self-depricating humor and people who don't get it

me - "wow, maybe I'm not as smart as I think I am"
him - "yeah, you're totally retarded dude"
me - "yeah, IN YOUR MOUTH"

Sometimes it works, sometimes...

Sterling, do you really think self-deprecating humor didn't exist and/or wasn't at all prevalant before the '90s??? I hope not....Then again, the bizarre idea that "irony" was somehow invented by people born after 1970 has always given me the creeps. (Almost as much as the idea that it's something only people from England are good at.)

The neat thing about this is if you say it enough times, people will either tune you out or start to believe it. If someone is so hell-bent on proving their worthlessness to the people around them who theoretically would be the most supportive of them, then eventually there comes a point where it just isn't worth arguing any more, and you start to just reacting accordingly...it can be a very nice self-fulfilling prophecy.

Without more specifics it's hard to say exactly what prompted the reaction. As many mentioned above, it could just be raising the stakes to see how far the person was willing to allow themselves to badmouth themselves. Or--if this person does it constantly--it could be the snapping point where the other person has just had enough of the constant barrage of self-belittlement.

Alternately, maybe it's one of those situations where it's ok for you to say it, but not ok for anyone else to depreciate; ie the girl-who-rags-on-her-bf-then-stops-talking-to-her-friends-who-agree syndrome.

Which is probably a more interesting question than my original. Also are there like sociological differences in who uses/gets it and who doesn't? I'm thinking of the dad on that 70s show who gets a certain character dead-to-rights.

I find your "gets it" comment troublesome, still, Sterling, because it implies that the listener/reacter doesn't understand what you're trying to accomplish. They may well "get it" but choose not to tolerate it.

a philo teacher I once had who was into greek philo argumented that back then they didn't had self-aggrandizing humor (the way they were praising each other at banquets before the discussions begins etc) so I assume they didn't had self depriciating humor either. When did it begin , I don't know. on top of my head I don't have any example of antique cynics using this figure of style so I don't think it exactly started there

This comment suggests that maybe he sees your use of it as a way of trying to deny the "heavy-handed comments" that you made, in order to make yourself seem like a nice guy. And he thinks if you're really a nice you wouldn't be making these comments in the first place.

(but somewhat disturbing to people who think you're serious or don't know TM)

The reason self-deprecation is getting a little annoying is because it's been hijacked by people who are actually being straight-up self-aggrandizing. You see it in writing a lot -- and I'm sure I do this too often enough: people pull the "oh me, I'm a weirdo" in ways that are attempting to impress you. Like, "god, I'm such a freak, I read 38 books today" or "why do I always lose my new iPod" or especially the one where you talk about something really heady and highbrow and then say "of course only a complete spazz like me is interested in or knows about this stuff." And then we're all supposed to hand out cookies, as if we really believe they're not proud of it at all.

I still have to say that I think both of these statements are ridiculous (though maybe I wouldn't if I understood what exactly constituted the "particular brand" Sterling is referring to.) Again, just because people patted themselves on the back more in the '90s for being cynical about themselves (assuming they even did) doesn't mean people weren't cynical about themselves before then. I mean, didn't you guys ever listen to a Bob Dylan album? (Or whatever?)

Obviously saying that there was never any self-deprecation of cynicism befor the 80s/90s would be patently ridiculous and false. But it still strikes me that there's a real difference in the quantity of it infusing popular culture: I mean, for god's sake, two of the most popular shows of the 90s were the Simpsons--which methodically took ever sacred cow there was and dispatched it--and the X-Files, the main theme of which was that nothing was to be trusted, especially the government. Through the 90s and the last few years the airwaves have been rife with advertisements that implied the products being advertised sucked or weren't particularly outstanding (Sprite anyone?), which were essentially trying to cash in on the cynicism of the target market by saying "hey, look, we know you're too smart to be fooled by advertising, so it doesn't matter if you buy our stuff", which of course would make people buy it for just that reason. (There's your cynicism and self-deprecation all rolled up into one neat little package.) It was also the era where icons of the screen, like DeNiro, suddenly decided that they weren't afraid to look foolish, and consciously parodied themselves. Am I saying this never happened before? Not at all, but it just seemed that making yourself look foolish became much more prominent during the 90s.

Maybe I'm misreading the landscape utterly; I freely admit that I was born at the tail end of the 60s and can't comment on anything earlier than '73 or so from any firsthand perspective (and obviously nothing much until the end of the 70s without my youth inexperience filter).

The '90s "norm" was Celine Dion, Garth Brooks, and the Backstreet Boys (and whatever their TV/movie/literary equivalents were; I forget). (All of whom MIGHT have self-deprecated. But still...)

It's all well and fine to bring up Celine Dion etc as the "norm" for the 90s. But then take a look at Nirvana, whose signature song was nothing if not cynical, and whose lead singer wrote several albums full of self-loathing lyrics, yet still managed to shift millions and millions of copies. Or how about Beck and his self-hating-please-kill-me schtick (which also sold millions and millions)? And there's also other such life-affirming artists as Nine Inch Nails and Marilyn Manson, as well as Radiohead, who also scored a top ten hit with a self-deprecating chorus. That seems like an awful lot of self-hate and jaded etc for the top ten, but obviously these artists are tapping into something that was part of the atmosphere of the 90s. And this is just the music part of the equation, which is admittedly a very limited portion of the question.

So I guess, for me, it comes down to this: What were the analogues from the 60s? Or even the 70s? Pink Floyd's The Wall perhaps? I'm willing to be convinced here, but you haven't swayed me yet.

