evolutionary psychology

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the way this science can be applied to every spheres of human activity is simply fascinating.

Here's the best idea I've read on how to use it to it's full potential:
"See whether humans can use feedback from realtime fMRI to help
identify internal rationalization, hatred, tribal-based thinking, etc.
You may not get all the bugs, but if you can get just some, it may be
enough to tip the internal mental balance. Evolution has no experience puppeteering humans with access to that information. "
--Eliezer S. Yudkowsky

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Thursday, 10 April 2003 02:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you really need a scan to detect these 'bugs', though?

Aaron A., Thursday, 10 April 2003 03:23 (twenty-two years ago)

no but it would help, especially as a learning tool where people could modify these complex cognitive activities in realtime.

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Thursday, 10 April 2003 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Sébastien, I salute you and your threads.

slutsky (slutsky), Thursday, 10 April 2003 03:33 (twenty-two years ago)

thank you slutsky :-)
the more i post here the more i advance in different projects and my problems are getting more interesting

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Thursday, 10 April 2003 05:01 (twenty-two years ago)


i think we're pretty far from being able to use fMRI in real time
like that. just showing a causal link between localized brain activity and some psychological phenomenon requires much signal averaging and a very controlled, carefully designed task.

i've done a little work in a related direction you can find
a brief description at the web site:

http://www.mis.atr.co.jp/~mlyons/vitalsigns.html

so there are body signals which are more straightforward to use which can be useful in this regard.

mlyons, Thursday, 10 April 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)


p.s. the way i've seen the term 'evolutionary psychology' used in most cases relates to the attempt to applying darwinian evolutionary theory to explain human behaviour.

but i very much like the mis-appropriation here which seems to be more open ended and affirms that other forms of evolution are possible.

mlyons, Thursday, 10 April 2003 05:32 (twenty-two years ago)

i think we're pretty far from being able to use fMRI in real time
like that

I'm not sure. I remember having seen some very interesting prediction to that effect but I don't remember where exactly at the moment.
Maybe it was
http://www.geocities.com/picturesref/scanning.jpgsomewhere on this page or maybe not... i'll search and get back here with the info when i'll get the time.

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Thursday, 10 April 2003 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)


i dont claim certainty either, but i have read some of the recent research literature in fMRI and i think that there would need to be some pretty big fundamental advances to be able to do fMRI in ecologically realistic situations.

this is not to mention the fact that interpretation of the fMRI signal is still consdired to be controversial. there were some good review articles in nature neuroscience magazine last year on that. some feel that the signal doesn't really give us any useful picture of what the brain is actually doing.

there is a still more fundament

there's also the question of safety. you have to stick your head into a very huge rf electromagnetic field. not as bad as radioactive imaging methods, but we're still not sure whether or not it is completely safe. when i meet people who do fMRI i always ask them: do you think this technique is truly 100% safe and if i press them enough the answer i get is "we don't really know for sure yet what the long term effects are".

still it is definitely

mlyons, Thursday, 10 April 2003 07:42 (twenty-two years ago)


sorry ...

meant to say that there are some fundamental questions about how to interpret this information - for example - do we really expect to understand complex human behaviour just by looking at brain activity and not the rest of the body as well as the environment in which the behaviour occurs.

still fMRI is definitely a fascinating technique.

mlyons, Thursday, 10 April 2003 07:47 (twenty-two years ago)

i like to imagine how the aesthetic drive was a reproductively important ability for ancestral humans. the evidence of such a design might be that humans all around the world appreciate flowers for their beauty :-)

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Thursday, 10 April 2003 13:48 (twenty-two years ago)

thank you mlyons your posts have very well demarcated boundaries and challenges this technique is facing today.

