War is 'Over' (if you want it) - (do not read if you hate liberation)

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Free at last, free at last...

So, peaceniks, I bet when you saw those pictures of utter jubilation in Baghdad, your heart sank didn’t it? Because, say what weasel words you like, those pictures alone utterly vindicated this liberation and completely rendered the sorry ‘Stop The War’ protests, an embarrassing failure.

This is the news: In Baghdad Iraqis cheered, threw flowers and kissed their liberators and thousands, virtually the whole city - not just a small part, we now know - went onto the streets and gave vent to their hatred for Saddam; defaced and burnt his pictures, toppled his statues. In Northern Iraq people even waved American flags and kissed pictures of Bush (so much for their supposed anti-US feelings). There is no doubting the ecstatic reaction of the Iraqi’s as they got their first taste of freedom, it was exquisite, absolutely exquisite.

And what of the ludicrous ‘rivers of blood’-esque bleatings of the anti-war movement we’ve had to put up with the past few months? Their hysterical rants - which put the The Daily Mail in the shade for going-to-hell-in-a-hand-cart worst-case-scenario alarmism - have ALL been proven to be complete and utter nonsense.
They said, again and again, that ‘tens of thousands’ of innocent people, mostly women and children, would die in the massive onslaught of bomb happy Americans.
It didn’t happen - DID IT? - the death toll for Iraqi’s is just over one thousand - and those are Iraqi [ex]government figures.
They said, again and again, the troops would get bogged down in months and months of fighting.
Try three weeks. THREE. WEEKS.
They said, again and again, thousands of coalition troops would be coming home in body-bags as a result of such fighting.
Try under 50 (most through friendly-fire. Natch).
They said, again and again, that Baghdad would be flattened without mercy by MOABs.
It didn’t happen - DID IT? - instead government buildings were hit with precision, gutting them, not destroying them.
They said, again and again, that there would be NO WELCOME from the people of Baghdad, that they would take up arms against the “invaders” (as Saddam and the ‘peaceniks’ - in cahoots as usual - called them) out of some sort of civic pride and Baghdad would turn into a Stalingrad-like bloody conflict.
It didn’t happen - DID IT? - what happened was the US troops drove into the city centre without a single shot fired, and were welcomed with jubilation.
They said, again and again, that “Saddam is a bad man buuuuut... actually it’s Dubya that’s the real villain. Saddam is bad buuuuuut... actually it’s actually all about oil actually, and everyone knows that actually. I read it in the Gaurarudian. Must be true”

Great scenes: Iraqi’s dragging the head of Saddam’s bronze statue thorough the streets, one person riding on it; a man standing in a street in central Baghdad, whacking the huge poster of Saddam he was holding with his shoe, shouting anti-Saddam invective; the looters making off with riches that were for decades denied them, including the kind of gaudy urns that Michael Jackson favours - but don’t call it looting, call it distribution of wealth. For now it’s fine, order will come in good time. Best of all: one of the first places in Baghdad that was targeted was a UN building - priceless! Genius! Was it coincidence? I doubt it, no fools the Iraqis, I think they knew exactly what they were doing. Brilliant stuff.
And news of protestors on the streets of London today as well - except these weren’t the middle-class dupes of the ‘Stop the War’ brigade, instead they were exiled Iraqis “taking” the Iraqi embassy as a protest against their [old] regime (no sign of any speccy students with placards though. Funny that).

