When, if ever, did you stop thinking Tottenham were one of The Big Clubs?

part of me thinks it was partially bad luck to have such financial problems / very public battle for control of the club at the worst possible time, the early 90s moment when the Premiership / New Elite was forming, because generally the success/otherwise of a club at that moment has been a decent guide for the following decade or so (Liverpool messing up under Souness = never won the Premiership, Everton in a bad state = numerous relegation battles, Forest in decline as Clough held on too long = ten years as a yo-yo club or worse barring one miraculous third place and UEFA Cup run).

the one big exception is Sheffield Wednesday, whose early 90s side was their best for 30 years, which makes their current state an even more monumental cock-up.

I only started this thread because I think it's probably the biggest psychological change in how football fans conceive a particular club - pre-Premiership, it was accepted that Spurs were one of "the big five", always challenging if often frustrating. in the Premiership era, you've become just another mid-table team (and, as you say, that is all you are these days - the least important domestic trophy and a desultory European run following it is pretty much the average mid-table team's achievement in a 10-year period). the stature you've lost is psychological, in the minds of other fans, as much as anything else. the 5-1 at Middlesbrough and the 0-4 to Blackburn were utterly *predictable*; I don't think anyone was surprised by those results. 15 years ago, they would have been.

Sadly, in the vast majority of the time I've been a Spurs fan, we've never been anything *other* than mid-table, with the occasional FA Cup semi-final or relegation struggle in order to alleviate this. It's like Jel says - so many great players have come and gone with bugger all to show for it (although this doesn't really differ from Middlesborough or Blackburn, the latter of whom at least have won a title).

Possibly if we could actually hold onto form for an entire season (Spurs always have one brilliant period in each season, which is then waylaid by a spectacular collapse), or if our players could run for more than five minutes without breaking a leg, we might actually at least push for a UEFA Cup place, which is about as much as we can hope for at the moment.

Also, not being perceived to be one of the big clubs means we've got sod all chance of signing anyone better than Emile Heskey, and are going to have to struggle to hold onto the likes of Davies and Carr in the closed season.

spurs are definitely in that group alongside everton and manchester city, that keep going on about how they are a 'big club'. each time it is said it proves further that they are not. arsenal or liverpool would never go on and on about how they are a big club. why? because it is obvious that they are, there is no need. going on about it is the preserve of teams like wolves. every tinpot team outside the premiership that gets more than 15,000 is obsessed that they are a 'big club' as well.

another interesting thing is a club like Blackburn becoming big as they did in the mid 90s, but despite winning the league and having all the cash did anyone really consider them a big club? i guess not - i suppose they would've had to have been more consistent to really earn that title.

if you only have one of those two factors you are no longer big...actually just having the second one WOULD qualify you, but there no clubs that fulfil the latter and not the former

the ability to take advantage of the huge new financial opportunities

the only thing spurs have going for them is history/name. but i dont see how this makes you different from accrington stanley or everton or whatever

i'm typing 'you' rather than 'them', ive just noticed. i dont remember you ever saying, but is spurs your team nick? i think what is needed here is the fan of a different club to tell us that spurs are a big club (everton dont count, because they are the tottenham of the north)

One of the things that annoy me most about being a Spurs fan is that I hate most other Spurs fans - as if they all think it is OUR RIGHTFUL PLACE to be in the Champions League every season.

I think international standing has a bit to do with it as well... do you need to be playing regular European football to be considered a big club in Premiership terms?

I don't think finance has anything to do with it, really... the only three teams actually making a profit in the Premiership are Man United, Spurs and Charlton, aren't they? There are a load of potential Leeds-esque disasters in the top half of the division, after all.

Spurs fan in wanting it to be 14 years ago shocker.

I suspect they were saying it like a mantra in the spring of '74 as relegation loomed. Or in 71-72 or 85-86 when huge early leads vanished. I suspect fans of every team that has some kind of historical claim to ongoing success and a large following are prone to thinking, "This can't happen to us, because we're us," in times of trouble.

I think I had my say on this topic back in the early days of the Liverpool-Everton thread. The bigness of historically successful clubs seems dwarfed now by the small cabal of giants who've dominated since the inception of the Premiership; the gap seems unbridgable in a way it probably never was before. And if the future encompasses some kind of super Euro league, the likes of Everton can forget any return to glory because nine titles, Dixie, Neville, Alex Young, Ball-Harvey-Kendall and Michael Foot being moved to verse will mean nothing next to a spell of financial mismanagement in the 90s and some incompetent coaching from Smith and Knox, cutting us off from the elite.

