Brutal but Good Films S&D

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All this talk of Battle Royal has brought this on.

I'll proffere up Doberman, a film so brutal, cartoony characters, with beyond cartoony violence. No sympathy figures. The 'hero', the cop, is even more depraved and despicable than the gansters he's chasing. A brilliant folm nothelss which contains one of the most amazingly design nightclubs ever seen on film.

― Ed (dali), Monday, 28 April 2003 18:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Straw Digs
Irreversible (haven't seen it, it's not out in theaters around here)
that Russell Crowe-skinhead flick

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 28 April 2003 18:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Amores Perros is pretty hard to watch if you are a dog lover.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Monday, 28 April 2003 18:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Russell Crowe skinhead flick = Romper Stomper, which is an excellent movie.

― Ally (mlescaut), Monday, 28 April 2003 18:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Man Bites Dog which Criterion just released on DVD.

― Chris Barrus (Chris Barrus), Monday, 28 April 2003 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Takashi Miike owns this thread. Go for Dead or Alive if you liked Dobermann.

But Michael Haneke's Funny Games is the one and only film I could not watch a second time due to its brutality. It's about cartoonish violence inflicted on real people, which is utterly unbearable.

― Frühlingsmute (Wintermute), Monday, 28 April 2003 19:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Just saw "City of God." Very visceral and intense, particulary the bits when violence is inflicted by (and on) kids who appear to be the around 4 or 5 years old.
There was a thread awhile back that referred to reviews which called this a "Brazilian Goodfellas" but it's much better than that. I kind of preferred it to most recent American crime movies I've seen. There was a brutality offset with odd, comic, and very human moments between the characters.
At times I could have done without some of the stylish flourishes. Near-perfect I guess.

― theodore fogelsanger, Monday, 28 April 2003 20:03 (twenty-two years ago)

Audition! A really good film that I found almost unbearable.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 28 April 2003 20:37 (twenty-two years ago)

The Birth of a Nation

― ryan, Monday, 28 April 2003 20:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Audition by Takeshi Miike seconded. I could barely watch the last ten minutes, there's just no way to prepare for something like that... His 'Visitor Q' might even be more extreme, in some ways.

― helpsuit, Monday, 28 April 2003 20:39 (twenty-two years ago)

second for Romper Stomper. For some reason, before I went to go see it, I thought it'd be funny. It sure wasn't.

Does Salo count? I need to see that.

― hstencil, Monday, 28 April 2003 20:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I found Lilja 4-Ever emotionally devastating. compared to it Audition is for pantywaists.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 28 April 2003 21:33 (twenty-two years ago)

birth of a nation

anyone seen this? is this just a guy trolling by naming the ku klux klans favourite movie? or is it genuinely interesting?

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 28 April 2003 21:35 (twenty-two years ago)

But Michael Haneke's Funny Games is the one and only film I could not watch a second time due to its brutality. It's about cartoonish violence inflicted on real people, which is utterly unbearable.

I was gonna mention this! I love home invasion movies.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 28 April 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I had to watch part of it for an art history course. Um, not terribly interesting - the toning was cheesy (scenes were toned green and red depending on the 'mood'), and the whole "praise the KKK" angle was depressing.

Maybe if I'd seen the entire thing (four hours?), it would have had some impact. As it is, I don't get the big deal (other than being somewhat pioneering).

― miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Monday, 28 April 2003 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

Chat!

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Monday, 28 April 2003 21:43 (twenty-two years ago)

I liked Audition - but considering the heavily maligned misogyny in Takeshi Mike's followup (Ichi the Killer) I'm surprised Martin S is willing to sit in this director's company for 90 minutes (I'm deadly serious as well - or is Marty not aware of Ichi and it's lengthy sequences of sexual abuse?).

I've seen Birth of a Nation - a technically amazing film which changed cinema and MUST be seen because of its importance in this field. Very well directed and well told but horribly (and I mean HORRIBLY) racist. So offensive you'll want to thump a hole in the wall.

10 Classic Brutal but good (nay, great) films:

Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer
Last House on the Left
The Texas Chain Saw Massacre
A Bullet in the Head
Suspiria
Opera
Tenebrae
Cape Fear (Scorsese)
Funny Games
The Killing Fields

10 crap but brutal films which have something resembling a cult reputation but which are just shit in every way really...

Cannibal Holocaust
Cannibal Ferox
Ilsa She Wolf of the SS
Salo: 120 Days of Sodom (well made but just kinda... horrid and dull)
House by the Edge of the Park
Bloodsucking Freaks
Nekromantik
Nekromanitk 2: Return of the Loving Dead
Faces of Death
The New York Ripper

― Calum, Monday, 28 April 2003 21:46 (twenty-two years ago)

wait ronan you've never seen BOAN?

