Are we living in a monoculture?

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When I travel, I get the impression that real difference, real pluralism doesn't exist. Each country, disappointingly, seems to be particular mainly in the way it has adapted to the 'monoculture' of 'the American way of life'.

Sure, when you live in the West you get a picture of the 'exoticism' and particularity of other countries. But when you get there you discover that your impression has been based on a sort of propaganda, on export products subsidised by the tourist industry and the government (who pay for the museums, underwrite the local film industry, subsidise 'folk culture', etc). The basic reality is usually some local flavour of people dressing in jeans, erecting satellite dishes, listening to rock and pop. Most of the films showing are American films dubbed into the local language. Most of the TV is American TV.

Even in so-called 'axis of evil' countries the cultural agenda has been set, negatively, by the US (Islamic states trying so hard to ignore the US that they ultimately fixate on it, North Korea playing with missiles to provoke the US into giving them aid or destroying them).

HOWEVER, there are glaring exceptions. If there were truly a monoculture, wouldn't we all buy our furniture from an American company? And yet Ikea is the 'monopoly' supplier of furniture; a Swedish company with a recognisably 'Swedish' agenda, selling us all 'the Swedish way of life'. If there were truly a monoculture, wouldn't we all drive American cars? But the US auto industry is struggling, and Japanese and German cars rule the planet. If there were a monoculture, wouldn't you be playing American games on an American console? Yet they're more likely to be Japanese. Wouldn't your corner grocery be an American-owned one, selling only American food? And yet it's more likely to be run by Koreans, Pakistanis, Vietnamese, Arabs, and to contain a wide variety of food imported from all over the world. And where are all the American restaurants? Monoculture can't live by burger bars alone.

When it comes down to it, the hegemony of the US, while all-pervading, is built on very flimsy foundations. It's mostly ideological -- transmitted through film and TV -- and military (although the US can really only afford to fight two wars at a time). It's not based on heavy industry or manufacturing, in which China is far ahead (thanks to low labour costs).

Now, the thing about domination through ideology is that it works when everybody wants to be on your side. It depends on charm and charisma. It depends on people working -- by their own free will -- to 'become more American': to smoke American cigarettes, to look and live like the characters in 'Friends'.

While that may have been the case throughout the 20th century, it looks like something has changed. The Americans are now counting less on 'charm' and more on 'might' to ensure their 'full-spectrum dominance'. And the question is, will that work? Can they do by sheer muscle power what they used to do by charm alone? Can the monoculture, already somewhat flimsy, be maintained by force?

Another way to put this is: is Ikea an anomaly (a monopoly at odds with the monoculture) or a harbinger of a future in which the world has no dominant 'way of life', but many 'differences' happily co-existing?

And another way to put it is: 'Is globalism a case of opening up world markets to American products, or it is a case of giving anybody anywhere a chance to break into global markets with a good idea?'

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 09:22 (twenty-two years ago)

i'd like to think the latter, but i doubt it. then again i live in australia.

gaz (gaz), Friday, 18 April 2003 09:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Gaz, I've never been to Australia. But, in your impression, is Australia Australia, or is it 'America with an Australian flavour'?

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 09:30 (twenty-two years ago)

i saw a recent Simpsons where they were really having a dig at IKEA - you have to wonder what lies behind the lame gags there

another thing that might fuel Momus' theory is that of the apparent decline and unpopularity of Mcdonalds that is now catching a hold. they're closing down outlets here and there around the world, they're introducing fruits and yoghurt at the counter in an effort to be seen as healthier.

stevem (blueski), Friday, 18 April 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

what sort of 'particularity' are you expecting in visiting a foriegn country? why is it that they have adapted to american culture and not that they have taken what they like/want from western culture and ignored the rest?

in your axis of evil para i don't understand what connection there is between the cultural agenda and N. Korea's nukes

H (Heruy), Friday, 18 April 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

European exotica/otherness is still present in the little details/differences - the inevitably wonky way that monoculture candy bars, burger bars, stars and bars are all 'customised' by non-Americans.

Andrew L (Andrew L), Friday, 18 April 2003 09:48 (twenty-two years ago)

meanwhile Madonna has apparently been observing that the British and Europeans know how to enjoy life more than but do not work as hard as Americans. heh, whatever Madge - we all know no-one works as hard as you anyway.

stevem (blueski), Friday, 18 April 2003 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

Momus,
the notion of australianness is pretty complex. the history isn't pleasant and certainly doesn't make for cohesive notions of identity. certainly our recent coalition (ahem) hasn't helped any idea of national identity. neither did the referendum where we declined republic status.
i'd say we've by and large accepted the schizophrenic notion(s) that a) greed is good and b) you should care about others.
is that american?

gaz (gaz), Friday, 18 April 2003 09:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Marvellous article in Oserver Food Monthly about the decline of McDonalds (plus another fine article about the UK pig industry).

Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:02 (twenty-two years ago)

what sort of 'particularity' are you expecting in visiting a foriegn country?

I guess I'm wanting a feeling of 'This place is so substantively different from the culture I was brought up in that it could be used as an alternative template for modern life'. What I instead usually get is 'This place used to be substantively different, but now contents itself with accepting the US model and 'catching up'' -- ie the sense that 'how we relate to modernity' and 'how we relate to America' are the same issue. And yet we know that, relatively recently (for instance, the Bauhaus and its attempts to define a very German 'modernity') there were ways to be 'modern' that were not ways to be 'American'.

why is it that they have adapted to american culture and not that they have taken what they like/want from western culture and ignored the rest?

Well, you may be right. But are the elements they've kept from their own culture 'progressive' and 'modernist'? (Brazilia is a nice example of a very regional approach to 'the modern', recognisably different from the US model.)

in your axis of evil para i don't understand what connection there is between the cultural agenda and N. Korea's nukes

North Korea's 'particularity' is very much expressed in military fly-bys, missile parades, people in stadia holding tiny fragments of the national flag, etc. That seems to be culture there. I hear Kim Il Sung is an aspiring film-maker, though, so I reserve my judgement until I see his first feature, 'Whooping Cranes At Torturer's Creek'.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that Australia is simply a suburub of the United States. It's depressing.

That said, I think Australia is one of the best countries in the world that you could hope to live in. I consider myself very lucky to have that privilege.

