This is the thread where you give Aaron W words of encouragement as he prepares to take the LSAT

good luck Aaron!

God that's horrible about the bar exam. So THAT'S the sort of thing the LSAT is getting me ready for. I feel pretty good about my chances. Games were giving me trouble but I've finally got the hang of it, I do really well on the Reading Comp, and the Reasoning section is coming along too (that's 1/2 of the test). Mostly right now I have to deal with nerves and the fact that I can't go out and have fun like all my friends (Richie Hawtin is spinning here in Ann Arbor.... oh well).

(psst the answer on question 6 is "D")

Seriously, cleave to this little piece of deductive logic when in doubt: if p ALWAYS means there is q, then if there is no q that means there is no p! Do you see?

Get a lot of sleep the night before, and yeah, eat a banana or something.

Good luck!!!

Indeed! I heart contrapositives!

Thanks again everyone! I kiss you all!

and, uh, what ally said.

if you can master our league (with Rockies pitching), what's gonna hold you back on the LSAT? huh tiger?

Great suggestions about what to bring... definitely gonna have some snack food (Powerbars prolly) on hand.

. Thus, I personally think that relaxation level and the comfort of the test room are significant.

Luckily, I was warned that the testing site at the University of Michigan is a pressure cooker -- literally -- no air conditioning in the middle of the summer. So I'm taking the test in a more relaxed environment at the local community college.

1. I knew that standardized tests are games, and treated this one as no different than any other game.

2. I studied by taking practice tests in real time, no more than once a day.

3. (U&K) When I evaluated my practice tests, I was less concerned with how I'd done and what I'd messed up than with trying very hard to understand exactly why the given correct answer was the best answer.

4. I stopped studying when I had taken three practice tests in a row with satisfactory (to me) results.

5. I slept well before the exam and got to the exam site very early, so that I could sit in the front row and not have to watch others take the exam -- I didn't want to see the flop sweats of others, nor see some Poindexter finishing well before everyone else (as it turns out, I was that Poindexter).

6. I checked my answers calmly when I finished a section before time was called and didn't if I didn't. I only changed an answer if i thought I could articulate a reason why the next answer would be better.

7. I am a damn genius, as I know you are, Aaron. Search and DESTROY!!!

it sounds really arrogant, but then again, UM is known for cheering 'that's all right, that's ok, you'll all work for us someday'. so yeah. put on a UM shirt and feel like an elitist, if only for a day. you'll do great!

And, good luck on your LSATS!

But I think I'm gonna take Colin's advice and sit in the front row so I can't see anyone else. I'm also planning to spend the next two weeks taking practice exams... whee!

If you noticed a warm glow in the night sky in the direction of Denver last fall, that was mine. FIIIIIII-YERRRRRRRRRRRRRR! It rawked.

50 Cent is genius. Guinness and sangria are da bomb. Fuck I gotta go to my stupid ass job tomorrow.

I kiss all of ILX. NYC here I come.

Hey Felicity.... so I was supposed to meet with my Kaplan instructor at a bar for celebrating, but instead there was just the cute girl from my class who I maybe flirted with JUST A LITTLE (I swear). Is it okay that I felt good when I dropped.... "so my girlfriend blah blah blah"? God I love that girl.

God I'm drunk. God I'm gonna be embarressed by this tomorrow. Fuck it.

Who took my drink?

So, now my sister and Aaron are both gonna be lawyers. The world will soon be a better place and all that.

Are you applying for Fall '08? I'm in the same miserable process. I got a 170 but my grades are REALLY bad (2.9). I've already been rejected from NYU early decision (no big surprise). I guess my top choices out of the ones I have a realistic shot at are Fordham, Cardozo and Rutgers Newark. I've been out 5+ years and working full-time consistently but I don't have anything really incredible on my resume. Filling out these applications is being reminded of your shortcomings over and over again - I already have 8 submitted and I'll probably at least do one or two more.

yeah, I'm applying 2008. I'm basically waiting for my transcripts to go through, which is taking forever (and probably won't get done until the second week of January, which hopefully won't be too late).

The whole numbers thing really does take your ego down a notch or three.

Also when you get asked about the hardship stuff you're reminded about all the applicants who overcame more than you did and still did better.