Roger Ebert's recent essays on the subject prob. suffice as an introduction, but strike the part of Griffith being the "founder of film style" or whatever.

http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/birthofanation.html
http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/greatmovies/birthofanation_ii.html

― amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 28 April 2003 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Triumph Of The Will is beautiful in a horrible, horrible way.

Also Sorrow And The Pity, which is obnoxious to watch (visually) and horrible.

― jm (jtm), Monday, 28 April 2003 21:50 (twenty-two years ago)

anyone seen this? is this just a guy trolling by naming the ku klux klans favourite movie? or is it genuinely interesting?

yeah I wasn't meaning to troll, it's just a great movie that is really hard to watch. you want to flinch at the ideas, and thats pretty brutal.

― ryan, Monday, 28 April 2003 22:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I found Lilja 4-Ever emotionally devastating. compared to it Audition is for pantywaists.

Seconded. Mike Leigh's Naked shouldn't go unmentioned either.

― Frühlingsmute (Wintermute), Monday, 28 April 2003 22:35 (twenty-two years ago)

o naked yes. just what i was thinking.

― gaz (gaz), Monday, 28 April 2003 22:43 (twenty-two years ago)

You may scoff at my bad taste but I REALLY LOVE the film I.D.

I saw Baise-Moi the other day. That was something else!

― dog latin (dog latin), Monday, 28 April 2003 23:03 (twenty-two years ago)

from what I remember of it I'd put "once were warriors" in this category.

― H (Heruy), Monday, 28 April 2003 23:06 (twenty-two years ago)

true story: my grandma and D.W. Griffith used to enjoy mint juleps ca. 1920 on her front porch in the small town near L.A. where I grew up. She gave me the super-cool art deco cigarette case he'd once given her as a present. Birth of a Nation: what everybody else said: it basically INVENTS CINEMA and so should be seen with somebody to explain what's important, but yeah, philosophically quite ick.

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Monday, 28 April 2003 23:18 (twenty-two years ago)

that whole "invents cinema" line is sort of antiquated. the last few decades of research in this area has shown that griffith was a contributor but hardly an "inventor." griffith was his own best publicist and popularized a lot of half-truths about his role in early American cinema. namely that he invented the close-up, cross-cutting, etc. he may have contributed as much or more than any other American figure to the medium in that era, but he by no means "invented" cinema. there were great films, features even, being made several years before birth of a nation. i would recommend a few if they were easy to see, but my favorites are sjöström's ingeborg holm and a german film titled die landstrasse. there are also the serials of louis feuillade (fantômas, les vampires, etc.) and so on and so on...

a lot of griffith "apologists" have asserted that he wasn't much of a racist himself and that he was "just" adapting a popular series of novels and plays for the screen as was then (and now) common practice. they go on to allege that his next film, intolerance (which had even more impact on the European cinema than Birth) was a kind of apologia for the racism in his previous film. i've never bought that simple line; griffith was a pretty confused guy politically, not very sophisticated. like many bigots he "hated war" -- made several nominally "anti-war" films and also one vociferously anti-German film, and indeed Birth is, as well as a kind of paean to race war, an anti-war film of sorts. whatever.

john, you should come on over to I Love Film where the weather's nice and we always share our cigarette cases.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 00:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Griffith was a complicated fellow -- despite himself you might say. even more enlightened figures like Lillian Gish (a lifetime liberal) were loyal to his memory to the last. he wasn't able to keep up with changes in film style, and was pretty much persona non grata in hollywood by the mid-1920s. it's hard to say whether this was because of his alcoholism or his alcoholism was due to his inability to regain the prestige and power he had once (briefly) enjoyed. his last two (sound) films, abraham lincoln and the struggle are notably archaic (the latter looks like a 1910s Biograph picture in some respects) but still pretty good. you can see quite clearly in the former where john ford got a lot of inspiration from.

I could go on for days about him. sorry to hijack the thread but i was bored.

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 00:17 (twenty-two years ago)

I can't figure out how my grandmother, may she rest in peace, wasn't a roaring drunk: her two best Hollywood friends, Griffith and W.C. Fields, were practically walking billboards for rye whiskey

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 00:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Henry really is an amazing movie.

