This is the thread for people living in areas unfriendly to the carless who are, in fact, carless

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The car that I drive is going in to the shop today and I'm biking 15 miles back with a hangover :(

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 11:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Mentalist. Get a TAXI.

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 11:48 (twenty-two years ago)

Been there, done that. Summer of 1998, my mum went to South Africa and left me her house and her car, so I abandonned my apartment in NYC and moved upstate. It was fine while I had a car. Then my mum came back, demanded her car back, and pissed off to Yale, leaving me stranded in Upstate NY with no transport and the nearest shop being at least 2 miles away. I went quite mad. It was entertaining in a certain way, but I don't know if I would do it again.

― kate, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 11:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I tried to ride a bicycle, but erm... for a start, there was a MASSIVE FUCKOFF HILL between me and the nearest village which I just couldn't get up. And the bicycle didn't really work. So I just hiked everywhere.

― kate, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 11:50 (twenty-two years ago)

haha - trife to thread!

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 11:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Sod that - get a LIMO.

― Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 11:52 (twenty-two years ago)

Taxis in the United States are pretty expensive outside of metro areas.

PS - I'M REALLY HUNGOVER. I joined a beer club last night.

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 11:54 (twenty-two years ago)

My area isn't unfriendly to the carless per se -- at least not until 10 pm or so.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 12:21 (twenty-two years ago)

if you happen to be living in such a situation, and you try to walk down the street, esp. if the street was sadistically designed w/o sidewalks, you're made to feel like a criminal. i hate that shit; why is one punished when one is not polluting or contributing to all of the other nasty results of automobile culture? in america, with the exception of a handful of cities, being carless is hardly even an option... reason #563 why america is so f*cked.

― Dallas Yertle (Dallas Yertle), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 12:38 (twenty-two years ago)

First two years at Bard were carless, in upstate NY. One time, me and this guy Russ (who dropped out later that year) walked about two miles to the Mobil by the Kingston-Rhinecliff Bridge to buy smokes and beer. Actually, it was kind of fun.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 12:39 (twenty-two years ago)

I come from a tiny village = I spent 19 years not going out except to stare at the river/ smoke in the graveyard/ taunt cattle. If I did go anywhere I had to come home really early, or get a taxi home, which cost more than a weeks paper round money. It's formative, innit? Still, now I live in London and get pissed off when I have to wait more than 4 minutes for the tube, or if I am more than 10 minutes away from a 24 hour shop. Ingrate.

― alix (alix), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 12:41 (twenty-two years ago)

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO THREAD.

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 12:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I lived carless in Nebraska, home of pick-up trucks, where people drive five blocks to the supermarket, for five years. It wasn't a problem, though, because Lincoln is seven miles across and bike friendly. The suburbs, however, are extremely bike unfriendly, so I've had to resort to sharing a car with my family until I can get one of my own. It's not the mobility that bothers me - it's extremely bad for fitness.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 12:58 (twenty-two years ago)

"UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO THREAD."

you know it'll never show up; it's much too busy causing/looking for trouble while simultaneously proclaiming its superiority in all spheres. it also has a piss-poor history of accountability.

― Dallas Yertle (Dallas Yertle), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 13:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I live out in the country, and there is a man that walks up and down our sidewalkless street smoking cigarettes. Well, the cops pulled him over in front of our house yesterday. Someone called him on "suspicious behavior". Shit. He wasn't doing anything wrong, just walking.
I talked to him, and he used to walk out in the country on the southside of town, and the smae thing happened there. It is like Ray Bradbury's story "The Pedestrian"!

― Fivvy (Fivvy), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 13:09 (twenty-two years ago)

There's a homeless guy here in the sticks that is always getting busted for the cops for stuff. We clal him walking man.

