Does anyone have any first-hand experience of Steiner (Waldorf) schools?

http://www.steinercollege.org/rs.html , what, this Rudolf Steiner?. Umm. Oh no. OH NO.

(Sorry, I have no knowledge of this particular educational stab but g/f is very well informed in these matters and she says it's simply wrong, and she's generally right, I have discovered)

I think my Dad went to one for at least a year

My cousin's children go to a Steiner stream within a state primary school. C J, I think you should ask your questions and see what happens.

My high school used to play basketball against a Waldorf school. They SUCKED.

I, myself have never been to one. People who come out of them are freaky in a self assured culty kind of way, they only want to associate with the people that went to their school and shared the same experiences man and had the same teacher for 12 god damned years.

I wish I went

Okay - with his permission, I'm copying my friend's original post to open it up for discussion (he really would like constructive comments and opinions as he is desperate to help out in this situation).

It is rather lengthy, but hopefully quite self-explanatory. I understand that this might be a sensitive subject, so if anyone wishes to make any comments anonymously, then do please email me.

Here's what he said originally :

Steiner (Waldorf) Schooling-Very Worried Friend Needs Advice.....

....... and I'm not sure what to tell him since he's about to make a very important decision on the future education of his 10 year old son. I'm not sure I want to play any part in such decision-making by giving advice. This doesn't sound like me being a good friend but, given the circumstances, I have reason. Some background - a little long so apologies, but I hope it has relevance:

His son attends a Rudolf Steiner school, and has done so for the last 5 years. I know the school in question well since it's about a 10 minute walk from where I grew up from about 14 onwards. When I was home for the occasional weekend and holidays from my old school I used to enjoy mixing with the guys and girls from the school since mine was much more Spartan and regimented in comparison. I admired the fact that they seemed possessed of an inner grace and spirituality that belied their years. So much so, I asked my own parents why I couldn't go there.

My mother said she'd seriously considered it (she's a nutritionist and very alternative of mind - she wanted to build a second home at one stage based on Eurythmy, another belief the centre of which lies in my home town along with the European Scientology HQ down the road which is down the road from the UK National Mormon Temple - it's that kind of place.)

Her father--my grandfather funny enough--was a long-standing military man, and he said that if I were sent there he would disown my mother since it was nothing more than a racist, Aryan-driven sh*thole which has boys knitting crochet patterns and leaving as wimps, not fit for the Real World. He used the word "Nazi" a lot, which may be understandable since he spent some of WWII fighting them. I was shocked at this reaction since he was normally a very enlightened man, who I had immense respect for. I couldn't understand it. Some of the kids were children of 60s rock stars who, in keeping with their parents' drug-induced Woodstock/Altamont karma, sent their chidren there to tune in, be in touch with their inner self, *feel* the colours (primary only for the younger ones) and a whole lot more, preferably without the drugs bit.

I didn't see them goose-stepping around my village shouting: Sieg Heil!! in the local pub or quoting Steiner chapter and verse in an anti-Semitic or racist way. I stayed good friends with a couple and they were very helpful as far as contacts went (ie their parents) when I wanted to earn some money as a session singer while a student. I saw basically nothing inherently WRONG with their pursuit of Steiner's ideals - this Anthroposophy which, as far as I was concerned turned them into pretty well-adjusted teenagers as opposed to the winner-takes-all mentality of my own schooling.

Why am I writing all this? Because my good friend has a son who, he says, has been home during the Easter break from the school in question, making what he considers to be racist remarks about black people, Jewish people and informing his father that there is far too much wrong with the world today and being at home only fuels that belief. All this from a 10 year old.

Needless to say, my friend is devastated. He's the original "Peace and Love" hippy (he's early 50s) and all he wants is his child to be at peace with the world and make a positive contribution through treating his fellow-man with respect and courtesy. He thought this type of school and education would cement this desire.

He's not a confrontational person by nature. Nor is he a great decision-maker. especially when it comes to difficult ones. Perhaps he wants me to pick up the cudgel on his behalf ( which I've told him I won't do) but he really doesn't know what to do. Some options:

1. Leave his child there since the good behind Anthroposophy far outweighs the bad (allegedly).

2. Take his child out and send him immediately somewhere more mainstream.

3. Cause a major stink and confront the teaching staff (History especially) and get some answers before he does anything.

I understand Waldorf schools have come in for criticism in recent years - indeed it seems to be the vogue to have a bash at Steiner and his ideals, but all I want to is provide advice to a good friend that will HELP but not necessarily make his mind up for him completely. It's HIS child here, not mine. I haven't mentioned a mother since she lives abroad and has no interest in her son's upbringing.

1. Has anyone here ben educated at a Steiner school? If so, any thoughts on what I've written?

2. Any advice or comment would be much appreciated as I have a friend who has one child - a son that means the world to him and who really would like to know what to do next.

Comments? Experiences? Advice? Frank but non-flaming discussion?

Thanks, everyone.

Why assume that the problem is the school?

I dated a woman whose father's side were all Anthroposophists. She's nuts.

My initial reaction was similar to yours, Colin - that he was a typical 10 year old, chancing his arm with his Dad by coming out with some dodgy racist repertoire for shock value which had nothing to do with the school dogma. Apparently he's a lively, cheeky kid so it wouldn't surprise me.

