So, peaceniks, I bet when you saw those pictures of utter jubilation in Baghdad, your heart sank didn’t it? Because, say what weasel words you like, those pictures alone utterly vindicated this liberation and completely rendered the sorry ‘Stop The War’ protests, an embarrassing failure.
This is the news: In Baghdad Iraqis cheered, threw flowers and kissed their liberators and thousands, virtually the whole city - not just a small part, we now know - went onto the streets and gave vent to their hatred for Saddam; defaced and burnt his pictures, toppled his statues. In Northern Iraq people even waved American flags and kissed pictures of Bush (so much for their supposed anti-US feelings). There is no doubting the ecstatic reaction of the Iraqi’s as they got their first taste of freedom, it was exquisite, absolutely exquisite.
And what of the ludicrous ‘rivers of blood’-esque bleatings of the anti-war movement we’ve had to put up with the past few months? Their hysterical rants - which put the The Daily Mail in the shade for going-to-hell-in-a-hand-cart worst-case-scenario alarmism - have ALL been proven to be complete and utter nonsense.They said, again and again, that ‘tens of thousands’ of innocent people, mostly women and children, would die in the massive onslaught of bomb happy Americans. It didn’t happen - DID IT? - the death toll for Iraqi’s is just over one thousand - and those are Iraqi [ex]government figures.They said, again and again, the troops would get bogged down in months and months of fighting. Try three weeks. THREE. WEEKS.They said, again and again, thousands of coalition troops would be coming home in body-bags as a result of such fighting.Try under 50 (most through friendly-fire. Natch).They said, again and again, that Baghdad would be flattened without mercy by MOABs. It didn’t happen - DID IT? - instead government buildings were hit with precision, gutting them, not destroying them. They said, again and again, that there would be NO WELCOME from the people of Baghdad, that they would take up arms against the “invaders” (as Saddam and the ‘peaceniks’ - in cahoots as usual - called them) out of some sort of civic pride and Baghdad would turn into a Stalingrad-like bloody conflict.It didn’t happen - DID IT? - what happened was the US troops drove into the city centre without a single shot fired, and were welcomed with jubilation.They said, again and again, that “Saddam is a bad man buuuuut... actually it’s Dubya that’s the real villain. Saddam is bad buuuuuut... actually it’s actually all about oil actually, and everyone knows that actually. I read it in the Gaurarudian. Must be true”
Great scenes: Iraqi’s dragging the head of Saddam’s bronze statue thorough the streets, one person riding on it; a man standing in a street in central Baghdad, whacking the huge poster of Saddam he was holding with his shoe, shouting anti-Saddam invective; the looters making off with riches that were for decades denied them, including the kind of gaudy urns that Michael Jackson favours - but don’t call it looting, call it distribution of wealth. For now it’s fine, order will come in good time. Best of all: one of the first places in Baghdad that was targeted was a UN building - priceless! Genius! Was it coincidence? I doubt it, no fools the Iraqis, I think they knew exactly what they were doing. Brilliant stuff.And news of protestors on the streets of London today as well - except these weren’t the middle-class dupes of the ‘Stop the War’ brigade, instead they were exiled Iraqis “taking” the Iraqi embassy as a protest against their [old] regime (no sign of any speccy students with placards though. Funny that).
Soon enough the doors to Saddam’s torture prisons and rape rooms will be thrown open, the weapons hidden under mosques dug out and the secrets of his immense brutality will be finally revealed. In fact it’s already started, ITN had a report last night with Iraqis, desperate to tell the world at last, leading the reporter around one prison - dungeon I’d call it - where they or their relatives had been tortured and kept, one telling the reporter he was locked in a miniscule cell for eight years because he - and I quote - “prayed too much” and was therefore seen as a subversive. Others acted out just how prisoners would be beaten and cruelly tortured during interrogation. Tip of the ice-burg stuff, I fear.The pictures of those innocent people, children in particular, injured in the bombing (mainly thanks to Saddam’s habit of placing targets in civilian areas - and, by the by, anyone see that militia man using a child as his personal shield during one fire-fight? ) and the footage of Ali, the little boy who not only had lost his family but both his arms in a raid, was particularly heart-breaking. A horrendous tragedy. He is though, at the very very least, alive. He is being looked after, he will be flown to London and taken care of. He will survive. His story will be heard.I just wonder if the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands not just injured in an accident but deliberately murdered during the Saddam years will have their stories heard? The children - not just men and women, children - imprisoned without trial, tortured to death in front of their families, women raped in front of their families, men being thrown alive into plastic-shredding machines, men and women and children hung up on meathooks in a ware(/slaughter)house and beaten, electrocuted and left to slowly die in agony... will GMTV or The Daily Mirror be telling their stories soon? Probably not, but hopefully someone will.