That was the coldest bike ride of my life. icy mist :(

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 13:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Does anybody else live in that weird hinterland (country/notcountry) that actually makes up most of SE England? I'm 7 miles from nearest big town (2 from seaside hole they forgot to close down, not an option) and cycle it most of the time. 50/50 pleasant and lethal: I'm about to get on my bike and cycle mostly through woods on this beautiful day (I'll do it mid-Jan too tho'), then out onto main roads, there to dice with death for the last 3 miles or so. Thanks VERY much to the total MANIAC bus passenger who shouted "get off the fucking road!" at me just as said bus was edging me into a ditch the other day. It's ok: I'm half freelance so don't have to go anywhere much of the time and can choose bike/bus/cab as it suits. BUT: my girlfriend drives and is threatening driving lessons for my birthday. Thing is: I'll actually happily risk life and limb cycling back from the pub at night, but don't know how sustainable this position is in the long run. There's a lot of guilt involved (shopping, etc.)...

― Brian Dillon (Brian Dillon), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 13:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The key to this is having parents or friends who will give you rides, and money to pay them for gas.

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 13:55 (twenty-two years ago)

yo.
Regina el suckos el biggo uno on this count.

― Horace Mann (Horace Mann), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 13:58 (twenty-two years ago)

be careful about cycling back from the pub. a friend broke his collarbone cycling home from a new years' party that i helped host. there was much guilt for having let him leave. though we were thankful that he drunkenly hit a curb and not a car.

― JuliaA (j_bdules), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

i keep seeing this title as 'areas unfriendly to the careless'

'you have been charged and found guilty of living without due care and attention - i sentence you to 18 months of hoovering'

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I know it happens, but the concept of a "sidewalkless street" just makes me gape with wonder and disgust.

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah i remember having to walk to/from work at some huge glass & metal chickenshed on a new-town industrial estate - miles of pavementless dual carriageways cut into gulleys - so the sides actually sloped in order to force you in front of the bastard cars

this was what passed for joined-up thinking in local/national govt planning/employment/transport policy

― Snowy Mann (rdmanston), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

My friend died biking home drunk, also on a sidewalkless street. He skidded off the curb (cement curb about 3" wide) that most bikers are forced to ride on by the traffic/angry lawnowners. He broke his skull and died.
I was hit by a car, walking on the crosswalk while the light said WALK, everything indicating I had the right of way 100%. And a car turned the corner and drove right into me. This was right by the high school, so it's the most pedestrian-populated part of town.
I don't really remember what happened, but I felt depressed for weeks after. The doctor said that is often a symptom of getting hit by a car.
Anyway, now I am convinced I live in the least pedestrian-friendly town of all.

― Fivvy (Fivvy), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

"I know it happens, but the concept of a "sidewalkless street" just makes me gape with wonder and disgust."

outside of large cities, in the u.s. sidewalks are very much an endangered species. whenever new housing developments spring up, they almost never include sidewalks...it's assumed everyone drives & that walking is limited to the insane or terribly impoverished.

― Dallas Yertle (Dallas Yertle), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 15:46 (twenty-two years ago)

A lot of cities downtown renovations really fail to put enough sidewalks and crosswalks in... so you have to take all these crazy routes.

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 15:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I should probably point out that my devil-may-care apres-pub cycling boast was a little overstated: I've done it a few times (and after about two drinks). In truth, not to be recommended, as Julia A and Fivvy remind us.

― Brian Dillon (Brian Dillon), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 15:55 (twenty-two years ago)

I would walk/bike more, but some crossing some intersections around me is near-suicidal. And walking is so boring and depressing - when you walk you see just how ugly most of the american landscape really is.

― fletrejet, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 16:01 (twenty-two years ago)

I know it happens, but the concept of a "sidewalkless street" just makes me gape with wonder and disgust.

Does that include little country lanes and villages?

― caitlin (caitlin), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

No, it doesn't. I'm talking specifically about America, as it was something I noticed when I was there, complained about, and was told it was completely normal and becoming more so.

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 16:35 (twenty-two years ago)

I recommend Larry McMurtry's second sequel to 'The Last Picture Show'. In 'Duane's Depressed', the character played by Jeff Bridges in the two movies gives up his pickup truck, and decides to walk places instead. Everyone thinks he has gone mad.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 18:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Fivvy, I was hit by a car in a similar manner (walk sign, my right of way, etc.) while rollerblading once. The driver showed no concern that he'd just hit someone and drove away. Bastard.