Soon enough the doors to Saddam’s torture prisons and rape rooms will be thrown open, the weapons hidden under mosques dug out and the secrets of his immense brutality will be finally revealed. In fact it’s already started, ITN had a report last night with Iraqis, desperate to tell the world at last, leading the reporter around one prison - dungeon I’d call it - where they or their relatives had been tortured and kept, one telling the reporter he was locked in a miniscule cell for eight years because he - and I quote - “prayed too much” and was therefore seen as a subversive. Others acted out just how prisoners would be beaten and cruelly tortured during interrogation. Tip of the ice-burg stuff, I fear.
The pictures of those innocent people, children in particular, injured in the bombing (mainly thanks to Saddam’s habit of placing targets in civilian areas - and, by the by, anyone see that militia man using a child as his personal shield during one fire-fight? ) and the footage of Ali, the little boy who not only had lost his family but both his arms in a raid, was particularly heart-breaking. A horrendous tragedy. He is though, at the very very least, alive. He is being looked after, he will be flown to London and taken care of. He will survive. His story will be heard.
I just wonder if the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands not just injured in an accident but deliberately murdered during the Saddam years will have their stories heard? The children - not just men and women, children - imprisoned without trial, tortured to death in front of their families, women raped in front of their families, men being thrown alive into plastic-shredding machines, men and women and children hung up on meathooks in a ware(/slaughter)house and beaten, electrocuted and left to slowly die in agony... will GMTV or The Daily Mirror be telling their stories soon? Probably not, but hopefully someone will.

The ‘Stop The War’ movement - what’s left of it - has had the stench of failure for weeks and is now merely laughable. The support for it in Britain has utterly collapsed. A poll in the peaceniks precious Guardian at the start of the week had those still opposed to war at 29% (s’funny, the protestors were repeatedly bellowing that “virtually everyone in the country” is against the war just last month. Huh, and they say that Saddam’s Minister For Information came out with dubious statistics - he’s got nothing on these delusional dopes) I’m guessing that figure has dropped even further now.
That won’t deter the hardcore on the marches (the skivers and the under-tens that filled their ranks probably aren’t going to be bothered with it much more), they will grimace at pictures of liberation and attempt to carry on their meritless protest and their lost argument. They claim to have the moral high-ground and to be against war, but it comes apparently obvious when viewing the marches in various countries that the truth behind them is wholly different. Amongst other things I have seen with my own eyes in these mobs a variety of agendas: anti-Semitism, pro-Stalinism, pro-Saddamism and, at the very core of each and every march, at the heart of each and every protestor, the one thing that unites them all: a near-fanatical, hysterical anti-Americanism.
It has the leftist middle-class in Britain and the self-loathing anglophile American in a vice-like grip to such an extent that they are now even giving tacit support to the genocidal maniac Saddam Hussein and his tyrannical fascist regime. Nothing, it seems, can make them come to their senses. Not even, perhaps, a joyful liberation of an oppressed people.
This is a massive failure of the left in the west, who, as a result of having no moral compass, have become an irrelevance. Shame.

Very, very difficult days ahead, yes. But, what is now beyond argument is:
If it was up to the protestors Saddam would still be in power right now and for a long, long time to come. There was NO OTHER WAY to topple his regime, the protestors have certainly failed to come up with any viable alternative, except to ask for endless, pointless resolutions and endless, pointless 'inspections'. The peaceniks were wrong and have been proved wrong. Iraq is without Saddam Hussein.
Less than three weeks after this ‘war’ started I’d say: that’ll do.

DavidM (DavidM), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Cheers. Applause. Flowers. Jubilation. Liberation. Freedom.

What's that?

"Not In My Name"

Oh dear...

DavidM (DavidM), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

always a day late and a dollar short. We've already discussed this, ya moron.

hstencil, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The war's over?

Damn, I knew my aversion to cable news networks would come back to haunt me someday.

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Tell ya what, tough guy--go take a look at the Al Jazeera website and the pictures of the Baghdad marketplace that took the missile strike. Check out the kid with the top half of his/her skull missing. Take in the woman with her face peeled off. Some fucking liberation.

They died for a good cause, though, of course. Stamping out Al Qaeda WMD international law.

mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Speaking as a proud American - what better way to celebrate than to eliminate the sunset clause of Patriot Act I? Maybe we won't have to put up with so much pro-Stalinist bullshit when the next war comes around.