Chuck, ain't you ever heard "Friends in Low Places"? C'mon now! You lose!

People have always hated themselves, I think it's just become progressively cooler to say you hate yourself over the course of time.

(I would assemble an example but they're all coming out completely loaded to suit one set of purposes, like Steve McQueen vs. David Schwimmer.)

Steve McQueen vs. Harrison Ford maybe? Ford always comes off more "Awww shucks, ME?" than McQueen.

1. You never turned around to see the frowns On the jugglers and the clowns when they all did tricks for you.
Never understood that it ain't no good.
You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you.
You said you'd never compromise With the Mystery Tramp but now you realize
He's not selling any alibis As you stare into the vacuum of his eyes
And he says, "Do you want to make a deal?"

2. *Help* and *Hard Day's Night.* And yes, the Beatles were popular.

3. As was "Parnoid" by Black Sabbath.

4. As were Simon and Garfunkel

5. And later on, Michael Jackson and Axl Rose had a few hits as well.

"Creep" was passive-aggressive, which is a totally different thing.

lot of self-hate and jaded etc for the top ten, but obviously these artists are tapping into something that was part of the atmosphere of the 90s. And this is just the music part of the equation, which is admittedly a very limited portion of the question.

And what you're talking about *was* a very limited portion of the Nineties. The Eighties were supposed to be the decade of the yuppie, but the Nineties were the decade when the yuppies took over. Don't you remember how it was almost a sin not to be happy then?

Anyway, maybe this is a more self-deprecatingly humorous Dylan line:

I went into a restaurant
Lookin' for the cook
I told them I was the editor
Of a famous etiquette book
The waitress he was handsome
He wore a powder blue cape
I ordered some suzette, I said
"Could you please make that crepe"
Just then the whole kitchen exploded
From boilin' fat
Food was flying everywhere
And I left without my hat

(mind you, I'm playing devil's advocate here because I don't actually watch tv)

(The best tv show evah was Gilligan's Island and all it was was laughing at some guy acting like a dick, so obv. this is nothing new!)

Chuck you haven't taken sides, Steve McQueen v. Harrison Ford?

I think it all depends on context. I generally agree with Sterling that to err on the side of self-deprecation and modesty is a lovely and charming trait and that there is an etiquette that requires a response of laughter and/or protestation.

However, because etiquette requires such a response ("haha, don't be ridiculous, now as I was saying . . . "), invoking the obligation to laugh or contradict is something of a social demand, and perhaps Sterling and the friend are momentarily out of synch with the respective proportion of joking and actual communication that goes on. The politest thing for the friend to do would be to laugh but since the friend's response appears to be sarcastic, perhaps the friend is returning the Sterling's demand with a demand that Sterling laugh at his joke, too, in a way?

I have no idea how to respond to this/understand this/etc.

How about responding with a stunned, hurt silence? Then you will see if the friend really means it, and if the friend is all "sorry!" Sterling can say "gotcha!" and the friend will feel manipulated and you see, it never ends. We didn't start the fire, etc.

And yeah, I almost mentioned *Gilligan's Island,* too.

Subtracting all that "I Dream of Jeanie" type humor (assuming '90s TV really did that, though I doubt it) might actually be HOW '90s TV turned negativism into a shtick. It didn't ADD anything. It just took some stuff away. Which is the same thing Nine-Inch Nails (say) did.

That's what I was getting at actually but couldn't be bothered to say it very clearly because I have nothing invested in the discussion besides wanting to bring up "Friends in Low Places"! Negative=always there. Prevailing sense of "Oh we are so negative"=increasingly public.

And so was David Lee Roth, in all those '80s videos. And so on. (In fact, if anything, rock and pop people in '80s MTV videos took themselves way *less* seriously, and were way *more* willing to make fun of themselves, than '90s guys. Think of Boy George. Or Cyndi Lauper. Everybody in the '90s had a fricking stick up their butt!!)

OK, so would you say, Chuck, that is fair to say that we are discussing the difference between being self-depreciating (ie humorous) vs. self-loathing/concious (ie nonhumourous)?

And I haven't even mentioned the Village People!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chuck, I think the different between Roth-style "self-deprecation" and what people here are thinking of is that the modern style of it ostensibly does not resemble flat-out mugging quite as much as Roth's did. Roth's was the sort of "self-aggrandizement in the form of vague self-deprecation" I was talking about earlier. He basically seemed like the kind of 4th-grader who's just as happy to have people laugh at him as he is to have them laugh with him -- whatever, so long as he's getting the attention.

Darren on Bewitched could laugh at himself, but he wasn't usually the one to make the joke, so not self-deprecating.

The kitten. Genghis Khan is dead.

Ok, that had nothing to do with anything but that pointless bit of trivia has been knocking around in my head for days and I'm just gonna let it out on this crazy-ass thread.

I think it's just the opposite, in a way -- The old ones are more interesting because they didn't act like a self-deprecating humor-or-not was an end in itself; they KNEW it was a normal part of life. And to answer your earlier question, they were conscious about it, too. It wasn't an *accident.* They just didn't pretend it was a big deal!

Like, sadly, at points my best response to Sterling's situation has been to kick in with another self-deprecating line, which is the mock-pouty "Hey, only I'm allowed to rip on myself like that." Have you tried something like that, Sterling? Because his response to that might give you some idea what he's getting at when he doesn't go for the self-deprecation.