Andrew (enneff), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Here in Spain I've observed that, while American media pervades everything, everywhere, there is still a very strong concept of tradition and culture. Surprisingly, here in Barcelona the young people feel strong alliegance with their cultural heritage as Catalans. It's refreshing, in many ways.

Andrew (enneff), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:09 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, isn't that the perfect example of 'the glocal' -- that as national identities fragment, you get flight in two directions: towards micro-identities, the local, and towards macro-identities, the global?

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:12 (twenty-two years ago)

I notice fewer and fewer differences in Europe, haven't been to Asia in years. What's an American film anyway? Columbia=Sony, Universal=Vivendi, 20thCentFox=News Corp., German financing accounts for a HUGE % of hollywood production money. American films have to serve a world market to break even now. You could just as easily argue that the American voice has been sublimated to a bland world voice so that foreigners will buy the products.

McDonalds is shutting down outlets, okay, but there are still thousands. In Europe there's also Burger King, KFC and the rest. But in France there's "Free Time" avec le "Hit Poulet!" C'est magnifique, tres francais! It's as standardized and homogeneous as anything american. But France is an extremely standardized society.

As noted, IKEA is a great example. How is it Swedish? The design comes from Sweden, nothing is produced there. Totally globalized. Not even the Swedes could afford to buy furniture produced in Sweden.

Despite perhaps justified concerns re: a more militarized US foreign policy, I really don't think the gov't has much to do with the willingness of the world to buy certain US products, i.e. films, fast food, levis. People love that stuff. So do I--SOMETIMES. The problem, like anything, is overconsumption. Die Hard to the exclusion of the hundreds of great small US films that often people outside the states don't see, or only in art houses. Whoppers are great, but you'll get fat, and you'll contract cancer and diabetes if you only eat junk.

The problem is, Europeans don't go to European films. Part of that has to do with distribution monopolies, but part of it has to do with the desire to be entertained, rather than instructed. Similarly, the power of fast food is the "fast" part. Even the French don't always have time for a two hour lunch.

Sorry for the ramble. It's a really interesting question. I guess my point is that there are billions of willing victims out there.

probably would be a better world if those Thai children weren't forced by Kathy Lee Gifford and Nike to make clothes and could go back to being prostitutes for Japanese sex tourists.

Skottie, Friday, 18 April 2003 10:23 (twenty-two years ago)

a) How overwhelming is this cultural hegemony though? Would I be mistaken in thinking that there's still places on earth where the US concerns them rather less than other overbearing powers (eg Tibet, Chechnya, East Timor etc)

b) IMO the 'US' is just a metonym for a market-dominated monoculture (which also IMO is the lesser of two evils compared to micro-nationalist fervor)

dave q, Friday, 18 April 2003 10:25 (twenty-two years ago)

in France there's "Free Time" avec le "Hit Poulet!" C'est magnifique, tres francais!

And it went tres bust a couple of years ago.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

RIP Freetime!


IMO the 'US' is just a metonym for a market-dominated monoculture (which also IMO is the lesser of two evils compared to micro-nationalist fervor)

That's a good point. One that is missed by many.


Also.....

People don't even know they've been co-opted sometimes. I was recently talking to a German univ. student who said to me, "We have a concept here in Germany called 'the American Dream.' Have you ever heard of it?" I almost choked on my Bratwurst.

Skottie, Friday, 18 April 2003 10:30 (twenty-two years ago)

But that's very interesting. What did he mean? Did he think the Germans had invented the American dream? (Not so far fetched when you consider that those US city skylines do owe quite a bit to the Bauhaus.)

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:34 (twenty-two years ago)

(And that hamburgers come from Hamburg.)

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I think he thought that the Germans had analyzed American life and discovered the concept or mythos of the "american dream." Equality, self-reliance, work = success, et al. Not that Germany had created the dream or ever realized it in their own culture. In fact, I think he was contrasting the American Dream to the lack of an analogous German Dream, which is complicated by so much self-loathing and sometimes self-pity that, particularly younger Germans don't like to identify as Germans. He didn't seem to realize that "the American Dream" is a product of the home-grown American myth production cycle.

But the Bauhaus point is OTM, leading to the ubiquitous International Style which is, of course, international! Kind of.

Skottie, Friday, 18 April 2003 10:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I was listening to a documentary on BBC World Service last night about Coldplay. They were in Berlin, and the BBC asked a Berlin journalist why so many Germans came to see a British band. She said 'We've been taught, because of our history, that being German is wrong somehow. So we prefer to listen to English bands.'

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 10:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Perhaps the Germans are just kicking themselves for having missed a trick, the English got away with far more shit for longer and still inexplicably smell like roses in comparison

dave q, Friday, 18 April 2003 10:58 (twenty-two years ago)

There's only subjective monoculture. You are looking into a culture to find your own. It is hard to escape your own culture - no, in fact impossible. I love watching Japanese films but all I can see is my own culture.

nathalie (nathalie), Friday, 18 April 2003 11:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I haven't been abroad that much. Can I reduce this question to the US? I moved around quite a bit growing up, but just around south-west Virginia, South Carolina, and Louisiana. I was really scared about being a new place. So, each time I would end up forcing myself to find similarities so I'd feel safer. I would meet the class clown and equate him in my head to the one at my last school. The biggest dorks at this school would be the biggest dorks at the last school. Same popular girls, same everything. In my head, I would sometimes even forget their real names. It was much easier for me to see these people as being the same ones from before but with slightly different bodies.
Then, of course, other things stayed the same too - because everywhere you go there are Walmarts and Food Lions and parking lots and malls. I felt like I'd seen it all before.

Ok, back to topic. Someone else to thread!

Sarah McLUsky (coco), Friday, 18 April 2003 11:46 (twenty-two years ago)

'We've been taught, because of our history, that being German is wrong somehow.

I have had this exact conversation with a number of German students, early 20s usually. It's explicitly understood. They have an aversion to German flags, being thought of as German, etc. Of course "Germany" is not very old, relatively, and that may have something to do with it, just since Bismarck, or Weimar, or WWII, or 1990, take your pick of historical milestones.

There is also an element of reverse (and perverse) self-importance. "our guilt is so great you cannot possibly understand."

Oh, come on.