― JuliaA (j_bdules), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 18:51 (twenty-two years ago)

whenever new housing developments spring up, they almost never include sidewalks...it's assumed everyone drives & that walking is limited to the insane or terribly impoverished.

For the non-U.S. residents: most new housing developments in the U.S. are either 1) gated communities that by definition are hostile to the idea of neighboring outsiders being able to stroll about the grounds, or 2) townhouses that have been specifically designed to cram the maximum possible number of structures onto the piece of property being developed.

In the case of 2), allowing space for sidewalks would eat into the number of units, and most developers know that they will not alienate significant numbers of buyers by not providing sidewalks.

― j.lu (j.lu), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

be careful about cycling back from the pub.

Biking while intoxicated is a crime in the US! Not sure if it's the same as DUI but we used to see cops pulling sloshed bikers over all the time just off campus when in college.

― chester (synkro), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 19:03 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm perfectly happy without a car, except when I have to go to Hyde Park (that's Hyde Park Chicago folks).

― amateurist (amateurist), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

It seems like here in the US the roads where a sidewalk would be most helpful there's none, ie busy roads w/a lot of traffic. But on side streets in subdivisions there's almost always sidewalks, as there should be since there's a lot of kids walking to school and what not. If you try walking down a busy, main road it's like your in a no-man's land and everybody stares at you wondering 'what's his deal?'.
For anybody interested in how fucked up American urban and esp suburban planning is and how it pays no attention to human scale, check out the book 'Geography of Nowhere'.

― buttch (Oops), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 19:08 (twenty-two years ago)

In new developments there usually isn't that much traffic anyway, can't you just ride on the side of the road?

― Maria (Maria), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 19:11 (twenty-two years ago)

WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?

― buttch (Oops), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 19:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Suburbs are where you least need sidewalks. Suburb roads are usually far wider than needed, the speed limits are retarded-slow (30-35 mph), they are now putting in lots of speed bumps/humps to force people to slow down.

Collector/Arterial roads need sidewalks, but they will always be very, very hostile to pedestrians, sidewalks or not.

― fletrejet, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

No, no, fletrejet. Suburbs should be vibrant, active places where people walk all the time. The fact that this isn't relevant to you just proves how far up the shitter things have gone in the states.

― Mark C (Mark C), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 20:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Rhode Island at least has bike carriers on the statewide bus system. SWEEEEEET!

― Jon Williams (ex machina), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 20:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Marc C, where would you like the suburbanites to walk to on these golden sidewalks? There's not much to do besides take the baby for a stroll in its carriage around the block.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 20:48 (twenty-two years ago)

he would like them to walk to the shitter

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

he's a very big fan

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 20:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I think what Mark C. is saying is that the fact that there is not much to do is part of the problem. I do agree with him - the culture is dictated by the design.

― Kerry (dymaxia), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 20:53 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think the suburbs were ever intended to be the land of opportunity that Marc C. invokes. They are safe homogonous places where people can raise their kids away from the maddening crowds. The problem = the suburbs themselves, not the alleged lack of sidewalks therein. Hstencils neighborhood was fairly sidewalk free and I didn't have a problem with it.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 21:04 (twenty-two years ago)

suburbs were intended to be away from everything hence the alleged lack of sidewalks, they were designed for people who didn't want to live in urban areas. this thread also ignores just how much of america is rural.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 21:08 (twenty-two years ago)

My suburb has sidewalks.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 21:15 (twenty-two years ago)

every suburb I've lived in has had them, and not needed them, cuz you can walk in the street

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 21:17 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah i remember after a certain age riding one's bike on the sidewalk would just be, dorky

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 21:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Mary, my parents' neighborhood has tons of sidewalks! The streets we walked on without sidewalks weren't primarilly streets with houses when they were first built, which is why they don't have sidewalks now.