LSAC and the admissions offices seem to be slow - most of the applications I already have in took 3 weeks to one month from the day I hit "submit" to the day I got an e-mail from the school saying my app was "complete." And that was with my transcripts and my recs already prepared and my LSAT long-past.

crap, I'm probably way too late with my transcripts then - I just sent them in last week and my professor only responded to my forever-ago recommendation request last week, too.

This whole process has been pretty brutal, and it makes you wonder if it' s all even worth it ... I want to do public interest work, but other lawyery stuff isn't all that well paying or in demand relative to other careers these days. (at least in NYC).

I'm sure you know some schools have tuition repayment/loan forgiveness programs for public interest law. That said, if your only goal in law is public interest, I get the sense that you'd better be strongly committed to that, because the jobs are low-paying AND competitive. You might also consider whether there might not be an area of law you'd be satisified practicing enough to earn a decent living and then do a significant pro-bono practice on the side. Law school does either beat the public-interest interest out of a lot of people or overwhelm it with greed, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't go for it if you want it.

Every field in NYC is ultra-competitive and the cost of living is super high, so the city can warp one's perspective a little. But it's true that there are an awful lot of new lawyers being minted relative to demand. I have those worries myself.

A friend of mine who went to NYU found a good compromise in (probably) working for the city. He'll make mid-to-high five figures to start with great benefits and a pretty light schedule, and he's interested in public policy.

It's funny how competitive public interest work is; my suspicion is a lot of thse people want to go into politics?

I already live in NYC and know some lawyers who do public interest work ... it's all pro-bono or for the state (NY and NJ mostly). I'm perfectly happy doing that if it's the case, but it really is my sole interest. Money doesn't do much for me, I have no real personal life, and no particular desire to get married or have a family... I've been single for years, and will be for years more. I'm just passionate about public issues, and law fits my skills in academics and writing.

Yeah, I'm similar in the sense that I'm happy to live a modest lifestyle and don't even particularly like most things associated with luxury. I do want to have kids at some point. I'm interested in the public stuff but not enough to devote myself to it, I'm afraid. Ultimately I guess I just see the degree as a measure of increased security and chance at a real career that suits my skills. The debt thing hampers that feeling a bit, which is part of why Rutgers is a top choice.

Slutgers

I thought for a time journalism would be my career, and I'd probably be happy to stay in it if the salaries were even enough to live half-decently in this area. My first job didn't even pay enough to move out of my student off-campus house.

What job was that? Journalism is bad right now, unless you do that service journalism crap. I was lucky and scored a copywriting job for one of those faceless Japanese corporations that have their headquarters in the metro area.

First I worked for a community weekly newspaper for a year. Now I work for a legal news service, which actually pays great but doesn't offer much in the way of skills development or advancement. I've been in the job almost four years and I've been completely stagnant for the last year.

If I wanted to go back to real reporting it'd be several years before I was making a real salary again.

What's the legal news service do?

Mostly summaries of new lawsuits (which are painfully simple to write) and appeals decisions (which can actually take some thoinkin) - these in turn go out to subscribers via e-mail. We also have a web site and a legal news blog that's pretty good. I've written twice for the blog, hope to do it more but haven't really prioritized it among the things competing for my time.

Law school application process = determination by numbers.

That's it.

If you end up going to Harvard Law, you end up going to law school with a bunch of people who did REALLY REALLY well on their LSAT and did REALLY REALLY well in undergrad. This does not mean that everyone there is destined to be a Supreme or a partner at Jones Day. The flip side is that some really, really smart people go to some ill-regarded law schools. These people COULD be called underachievers, or, like me, could have had a real rough time of it first and second years of undergrad and then torched it once they changed majors/schools/took their head out of their asses/etc.

My advice is:

Go to the "best" place you can get into, regardless of the debt - you will have your whole life to pay it off. Having a "better" law school on your diploma will, in the end, pay for itself. I promise you this.

Law school is an evil, evil place that warps a whole lot of people into being ugly, self-centered people. Think middle school, only with adults. That said, the PRACTICE of law is terribly fun, and I encourage anyone who is interested in the practice of law to take time to talk with attorneys about this - law school =/= being a lawyer.

Hmmm, I know a lot of people who got into really good schools who had numbers way below the median (well, GPA way below the median, LSAT at or one point below median).