Skottie, Friday, 18 April 2003 12:07 (twenty-two years ago)

>I guess I'm wanting a feeling of 'This place is so substantively different from the culture I was brought up in that it could be used as an alternative template for modern life'. What I instead usually get is 'This place used to be substantively different, but now contents itself with accepting the US model and 'catching up''>

I don't think I understand what you mean by "substantively different" means - whatever point in history you go back to you can find similar family, gov't , social structures across different societies, so I'm a little dubious about the idea that at any point there was that huge a leap between cultures. You can find still significant differences between societies, ways of thinking about how you relate to society that can throw you offbalance when you understand them, they just tend to be things that are subtler and don't jump out and hit you over the head.

re Nathalie's point of "subjective monoculture" - I agree but there are also many ppl who have grown up (and will continue to do so) between 2 or more cultures and so have a unique perspective on them. What would you call that I wonder?

H (Heruy), Friday, 18 April 2003 12:15 (twenty-two years ago)

Broader-minded. One hopes.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 April 2003 12:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Isn't this 'Americanization' limited to metropoli? Can you not still find 'exotic otherness' off the beaten path? I mean, there are people out there who have never even heard of America, and there are people who Western civ have not even 'discovered' yet, right?

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 April 2003 13:43 (twenty-two years ago)

whatever point in history you go back to you can find similar family, gov't , social structures across different societies

Of course this is a subjective matter. Yes, there are more 'local' things off the beaten path. It's a question of degree. How different is 'substantively different'? How different is 'different enough'? Can we imagine visiting Japan pre-1860s (when it was 'closed to the world') and finding something otherworldly? Japan still has otherworldly elements to it, and yet it also has a lot in common with the west. Surely it's a question of where you look?

At this point (drumroll) I'd like to bring in Alain Badiou, or rather a paraphrase of his arguments from a review of one of his books (apologies to those who were on the 'Indie, Class...' thread, where I also quoted this):

'While purporting to "respect difference," the acolytes of otherness are "clearly horrified," Badiou observes, "by any vigorously sustained difference." Arguing that genuine difference entails conflict, Badiou contends that "difference" is really a recipe for homogeneity and consensus. By this token, left-wing militants, along with Christian and Islamic fundamentalists and African practitioners of clitorectomy, are stigmatized as "bad others" and disinvited from those "celebrations of diversity" sponsored in campus halls and advertising agencies. "Good others," on the other hand, exhibit differences that are remarkably consonant with "the identity of a wealthy West." Indeed, with its mantra of "inclusion" and its vagueness about "the exact political meaning of the identity being promoted," identity politics supplies exotic grist for the corporate mills of Western democracies. Thus, in Badiou's view, "difference," cast in the image and likeness of consumerism, joins "rights" as rhetorical camouflage for Western economic and military domination.'

(Me again) So, in answer to H's question, the degree of difference I'm talking about would be the degree of difference sufficient to cause conflict (since 'genuine difference entails conflict'). It would be the degree of difference that would go beyond what you could put in a Janet Jackson video or a 'multi-culti' advertisement. It would be the degree of difference that would lead to differences of opinion about whether the 'other' concerned was a 'good other' or a 'bad other'.

It goes without saying that conflict does not have to be mortal conflict, though, and that the fact that we might be prepared to call, say, clitorectomy a practise of 'bad others' does not mean that we have the moral right to invade the countries where it's practised and eradicate their difference in the name of 'universal human rights'.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 13:50 (twenty-two years ago)

...so then what should we do? To draw out your implicit parallel with Iraq, if invasion is not the answer, what is? Or is the argument that the question can't be answered and nothing should be done?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 April 2003 13:56 (twenty-two years ago)

...eliminate instantaneous communication/quick transportation.

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Fletrejet to thread!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually I wasn't talking specifically about Iraq. I think there's a Frankenstein's monster argument about Iraq which actually goes a little way to justifying the invasion, ie Saddam is a western creation, a golem we pumped up to scare Iran with. So, having unleashed him and armed him, we have some 'right' to decommission him. It would be a very different matter to invade Iran, a country that had a genuine popular revolution to unseat the West's man, the Shah.

But in answer to your question 'what then should we do', surely the answer is 'We co-exist'. Even with 'bad others', others we cannot 'understand'. Diversity is, in itself, a higher value than whatever moral perspective we currently subscribe to.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

surely the answer is 'We co-exist'

That's pretty damn glib when it comes to things like clitorectomy.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Well seriously Ned are you going to invade a country because they practise clitorectomy? What about male circumcision? What else don't you like that's going on in the world?

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

The problem is, Europeans don't go to European films
in sweden, 'fucking amal' (english title 'show me love - !!) was more popular than titanic. and i think it'd be fair to say that the full monty in britain was more of a touchstone, it's songs were everywhere.

i still find places vastly different. i've been on an unintentional tour of english L cities recently, liverpool leeds and london. people look and act in different ways. in liverpool, they just walk right up to you and speak to you. they wear their caps at different angles, even if they bring out st george for the football.

there are still places, very provincial places, where people are deeply suspicious of america. my dad won't watch american comedies, and i know pubs that would have chipboard on the windows in twenty minutes if they tried to serve budweiser.
but in metropoli you're as equal to find anti-amricans, ones who use hip-hop slang, and hate george bush, and wear converse. who'll take on american signs in a progressive and selective way.
so americanisation is a kind of hybridising, enforced specialisation.

matthew james (matthew james), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd remind you Momus that you are the one who brought up invasion into the conversation. There is also a huge difference between invasion and campaigning/exerting moral pressure to change something you believe is wrong. To use FGM as an example, in countries it is practiced, you also have local communities who are working/fighting to change that so you can support them in their work. That is a huge ways off from invasion.

H (Heruy), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:10 (twenty-two years ago)

What do people think of Badiou's idea that 'human rights' and 'respect for difference' are in fact part of Western imperial strategy? Do you agree?

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:13 (twenty-two years ago)

(Or I should say 'respect for a small, not substantive, margin of difference'...)

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:14 (twenty-two years ago)

This is a little off-topic, but why did we (the West) do virtually nothing about Apartheid? Someone school me please.

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Short answer: there was no money in it.

Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Your question sidesteps H's point to a degree, though, does it not? If Badiou is saying that resistance on the ground to such a practice as FGM is ultimately a part of Western imperial strategy, then frankly I think he's full of it.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

Okay, pretend you're a diplomat/State Dept. official. How do you justify not trying to give freedom to black people in S Africa?