I'd be interested to see a suburb structured around walking and not driving. I mean, do people not want their goods/services to be close to where they live? That's one of the major advantages of a big city, as far as I can tell.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 22:22 (twenty-two years ago)

"do people not want their goods/services to be close to where they live?" - yes, cuz this = traffic, crowds, etc.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 22:26 (twenty-two years ago)

not if they don't drive!

― hstencil, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 22:29 (twenty-two years ago)

but other people WILL be driving to these stores, etc., trust me the convenience of having a publix/blockbuster/papa johns duplex a block from my parents neighborhood hasn't made up for the extra ten to fifteen minutes it takes to make a left out of the neighborhood every morning now. they are now moving, to another suburb, AWAY from goods/services that will draw in traffic, etc.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 22:32 (twenty-two years ago)

are there any new urbanists revival types on ilx that can drop some science on the whole integrated business/residential zone revolution thingy? I know there's all kinds of talk about this all the time in Athens

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 22:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Blount, what do they do in ten years again when their new place is just as overrun? Move again?

― hstencil, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

Suburbs make walking anywhere very difficult because 1) Zoning ensures that most suburban homes are far from stores, restaurants, movie theatres, etc. therefore there is nothing nearby to walk to except other houses and 2) The road system of cul-de-sacs instead of a grid greatly increases distances between places because it often forces you to take a very non-direct route bewteen places - which is not too big a deal when driving but a huge pain when walking.

I would second reading Kunstler's "The Geography of Nowhere" - he has a website www.kunstler.com.

James: Most of the new urbanist stuff in theory sounds good, but that which has been built has ended up being bought up by rich people and therefore can't really be relied on as proof of anything. The suburbs won't die until you can convince people that raising kids in cities can be safe (among other things). Or oil runs out. Oil will run out first.

― fletrejet, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 23:10 (twenty-two years ago)

stencil - they place they're moving to is amidst many golf course, no danger of being overrun.

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 23:12 (twenty-two years ago)

And Kunstlers main point is that when the oil prices get high enough, we are suprememly fucked because most of people's wealth is invested in suburban houses and all this wealth will disappear because suburbia will no longer be viable and therefore worthless. Yay!

― fletrejet, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 23:15 (twenty-two years ago)

there has been a general trend of a move back to the cities though right? (maybe not with families yet but still..)

― James Blount (James Blount), Tuesday, 6 May 2003 23:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes there has been a bit of a move back to cities among young professionals, wealthier retirees, and homosexuals - i.e people without children. But the overwelming majority of people have kids at some point, and they almost always move out to the burbs if they can and stay there. Its a self fullfilling prophecy - inner cities and their schools are horrible because only the poorest people live there , but if wealthier people didn't flee to the suburbs, it might not have to be that way. It didn't have to be that way - but government policies promoted this. See:

http://prorev.com/blackcities.htm

― fletrejet, Tuesday, 6 May 2003 23:48 (twenty-two years ago)

What, pray tell, are people supposed to do, other than live in the suburbs? There's only so much space in cities, and only so much vomit, urine, feces, and blood that people will stand before they embrace Target and Barnes and Noble whole-heartedly. What, they're supposed to walk a quarter mile to pay two-to-three times the price of wonderful, clean, fresh, suburban produce for the wormy black and blue crap at the corner twinkie/liquor store that's in the city?

Yes, for us aesthetes there's nothing like a living next to a grafitti-covered burnt husk of a building that your great-grandparents worked 18 hours a day to escape, but for those who call it Totally 80s instead of post-punk, the suburbs are a wonderful thing. Don't get me wrong, I hate them too, but at least I know that I'm an asshole.

― Chris H. (chrisherbert), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 01:50 (twenty-two years ago)

are there any new urbanists revival types on ilx that can drop some science on the whole integrated business/residential zone revolution thingy?

Aaron G. to thread!

― j.lu (j.lu), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 03:30 (twenty-two years ago)

>What, pray tell, are people supposed to do, other than live in the suburbs?

Like I said, a self-fulling prophecy. The wasteland of cities you describe is due to the fact that anyone with money goes out to the suburbs because they cannot conceive of cities as anything but wastelands.

