethics of their duty is a patently false assumption. Some will find it easier than others, some will continue thinking about it until the day they leave the service and long after. There is no hard and fast answer here.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 3 April 2003 11:58 (twenty-two years ago)

aren't war 'ethics' are usually devised by whoever won the last one?

― dave q, Thursday, 3 April 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

What if you're a medic?

― hstencil, Thursday, 3 April 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

All the kids I knew in high school who joined the military did so because their grades were mediocre, their families didn't have much money anyway, and they had nothing else planned for their lives. Joining up gained them a lot of respect from their parents and others. They all said as much.

― Sarah McLusky (coco), Thursday, 3 April 2003 15:25 (twenty-two years ago)

In the british armed forces you can apply to concienciously object to any deployment. You can't disobey orders in battle but you can say you won't allow yourself to be deployed for a particular war.

― Ed (dali), Thursday, 3 April 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

In that case, I have a complete lack of respect for all British soldiers involved in the present situation in Iraq.

― Andrew (enneff), Friday, 4 April 2003 15:08 (twenty-two years ago)

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