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

But (Ned) then you get a situation like the US siding with the 'Iraqi opposition'. The position of the US becomes the determining factor in the debate. If the US is anti-FGM (even getting to call it 'mutilation' rather than 'the noble way of the ancestors' or whatever the practitioners call it) then FGM's days are numbered, with or without invasion. The anti-FGMers 'on the ground' are already harbingers of a process of Americanisation which will have serious consequences for the country in which they live, and will probably not stop at FGM practises.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Not having read Badiou (and the review didn't give me enuf info) I'm a little unclear as to how "rights" are a tool of imperial strategy. Does this mean that ppl in third world should not have the same rights as ppl in the west as the rights/concept of rights are a foreign import/ attempt at homogenization?

(sidenote on S. Africa - a major turning point in struggle was when the banks, Citibank etc. decided that the bad publicity they were getting from protests offset their profits and pulled out, that pushed S. African businesses and some officials to seek accommodation with ANC and to try and make changes locally to improve relations. Coule of interesting articles I wil try and dig up for you.)

H (Heruy), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Michèle Lalonde Speak white


Speak white
il est si beau de vous entendre
parler de Paradise Lost
ou du profil gracieux et anonyme qui tremble dans les sonnets de Shakespeare

nous sommes un peuple inculte et bègue
mais ne sommes pas sourds au génie d'une langue
parlez avec l'accent de Milton et Byron et Shelley et Keats
speak white
et pardonnez-nous de n'avoir pour réponse
que les chants rauques de nos ancêtres
et le chagrin de Nelligan

speak white
parlez de choses et d'autres
parlez-nous de la Grande Charte
ou du monument à Lincoln
du charme gris de la Tamise
de l'eau rose du Potomac
parlez-nous de vos traditions
nous sommes un peuple peu brillant
mais fort capable d'apprécier
toute l'importance des crumpets
ou du Boston Tea Party

mais quand vous really speak white
quand vous get down to brass tacks

pour parler du gracious living
et parler du standard de vie
et de la Grande Société
un peu plus fort alors speak white
haussez vos voix de contremaîtres
nous sommes un peu durs d'oreille
nous vivons trop près des machines
et n'entendons que notre souffle au-dessus des outils

speak white and loud
qu'on vous entende
de Saint-Henri à Saint-Domingue
oui quelle admirable langue
pour embaucher
donner des ordres
fixer l'heure de la mort à l'ouvrage
et de la pause qui rafraîchit
et ravigote le dollar

speak white
tell us that God is a great big shot
and that we're paid to trust him
speak white
parlez-nous production profits et pourcentages
speak white
c'est une langue riche
pour acheter
mais pour se vendre
mais pour se vendre à perte d'âme
mais pour se vendre

ah !
speak white
big deal
mais pour vous dire
l'éternité d'un jour de grève
pour raconter
une vie de peuple-concierge
mais pour rentrer chez nous le soir
à l'heure où le soleil s'en vient crever au-dessus des ruelles
mais pour vous dire oui que le soleil se couche oui
chaque jour de nos vies à l'est de vos empires
rien ne vaut une langue à jurons
notre parlure pas très propre
tachée de cambouis et d'huile

speak white
soyez à l'aise dans vos mots
nous sommes un peuple rancunier
mais ne reprochons à personne
d'avoir le monopole
de la correction de langage

dans la langue douce de Shakespeare
avec l'accent de Longfellow
parlez un français pur et atrocement blanc
comme au Viêt-Nam au Congo
parlez un allemand impeccable
une étoile jaune entre les dents
parlez russe parlez rappel à l'ordre parlez répression
speak white
c'est une langue universelle
nous sommes nés pour la comprendre
avec ses mots lacrymogènes
avec ses mots matraques

speak white
tell us again about Freedom and Democracy
nous savons que liberté est un mot noir
comme la misère est nègre
et comme le sang se mêle à la poussière des rues d'Alger ou de Little Rock

speak white
de Westminster à Washington relayez-vous
speak white comme à Wall Street
white comme à Watts
be civilized
et comprenez notre parler de circonstance
quand vous nous demandez poliment
how do you do
et nous entendez vous répondre
we're doing all right
we're doing fine
we
are not alone

nous savons
que nous ne sommes pas seuls.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LALONDE, Michèle, Speak White, poème-affiche, l'Hexagone, 1974.

Sébastien Chikara (Sébastien Chikara), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:34 (twenty-two years ago)

The whole concept of 'universal human rights' seems deeply suspect and unjustifiable to me. As Tony Blair is fond of saying, rights are always accompanied by duties, just as representation is accompanied by taxation (that last bit is me, not Tony). These are contracts you can set up within a nation, but not impose on foreign nations. The whole idea of 'rights' is culture-bound, and 'rights' are a wooden horse by which you insert your whole set of cultural values into someone else's culture.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

what I'm getting from your post is 'these are right's we (in the west) can enjoy but you can't'

What is wrong with the concept of universal human rights? When a country signs onto the Declaration it allows its citizens to point out that the gov't has affirmed these rights and thus can be held responsible for its actions.

H (Heruy), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:39 (twenty-two years ago)

The whole idea of 'rights' is culture-bound, and 'rights' are a wooden horse by which you insert your whole set of cultural values into someone else's culture.

I don't think it's that cut and dry. That just seems to be the most cynical interpretation and while it may be true in many cases, I think there can be exceptions.

oops (Oops), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Nice poem, Sébastien! Though still within the 'good others' parameters one would encounter within a cultural studies department -- still, in other words, 'speaking white', despite 'dark sarcasm'.

H: If you believe there's nothing wrong with the concept of universal human rights, you also believe that there's nothing wrong with monoculture. So presumably you do not mourn the eradication of genuine difference. There is nothing worrying, for you, about a society with only one concept of 'the right way to live'.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 18 April 2003 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Sounds like classic military strategy to me.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 20 April 2003 00:09 (twenty-two years ago)


When we impose 'rights' on another country, it tends to mean 'the right to be more like us and less like yourselves'. The 'right to think and be different' is invariably eroded. So monoculture advances.

