Being from London vs. Moving There As an Adult

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I grew up in a north London suburb (Edmonton), yet now I reckon I know more ppl who have moved to London as adults than are actually *from* there, for a variety of reasons (losing touch with ppl from school, having lived in Oxford for nearly ten years, going to London for gigs, FAPs etc).

Which is better, to have grown up in London or to have moved there later?

MarkH (MarkH), Monday, 28 April 2003 08:50 (twenty-two years ago)

I think the best is being from Londin but having been away for a bit. Its interesting Londons one of those places that's very fluid. Even within London most people don't stay where they are from for long.

Ed (dali), Monday, 28 April 2003 08:58 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I have a chum who grew up in Lunding, moved away, has now returned and is as happy as Larry, so perhaps I agree with Ed here (someone call the paparazzi)!

Sarah (starry), Monday, 28 April 2003 09:27 (twenty-two years ago)

As a transplant I find ppl who grew up here are incomprehensible for the most part. They seem so besieged and paranoid, like they've all had a really hard time, they just lash out at everything unless they're comfortably insulated with their extended clans in the safety of their manor. Plus they're the most dishonest ppl I've ever known, entirely given to peasant cunning, gouge everyone outside their little circle for pitifully small stakes and chuckle about it later in their mushmouth patois. This sounds pretty terrible but I imagine it works both ways ie I can't imagine what kind of asshole I must appear to be, just file it as a irreconcialiable communication problem and leave it at that, but I'm curious, is growing up here a horrible ordeal or what? Cuz the extreme touchiness, herd behaviour and obsession with conning ppl seems to slot so neatly into ghetto stereotypes that I'm convinced that everyone here had to fight off rats from the cradle

dave q, Monday, 28 April 2003 10:14 (twenty-two years ago)

I've learned that the native Londoner does not generally know how to give directions to anywhere. That goes TREBLE if they are PRAMFACES.

suzy (suzy), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Why would we need to give directions, we all know where we are going.

Ed (dali), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:20 (twenty-two years ago)

Actually the more I think about it the more I think of London as a collection of siege mentalities, divided only by whether they feel utterly defeated by forces from above or whether they're trying to dig a tunnel out from above but the 'fromabove' itself is always there weighing on ppl and most ppl here seem to respond with either resignation or self-immolation (both of which suggest a culture of incredibly low expectations). Or to exxagerate, what's the essential difference between clubbers/artists struggling to maintain exclusivity by developing new codes all the time to see who's keeping up and the paranoid BNP-voting folk in the East End (of which there are FAR MORE than anybody realises. They will admit to voting that way in an unguarded moment, and they defend it in terms of, you guessed it, being 'besieged'. They are REALLY REALLY fearful people, and in this case I think it's excusable to be more contemptuous than sympathetic to these types, perhaps)

dave q, Monday, 28 April 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't wish to sound like a prude, but I think terms like "pramface" are pretty hateful.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:22 (twenty-two years ago)

We still kicked Derek Beacon out of Poplar.

Ed (dali), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:23 (twenty-two years ago)

(also IME many London natives can't give directions because they actually never leave their own postcode)

dave q, Monday, 28 April 2003 10:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Dave you appear to have picked up a siege mentality all of you own.

Ed (dali), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Jtn = OTM

chris (chris), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:26 (twenty-two years ago)

when in Rome...

dave q, Monday, 28 April 2003 10:27 (twenty-two years ago)

yep, dave q, i think that pretty much sums it up.

i moved here recently, but most of my friends are original londoners. for them, the idea of growing up in the provinces is horrific.

i love living in london, all the more because i am constantly aware of the ways in which is it is different (and better, more fun, etc) to southampton. point is, outsider-looking-in is always a desirable position to be in. my friends have no idea what life outside london is like, and don't even appreciate the ways that living in london is unique, or weird.

so: coming from the provinces/suburbs to london, and appreciating what's good about both, is best. plus you're less miserable and more full of wonder. plus you get to fulfil a classic romantic dick whittington archetype! result.

pete b. (pete b.), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:27 (twenty-two years ago)

ps - Pramface is a revolting Popbitch-ism isn't it? And should therefore never be used by civilised people, eh?

pete b. (pete b.), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

haha!

RJG (RJG), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:30 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm a combination moved there as an adult yet also a suburban Hertfordshire who spent a lot of time here as a child. So it's strange to me the strange differences/similarities between very old childhood memories and things I've noticed as an adult.

kate, Monday, 28 April 2003 10:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I dunno, I just wish everybody didn't have such a short fuse and wasn't so intensely hypersensitive all the time. Maybe I'm like that guy in the 'Onion' who says "why do people get all upset when I call them 'stupid', I'm just stating a fact, they should just chill". Plus the accents sound like (cf Kurt Vonnegut on Midwesterners) "a bandsaw cutting galvanized tin"

dave q, Monday, 28 April 2003 10:32 (twenty-two years ago)

what is a pramface ?

anthony easton (anthony), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

This is a difficult thread to answer, as it's hard for one person to be both.