The ‘Stop The War’ movement - what’s left of it - has had the stench of failure for weeks and is now merely laughable. The support for it in Britain has utterly collapsed. A poll in the peaceniks precious Guardian at the start of the week had those still opposed to war at 29% (s’funny, the protestors were repeatedly bellowing that “virtually everyone in the country” is against the war just last month. Huh, and they say that Saddam’s Minister For Information came out with dubious statistics - he’s got nothing on these delusional dopes) I’m guessing that figure has dropped even further now.That won’t deter the hardcore on the marches (the skivers and the under-tens that filled their ranks probably aren’t going to be bothered with it much more), they will grimace at pictures of liberation and attempt to carry on their meritless protest and their lost argument. They claim to have the moral high-ground and to be against war, but it comes apparently obvious when viewing the marches in various countries that the truth behind them is wholly different. Amongst other things I have seen with my own eyes in these mobs a variety of agendas: anti-Semitism, pro-Stalinism, pro-Saddamism and, at the very core of each and every march, at the heart of each and every protestor, the one thing that unites them all: a near-fanatical, hysterical anti-Americanism. It has the leftist middle-class in Britain and the self-loathing anglophile American in a vice-like grip to such an extent that they are now even giving tacit support to the genocidal maniac Saddam Hussein and his tyrannical fascist regime. Nothing, it seems, can make them come to their senses. Not even, perhaps, a joyful liberation of an oppressed people.This is a massive failure of the left in the west, who, as a result of having no moral compass, have become an irrelevance. Shame.
Very, very difficult days ahead, yes. But, what is now beyond argument is:If it was up to the protestors Saddam would still be in power right now and for a long, long time to come. There was NO OTHER WAY to topple his regime, the protestors have certainly failed to come up with any viable alternative, except to ask for endless, pointless resolutions and endless, pointless 'inspections'. The peaceniks were wrong and have been proved wrong. Iraq is without Saddam Hussein.Less than three weeks after this ‘war’ started I’d say: that’ll do.
― DavidM (DavidM), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)
What's that?
"Not In My Name"
Oh dear...
― DavidM (DavidM), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)
Damn, I knew my aversion to cable news networks would come back to haunt me someday.
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)
They died for a good cause, though, of course. Stamping out Al Qaeda WMD international law.
― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)
if it was up to the protestors, saddam would never have been in power in the first place.
― Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)
― Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)
Let's burn the face of every coalition death/injury into our memory as individuals.
No.
How do you think the kid who lost his parents and his arms feels? Why don't you LOOK at him? Really. Look at him and notice that annoying fact; he lives, breathes, feels and is an individual.
Did all those pictures of tanks and guns make you really hard?
I thought so!
― ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)
Some Republicans in Congress are clamoring for the Patriot Act to be made permanent. I suggest everyone research their reps' and senators' positions on this, and WRITE LETTERS. It's important.
― hstencil, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)
Are you conflating communism with Stalinism?
― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)
I will be marching on saturday, against the on going war and against coming wars.
― Ed (dali), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)
― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)
― Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)
Pretty much no one -- anywhere, ever -- has expressed much doubt that countless Iraqi people will be incredibly relieved to be rid of Hussein. Here's your fifteen minutes of relief, kid: here are your flowers, here are your celebrations, here's your sweaty bridal-suite afterglow. As it turns out, though, it was a shotgun marriage -- the bride was pretty reluctant about it! -- and the groom doesn't have much of a clue what they're even going to do when the honeymoon's over, apart from going through his new wife's purse when she's not looking.
Tomorrow morning, as it happens, the two of them may find themselves standing in line in a noisy airport getting on each other's nerves something fierce. And when the groom starts beating the bride and she starts clawing at his eyeballs, why do I get the feeling you won't be here to post "warniks: think maybe the marriage was a bad idea in the first place?"
― nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:50 (twenty-two years ago)
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)
Accurately.
― Lord Byron Lived Here, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)
― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)
― Alan Conceicao, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)
Not that its a big point, but official casualties are at 132 and will probably grow to at least 200 when its all counted up.
― fletrejet, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)
― Millar (Millar), Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)
So we didn't kill as many people as we might have. Wow. What a great waw this was. Is that what you wanted us poor misguided liberals to say?
Well, fuck that noise. I wouldn't get so excited yet.
― justin s., Thursday, 10 April 2003 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)
WAR'S PRACTICALLY OVER
EVERYBODY GET PISSED OFF
― Millar (Millar), Thursday, 10 April 2003 01:30 (twenty-two years ago)
yeah that's it. It's ok: just a little funny
― A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 10 April 2003 02:34 (twenty-two years ago)
― Prude (Prude), Thursday, 10 April 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 05:35 (twenty-two years ago)
― Colin Meeder (Mert), Thursday, 10 April 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)
― Bingo, Thursday, 10 April 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)
Fine, if you're going to be an empire, do what the Romans did -- make every colonial dependent a Roman citizen.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 09:58 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:09 (twenty-two years ago)
George W. Bush, speaking at West Point about his 'new thinking': "By confronting evil and lawless regimes, we do not create a problem, we reveal a problem."
