Israeli troops shoot British peace activist.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,935018,00.html

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 11 April 2003 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

WTF? Where's the link? Trying again...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,935018,00.html

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 11 April 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it just me or is the IDF getting away with things these days that might have been a little more controversial without the Iraq ~~distraction~~...er, invasion going on next door?

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Friday, 11 April 2003 18:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I think Sharon is aware of the Wolfowitz/Cheney idea that peace in Israel-Palestine is not necessary for their vision of the middle east, so feels significantly less pressure now that this transformation is underway. These do not sound like isolated incidents to me--on the other hand it could be the inevitable result of years of stress on the IDF soldiers, rendering them (more) angry and trigger-happy (than usual).

― Amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 11 April 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

they've always had a habbit of shooting at anything.

― dyson (dyson), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:05 (twenty-two years ago)

surprise, surprise

― Clare (not entirely unhappy), Friday, 11 April 2003 19:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Wait, what's with "fell in front of bulldozer" and "bulldozer operator did not see her" stuff? Weren't there pictures not so long ago of her very clearly standing in front of the bulldozer to block it?

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Dyson is OTM - ask the crew of the USS Liberty

― Millar (Millar), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:10 (twenty-two years ago)

The Guardian story is pretty different from the one on his group's website:

http://www.palsolidarity.org/

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually there are two completely different stories on that site.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Never mind - both of the activists worked for the same .org

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:24 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.palsolidarity.org/pictures/rachelstanding2.jpg

You could see here that it's possible that from the driver's point of view, Corrie might have been obscured by the shovel. And perhaps he had headphones on, meaning he could hear her shouting into the megaphone.

It seems unlikely, but perhaps not out of the realm of possibility.

― Amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:26 (twenty-two years ago)

could = couldn't

― Amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:27 (twenty-two years ago)

I sort of also doubt that they ran up and jumped in front of the bulldozer just as soon as it was close enough for the shovel to obscure his view.

― nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:29 (twenty-two years ago)

That's true. Perhaps the driver was used to people dodging out of the way in that last minute, but that does absolutely nothing to excuse it of course. I forget where it is, but somewhere on the 'net is an interview with a former bulldozer driver for the IDF, who had antisocial tendencies verging on the homicidal (one reason he was driving bulldozers in the West Bank--because he couldn't hold down another job).

― Amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 11 April 2003 20:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Sharon says that the Palestinians need to learn the lesson of Iraq.

The English Al Jazeera site was very funny about: "It's lesson time, folks" or something like that.

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 11 April 2003 22:38 (twenty-two years ago)

why doesn't al jazeera complain about jordan occupying 75% of "palestine"?

― keith (keithmcl), Friday, 11 April 2003 23:36 (twenty-two years ago)

because jordan isn't killing palestinians

― dyson (dyson), Saturday, 12 April 2003 05:04 (twenty-two years ago)

nope, just treating them as second-class citizens, whereas Israel treats them like cattle.

― hstencil, Saturday, 12 April 2003 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

there are very few countries that could get away with killing british or certainly american citizens abroad, with no comeback.

when i was in nyc and that bulldozer girl got killed by the bulldozer, i was astonished by the way the news was presented. here a US citizen had been killed by a foreign power, and there was no comeback, no outcry at all. i know there is support for, and identification with, israel in america of course, but i was very surprised that that supprot took precedence over OWN CITIZENS! i hadnt seen anything like that before, not first hand anyway.

i tried to imagine if an american citizen had been killed in portugal or australia or egypt or norway or cameroon by the authorities, what the reaction would be, i couldnt really see the same level of insouciance and acceptance about it. it was something i couldnt quite get my head around

― gareth (gareth), Saturday, 12 April 2003 06:37 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm still confused about this: am I anti-semetic if I say that Israel is a terrorist nation with a leader who is little better than Sadaam Hussein in the grand scheme of things? Because that's an obvious truth from where I sit, but I don't read that a whole lot, not even in the most vicious op-ed pieces. One gets the impression that Sharon is just a little misguided sometimes. Bullshit. The man's a nutbag, militaristic butcher. Now I ask you again, because I understand this is complicated: does this mean I hate Jews?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Saturday, 12 April 2003 06:43 (twenty-two years ago)

uh, no. don't worry. i have jewish friends who agree with me that sharon is a serial killer.