This seems to be most the case with islands. Although I love both England and Japan, those two countries (and people) seem to be most prone to this behavior. Hence I can sometimes get extremely frustrated when being in those two countries, especially Japan. It's also tied to religion as well: any most religious groups tends to think in terms of out and in group. I am thinking of creationism and conservatism as well. I wonder how much they are tied together.

nathalie (nathalie), Sunday, 20 April 2003 06:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Just another small question (sorry about these hit& runs, but I don't feel adequately equipped to answer the second part of your question re:charm vs might).

Seeing that the UN has actively stated that Democracy is now deemed the paradigm form of government that would seem to cast all other types of government into the confused hell of 'bad otherness'. Are you willing to stand behind 'diversity' in protection of these bad others? (Or is democracy a special case?)

Cozen (Cozen), Sunday, 20 April 2003 08:32 (twenty-two years ago)

No, democracy is not a special case. Even if democracy were the best (or 'least worst') form of government, by becoming the only form of government it would become a threat, an orthodoxy, an obstacle to human R&D, just as Windows becomes a threat if it knocks out every other OS, not matter how good it may be.

There are all sorts of reasons -- apart from the fact that people can be stupid and selfish -- why democracy may not have all the answers. For instance, if China had been a democracy when overpopulation became a problem, they could never have imposed the 'one child per family' policy which saved them (it would have got a democratic government voted out of office as well as infringed all sorts of human rights).

Momus (Momus), Sunday, 20 April 2003 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Can i just say thanks to Momus for provoking and sustaining such an interesting thread.

That's all.

bert (bert), Sunday, 20 April 2003 14:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm living in a viticulture right now. Alhoa.


If there were truly a monoculture, wouldn't we all drive American cars?

There is a fundamental problem of definition running rapant through this thread. There's way too much mistaking of the symbols of (American) culture with "culture." American cars/McDonalds/Starbucks do not define a culture. The are signifiers, they are markers, they are ambassadors, they are the invading van, but they are not the embodiment of culture. That's why it's so easy for "other" cultures to expropriate these symbols and retain their own culture.

client states
Like Western Europe? Iraq? Oh, come on.

Skottie, Sunday, 20 April 2003 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

what is interesting to me is that the US is probably the country that does the least to protect it's 'indigenous culture' though i am sure many would claim there is no such thing and yet it is the most powerful export americans have. every other advanced country has instituted protectionist quotas for cultural content and yet everyone still clamours for american product. why is this? is it because the protectionsim fosters an elitism that causes artists to disregard the feelings of their audiences because they have a protected niche that allows them to act with impunity with regard to public coformities and taste. the passport idea ignores the fact that these countries that are oppressors fight to keep their people within their borders. i don't think universal human rights can be applied from without but they must be claimed by those that are oppressed and when claimed it is duty for free people's to uphold these claims at least in some manner, it's why is was justifiable for the us to maintain a presence in europe during the cold war and to now work to check north korean aggression(immune from the monoculture through complete isolation, radios soldered to receive one govt run station, etc). ikea-"Entrepreneurs in Sweden were painted as pariahs. Ikea founder Ingvar Kamprad told Fortune magazine that Sweden's tax bureaucrats and politicians at the time routinely accused him of "using people" and "just wanting to make a profit."

keith (keithmcl), Sunday, 20 April 2003 21:58 (twenty-two years ago)

I second bert's thanks, extremely interesting thread.

I feel Momus' point about human rights being a sort of secular religion has not been satisfactorily been countered yet. To oversimplify (and indeed misrepresent) for the sake of an example: if "we" say "humans have a right to life" and "they" say: "adulterers should be killed on suspicion" what are our convictions that we're right founded on? If it is not that we think our ideas are better, must it not be a belief in some unqualified "good", and that we feel this "good" is better than those others' "good" only because we don't claim it was decreed by a deity (although we've received it in much the same way)?

OleM (OleM), Sunday, 20 April 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

(I know, unwarranted assumptions about various ILXors's secularity there. Sorry.)

OleM (OleM), Sunday, 20 April 2003 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

I suppose the problems involved in constructing Western style democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq tend to suggest that the world is not yet a monoculture. It bothers me that having concluded that rural Afghanis are 'not like us' the press have mostly left and forgotten about the place. As far as I can tell the situation now is not dissimilar to the one that existed before the Taliban rose to power: rival warlords controlling much of the countryside. I can remember hearing interviews at the time of the rise of the Taliban where people said that they preferred them because, unlike the warlords, they had principles.

During this latest war the press seemed to portray the Iraqi people as innocents, as people much like us who just happened to be in the grip of a brutal dictatorship. Now it's ended, we still don't know whether there is a majority of people in Iraq whose dreams of a just society is expressed by the concept of a secular, multi-ethnic state with a democratic government. According to this article from the Guardian, many of the Shia population want an Islamic state with Sharia law.

I was thinking more about the subtle differences in values and outlook which are difficult to define and yet in experience are immediately tangible in relation to Momus' question about whether Australia is America with an Australian flavour. One interesting example relates to the popularity of country music amongst rural Australians. American country music was embraced by rural Australians as their own music decades ago. Away from the racially-segregated context in which it developed side by side with the blues but separate from it, American country music was embraced with equal enthusiasm by rural Aboriginal Australians. The interesting thing about Australian country music is how different the lyrical content of its songs are compared with their American counterparts.

Amarga (Amarga), Sunday, 20 April 2003 23:25 (twenty-two years ago)


This thread is interesting and valuable.

Re: the question of universal "human rights".

No doubt our notion of what is right or wrong depends to a certain extent on cultural background, context, personal viewpoint and bias and so on.

What is most disturbing to me is the fact those who claim that their actions, or the actions of their country or leader, are motivated by human rights concerns, seem able to overlook the fact that their country nukes, napalms, and cluster bombs (etc...) innocent people.

So believing in the value of a set of universal human rights or at least claiming to do so, doesn't seem to be able to do much in terms of holding one back from full-out violations of some pretty basic human values.

A set of universal principles for global cooperation might not be so bad, if only we would apply them to ourselves and not only to others.

logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 05:50 (twenty-two years ago)

< / Immanuel Kant>

Yes, that's always the problem, isn't it? I'm not making fun, I am agreeing.

I think it all starts with the desire (or need) to travel and also have a home too. This goes way back. When people move around (now we do this in cyberspace as well), they see things, they covet the things they see, and the people who live in the traveled-to places see the travelers and the things they have and they want those too (including the freedom to travel).