― Colin Meeder (Mert), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 09:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Triumph Of The Will is beautiful in a horrible, horrible way.

it's a very boring film.

the best bits are the speeches by the Nazis. It makes you think that the Germans must have been really stupid to vote for this bunch of clowns.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 09:34 (twenty-two years ago)

I tend not to think of Naked as a brutal film... somehow I always forget the unpleasant scenes of sexual violence and just remember all the dialogue.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 09:38 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry Ryan, I was just making sure, I haven't seen it myself and I don't watch alot of films, but it was in a book I read which had a chapter about the Klan, and seemed quite an oddity.

― Ronan (Ronan), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 09:41 (twenty-two years ago)

"one false move" is pretty brutal.. particularly the beginning... but it is a GREAT film.

incidentally, "brutal" is Dublin slang for "rub", so if this was "I Bleedin Love Fuckin Everythin" this thread's title would be rather paradoxical.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 10:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Audition! A really good film that I found almost unbearable.

ZOINKS! That was the most horrific [yet entertaining] film I've ever seen. I damn near fainted by the end. I have a fear of things touching my neck, so that piano-wire-decapitation scene nearly did me in.

― phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 10:53 (twenty-two years ago)

Straw Digs

Straw Digs - a brutal film about an unfortunate mathematician who moves into a house entirely made of straw, with disastrous consequences.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 10:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Scanners. Never managed to finish Battle Royal even though I loved the first half.

― nathalie (nathalie), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 11:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Serious films that are brutal but good (=non-exploitative):

The Powder Keg
Dark Days
The Celebration
The Grande Bouffe
Hate
In the Company of Men
The King of Comedy
Natural Born Killers
Audition
The Piano Teacher
Songs from the Second Floor
The Isle
Killer
The War Zone
Funny Games
I Stand Alone
Tokyo Fist
Cutting Moments
Garage Olimpo
Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer
The Birdcage Inn
Surrender Dorothy

Brutal but fun films:

Happiness
Meet the Feebles
Dobermann
Visitor Q
Monday
Moonlight Whispers
Attack the Gas Station
Bad Boy Bubby

Overrated brutal films (exploitative or otherwise bad):

Xiu Xiu
Salo
Mother's Day
The Texas Chainsaw Massacre
The Hills Have Eyes
S.
Ichi the Killer
Dancer in the Dark
The Idiots
Irreversible

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 11:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Contemporary Japanese and South Korean films rule this thread.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 11:15 (twenty-two years ago)

The Hills Have Eyes

Wait... I LOVE that movie!

― phil-two (phil-two), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 11:16 (twenty-two years ago)

How come?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 11:18 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow, wow, wow... no hold up there - 'In the Company of Men', 'Natural Born Killers', 'Audition', 'Funny Games', 'The Killer' and 'Tokyo Fist' are NOT exploitation, 'Happiness', 'Meet the Feebles' and 'Bad Boy Bubby' are simply FUN but you're telling me 'The Texas Chain Saw Massacre' (a landmark in cinema) IS exploitation??? Man, this is just not right.

In any discussion of this genre, you'll see that Texas Chain Saw is held up as being about as pure and unrelenting as horror can get but NOT exploitation. And it's not as brutal as many of the films you've come down in favour of!

And as much as I hate 'Salo' it is NOT AN EXPLOITATION MOVIE!!! It's a sick piece of crap, yes, but it's not designed to sell itself on the illure of seeing tits and ass and gore! It's an art movie, and filmed and directed as such, albeit with far too much unpleasantness to bare. 'Audition', for one, is umpteen times more of an exploitation film than either of these (not to mention 'The Idiots' or 'Dancer in the Dark' - which are only 'bad' if you're using a Westernised, linear form of filmmaking as a means to critique them).

'The Hills Have Eyes' is alright, it's just not as good as 'Last House on the Left' or 'Nightmare on Elm Street'. 'Mother's Day' is pretty poor, although there's been some interesting defence written on it and the film's director argues for it to be considered a feminist movie (erm...).

― Calum, Tuesday, 29 April 2003 12:13 (twenty-two years ago)

If you look at my post, it says "exploitative or otherwise bad". I don't think Texas Chainsaw Massacre is exploitative, it's merely boring. For example, take the scene where the grandpa tries to hit the girl with the hammer but misses him again and again. No way would I call this "pure horror". The same goes for The Hills Have Eyes. I'm not scared of any silly-looking cavemen.