Kerry (dymaxia), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

If it was up to the protestors Saddam would still be in power right now and for a long, long time to come.

if it was up to the protestors, saddam would never have been in power in the first place.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave may be right on that point Pashima quotes, but it remains to be seen what sort of political and social climate will replace Saddam (although I remain agnostic) and whether it will be seen as an improvement by many Iraqis. And it also remans to be seen what actions the US might be emboldened to take after this victory.

Amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Let's dehumanise every Iraqi killed, so that they're a homogenous mass of 'negligible number.'

Let's burn the face of every coalition death/injury into our memory as individuals.

No.

How do you think the kid who lost his parents and his arms feels? Why don't you LOOK at him? Really. Look at him and notice that annoying fact; he lives, breathes, feels and is an individual.

Did all those pictures of tanks and guns make you really hard?

I thought so!

ChristineSH (chrissie1068), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

what better way to celebrate than to eliminate the sunset clause of Patriot Act I?

Some Republicans in Congress are clamoring for the Patriot Act to be made permanent. I suggest everyone research their reps' and senators' positions on this, and WRITE LETTERS. It's important.

hstencil, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 20:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I have seen with my own eyes in these mobs a variety of agendas: anti-Semitism, pro-Stalinism,

Are you conflating communism with Stalinism?

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:00 (twenty-two years ago)

war is wrong. The results may be good but many many people have died to achieve that.

I will be marching on saturday, against the on going war and against coming wars.

Ed (dali), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Of course war is wrong, but there comes a point when it is the only option. I mean, you could try to settle disputes by having leaders mud wrestle, but the loser will invariably say 'fuck that, I'm not gonna kowtow to you anyway'
(I don't think we reached that point re:Iraq)

oops (Oops), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

well, im watching the news now...and its time for me to liberate my penis from my underwear.

Chris V. (Chris V), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:44 (twenty-two years ago)

DavidM, your whole post is like looking in on two newlyweds, cuddling happily after their first honeymoon fuck, and swearing that -- statistics be damned -- they'll never divorce: just look how happy they are!

Pretty much no one -- anywhere, ever -- has expressed much doubt that countless Iraqi people will be incredibly relieved to be rid of Hussein. Here's your fifteen minutes of relief, kid: here are your flowers, here are your celebrations, here's your sweaty bridal-suite afterglow. As it turns out, though, it was a shotgun marriage -- the bride was pretty reluctant about it! -- and the groom doesn't have much of a clue what they're even going to do when the honeymoon's over, apart from going through his new wife's purse when she's not looking.

Tomorrow morning, as it happens, the two of them may find themselves standing in line in a noisy airport getting on each other's nerves something fierce. And when the groom starts beating the bride and she starts clawing at his eyeballs, why do I get the feeling you won't be here to post "warniks: think maybe the marriage was a bad idea in the first place?"

nabisco (nabisco), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:50 (twenty-two years ago)

(cue Clear Channel organizing a "protest" to support Chris's masturbation efforts)

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

"the “invaders” (as Saddam and the ‘peaceniks’ - in cahoots as usual - called them)"

Accurately.

Lord Byron Lived Here, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 22:57 (twenty-two years ago)

holy shit.

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

"Winning" is only going to matter if we clean up the mess. People should know better (but that's the way its always been).

Alan Conceicao, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

>They said, again and again, thousands of coalition troops would be
> coming home in body-bags as a result of such fighting.
> Try under 50 (most through friendly-fire. Natch).

Not that its a big point, but official casualties are at 132 and will probably grow to at least 200 when its all counted up.

fletrejet, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

We're still talking about Chris's masturbation efforts, right?

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Wednesday, 9 April 2003 23:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Why do I disagree with everyone who agrees with me?

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 10 April 2003 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Bet you can't WAIT for us to go after Syria, Dave. Bet you've got a nice hard-on in your pants already. The TV's set to Fox News, and the Vaseline's out on the table.

So we didn't kill as many people as we might have. Wow. What a great waw this was. Is that what you wanted us poor misguided liberals to say?