In all of human history, whether we are talking about napalm, infected blankets, opium, chocolate or salt, there has only been one way of determining who gets to travel and who gets the stuff that traveling brings, including ideas like human rights. It doesn't make it morally right, but what are the alternatives?

felicity (felicity), Monday, 21 April 2003 06:11 (twenty-two years ago)


the alternative seems to be pretty clear: some version of global annihilation.

no joke ... we need a set of principles for global cooperation. most likely there is no universal "moral" basis. only the universal situation that if we don't agree that something needs to be done to learn to live together, then at some stage it's game over for everyone.

and whatever the set of principles agreed upon, there needs to be an acknowledgement that "regime change begins at home".

logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 06:29 (twenty-two years ago)


the last phrase is not intended as a specific political statement.

logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 06:32 (twenty-two years ago)

When you counter the specific with the general, you can never be wrong, so it's a bit unfair.

Specifics, please?

felicity (felicity), Monday, 21 April 2003 06:44 (twenty-two years ago)


Felicity: it wasn't really a counter. Yes these statements are general, and simplistic. Not very helpful, I think, just some crude grunts that international cooperation doesn't seem to be working very well lately, though so far I'm fine, except that my right to consume jet fuel was threatened for a time, but now it's not. So there's really nothing to be bothered about at all ...

logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 07:06 (twenty-two years ago)


... now so long as Star Alliance doesn't go out of business I'll be able to use all those points I've collected and fly to some more exotic countries and enjoy a few thoughts about différance,
(or is it différence?)

logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 07:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh I know, it's just that you said it was disturbing and I was agreeing that it is disturbing and asking if there was an alternative and I guess you're just being honest, which sounds like the best we can hope for.

felicity (felicity), Monday, 21 April 2003 07:30 (twenty-two years ago)


It seems that the alternative, which is something like an international organization that agrees to disagree, but at least try to agree on the stuff that most people seem to agree is really, really important, has been thrown out the window.

Maybe despair would be a more helpful emotion than hope?

logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 07:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I think that people debating the human rights questions and others right here is part of the work towards coming to international agreement. Organizations are only made of people, anyway. And that is all I am inviting you to do. I come in peace.

I choose to hope that in your heart of hearts you could not possibly mean the second part of your statement.

felicity (felicity), Monday, 21 April 2003 07:54 (twenty-two years ago)


Oops we seem to be disagreeing when I thought we were agreeing.

Yes of course. Peace. Let's at least agree on that.


logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 08:34 (twenty-two years ago)

The Zapatistas' slogan, part of their struggle to counter the globalization from above with a 'globalization from below', is 'One no, many yeses'.

'Against the monoculture of economic globalization,' comments New Internationalist magazine, we must demand 'a world where many worlds fit.'

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 April 2003 09:09 (twenty-two years ago)


Momus: no slight to the Zapatistas' struggle, which from what I know is worthy, but the tone of that article was quite special.

I have to admit I'm suspicious of anyone who commands me to demand any kind of world at all. The only kind of world I demand is one where I can openly doubt anyone with such demands. Seems to me that what we need first of all is a lot more doubt.

logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 09:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick, considering all you've said on this thread, I find it funny that when I offered you Paul Kingsnorth's just-out book One No, Many Yeses you pooh-poohed it as being a bit No Logo/Sept 10th without bothering to even give it a glance.

Maybe you'll check it out this time?

suzy (suzy), Monday, 21 April 2003 09:55 (twenty-two years ago)


Skepticism is the best defence for this situation:

http://www.nancho.net/graph/mosechu-.jpg

logjaman, Monday, 21 April 2003 10:07 (twenty-two years ago)

when I offered you Paul Kingsnorth's just-out book One No, Many Yeses you pooh-poohed it as being a bit No Logo/Sept 10th without bothering to even give it a glance.

Really? I am hoist on my own petard puppet string, then. But maybe I got radicalised in Portugal, where I was seeing a lot of Zapatista graffiti at Coimbra University.

Actually, I noticed when skimming the New Internationalist article I link to that it was published almost exactly on September 10th 2001, and does read like a relic from a different age. We now feel nostalgia for an age where our biggest problems were questioning globalization, Clinton and NAFTA and their trade plans. The capitalist machine has been thoroughly militarised since then, and outrageous imperialism has replaced the merely 'not-so-level playing field' we used to hear so much about. The radical posters I'm seeing around Berlin are now having to say some version of 'Stop the war on Iraq so that we can get back to the war on capitalism!'

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 April 2003 11:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Radicalised in Portugal, my arçe. Stopping the war on Iraq is part and parcel of the war on corruption in capitalism, for all the right reasons. Kingsnorth's book is ammo in this, it provides people who question the regime behind invading Iraq in 'wartime' and exploiting it in 'peacetime' with a primer for understanding Zapatistas and other oppositional movements around the world. It's a lot more 9/12 than 9/10, as is Eric Schlosser's Reefer Madness, a history/analysis of the underground economies generated by pot, porn and migrant workers (another group who might benefit from American citizenship, so to become like other American citizens, who would not tolerate working in such conditions and for such low wages).

suzy (suzy), Monday, 21 April 2003 12:05 (twenty-two years ago)

outrageous imperialism has replaced the merely 'not-so-level playing field'

And furthermore, most anti-capitalist protestors I know always complained about the imperialist impulses in the private sector (corporate censorship, diktats over behaviour outside working hours, stonewalling of the press, eschewing responsibility, exploiting those who are most vulnerable wherever in the world) and maintain that these actions merely pointed the way to what we've got now, because not enough people bothered to question authority when it was handing them a paycheque or a buy-one-get-one-free deal.

How can you say one has been 'replaced' by the other when there is no *real* difference in power or influence?

suzy (suzy), Monday, 21 April 2003 12:18 (twenty-two years ago)

As a seventh/eighth generation anglo-Australian I find myself wishing I were a first or second generation wog-Australian instead. Their identity is so much more compelling and strong. Anglo-Australian is just a grey, silent majority of pseudo-Victorian morality, knee-jerk leftism and politically correct stiflingness.

Australian culture is really an ever-shifting culture of immigration and seven generations is too long ago to feel part of the culture of immigration. I have no ties to an elsewhere. I only have one passport. I must be the only person in this whole damn street to have only one passport. The only other anglo has a British one too.