What made up for it was the whole package ... work experience, personal statement, intentions, etc. At least, I'm hoping that's the case for me. :{

Obviously it's not a "pure numbers game" because there are more people with Harvard numbers than there are slots at Harvard.

the numbers play a big role in the admissions decision. where you went to undergrad is not insignificant, tho. and a good number will compensate to at least a mild extent for a bad one.

hmmm, is 164 a decent LSAT? I'm not sure it's enough to compensate for my terrible GPA.

164 is a good LSAT - 92nd percentile or so.

It's good to keep in mind the curve of the LSAT. Only about one percent of test-takers are scoring over 172. It gets harder to climb in percentile, the higher up you get in score.

raw score | scaled score | percentile rank

98–101 -------- 180 --------- 99.9
97 ------------ 179 --------- 99.9
96 ------------ 178 --------- 99.9
94–95 --------- 177 --------- 99.8
93 ------------ 176 --------- 99.8
92 ------------ 175 --------- 99.7
91 ------------ 174 --------- 99.6
90 ------------ 173 --------- 99.4
88–89 --------- 172 --------- 99.1
87 ------------ 171 --------- 98.8
86 ------------ 170 --------- 98.4
84–85 --------- 169 --------- 97.8
83 ------------ 168 --------- 97.2
81–82 --------- 167 --------- 96.4
80 ------------ 166 --------- 95.2
78–79 --------- 165 --------- 94.1
77 ------------ 164 --------- 92.5
75–76 --------- 163 --------- 91.1
73–74 --------- 162 --------- 88.9
72 ------------ 161 --------- 86.5
70–71 --------- 160 --------- 83.9
68–69 --------- 159 --------- 81.3
67 ------------ 158 --------- 78.3
65–66 --------- 157 --------- 74.5
63–64 --------- 156 --------- 70.4
61–62 --------- 155 --------- 66.5
60 ------------ 154 --------- 63.3
58–59 --------- 153 --------- 58.7
56–57 --------- 152 --------- 54.8
55 ------------ 151 --------- 50.5
53–54 --------- 150 --------- 45.9
51–52 --------- 149 --------- 41.4
50 ------------ 148 --------- 37.9
48–49 --------- 147 --------- 33.6
46–47 --------- 146 --------- 29.4
45 ------------ 145 --------- 26.5
43–44 --------- 144 --------- 23.8
42 ------------ 143 --------- 20.4
40–41 --------- 142 --------- 17.4
38–39 --------- 141 --------- 15.4
37 ------------ 140 --------- 13.2
35–36 --------- 139 --------- 10.7
34 ------------ 138 --------- 9.7
33 ------------ 137 --------- 7.7
31–32 --------- 136 --------- 6.9
30 ------------ 135 --------- 5.4
29 ------------ 134 --------- 4.5
28 ------------ 133 --------- 3.9
27 ------------ 132 --------- 3.0
26 ------------ 131 --------- 2.5
25 ------------ 130 --------- 2.0
24 ------------ 129 --------- 1.6
23 ------------ 128 --------- 1.3
22 ------------ 127 --------- 1.0
21 ------------ 126 --------- 0.9
20 ------------ 125 --------- 0.8
19 ------------ 124 --------- 0.6
18 ------------ 123 --------- 0.5
17 ------------ 122 --------- 0.4
16 ------------ 121 --------- 0.4
0–15 ---------- 120 --------- 0.0

the MCAT is similarly curved. i only mention this because the various ILx lawyering threads are the only place my pre-medical acceptance anxiety really plays

hey maybe i should get an md/jd

164 is decent; you probably want to be around 166 and upwards, depending on where you went to school. based on very unscientific evidence, i think it's easier to get into places outside major metros that have the most big firm jobs.

Having a "better" law school on your diploma will, in the end, pay for itself. I promise you this.

I'm not gonna say this is wrong, but there are "worse" schools in major metros with big local alumni connects that theoretically might get you a better job (and a higher gpa) than "better" schools outside them.

My life is in NYC, and all my family and friends are in the major cities of the Northeast ... I'd rather not go to law school than go off to the south or the midwest. It's a competitive scene when 90+ percentile is considered a lukewarm score.

yeah, I was ultimately unwilling to go to the "best" school I got into (outside the BosWash corridor) even though a Biglaw partner told me I was crazy not to. was I wrong? maybe. did it make a big difference? I doubt it.