Well, fuck that noise. I wouldn't get so excited yet.

justin s., Thursday, 10 April 2003 01:07 (twenty-two years ago)

haha

WAR'S PRACTICALLY OVER

EVERYBODY GET PISSED OFF

Millar (Millar), Thursday, 10 April 2003 01:30 (twenty-two years ago)

http://cloud.prohosting.com/bronze35/ayiabtu.html

yeah that's it. It's ok: just a little funny

A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 10 April 2003 02:34 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.heanosantiq.com/images/gitroll.jpg

Prude (Prude), Thursday, 10 April 2003 03:39 (twenty-two years ago)

whatever that is, it needs a bodybag

Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 05:35 (twenty-two years ago)

1. The war isn't over.
2. I've seen larger crowds than that waving and saluting Saddam. Where the hell was everybody? The reporters kept saying thousands, and I kept seeing tens.
3. I find it interesting that "THE GREAT VICTORY" comes quickly on the heels of the withdrawl of many non-US-friendly networks and an armed assault on non-embedded reporters.

Colin Meeder (Mert), Thursday, 10 April 2003 07:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Thousands of people have died, but millions have the chance of a better life. I think the living are more important than the dead. Of course, it could all go wrong, but I think the Iraqis have a better chance now than they've had for decades.

Bingo, Thursday, 10 April 2003 09:35 (twenty-two years ago)

The people of [insert name of next sovereign state with lucrative natural resources we want to invade illegally] have a better chance now than they have for decades.

Fine, if you're going to be an empire, do what the Romans did -- make every colonial dependent a Roman citizen.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 09:58 (twenty-two years ago)

they didn't do that till they were loosing their grip, did they? Not until sometime in the 200s CE if I recall correctly

Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Caesar extended citizenship in 44 BC.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Do I hate liberation? Yes.

George W. Bush, speaking at West Point about his 'new thinking': "By confronting evil and lawless regimes, we do not create a problem, we reveal a problem."

The problems this one sentence 'reveal' to me are:

1. It's not 'new thinking', it's old imperialism come back way after its sell-by date.
2. 'Evil'. What does that mean, exactly? Somebody who thinks differently from you?
3. 'Lawless regimes'. You mean regimes who break their own law? Who break international law? Who break away from imperial powers? You mean what King George had in mind when he looked at the fledgling US republic?
4. By attacking other countries, you do indeed create problems.
5. It is in your interest as a rightist to create (or 'reveal') new enemies and basically tramp up a tizzy in the wasp's nest. As long as you can impose draconian and repressive measures at home and abroad, who cares if a few people get stung?
6. (Meanwhile, despite dismal economic performance, widening gap between rich and poor, plummeting educational standards, new diseases, etc, you probably get re-elected.)
7. Why not sell some new dictator arms then accuse him of having arms, then have your son invade?
8. God is on your side.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:29 (twenty-two years ago)

So you dispute that the Saddam regime is/was 'evil' then?

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:38 (twenty-two years ago)

and bush is evil?

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

'Citizenahip extended to some provinces'

I think that extension of citizenship didn't even encompass all of the Italian peninsular.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:41 (twenty-two years ago)

The word 'evil' has no place in politics.

Saul -- later St Paul -- was a Jew from Tarsus, in modern-day Turkey. Yet he had Roman citizenship. When a centurion commanded Paul ?to be examined by scourging,? he famously said 'Civis Romnus sum; Is it lawful for you to scourge a Roman citizen, and uncondemned?'

(1) No Roman citizen could be condemned unheard; (2) by the Valerian Law he could not be bound; (3) by the Sempronian Law it was forbidden to scourge him, or to beat him with rods.

Now imagine if Afghans had been made American citizens when the US took over there, or if Iraqis were now being given citizenship rights. Who would they vote for, come 2004, in the US? Surely by dying in large numbers, giving up their Iraqi sovereignty and throwing their hats, veils etc in the air, they have earned the right to US citizenship?