So, anyway, officially Australia is multicultural, therefore not part of the monoculture. Personally I'd say it's polycultural coz multicultural now just means eating spaghetti and stir-fry one night a week. Polycultural has not been overused and so it still has impact.

toraneko (toraneko), Monday, 21 April 2003 13:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Australia is multicultural, therefore not part of the monoculture

But the monoculture is multicultural! The US is the model melting pot society -- everyone comes, ultimately, from somewhere else. All its customs are synthetic and bastardised. This is why it's such an efficient socialisation machine; everybody in the US has left behind some kind of 'traditional culture' and gone, voluntarily, through the sausage machine of American socialisation. And now they're exporting the technology all over the world. You don't need to go to America because America will come to you.

America's very claims to be racially blind, religiously neutral, an equal opportunities employer etc are what makes it so able to erase other cultural forms, which cling to things like racial difference, religious custom, gender etc as defining cultural essences.

This is the paradox: in order for a country to be truly 'different' it must fail to tolerate difference. If it tolerates difference, it just becomes a multicultural melting pot like all the others. This is why big cities all tend to resemble each other, whereas the countryside maintains some distinctiveness. This is also the reason for the paradox that I keep coming up against: that the liberal traveller who seeks to immerse himself in some truly different culture must enter into some weird pact with the most conservative, foreigner-hating elements there. He must be on the side of those who want to (in terms, for instance, of Japan) kill Christian missionaries and keep the ports closed, rather than those who rush to welcome him and his ilk. In embracing 'the other', he embraces those who reject 'the other'.

And the opposite is true. In championing 'the other' I help undermine real difference. The other must be left to champion itself in order not to lost its own identity and have it replaced with a plastic simulacrum. Because the other is not, initially, 'other' to itself. Once I start to make it self-conscious of itself as 'other' by imposing on it my perception of it, it starts to become 'other' for itself, it changes quickly into a tourist town, a fake, a spectacle, a souvenir. I've actually witnessed whole towns transformed into simulacra of themselves in my lifetime, including my home town, Edinburgh, which is now hyper self-conscious, and has become 'the Edinburgh Experience' rather than just Edinburgh.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:09 (twenty-two years ago)

There goes the neighborhood.

felicity (felicity), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:38 (twenty-two years ago)

it feels like we're living in a service station.

RJG (RJG), Monday, 21 April 2003 15:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Toraneko, you might want to explain what Australians mean by 'wog' - it's used differently elsewhere, and in many places is a horribly racist term approaching the level of 'nigger', except it is rather outmoded. I know that's not how you mean it at all.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Once I start to make it self-conscious of itself as 'other' by imposing on it my perception of it, it starts to become 'other' for itself, it changes quickly into a tourist town, a fake, a spectacle, a souvenir.

God Emperor of Dune finally makes sense, actually.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

TS: Tourism SUX vs Tourism ROX...FITE!

oops (Oops), Monday, 21 April 2003 16:08 (twenty-two years ago)

God Emperor of Dune finally makes sense, actually.

You're going to have to explain that, Ned Emperor of Prune.

Momus (Momus), Monday, 21 April 2003 17:40 (twenty-two years ago)

*bows with a wink*

One of the plot elements/background detail of that book -- fourth in the series -- is that it is set thousands of years after the 'god emperor' Leto took control. Arrakis aka Dune had a highly developed and unique culture, the Fremen, with specific social, political and religious practices and beliefs; as part of Leto's own particular evolution and control of the society he took over, he slowly reduced everything and anything about the Fremen to being a tourist act -- described in the book as 'Museum Fremen,' enacting shows for religious pilgrims. Frank Herbert wasn't coming up with anything new per se in this depiction and I'd have to reread the book to understand the exact motivations of the character Leto in this instance, but I seem to recall it being a case of 'perception' writ large, to use your terminology, one of control and marketing, though the latter term isn't used from what I recall. Given the inevitable links and parallels this discussion has had with what has happened in Iraq, the comparison and connection sprang to mind. Also, since the whole Dune series sprang out of Herbert's own experiences in the Middle East, in a combination of reflecting on the land, the people, its resources and a consideration of what drives the phenomena of messiahs, it too can be seen as a take on the 'other' from the point of view of the West, shaping visions.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 21 April 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Martin, this website will tell you everything you need to know about the Australian use of the word 'wog'. Coming from the UK, it's a word I still have problems saying. When I moved here, one of the most popular comedy theatre shows was called 'Wogs Out Of Work'; a title that would surely lead to a prosecution for race hatred and some broken heads in the UK.

Amarga (Amarga), Monday, 21 April 2003 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Toraneko, one of the penalties of being part of the dominant cultural group is that your culture is invisible to you. It's like often people believe that they've not got an accent, it's just people who live in other places who do. There is a simple remedy. Move to somewhere where you are a foreigner!

Amarga (Amarga), Tuesday, 22 April 2003 00:01 (twenty-two years ago)


This is the paradox: in order for a country to be truly 'different' it must fail to tolerate difference.

Another interesting post in an interesting and worthwhile thread, Momus, but I'm not sure I agree with this statement. Yes, Japan, though actively participating in the world economy manages to keep itself culturally separate from the "Monoculture" partially by creating its own monoculture with deeply ingrained and institionalized discriminatory practices. Thanks, Meiji Architects!

But co-existence of different cultures/racial groups is nothing uniquely western. There are many quite 'different' places (perhaps India is a prime example) that are historically fairly tolerant of different cultures. These are multicultural societies, quite distinct from the western model.

Trips to places that fewer travellers go, for whatever reason, are often the most interesting but I don't think this has anything to do with these countries being xenophobic monocultures. Myanmar, for example, is a good place to get away from global culture, largely because there is so much racial and cultural diversity in the country (albeit held together by a non-democratic regime with very questionable human rights).

logjaman, Tuesday, 22 April 2003 01:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Hmm, yes, I'm not sure about that paradox either now.

Let me look at this in a more personal way. I live an extremely rootless life. A couple of months ago I was living in Paris, now I'm living in Berlin. Before that it was Tokyo, and before that New York. I may be an extreme case, but I don't think my life is unusual or against the grain. It's just an accelerated version of how most of us live these days.