When at Thy call my weary feet I turn
The gates of paradise are opened wide
At Goodison I know a man can learn
Rapture more rich than Anfield can provide.
In Coulter's skill and Geldard's subtle speed
I see displayed in all its matchless bounty
The power of which the heavens decreed
The fall of Sunderland and Derby County.

The hands of Sagar, Dixie's priceless head
Made smooth the path to Wembley till that day
When Bolton came. Now hopes are fled
And all is sunk in bottomless dismay.

And so I watch with heart and temper cool
God's lesser breed of men at Liverpool.

I especially like the way it merely commemorates a Cup run - we didn't actually win anything that season.

Then there's Taraabt.... words fail me

Lennon was pretty good yesterday I thought, he is still our best attacking thread in a team that is not exactly striking much fear into anyone right now. I'm still not sure what to make of Pavlyuchenko but good grief his finishing was poor.

The Bent bashing is starting to annoy me, from Redknapp as much as anyone else. He is not the best striker in the country but he still has 14 goals this season which isn't bad going at all. Shame he can't actually partner anyone from what I can see.

Taarabt is the sort of player you see down at the Catford Powerleague, flashy and full of tricks but thinks people aren't allowed to tackle him and he never knows when to pass. Annoying, in other words.

Attacking threat, even.

LOL Lennon, Pavlyuchenko, Jenas... Jesus, they are terrible.

I don't remember a single incident involving Jenas but I thought those other two were OK... I mean I felt like Lennon posed a nominal threat whenever he was running at players, so that's something

xp w/ MDC obv

I've never thought Lennon was any good, so maybe I'm judging him rather harshly, I still can't see the point in a winger who can't cross a ball though

Yeah Taraabt was pretty rotten although still not on a 'stepovers in the centre circle circa injury time v Burnley' level

He must make Spurs fans nostalgic for the days of Kevin-Prince Boateng

'Days' might be stretching it a tad. 'Hours' maybe.

lennon has been better lately, but why for the love of god has nobody pulled him aside and told him to cut inside every time he gets the ball? as tom d said, i've never seen a winger with as poor a cross, and it's not like he's a bag of tricks either if you leave his pace out of it.

in much the same way, taraabt surely must have been told to pass the ball earlier at some stage. maddening, because there's a footballer in there somewhere. can't understand how he's not gone to a wigan or somewhere on loan.

jenas? fairly typical display. both teams played with ten men for the majority of the game.

bent can't play if all he gets are long balls to his head. he doesn't move around much, but it's not like natural goalscorers grow on trees and you'd like to think that a midfield worth 50-60m could possibly play to the strengths of their forward.

keane was right back in the groove- shouting for a free kick on several occasions as the ball bounced a yard in front of him. we've overpaid.

lol

When, if ever, did you stop thinking The Pinefox would post to ILX again?

as soon as I started that thread with the black london fellow slang in the title I realised the damage was done tbh

that is to say, I realised that the pinefox would no longer be on dis ting

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/5417/2431251.jpg

hahahahahaha that's from an arsenal fansite isn't it

definition of "ethnic minorities" important here I feel

jews obv?

oh wait no that would be the opposite.

english players with technique? haven't we done that?

i feel that, with man city's start rising, our place as one of football's 'big four' is under threat.

discuss

liverpool would never go on and on about how they are a big club. why? because it is obvious that they are, there is no need. going on about it is the preserve of teams like wolves.

13th May 2003.

I came to English football only in the late 90's and I tended to think, naturally I believe, of the big two: Arsenal and Man U. The 'big four' are mostly the result of Champions League qualification and that has included among possibly others, since I have started watching football, Chelsea (which I now consider intra-league as one of the big three), Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle and Everton, mostly Liverpool and Cheslea, so I have never really thought of Spurs as 'big four' but I do agree that City's recent ascent has put more pressure on the top, not so much to win the league, really, but to qualify for the CL/Uefa Cup.

It's actually made the UEFA cup place a contest worth winning, I think, becuase it makes CL qualification that much less likely for the aspirants of recent years (Villa, Spurs, Everton.

its been extremely unlikely for years, apart from the odd el nino when Liverpool balls up

Not so- Arsenal shaky for two years or more after their invincibles departed, for instance.

Everton qualified in 2005, and Arsenal were pretty catchable the two years after that I think.

I think of Spurs as being solidly in the Uefa tranche of the PL with increasing competition from City and Villa as of late and slightly less from Everton, though I'd never really write them off. Your form and City's form have bobbed up and down this season and it will likely come down to the last game.

Would think of Everton as a more consistent UEFA cup qualifier than either of us, if I'm honest.