― fletrejet, Wednesday, 7 May 2003 10:13 (twenty-two years ago)

Aw, but Kunstler *REALLY* hates the Empire State Plaza in Albany, which is actually one of the most beautiful things about Albany:

http://www.kunstler.com/eyesore.html

― kate, Wednesday, 7 May 2003 10:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I'm stuck with a European mindset. It's not like Putney is terribly thrilling, admittedly, but, within a 15 minute walk from my front door, I have:

Barnes Common
Putney Common
Putney Heath
Richmond Park
Wimbledon Common
Barnes Wetland Centre
Putney Leisure Centre
Rosslyn Park RFC
University of Roehampton
Queen Mary's Hospital
Barnes Green
Barnes Farmer's Market
River Thames
Beverley Brook
Marc Bolan's tree of death
Barnes Station
Putney Station
4 cricket pitches
4 decent restaurants
7 or 8 pubs
Putney High Street

― Mark C (Mark C), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 13:34 (twenty-two years ago)

(that took ages, btw - feel free to have a flick through the links, tedious and suburban as they are :))

― Mark C (Mark C), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 13:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I could write thousands of words about how hostile Texas is to non-drivers, including bicyclers. Not unaccomodating, mind you, and not indifferent. Hostile. The kind of hostility one normally associates with someone who feels threatened. In Texas, after dark, you can legally shoot a man in the face for trying to break into your tool shed. You can carry a concealed weapon, you can fire an employee with no explanation, you can refuse to honor a rental agreement for any or no reason -- you can get by with a lot of shit. But you cannot walk everywhere you go. That's just too much.

HArdly a week goes by when I am not harassed in some way. People yell at me while I'm walking down the street. "Get a car!" seems very popular. While riding a bicycle, I am often either yelled at or "buzzed" -- people will try to run you off the road, or scare the hell out of you. I was recently deliberately sideswiped -- actually deliberately HIT -- by a truck. I cannot fathom why. I was doing nothing illegal. Fortunately, I was unharmed.

I have spent many years wondering why this happens. This is Austin, remember, supposedly a bastion of liberalism in the state. But for some reason, even here people associate walking and bicycling with Communism. I guess. I don't really know what the scary, angry drivers think of me. That I'm slowing them down? No, that can't be it. That I'm threating their car-driving way of life, and if enpough people ride bikes, soon they'll be forced to ride a bike, too? That seems like a stretch. Or am I just funny-looking? I wonder.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 13:59 (twenty-two years ago)

They were fundamentalist vegans, Kenan. Once you've made their hit list, you're only coming off it in a box.

― Mark C (Mark C), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 14:16 (twenty-two years ago)

More carless fun:

I live about 5 miles from where I work, and there is no possible way to get here without a car. You can't ride a bus, because no busses run out this far (5 miles!). You can't ride a bike, because the only road is a half-assed freeway with no shoulder. At the nearest intersection, there is a large sign with a picture of a pedestrain, with a big red circle with a line through him. I shit you not.

Anyway, I've had to make special arrangements to get here everyday. It's just for a couple months, so I figured I could do it. They want to hire me, but I explained that I cannot work here permanently because I do not have a car.

my boss: "But you're going to get a car, right?"
me: "No."
my boss: "Not ever?"

Apparently, I am taking the position of someone who has taken complete leave of his senses.

Three nights ago: I'm walking to the store over the hill, less than a proper city block from my apartment. The cops stop me, citing a city ordinance that says you cannot walk in the street. This despite the fact that the road has a jagged cliff on one side of it, and a ditch on the other.

cop: "Where do you live?"
me: "Right over the hill."
cop: "Don't you have a car?"

To drive 1000 feet? I'm supposed to buy a car in order to comply with a city ordinance that prevents walking?

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 14:18 (twenty-two years ago)

You live in an odd location.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

I live in a city!

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 14:26 (twenty-two years ago)

As noted.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 7 May 2003 14:29 (twenty-two years ago)

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