― dyson (dyson), Saturday, 12 April 2003 13:44 (twenty-two years ago)

only if you think all Jews are like Ariel Sharon!

― hstencil, Saturday, 12 April 2003 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

Sharon was elected.

― Stuart (Stuart), Saturday, 12 April 2003 18:53 (twenty-two years ago)

And what is that malignant little bon mot supposed to mean Stuart?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 12 April 2003 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

It means you might disagree with his politics or his morals, but at least he was elected by the people. You can't say the same thing for Arafat.

― Stuart (Stuart), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, that pesky nation of Palestine refuses to have proper national elections.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Take the blinkers off Stuart. The fact that Sharon was elected does not stop him being a war criminal.

― stevo (stevo), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I didn't say it did. Hitler was elected. I haven't seen Sharon suspending or undermining the democratic process in Israel, however.

― Stuart (Stuart), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:29 (twenty-two years ago)

''I didn't say it did''

by just saying 'sharon was elected' and leaving it at that you did suggest precisely what stevo was saying.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:31 (twenty-two years ago)

The "who is worse: Sharon or Arafat" game is useless, useless, useless.

― slutsky (slutsky), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Which is why I'm playing the "Who is elected: Sharon or Arafat" game, because democracy is a start.

― Stuart (Stuart), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Is it? You just noted that Hitler was elected.

(this isn't a criticism of democracy: I just don't think elections are the issue here)

― slutsky (slutsky), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:39 (twenty-two years ago)

It's a *start*.

― Stuart (Stuart), Saturday, 12 April 2003 19:42 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't seen Sharon suspending or undermining the democratic process in Israel, however.

That's because the people who he's oppressing don't get to vote for him or anybody!

― hstencil, Saturday, 12 April 2003 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

That's my point.

― Stuart (Stuart), Saturday, 12 April 2003 20:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Can you explain your point again, Stuart, simply?

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Saturday, 12 April 2003 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

The Palestinians need real elections and the lack of that process is a central obstacle to the peace process.

Sharon might be oppressing Palestinians but that's not why they don't get to vote for their own leadership.

― Stuart (Stuart), Saturday, 12 April 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

For some reason I am now starting to imagine a version of No Exit starring Ralph Nader, Ann Coulter, Michael Moore and Stuart.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 12 April 2003 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Stuart, you are an imbecile. First off, Arafat was elected as a result of the establishment of the Palestinian Authority, perhaps it was dubious, but he was still elected. Secondly, Palestinians in the Occupied Territories have never been allowed to vote in Israeli elections, and never been considered citizens, although Israel still has de facto control over them.

― hstencil, Saturday, 12 April 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

that Sharon was elected is more than a certain leader of a certain country can say, but i digress ...

i don't get why Stuart is hanging his hat on the fact that Sharon was elected. that this was so doesn't make his tactics -- or him -- any less reprehensible. and, if anything, it cuts both ways -- i.e., since the Israeli people voted for him (not once, but twice), then as far as i'm concerned they're complicit with his actions.

― Tad (llamasfur), Saturday, 12 April 2003 21:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Uh-oh, here we go.

― slutsky (slutsky), Saturday, 12 April 2003 21:53 (twenty-two years ago)

but you have to realize that Sharon leads a very fractured coalition in a country where there are a LOT of political parties with very divergent agendas. And how much of the vote did he win anyway?

― hstencil, Saturday, 12 April 2003 21:56 (twenty-two years ago)

it does look like the Israelis have declared open season on internationalists... this British guy shot dead, Rachel Corrie run over by a bulldozer, and some other American guy shot (not fatally) by tank a week or two back.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Saturday, 12 April 2003 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

dubious elections are acceptable now?