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

But how did our aeshetic drive re:reproduction get transferred to flowers, mountains vistas, etc?

oops (Oops), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

i think i undersand your question oops
i have to go to work but i'll have a shot at it when i'll get back
its gonna be fun:-)

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Thursday, 10 April 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)


i've wondered about this too.

my guess is that evolutionary thinking (reproductive fitness etc...) will lead one to something like the "peak shift hypothesis" which has been discussed by ramachandran & hirstein recently in the journal of conciousness studies. the basic idea is that aesthetic stimuli give sensory circuits particularly effective stimuli.

ramachandran claims to have been inspired by some ancient indian ideas about art, in particular the concept of rasa (roughly essence). by focusing on the rasa and exagerating (as for example through caricature) one creates a stimulus that has a strong effect on the nervous system. ramachandran's paper is worth looking up if you have a good library nearby, not only is the argument clearly and entertainingly presented but it is filled with pictures of classic indian nude statues.

seriously, though i find darwinian explanations of aesthetics circular and not very satisfying. i'm much more intrigued by the idea that the aesthetic strikes a special balance between order and disorder. this involves 'gestalt' processes. it is well discussed in r. arhneim's essay "entropy and art". if you are really interested in aesthetics i would highly recommend having a look at any and all of arnheim's books.

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 01:55 (twenty-two years ago)

But how did our aeshetic drive re:reproduction get transferred to flowers, mountains vistas, etc?

Quite possibly in the same (or similar) fashion that our drive to hunt and kill was transferred to gambling, entrepreneurship, video games and action films?

The most interesting aspect of evolutionary psychology to me is addiction. Does anybody else realize that addictions are one of the founding aspects of civilization e.g. whole societies are tied together by their drug of choice? Having an addictive personality is such a preponderant characteristic amongst humans (and one with such potentially dangerous consequences re: reproduction & health) one almost has to conclude that somewhere along the line (possibly quite a long time ago, but more likely even in the present day) having addictions was/is an evolutionary ADVANTAGE? WTF.

So much fun.

Millar (Millar), Friday, 11 April 2003 02:45 (twenty-two years ago)


yes but evolutionary advantage for who or what? that seems to be the key question.

papaver somniferum certainly benefited from the fact that it secrets resin containing molecules very similar to certain human neurotransmiters.

but it would take a much longer stretch to see how addiction to these substances is in anyway beneficial to humans.

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 03:11 (twenty-two years ago)

If it wasn't for ethanol we'd never have invented agriculture

Millar (Millar), Friday, 11 April 2003 03:22 (twenty-two years ago)


maybe ...

still many of these evolutionary arguments are somehow not very satisfying.

for example, how would one argue for the evolutionary advantage of nuclear weapons technology?

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 03:51 (twenty-two years ago)

having addictions was/is an evolutionary ADVANTAGE? WTF.

there is no need to shout. do you think humanity finished evolving? we are still a very young specie who just got sentient before reaching the point of biological perfection... or maybe sentience is part of the process of our evolution that will lead us to this

...

But how did our aeshetic drive re:reproduction get transferred to flowers, mountains vistas, etc?

the ae drive was born from the conjunction of a multiplicity of factors, it's anchoring in geneticis is just one of them.

the ae drive is an activity of discernment.
I think it is related to the necessity pay attention to the world around for our survival but it is different of it in the sense that ae activity is emotionally charged: there is satisfaction that is taken to this cognitive activity.
It is the attention that is satisfying, not necesairly it's object (who may cause displeasure or pleasure, evoke sadness etc).
looking at the animal world it is not a big stretch to think it was also related to the process of selecting a sexual partner. There is also an aspect of cultural transmission (even present in the animal world; within a same specie, bling-bling making craft to impress females diverging depending on their region).
etc.

it's not the (amateur)opus answer i first thought i'd write but hey, hope it was as fun for you as it was for me.

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Friday, 11 April 2003 06:34 (twenty-two years ago)


that's an interesting way to think about it. it would be interesting to look further into relation between attentional processes, emotion, and aesthetics. it relates both to the kind of 'peak shift' things discussed by ramachandran (as these tend to be good at grabbing and holding attention) as well as to gestalt processes which are closely involved in attention (e.g. attentional pop-out depending on gestalt factors).

this is also fertile ground for evolutionary rationalizations as attentional processes involved both in reproduction and hunting & gathering.