Dave Q is of course right about paranoid, hard-hearted, cliquey Londoners, but it's a protective mechanism, like all communities have. I know I am both insular and impatient *and* kind and welcoming in reality - but because I'm a Londoner the former is a more public face, and makes outsiders like Dave feel threatened and excluded.

I've never moved anywhere to live intending it to be indefinite or permanent, so I don't really understand the true mentality of those who move somewhere new. But we're all looking after number one in our own/our community's own way.

Mark C (Mark C), Monday, 28 April 2003 10:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Anthony: 'pramface' is an uncharitable way to describe townie women who shriek at their uncontrollable children in shopping arcades ('Oi! Wayne! Put down those biscuits, I already said NAW! Wayne! Stop it or I'll give you something to really cry abaht!") and display other anger management issues in public.

suzy (suzy), Monday, 28 April 2003 11:45 (twenty-two years ago)

otherwise known, ladies and gentlemen, as the working classes. i think they have them outside london as well?

pete b. (pete b.), Monday, 28 April 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, to be working-class it helps to, you know, have gainful semi-skilled or manual employment?

suzy (suzy), Monday, 28 April 2003 11:57 (twenty-two years ago)

obvious flamebait alert - maybe the (non)working classes are the way they are because they've been infantilised through having all the big decisions like 'where they're going to live' etc made for them for the last few decades. alrite that was a pretty shitty thing to say but I've lived in an urban-hell zone forever and I'm sick of their fucking shit

dave q, Monday, 28 April 2003 12:31 (twenty-two years ago)

(also sort of responding to Mark C - I suspect in my case there's a negative feedback thing going on here, when you move around alot like I have other ppl become a bit less substantial {interchangeable even], maybe they pick up that you're not taking them and their situations altogether seriously [well why should you? there's plenty other places, nothin' to see here, etc] so they start getting cagey, which is unpleasant for the transplant who resents that other ppl have anything resembling a 'community' [esp true in my case] so they hold all manifestations of that in utter contempt, so on and so forth. The 'why don't you just leave' bit cuts both ways, for everyone who's ever said that to me I could reply the same whenever they complain about how claustrophobic and suffocating and boring their lives are, 'why don't you just move off the estate where you were born'? [usual answer being the evasive 'why should i have to'])

dave q, Monday, 28 April 2003 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Threads like this make me glad I'm not living in London (though I like visiting). Although it's not so much the people as the high prices.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 28 April 2003 13:31 (twenty-two years ago)

the prices aren't high, we're just ahead of the curve inflation wise.

Ed (dali), Monday, 28 April 2003 13:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't cost much.

Mark C (Mark C), Monday, 28 April 2003 14:03 (twenty-two years ago)

London suxor U R all gay.

Course I am all gay too as I live in Londong-on-Sea. But I love it and loving where I live is more important to me than anything else. I could never love London. I don't know whether people who have moved there in adulthood have a healthier kind of affection for the city than natives or not...

Archel (Archel), Monday, 28 April 2003 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

dave q (and others) paint a horrendous one-sided picture but if thats based on THEIR experiences then so be it. i don't really understand the harsh, negative attitude but then i've grown up pretty much in zone 5 all my life and totally recognise the nature of the London experience as a two-sided coin. my love/hate stems from being just far enough to feel as attached or detached from the metropolis as it suits me...the downside of that IS that forced detachment as i'm never able to get to the clubs or other places i want to be at as often as i'd like. have accumulated friends in various parts of town but do not actually know anyone who lives in zone 1 so maybe thats the difference. living in the centre would probably do my head in after a couple of months, then again i might love it but i'm unlikely to ever do it for financial restrictions alone.

i think MOST transplants do well out of moving to the inner city...i'm just waiting for Gareth's contribution to this thread assuming he's going to make one.

stevem (blueski), Monday, 28 April 2003 15:07 (twenty-two years ago)

i give great directions btw (esp. for someone who can't drive)

stevem (blueski), Monday, 28 April 2003 15:12 (twenty-two years ago)

The thing is, Dave Q isn't all wrong about this - I could name so many people who I went to school with in SE London who never seem to leave the tiny environs they've grown up in as if pretty much indifferent to the big exciting city right on their doorstep (going up to Oxford Street once a month doesn't count).