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Saul/Paul was a roman citizen because he was a tax collector or some such. Officials/Collaborators got citizenship. General extension didn't happen till later. (I'll google up evidence later).

Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:54 (twenty-two years ago)

But what I'm saying is, look: American generals are slated to run Iraq now for what looks as if it will be years. Iraqi oil will soon be controlled by American interests. So why are Iraqis not at the very least allowed to vote in the US election? If something like that doesn't happen, surely this is just naked imperialism, and not even as scrupulous as the Roman model?

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

you're evil, momus.

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)

But does any of this matter if the people of Iraq are better off? I happen to think that Iraq will ultimately be run by the Iraqi people, and hopefully in a democratic way, but even if it is not the lives of most Iraqis will almost certainly be better than under Saddam. That's millions of Iraqis. It seems to me that people get awfully upset about Iraqi deaths but don't give a fuck about Iraqi lives.

Bingo, Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

It's totally conceivable that if the US invaded Canada tomorrow, the lives of those Canadians who survived might improve in some ways. Am I being callous in saying the US would be utterly reprehensible nevertheless to invade Canada?

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

haha,

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

well, at least there are new war comics!

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war23.html

geeta (geeta), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Are Candadians being tortured and murdered by their government too?

Fuzzy (Fuzzy), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

They've got weapons of mass destruction and oil, so who cares? Let's roll!

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Latest opinion polls:

52% of US public believes invasion of Canada justified.
37% believes it would only be justified if Tony Blair joined in.
3% believe it cannot be justified in any circumstances.
8% don't know.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:39 (twenty-two years ago)

'ARE YOU CRAZY! Do you think Medicins Sans Frontiers would let kids ride around on a fuckin' decapitated rusty statue without a helmet.'

Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:41 (twenty-two years ago)

L O P:

77% are bored
10% are concerned but not doing anything about it
8% are really concerned but not doing anything about it
4% don't know
1% you are an asshole

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you AGREE / DISAGREE with the following statements:

Canadians have a shifty look.

There are probably Al Quaeda terrorist 'sleeper cells' in Canada.

Canada has a significant muslim population.

Canada lies a little too close for comfort to the US border.

Canadians would be better off as US citizens.

There is a wealth of unexplored mineral riches in northern Canada.

The Canadian government has been 'playing games' to protect its interests.

Our patience with Canada will shortly be at an end.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:46 (twenty-two years ago)

L O P:
77% are bored
10% are concerned but not doing anything about it
8% are really concerned but not doing anything about it
3% don't know
2% you are an asshole

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Momus, what if we give Iraqis the right to vote, and they all move to Berlin?

hstencil, Thursday, 10 April 2003 12:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Comparing Canada with Iraq is good for a joke, but I wouldn't base my opinions on it, Momus.

Bingo, Thursday, 10 April 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

hstencil I really wouldn't have a problem with that. What's your point?

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 12:47 (twenty-two years ago)

My point is that some people aren't as "lucky" as you.

hstencil, Thursday, 10 April 2003 12:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Don't laugh - Canadians who dare to cross the border are actually being targeted by fanatical jingoists. I saw a story yesterday that said that Canadians who venture south are being disproportionately targeted for petty traffic violations. I believe it, too - I mean, some of these people are boycotting Au Bon Pain, which is a Boston food chain.

Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:14 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, after reading though this thread, I'm totally pissed off again. Plus there's a big Rummy shot in the paper, where he's wearing this big shit-eating grin.
Meanwhile, Saddam joins Bin Laden in the Elvis/Hoffa/D.B. Cooper Zone.
Fuck.
Whooping the fuck out of some country that poses NO THREAT to you, way to go assholes. (and of course, I don't mean all americans, just the assholes)

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Momus: you were just saying yesterday how without Saddam's brutal regime Iraq will fall back into internecine ethnic conflict. Now you're saying Iraqis should be made citizens because they are ready to participate in a modern democratic government. Which is it?