― Stuart (Stuart), Saturday, 12 April 2003 22:17 (twenty-two years ago)

dubious elections are acceptable now?

ask dubya and jeb -- not to mention Justices Rehnquist, Scalia, Thomas, O'Connor, and Kennedy.

― Tad (llamasfur), Saturday, 12 April 2003 22:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Why is everyone arguing with Stuart? He's finally right about something: Palestine should be an independent democracy.

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 12 April 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Then Stuart can go "Palestine has a rightfully elected leader and Sharon's still a dick."

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 12 April 2003 22:45 (twenty-two years ago)

i tried to imagine if an american citizen had been killed in portugal or australia or egypt or norway or cameroon by the authorities, what the reaction would be

These are people who voluntarily inserted themselves into highly dangerous situations. And I assure you that American and British citizens have been caught in the crossfire in countries other then Israel.

I'm still confused about this: am I anti-semetic if I say that Israel is a terrorist nation with a leader who is little better than Sadaam Hussein in the grand scheme of things?

I'm still confused where anbody said anything about anti-Semitism except you.

And how's Al-Jazeera's coverage of Muslims killing Hindus? And where is the liberal outrage when Christian missionaries are murdered?

― bnw (bnw), Saturday, 12 April 2003 23:51 (twenty-two years ago)

I've just looked at two threads in a row and on both of them someone eventually said "oh yeah well the Muslim world is worse." I'm starting to hate it. It's right up there with "but rappers do it all the time" in the ILX Horrible Excuses Hall of Fame. Someone criticizes the U.S. or Israel, and the most their defenders can do is point to the next guy and say "well they're not any better?" Hooray for Israel.

― nabisco (nabisco), Sunday, 13 April 2003 05:16 (twenty-two years ago)

i dont doubt it bnw! but what was interesting to me, and what i hadnt seen before, was the fact that identification in america appeared to be with israel rather than the american citizen. this was something i hadnt quite expected. in the other countries posited i couldnt imagine the same.

while i agree it happens in other places too, i couldnt imagine america giving nicaragua or lesotho the same benefit of the doubt. its just the insouciance that surprised me, i'm not saying its wrong, but for the murder of an american citizen abroad to be accepted so easily.

― gareth (gareth), Sunday, 13 April 2003 05:21 (twenty-two years ago)

"Human shield wankers go home."

― geeg, Sunday, 13 April 2003 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

These are people who voluntarily inserted themselves into highly dangerous situations.

yes, but the danger comes from an army that likes to shoot unarmed activists. This is surely the kind of thing all right thinking people should oppose. Or are you saying that it's acceptable behaviour for an army to shoot people moving in the open and plainly unarmed?

― DV (dirtyvicar), Sunday, 13 April 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

on the rachel corrie did-the-driver-see-her-or-didn't-he issue, this report seems to leave little doubt that the driver knew exactly what he was doing.

if you still believe that those poor israeli army bulldozer drivers are only doing their job and don't want to hurt anybody, i think this is the article amateurist was talking about upthread.

― rener (rener), Monday, 14 April 2003 09:39 (twenty-two years ago)

nine months pass...

Fuck the UK. noboy gives a fuck about the British. You guys once opressed the world but now have a dark ugly island. Get off Israel's nut sack and go eat some chips n fish, fags.

― Zionist, Sunday, 8 February 2004 07:54 (twenty-one years ago)

always with the nut sacks

― cinniblount (James Blount), Sunday, 8 February 2004 08:07 (twenty-one years ago)

get off isreal's chip sack and go smoke some fags, fish

― dfsgdfsg, Sunday, 8 February 2004 08:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Best revival ever. Pip pip!

― Matt (Matt), Sunday, 8 February 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.artsurround.co.uk/articles/queenvic/queenvic%26disraeli.jpg

^... Queen Victoria preparing to get off on Disraeli's nut sack

― rhghgdfh, Sunday, 8 February 2004 12:15 (twenty-one years ago)

one month passes...

March 16 is the anniversary.

rip.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 10 March 2004 06:02 (twenty-one years ago)

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