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 06:55 (twenty-two years ago)


a further factor that i think should be considered with respect to aesthetics is novelty/familiarity

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 06:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Here is a discussion of the peak shift and related ideas.

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 07:06 (twenty-two years ago)


Ramachandran claims that by exagerating the feminine aspects of this statue:

http://www.unesco.org/courier/1999_06/photoshr/40.jpg

the artist creates a "peak shift" in the response of some neural circuit.

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 07:10 (twenty-two years ago)


http://www.unesco.org/courier/1999_06/photoshr/40.jpg

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 07:11 (twenty-two years ago)

i speed read the article to see if this 'peak shift' hypothesis might be key to help in accelerating technological and cultural changes while staying adapted and avoiding alienation but for what i could see it's only concern was visual art. i think an abstract cognitive activity like "studying" can be an object for an aesthetic conduct. I'll read it more carefully tomorrow: it's 4:47am here...

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Friday, 11 April 2003 07:50 (twenty-two years ago)


i think you have pretty good intuition. david berlyne, a philosopher/psychologist of aesthetics, was also fascinated by human curiosity.

mlyons, Friday, 11 April 2003 08:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Much thanks Sebastien and mlyons...fascinating stuff

oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 14:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't know about addictions being an evolutionary advantage. I think it's more of a consequence between of the different scales involved in biological/social/environmental evolution, which don't necessarily happen in parallel.

A prime example of this is a common moth. At night moths swarm around porch lights, banging into them repeatedly. This is a biological impulse the moth has to follow moonlight for mating (or something or other, I can't remember exactly). This is a behavior that was evolved over quite some time. But, the environmental evolution hasn't kept pace with the moth's perceptual evolution. Suddenly the environment has porch lights and the moth's perceptual evolution can't keep up.

Same thing with human beings and sugar. Sugar tastes sweet to us, because in our biological and perceptual evolution it made sense. Sugars were in short supply and they provided high dietary energy that was beneficial. Now the environment has changed and sugar is available everywhere in the supermarket. Our perceptual evolution can't make corrections fast enough. All the sweets are making people obese, giving them diabetes, ruining teeth, and is generally harmful. Sugar addiction isn't advantageous anymore.

The rift between these different types of evolution cause weird things to happen.

cprek (cprek), Friday, 11 April 2003 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

cprek=OTM
Not every human attribute/tendency has to have a positive evolutionary function (or even if it does, it still may have negative side effects or be harmful in too big of a dose), cuz we ain't perfect. This is esp. true for us humans since our environment and way of living is changing much more rapidly than the rate we evolve.

oops (Oops), Friday, 11 April 2003 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Remember that using words like "positive" and "negative" within the context of evolution aren't completely appropriate, as evolution is about change whether you subscribe to Darwin's view, Gould's view, or anyone else's. Matt Ridley's "The Red Queen" provides an interesting perspective on motivations for such change and their implications for human mating behaviors, which evolutionary psychology also discusses in detail.

Erick H (Erick H), Saturday, 12 April 2003 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)


perhaps ... though the phrase " x confers an selective advantage" is common in works on evolution. i think the terms 'positive' and 'negative' are being used as shorthand in this thread.

mlyons, Sunday, 13 April 2003 08:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry to be a stickler on the shorthand, but it's a peeve of mine fueled by the shallow understanding of evolution by the majority of my students ("we're gettin' better!") . . . but at least I get to teach basic evolution, so it can't be that bad, right?

Erick H (Erick H), Monday, 14 April 2003 02:34 (twenty-two years ago)


no worries.

any creationists in your class? do you hassle you?

mlyons, Monday, 14 April 2003 03:09 (twenty-two years ago)

It is the attention that is satisfying, not necesairly it's object

small correction:
(on the ae drive)"it is the attention itself that is satisfying, not necessairly the judgment on it's object (who may cause displeasure or pleasure, evoke sadness etc)."
would be closer to what I had in mind.

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Tuesday, 15 April 2003 02:03 (twenty-two years ago)


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