Liverpool's current troubles aside, the long term fallout from City's promotion to superpower will be between them and Arsenal- still a 'big 5' rather than demolishing the 'big 4'

it took nearly 2 decades of success but fergie has achieved his dream of supplanting liverpool at the biggest english club, but not by much. liverpool have a reputation that still runs deep throughout the world. leeds have a lingering big club reputation but they are basically finished now. it would take years and years for them to really reestablish themselves. chelsea and man city are pretend big clubs. arsenal are and always have been chancers and not a true big club. spurs and villa have never got past just being fa cup teams. newcastle have never done anything except talk a good game. wolves and west ham are a bigger teams than newcastle. everton are a genuine sleeping giant, in a coma tho, and wasting away.

Would think of Everton as a more consistent UEFA cup qualifier than either of us, if I'm honest.

Based on recent form, I'd say your star (and City's) is ascendant and theirs less so.

Man Utd were always the biggest English club. It probably dates from Munich at least. In my kids' books they were always the team the protagonists dreamed of playing for or against. I can't imagine how much pleasure the country must've taken from them getting relegated in 74.

Spurs, Villa as deserving as Everton of 'Big Club/Sleeping Giant' status.

Liverpool lol.

xp Totally didn't feel that way when I started properly following football, in like 1988-89

'recent form' was us in relegation spots until the turn of last year, Michael. Everton have been more consistently top 6 than we have, with less wild arcs between triumph and disaster.

if you can count your league wins on one hoof, you are not and never were a big team. sorry dude.

It seemed a bit weird to me too xp, getting into footy maybe five years before that, but looking back there were certain things even then that attracted disproportionate attention because it was Man Utd - Harry's Bournemouth dumping them out the cup, Michael Knighton, them fucking up spectacularly in 85(?). They've always had a cachet that nobody else has had.

Also, when you say big club in Britain, do you mean silverware/achievement or do you mean support base?

Michael there is A LOT of discussion on that very question upthread.

Man United have always felt a bit more glamorous than other clubs, and I'm including Wenger era Arsenal in that. Obviously pre-Wenger Arsenal were the frumpiest club in the country.

Man U seems like the only club that I fully expect to win a game after going down 1-0 in the first half.

In fact I used to say that if you were a promoted team playing them at home, the best strategy would be to try to absolutely kill the game for 80 minutes, try nick a goal through your special set play in the last ten and then try and defend like hell. Of course at Old Trafforrd, that means nicking a goal in the last minute and then defending like hell for the next ten.

who the hell is talking about a big team- we're talkin about a Big Club here. huuge difference!

Success-wise, there was never a dominant club until Liverpool started to rack up titles in the 70s. Before then things were much more egalitarian, like FA Cup wins still is today

Maybe The Wanderers and then Villa in the nineteenth century, if you want to be picky.

Curious. Pre-TV/highways, were there sizeable contingents of fans that would follow their teams all over the country?

Arsenal in the 30's were pretty dominant.

(I didn't like writing that)

xp Totally didn't feel that way when I started properly following football, in like 1988-89

That was a bit of a blip, though. I think Man Utd were always thought of as the biggest / most glamorous club, even though they hardly ever won anything (three FA Cups and nothing else during a 22-year spell when Liverpool hoovered up about ten league titles and four European cups). 'Biggest' in the sense of largest support: United drew the biggest crowds year after year through the 70s and 80s, and were even the best-supported side in the country during the season they were down in division two. 'Most glamorous' really a bit of a fading legacy of the Busby Babes and the Best-Law-Charlton days, rather than anything to do with Whiteside/Robson/Stapleton/Olsen etc. At the very end of the 80s, when football attendances were generally on the up, United's crowds were actually falling below 40,000 for the first time in decades. Liverpool (on the back of the Barnes-Beardsley-Aldridge team) became the best-supported team for a couple of seasons, before United reclaimed that spot at the start of the 90s.

^^ big empty space where the stretford end used to be while they redeveloped the stadium.

That only affected the 92/93 season. I'm talking about a dip in United's attendances in the late 80s when there was still plenty of spare capacity in Old Trafford, coupled with a rise in Liverpool's.

Average crowds during the 80s (thousands), starting 79/80, finishing 88/89:
United - 51.6, 45.1, 44.6, 41.2, 42.5, 42.9, 46.3, 40.6, 39.2, 36.5
Liverpool - 44.6, 37.5, 35.1, 34.8, 32.0, 34.4, 35.3, 36.3, 39.6, 38.7

TOTTENHAM ARE STILL A BIG CLUB!

THIS THREAD IS OVER.