Now, sometimes I feel like 'I live everywhere'. But other times I feel like 'I live nowhere'. They're both true. I find myself meeting the same kind of people whichever city I live in, usually musicians from somewhere else. My latest aquaintances here in Berlin are a musician from Budapest, a Jewish-French musician who came here from college in London, and a web / graphic designer from Leeds... But really I could as easily have met these people in Tokyo. And, despite our different roots, we all have a lot in common: a certain rootlessness, a connection to transnational cultures like the web, the music industry, 'design culture'. We resemble the internet in that we're everywhere and nowhere at the same time. We are the monoculture. 'We are the world'!

But of course we're not. Difference does exist, and in fact we're outnumbered by it.

Some areas of Berlin are now being occupied by 'us'. The block I'm living in has really just two types of people in it: old people who lived here when it was still East Germany, and younger people by and large like me, who've arrived within the last ten years. The old people have amazingly baroque flats full of chintzy bric-a-brac. The younger ones (and even me, despite some initial resistance) go to the huge Ikea out at Spandau. As a result, if you went into one of the oldsters' apartments (I catch glimpses when UPS or FedEx delivers some package from NY or Tokyo to the old man who lives alone with his dog next door) you get a real sense of 'the original style of this place', a strong link to the vanished state of East Germany. It's fascinating, because it's so 'other'.

So I've tried to give my apartment some 'local flavour' by buying secondhand granny tablecloths, Karl Marx posters and pseudo-baroque furniture from nearby markets and secondhand stores. But all to no avail: the irony implicit is what shines through, rather than any real 'East German-ness'. As soon as it crosses the threshold to my flat, the furniture, once authentic, becomes ironic. And that irony is a quintessentially monocultural perspective. Irony in this case is no more than a form of sneaking sympathy for the thing it is driving out.

It seems pretty certain that when the old people in this building die, the connections of this area with East Germany, the communist state, will get more and more tenuous. The flats will get more 'vanilla', more 'latte', more 'Ikea', more 'monocultural', despite the apparent diversity (racial and national) of those who will live in them.

It's almost impossible to imagine how this process could be reversed, except by something as radical as the rebuilding of the Berlin wall. But strange things can happen, and happen very fast. If SARS, for instance, gets a lot more serious it's not impossible that we may all be forbidden to travel, and many areas will be quarantined. And that might respresent the end of the 'postmodern monoculture' I'm talking about.

Momus (Momus), Tuesday, 22 April 2003 11:34 (twenty-two years ago)

> This is the paradox: in order for a country to be truly 'different' it must fail to tolerate difference.>

I am still unconvinced by this. I’ve asked you upthread to define what would constitute enough ‘difference’ or ‘true diversity.’ I think you’ve done so (something that would be sufficiently discomforting to people not from that society)

First, I’m not sure whether that is necessarily a bad thing, I would be willing to sacrifice some of the unique cultural characteristics to be found here in exchange for an improvement of the lives of people. Most of what would be lost is also stuff I think most would have a hard time defending (FG, abductions/forced marriages, slavery and so forth).

Second, as logajam pointed out, there are many non-western societies which have had histories of coexisting pretty peacefully while having diverse communities comprised of different ethnic groups and religions. The ways they have evolved to accommodate these different groups can serve as models for their change.

In regards to your gloomy predictions of blandness, even in the metropolis where things seem pretty similar, once you delve a little below the surface you will probably find a surprising amount of local difference, which is still a part of people’s lives. Picking and choosing what you will take from your own society and what you will keep is not necessarily bad. I’d argue that the best aspects of a culture would survive in some form or another.

H (Heruy), Tuesday, 22 April 2003 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Thanks, Amarga, but I was more wanting to alert people to the different meaning. This is an issue that Toraneko has addressed before, and I know how liable it is to misunderstanding.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 22 April 2003 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)


Thought I had left IKEA behind when I landed on these shores, but now I see this:

IKEA goes to Japan

I was introduced to the pleasures of shopping at IKEA by a German girlfriend during a brief fling with yuppiedom in late 80's Vancouver. Douglas Coupland's description was "semi-disposable Swedish furniture".

Just like Starbucks. At that time I liked it. Now it's just a bane on the Kyoto townscape.

Maybe you're right about creeping monoculture. Though I'm not sure it's a paradox ... it may be a tautology.

And maybe I'll have to move to Myanmar.

logjaman, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 00:26 (twenty-two years ago)


Just wondering if anyone else on this thread has read anything by Pico Iyer, such as "The Global Soul" or "Falling of the Map". Most of his work deals with the issues we are discussing here. His writing is tentatively optimistic about globalization. Yet he chooses to spend much of his time in suburban Japan.

logjaman, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 00:40 (twenty-two years ago)


Here is a sample of typical Iyer, snatched from a Salon review of his first collection of travel essays "Video Nights in Katmandu":

"As I lay alone in the dark, I began to think about the secrecy of this whole mysterious land, a secrecy so deep that it seemed like sorcery. Indonesia is the fifth largest country in the world, exceeded in population only by the three superpowers and India, home to more people than South Korea, the Philippines, Thailand, Hong Kong and Nepal combined. But how often was it heard from? And what did we know of it? ... Indonesia was far and away the largest Islamic nation in the world, with twice as many Muslims as Iran, Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia combined. Yet even in Muslim Java there seemed to be few mosques, the mythology was Hindu and its most famous monument (Borobudur) was Buddhist."

logjaman, Wednesday, 23 April 2003 00:57 (twenty-two years ago)

nine months pass...
Dear brother Salam-O-Aliekum

It is stated that I am 34 years of age and married man having two little children and I am jobless for last 10 months. my education is B.S.C Iam only supporter of my family and my wife is disabled she lost her right leg from hip joint in her childhood and since then she is using wooden leg. We don’t have any other source of income and currently I am not able to give our children two time meal. I am helpless and facing deep crises. I need job or finanacial support very badly to support my family I pray for you in my prayers five times to my Allah.
shakeel hussain
House No-358 Street No-10.
Gulbahar colony No-2 Near Kids Montessori School.
Peshawar city.Pakistan Phone no.923005905472

shakee; hussain, Wednesday, 4 February 2004 13:50 (twenty-one years ago)

Indeed? I say Momus donates his next PRS cheque.

Enrique (Enrique), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 13:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Weirdest thread revival of the week there.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 4 February 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

four years pass...

lol resist monoculture

for u jho

cozwn, Thursday, 15 January 2009 16:47 (sixteen years ago)


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