I think Salo could be considered an exploitation film for those art film buffs who usually reject sex and gore. The subject material has an "exploitation" tag on it, but because Salo is a (seemingly) serious film made by an respected director, the high culture crowd can go and see it without feeling guilty, expecting to see something "deep" and "meaningful". Which, of course, is nothing what Salo has to offer.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 12:45 (twenty-two years ago)

What is the defense for "Natural Born Killers"? I think it is just about the worst thing I've ever seen - so insulting to the intelligence of the audience.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 12:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't have the time right now to delve into this, but I'll say this: you shouldn't judge Natural Born Killers by it's plot, it supposed to be a sort of a cinematic collage, a satirical visual representation of American media in general, and of crime stories in particular. Whether it works for you or not is a different question. For me it did.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 13:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Tuomas, horror doesn't mean shock/the "flinch" effect that so many horror movies have come to chamption. The Texas Chainsaw Massacre is a lasting horror: incredibly believable, gorgeously sequenced, relentless. It doesn't make you jump out of your seat, but, if dwelled on a little, places images to rest in your mind that never, ever leave.

(NB we are talking about my favorite American film EVAH here so I tend to get carried away)

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 13:11 (twenty-two years ago)

the Texas Chain Saw Massacare does have long sequences that are straight out of Benny Hill, though. It does have its scary moments, and it is a good film, but a lot of it is rather chucklesome.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 13:18 (twenty-two years ago)

No love for Fight Club? Or was it not brutal enough?

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 14:27 (twenty-two years ago)

The Texas Chain Saw Massacre is one of the finest pieces of cinema ever made. I feel pretty sorry for Tobe after this - he had his work fucked with by all and sundry from what I've read and heard. The words 'chucklesome' and 'boring' simply do not belong in the same sentence as Tobe's masterpiece (arguably the best horror movie ever made, rivalled only by Argento's Suspiria).

I'm not saying an art film cannot be exploitative (Caligula or Salon Kitty anyone) but Salo isn't. It appeals to a lot of the exploitation film crowd but that includes a lot of anoraks who are just attracted to anything that was/ is banned like a fly to shit. Personally, I found the movie to be reprehensible.

'Natural Born Killers' is an interesting experiment. It's pretty powerful but it eventually becomes a great big mess, albeit one that's very intoxicating to view. It is not however on a par with The Texas Chain Saw Massacre.

― Calum, Tuesday, 29 April 2003 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Come And See. Both brutal AND magical

― Nathan W (Nathan Webb), Tuesday, 29 April 2003 15:41 (twenty-two years ago)

one year passes...

REVIVE!

― Revivalist (Revivalist), Monday, 19 July 2004 11:09 (twenty-one years ago)

The Butterfly EffeXor.

― Pete (Pete), Monday, 19 July 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

still haven't seen Salo.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 19 July 2004 15:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Has anyone yet mentioned the excellent German film Stalingrad, which has a lower survival rate for the main cast than The Wild Bunch?

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 19 July 2004 15:48 (twenty-one years ago)

a German film about Stalingrad - that almost seems like a punchline to a bad joke.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 19 July 2004 15:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I recently saw (and interviewed Cary Elwes and the writer/co-star and director of) a film called SAW. It comes out in Sept. It is brutal. It is nasty. It is really edge of your seat suspenseful.

Best of all though - it's the greatest horror movie of the year. You want brutal but brilliant? Check it out!

― C-Man (C-Man), Monday, 19 July 2004 16:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Almost without exception I can live without war films that all but say "we lost some fine men but dammit, it was worth it!" (notable exceptions: Band of Brothers and The Longest Day, the latter mostly for cheesy Hollywood star power).

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 19 July 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

In My Skin (Dans ma peau). It's nasty. I had to leave the theater. Oh, and Trouble Every Day. Perhaps Bruno Dumont's Twentynine Palms, I haven't seen it yet though.

Oh, I know... Rosetta and The Son, I quite like the Dardenne brothers.

― daria g (daria g), Monday, 19 July 2004 16:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Cold Mountain was a far better film than I expected. I will never ever watch it again.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Monday, 19 July 2004 16:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Passion of the Christ.....just kidding!

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 19 July 2004 17:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Trouble Every Day was boring. Who wants to see a slow French art flick about vampires? Mind you, I do love slow French art flicks when they're good, but that one wasn't.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Monday, 19 July 2004 17:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I think Catherine Breillat's "Fat Girl" is easily her best movie, and is really totally fascinating -- but it is absolutely devastating.

― Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Monday, 19 July 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, yeah -- has anyone here seen "The Brown Bunny" yet? I know it has had European runs in France and Spain...

― Neb Reyob (Ben Boyer), Monday, 19 July 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

The Brown Bunny is going to be playing in L.A. in several months.

― Gear! (Gear!), Monday, 19 July 2004 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

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