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:20 (twenty-two years ago)

sounds like a case of SHOULD vs. WILL

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Stuart, do you have some kind of filter that only allows you to read the words you want to read?

Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

He's making the case that they aren't ready for citizenship but they should be made citizens because he hopes it would lead to chaos in the united states. I'm aware of that. I just wanted him to acknowldedge it too.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

how can someone who goes by gonzomoose be so bereft of a sense of humour?

Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think Momus is funny.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

dear God I agree with Stuart (re: Momus)

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

(not being funny)

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

momus is only funny.

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

like Calum

James Blount (James Blount), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm convinced.

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

momus is a comedian. If you read his posts as jokes its not so bad.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

We agree on lots of things, James.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Not one to normally defend momus (or what he says he's wrong in both cases here up for discussion). But he has put forward two different arguments about two different things that don't necessarily contradict. If iraq is about to disintegrate, (which I don't think it is) then maybe colonising iraq and making the iraqis citizens of the US empire would stop this from happening.

It doesn't take a giant leap of the imagination.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Momus's argument was not "something significant must occur to stablize the government of Iraq and maintain security among the ethnic groups." His argument was that the only thing capable of preventing interethnic civil war was "Saddam's Iron Fist." Without Saddam's Iron Fist, according to Momus, we could sit back and watch the country disintegrate. You can only explain Momus's current contradiction if you equate Saddam's Regime with American Citizenship.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

That's utter tripe.

You don't need that equivalence, which you can't make anyway because they are two different things, that's like trying to say these apples are fish. I think citizenship is a slight red herring. Citizenship would entail all of the trappings of empire; a civil service, security forces etc.

You're reading far too much in momus's postings.

Ed (dali), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:11 (twenty-two years ago)

He's making the case that they aren't ready for citizenship but they should be made citizens because he hopes it would lead to chaos in the united states. I'm aware of that. I just wanted him to acknowldedge it too.

Au contraire, my drearies, I'm arguing that if they are to be made imperial dependents, at least let them civilise the host empire by swelling the ranks of its Democratic Party voters, as they surely would. I think they would probably have a much better political grasp than the average American voter, having been on the cutting edge of foreign policy and tasting at first hand such trendy concepts as 'pre-emption'. The net result would be less, not more, chaos 'in the belly of the eagle'.

But since I know such a thing will never happen -- because America wants their oil and not their dangling chads -- my proposal remains a modest one (as modest as the pre-elected Bush said his foreign policy was going to be), a mere exercise in imagineering.

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:15 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm arguing that if they are to be made imperial dependents, at least let them civilise the host empire by swelling the ranks of its Democratic Party voters, as they surely would.

Bit of a strange assumption there about party affiliation, Momus.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:21 (twenty-two years ago)

(I.e. he's just being sarcastic: if Tommy Franks or some darker-skinned extension of the White House is going to be the de facto Saddam of the coming months why not give them the friggin vote? It's a minor point and if you already can't fathom the arguments against the U.S. in this Momus is obviously not the place to look for a moderate explanation.)

(Momus, could we please starting with giving the vote to the citizens of Washington, D.C. before we start extending it into Asia?)

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

(Ned, the line goes like this: if the world were exactly how Momus imagines it to be, they'd obviously vote Democratic. They would also buy Stars Forever.)

nabisco (nabisco), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

He's a comedian, see.

Stuart (Stuart), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:24 (twenty-two years ago)

They would certainly not be voting Republican Guard, boom boom!

Momus (Momus), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

BOOM!

ahh...

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

My head hurts.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 10 April 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I think someone linked this before, but this is quite instructional. This is a wide-view of the famous jubilation in the heart of Baghdad:

http://blog.kynn.com/shock/graphics/statuekilling0.jpg

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:33 (twenty-two years ago)

(the fallen statue and "throngs" are up in the upper-right of the traffic circle)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I see ppl celebrating through the windows

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Ha! I just got that in my inbox. Unfortunately, it's so blurry and unspecific that I don't think it's helpful.