The problems this one sentence 'reveal' to me are:
1. It's not 'new thinking', it's old imperialism come back way after its sell-by date.2. 'Evil'. What does that mean, exactly? Somebody who thinks differently from you?3. 'Lawless regimes'. You mean regimes who break their own law? Who break international law? Who break away from imperial powers? You mean what King George had in mind when he looked at the fledgling US republic?4. By attacking other countries, you do indeed create problems.5. It is in your interest as a rightist to create (or 'reveal') new enemies and basically tramp up a tizzy in the wasp's nest. As long as you can impose draconian and repressive measures at home and abroad, who cares if a few people get stung?6. (Meanwhile, despite dismal economic performance, widening gap between rich and poor, plummeting educational standards, new diseases, etc, you probably get re-elected.)7. Why not sell some new dictator arms then accuse him of having arms, then have your son invade?8. God is on your side.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:38 (twenty-two years ago)
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)
I think that extension of citizenship didn't even encompass all of the Italian peninsular.
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:41 (twenty-two years ago)
Saul -- later St Paul -- was a Jew from Tarsus, in modern-day Turkey. Yet he had Roman citizenship. When a centurion commanded Paul ?to be examined by scourging,? he famously said 'Civis Romnus sum; Is it lawful for you to scourge a Roman citizen, and uncondemned?'
(1) No Roman citizen could be condemned unheard; (2) by the Valerian Law he could not be bound; (3) by the Sempronian Law it was forbidden to scourge him, or to beat him with rods.
Now imagine if Afghans had been made American citizens when the US took over there, or if Iraqis were now being given citizenship rights. Who would they vote for, come 2004, in the US? Surely by dying in large numbers, giving up their Iraqi sovereignty and throwing their hats, veils etc in the air, they have earned the right to US citizenship?
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:54 (twenty-two years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)
― Bingo, Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)
http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war23.html
― geeta (geeta), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)
― Fuzzy (Fuzzy), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)
52% of US public believes invasion of Canada justified.37% believes it would only be justified if Tony Blair joined in.3% believe it cannot be justified in any circumstances.8% don't know.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)
77% are bored10% are concerned but not doing anything about it8% are really concerned but not doing anything about it4% don't know1% you are an asshole
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:44 (twenty-two years ago)
Canadians have a shifty look.
There are probably Al Quaeda terrorist 'sleeper cells' in Canada.
Canada has a significant muslim population.
Canada lies a little too close for comfort to the US border.
Canadians would be better off as US citizens.
There is a wealth of unexplored mineral riches in northern Canada.
The Canadian government has been 'playing games' to protect its interests.
Our patience with Canada will shortly be at an end.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:46 (twenty-two years ago)
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil, Thursday, 10 April 2003 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)
― Bingo, Thursday, 10 April 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)
― hstencil, Thursday, 10 April 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)
― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)
― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)
― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)
― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)
― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)
― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)
― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)
― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)
― James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)
It doesn't take a giant leap of the imagination.
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)
― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)
You don't need that equivalence, which you can't make anyway because they are two different things, that's like trying to say these apples are fish. I think citizenship is a slight red herring. Citizenship would entail all of the trappings of empire; a civil service, security forces etc.
You're reading far too much in momus's postings.
― Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)
Au contraire, my drearies, I'm arguing that if they are to be made imperial dependents, at least let them civilise the host empire by swelling the ranks of its Democratic Party voters, as they surely would. I think they would probably have a much better political grasp than the average American voter, having been on the cutting edge of foreign policy and tasting at first hand such trendy concepts as 'pre-emption'. The net result would be less, not more, chaos 'in the belly of the eagle'.
But since I know such a thing will never happen -- because America wants their oil and not their dangling chads -- my proposal remains a modest one (as modest as the pre-elected Bush said his foreign policy was going to be), a mere exercise in imagineering.
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)
Bit of a strange assumption there about party affiliation, Momus.
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)
(Momus, could we please starting with giving the vote to the citizens of Washington, D.C. before we start extending it into Asia?)
― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)
― nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)
― Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)
― Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)
ahh...
― RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)
http://blog.kynn.com/shock/graphics/statuekilling0.jpg
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)
― Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)
― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)
― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)
― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)
― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)
― lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)
― oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)
― Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 11 April 2003 08:46 (twenty-two years ago)
― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)
― Ed (dali), Friday, 11 April 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)
― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)
― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)
― dave quisling, Friday, 11 April 2003 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)
oh lord, not this shit...
― oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)
(a) Before the first gulf war, no major Islamic terrorist group went out of its way to target American civilians, and none even dreamed of bringing terrorism onto American soil. (See: Hamas, Hezbollah.)
(b) The Sauds' cooperation with the U.S. in the first gulf war, and especially the stationing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, are Al Qaeda's biggest beef with the U.S.
(c) Al Qaeda has been the most successful terrorist group in attacking U.S. outposts and bringing terrorism to the U.S. -- and the people who've accomplished this are mostly Saudis.
You can make a lot of arguments that that's not justified (obviously), but you can't really claim that terrorism's focusing on the U.S. hasn't been triggered -- right or wrong -- by these things.
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)
― oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)
I did just think you and Dave swooped too harshly on that comment: in proximate terms it's pretty much true, that you can definitely argue that it's not a useful analysis. (Or argue, as the administration does, that it was too little Pax Americana that allowed those things to happen, not too much.)
― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)
― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 11 April 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)
― oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)
― dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)