However, I've always said that I live a small-town life in a big city. I find that I *am* surrounded by a big extended clan, some of whom I go back years and years with, but its kind of like some big amorphous extended group that people drift in and out of at will (not all native Londoners, although a lot of them are). But I reckon it's because of this that I'm glad, unlike other people I know, I haven't had to make that big break with friends and family in order to live and work in London.

Incidentally, out of the thirty-five or so people I work with, only three of us are native Londoners.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Monday, 28 April 2003 15:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Being from London is best! What else am I Supposed to say?

And SteveM is OTM.

I gave lousy directions, once, I swear this is true, football and telly star Ian Wr*ght asked me for directions to Acton Town Hall. I was like it's down there, you gotta turn left here, but I dunno if it's one-way or not, he just looked at me like I was a fool coz of my vagueness and sped off.

However, most of the time I give good directions, but this time I was trying to figure out if it was Wr*ghty or not, plus I'm a Spurs supporter.

jel -- (jel), Monday, 28 April 2003 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

heh, see, its FUN to send people the wrong way - how else are those sick-fuck london bastards gonna get their thrills?

stevem (blueski), Monday, 28 April 2003 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I was born in Bristol and only moved to London four years ago, and I love it and plan never to leave. There are lots of horrible working class people of course, but there are loads of horrible middle- and upper-class people too, and you find all of these everywhere. There seem to me to be a higher proportion, as compared to Bristol and Leicester where I lived before, of clever and interesting and arty and fun people, possibly because they are drawn here by having more arty, etc., things to do and see and all that. Maybe I've just been lucky. No one around here East Ham) has shown much sign of wanting to be my pal, but I haven't sought it anyway.

There are some extraordinary insular people here, but this is true everywhere. Only being interested in London seems more understandable than only being interested in, say, Chippenham.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 28 April 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

the native londoner thing is interesting tho...SO many people you see and meet in London are from elsewhere, walking around town or on the train or bus you hear so many different languages...seriously, who are these people who've lived in Zone 1 all their life? zone 2 even...has anyone actually done that (that isn't super-rich or middle-upper class of whatever)?

stevem (blueski), Monday, 28 April 2003 20:50 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously, who are these people who've lived in Zone 1 all their life? zone 2 even...has anyone actually done that (that isn't super-rich or middle-upper class of whatever)?

There are plenty of council estates/blocks in Z1/2 - presumably families/individuals who were able to get to the head of the local authority waiting list in the 60s/70s have stayed put, perhaps exercising their right to buy in the 80s.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 08:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Each borough has to have local authority housing, even Westminster, Kensington/Chelsea and City of London. Zone 1 housing association building I used to live in is being renovated by the council and all tenants are being rehoused in zone one and two (not me, I was just subletting). Please bear in mind that some of these people have had to live in places with outside toilets for 20 years (it's your own bathroom but on a landing behind its own door as opposed to being part of the flat). Council rent on one pal's new place is £68/week including heat and water.

suzy (suzy), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 09:09 (twenty-two years ago)

'some of these people have had to live in places with outside toilets for 20 years'

what, they were forced at gunpoint? this is what i'm getting at

dave q, Tuesday, 29 April 2003 14:12 (twenty-two years ago)

'some of these people have had to live in places with outside toilets for 20 years'

what, they were forced at gunpoint? this is what i'm getting at

What are the options for a family on low income who have a roof over their heads thanks to [i] the existence of council housing and associated low rent, [ii] their good fortune* in being allocated same at some earlier date?

(* - I don't really mean that, but I'm not sure of the procedure).

I imagine they could move to Sunderland or Stoke or Totnes where even the private flats are cheap, but work far less available. I'm not sure moving to another country is much of an option economically. Live rough, I guess.

Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm sick of having to live with just the one in-house toilet...one upstairs one downstairs is urgent and key

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Bit of a tangent but, why do people on such low incomes insist on *having* families in the first place? Don't most ppl prefer to spend what little money they have on themselves? Ppl mystify me

dave q, Tuesday, 29 April 2003 14:49 (twenty-two years ago)

(that would explain why they're so fiercely protective of their territory tho if they're thinking in terms of decades ahead, holding a place on a 20-yr waiting list would definitely cause those rodent incisors to grow sharp and pointy for baring purposes. maybe it narrows one's idea of 'possibilities in life', planning that far into the future, no wonder they want everything to stay the same and thus for everybody to act the same forever)

dave q, Tuesday, 29 April 2003 14:57 (twenty-two years ago)

hmmmmm, why do low income families have kids...its a familiar stereotype - reasons vary from 'so it gives them greater priorities on the list for handouts' to 'so they can do all the bloody work' to 'cos we're bored and there's fuck all else to do but breed' to 'whoops, oh shit, not again...god i'm thick, oh well...'

excuse the potentially offensive pandering to stereotypes there

stevem (blueski), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)


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