Kerry (dymaxia), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Baghdad has some nifty architecture- I dug the crossed swords (scimitars?) entrance to the city.

lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 April 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

There's another place (Dubai?) that has the crossed swords dealie, only they look more expensive and bigger.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:01 (twenty-two years ago)

so Saddams whole problem stemmed from crossed swords envy?

lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Where's Dan Perry when you need him?

oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:10 (twenty-two years ago)

he's never around until you're eating something

lawrence kansas (lawrence kansas), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

What the hell, aren't these posts the Perry equivalent of the Batsign?

oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 19:20 (twenty-two years ago)

If I had just invaded a city where it was very likely that there were lots of people trying to kill me, I'd be doing my very best to stop any huge crowds congregating.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 11 April 2003 08:46 (twenty-two years ago)

why does everyone hate and fear Pax Americana so much? it's not like the US is China or somebody really scary like that. and even if they are corrupt, what the fuck, fix it later

dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Pax Americana resulted in the attacks on the twin towers and the pentagon.

Ed (dali), Friday, 11 April 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

(btw it'd be good if SOMEBODY invaded Canada, or if Quebec started a civil war, those lazy slobs need to fuckin' wake up. in the West it would be Anschluss anyway and I for one couldn't give a shit, we've been pampered too long as it is)

dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 10:16 (twenty-two years ago)

'Pax Americana resulted in the attacks on the twin towers and the pentagon'

yeah and the Frigidaire company was responsible for Jeffrey Dahmer for FUCK's sake

dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 10:19 (twenty-two years ago)

(Momus for President of USA! but only if he's being totally serious!)

dave quisling, Friday, 11 April 2003 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Pax Americana resulted in the attacks on the twin towers and the pentagon

oh lord, not this shit...

oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:03 (twenty-two years ago)

It's not necessarily "shit." I think what Ed might be getting at is this:

(a) Before the first gulf war, no major Islamic terrorist group went out of its way to target American civilians, and none even dreamed of bringing terrorism onto American soil. (See: Hamas, Hezbollah.)

(b) The Sauds' cooperation with the U.S. in the first gulf war, and especially the stationing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, are Al Qaeda's biggest beef with the U.S.

(c) Al Qaeda has been the most successful terrorist group in attacking U.S. outposts and bringing terrorism to the U.S. -- and the people who've accomplished this are mostly Saudis.

You can make a lot of arguments that that's not justified (obviously), but you can't really claim that terrorism's focusing on the U.S. hasn't been triggered -- right or wrong -- by these things.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh and I agree, and I thought I came down a little too strong, but I sensed a tinge of justification in that post. I was probaly wrong.
However, I think there are other factors involved, specifically the high poverty level in the Mid East. If things were honky-dory there, I don't think the impetus needed to produce radicals would exist.
Now, one could argue that the poverty there is caused by US policy, but I'm not that person.

oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, this is one of the problems with backing loads of shitty regimes anywhere in the world: it would take a much more knowledgeable person than any of us -- possibly a much more knowledgeable person than even exists on the planet -- to make any even vaguely accurate claims about what the mid-East might be like had we not backed the Shah, armed Iraq and Iran, stood behind the Sauds, etc. ...

I did just think you and Dave swooped too harshly on that comment: in proximate terms it's pretty much true, that you can definitely argue that it's not a useful analysis. (Or argue, as the administration does, that it was too little Pax Americana that allowed those things to happen, not too much.)

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Now we can just move everything over into this new country we invaded and conquered fair and square. Surely everyone can be happy now that we're "buying, not renting"

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 11 April 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I did read it as 'y'all brought this on yourself' which I think is very callous and simplistic. Like I said, I was probaly wrong.

oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

'buying, not renting'

haha i wonder if the anti-globalisers like the new strategy better

dave q, Friday, 11 April 2003 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.