That said, it transpires that there are other parents of children at the school who've expressed concern at what is being taught or more to the point what they see as a revisionist slant which they feel simply doesn't smell right. This isn't necessarily paranoia since I'm aware that the German government has been looking more closely at the Steiner method in recent years in light of complaints from parents there.

While there is an awful lot that seems to be good about the teaching methods, there appears to be a subtle but definite trend when it comes to certain things being taught and whilst nobody is terming it an Aryan Überalles culture it is, apparently, raising eyebrows.

The government hasn't really investigated much -- there was a minor scandal about two or three years ago after a television program that rasied a few questions, although it wasn't the most impressive investigative journalism ever -- more disturbing was the reaction of the schools, which was to sue everybody and put up the Cone of Silence, Scientology style.

That said, I suspect that there are Waldorf schools and there are Waldorf schools. Maybe this kid is getting it from a teacher, maybe he's getting it from a fellow student who's parents are sending him to the school because of its Judenfreie reputation, whether it's deserved or not. So my suggestion is 4. cause a minor stink -- ask questions in a non-confrontational way first, and start the questioning with the kid.

Thank you, Colin.

OK, I went to a (British) Steiner school for four years and I can only comment on my particular experience, as there is a lot of variation even within this country - that's independent schools for you. BUT a striking thing about Steiner education, which often isn't realised, is that there is NO overt teaching of Anthroposophy or spiritual science or Steiner's theory at all within the school (or certainly wasn't in mine). It is entirely a practical application of Steiner's ideas about education (centred on a holistic approach to the development of the individual), not any kind of cult or dogmatic initiation to his philosophy.

So I would find it pretty surprising if racist ideas were transmitted through the teaching. I didn't know anything about Anthroposophy as a theory until much later, and even then I can't say I came across any Aryan supremacy stuff - though he wrote an awful lot and I only read a smattering.

Like anything, Steiner's ideas can be interpreted by nutters. And many Anthroposophists are probably nutters. My Steiner school was an especially hippy one, because that was how Brighton was at the time. I don't know whether others have their own agendas. One thing I do know is that there is a lot of misuderstanding about what Steiner schools are, and I was constantly subject to outrageously ignorant comments from other local schoolkids.

Kids are exposed to all kinds of influences and I do think it would be a shame to presume its the fault of the school. Just an informal chat with the teachers (and Steiner schools generally emphasise lots of parent involvement) should be enough to work out if there's some pernicious top-down influence, no?

Personally I LOVED my school and think that the Steiner method has a lot to teach mainstream education, though it has its flaws too. But Steiner was so keen on encouraging independent thought that if any school is promoting dodgy doctrines it's the individual school, not Steiner, to blame. For the record, everyone I went to school with is well-adjusted, academically able and open-minded... though that could be coincidence of course :)

When I was a student at Aberdeen University I used to go out to the Steiner community in the forest at Newton Dee and do readings and workshops, which was a great experience. They had a beautiful village there, a well-equipped theatre, and they baked their own bread.People seemed happy.

I find Steiner interesting for his emphasis on creativity and spirituality. I like his architectural ideas -- no corners in the windows, for instance! -- and I respect people who provide alternatives to the battery farming style of eduction we have now.

A lot of my favourite artists have some Steiner education or influence: Fassbinder, Saul Bellow, Josef Beuys. If rumours of 'Aryan' elements in Steiner circulate, it's because we tend to process 'otherness' in our culture as inherently suspicious. We tend to think that anyone who doesn't seem to adhere to our particular formula of representation / repression of the 'other' (political correctness, repressive tolerance, guilt) must be suspect and illiberal.

Also, if Steiner had anything remotely anti-Semitic in his ideas, I don't think Saul Bellow, the greatest living Jewish novelist, would have written an introduction to one of his books and said "If I had a child of school age, I would send him to one of the Waldorf Schools."

My understanding is that Steiner himself was resolutely opposed to the Nazis. I went to a talk once where it was asserted that Steiner's psychic efforts were as important in defeating the Nazis as the actions of the Allied militaries.

I've just registered that Steiner died in 1925, well before the rise of the Nazis.

Maybe he made his psychic efforts through a psychic!

I wouldn't put it past him.

Cocky Austrian bastard.

momus?

What is the Waldorf philosophy on how old you should be when you learn to read?

My sister-in-law wants to send her kid to a Waldorf school but hasn't been able to afford it. Instead, she has just kept her home from school and sort of half-assedly taught some of the "Waldorf" beliefs (the child knows how to knit). My niece is now 8 and can't yet read.

Can a Waldorf proponent set my mind at ease about kids learning to read late?

My ex-girlfriend, who is Jewish, attended a Waldorf school when she was in elementary school and she thinks very highly of their approach. She wants to send her own kids there someday. So I don't buy that "Aryan" stuff. (Relevant to nothing: one of her classmates in that school was Jennifer Aniston.)

There was recently an interesting article at Salon.com (which of course you have to go through the watch-an-ad song'n'dance for):
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2004/05/26/waldorf/index_np.html

Very informative site here:
http://www.openwaldorf.com/

Personally, I'm no authority whatever, having no children and having gone to Florida public schools, than which nearly anything would have been better. However, the no-reading-til-7 and the Ahriman stuff gives me pause.