Probably not - I've traveled a little, and there's nothing worth having outside the Northeast or West Coast unless you have a family already. or you are from there.

It feels almost pointless to apply anywhere with my numbers, but eh, I'll try anyway. Tier 2 schools seem like a waste of money.

what's Tier 2?

80 and down I think ... Cardozo, Brooklyn Law, all that stuff in NYC. The WSJ just did an expose showing that just about nobody from those schools, or other Tier 2s, get any jobs.

One other thing complicating the numbers game is that these numbers actually fluctuate greatly from year to year. You could get admitted to adn choose to attend the #30 school and leave the #10 school.

people from those schools get jobs in NYC, it just gets harder and more regional the lower you get. you want to focus on the top 25-35, tho.

uh no, not really, xpost

When I was applying to law schools, people who were already lawyers would always say things like, "Don't go to law school! Turn back! Nooooooooooooo!" and I'd get all pissed off like, "Just because you suck doesn't mean I'm going to hate law school and being a lawyer. Christ." And I didn't hate law school while it was happening and I passed the bar on the first go and had a job waiting for me as soon as I got my bar results back so everything really worked out fine and yet I still find myself wanting to post nothing more helpful here than, "Don't go to law school! Turn back! Noooooooooooooo!" and I just cannot figure out why I'm so bitter.

I think I'm still tired from nonstop studying for three years.

Anyway, good luck. I picked a geographical location (Chicago) and applied to pretty much all the schools in the area. I had extraordinarily shitty undergrad grades and (I think) a slightly better LSAT score than you. I ended up at an expensive, second tier school with a lot of local name recognition. What really ended up working in my favor was the three years of volunteer work I did in my field of interest. That opened a lot of doors. So to say it was a waste of money is wrong (and sounds really snotty, tbh). Law review caliber students at my school went to big firms, some of my friends were selected for competitive public interest fellowships, all the things you get when you go to a top tier school. The difference is that at UC, you are pretty much guaranteed the job of your choice. At 2nd Tier School you might have to work a little harder for it. But if working hard doesn't appeal to you, you might want to reconsider law school after all.

I guess it all boils down to that all important question: Do you want to be a lawyer for the rest of your life? If yes, go to law school that best meets your needs. If no, consider going to school for something else.

Gabb schools regularly jump 5-10 places in a single year in the USNews poll. The numbers are so tight in some cases that that's how it works.

The WSJ just did an expose showing that just about nobody from those schools, or other Tier 2s, get any jobs.

That is some real bullshit, from my second tier attending, job having perspective (and I was in the top quarter of my class but I wasn't on law review and didn't do moot court or any of that other bullshit that you're supposed to do to get jobs). My school has an 80% employment rate six months out from graduation. But I'd like to read the article if you could point me to a link. It was probably written by a bitter lawyer.

Also here: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/09/20070927-1.html

Get and keep a public interest/government job and the gov't will forgive some of your loans.

I remembered wrong, but here's the article I was thinking of: http://college.wsj.com/salarydata/law/20070926-efrati.html

People keep saying because of my numbers I might not have a chance at anywhere decent, and the school with the most resources I'm interested in is a little out of reach. it's all worth a shot, though.

Do you want to be a lawyer for the rest of your life? If yes, go to law school that best meets your needs. If no, consider going to school for something else.

This really is the most relevant question ever. There are, of course, the stories of others who didn't really go into law once they graduated from law school. Those are the statistical outliers.

Luckily, I like practicing law. Ergo, I have the career that I like.

That is some real bullshit, from my second tier attending, job having perspective

X-motherfucking-post, J. I not only attended a second-tier school, I attended a second-tier school on the other side of the country, and I STILL have a job. Took a little while to get it, but I still have one. Much of this "Second tier students don't get jobs" bullshit is propagated by the bitter lawyer who see jobs at big firms as the only way to go. Although those jobs have their merits, there are a TON of other jobs out there.

Yeah, I think a lot of people have an idea that big firm jobs are the only jobs worth having, which from my perspective couldn't be further from the truth. I went to law school after a decade of various work experience, some in big corporations, so I figured if I wanted to stay in that environment, I'd save myself a big chunk of change by not going to law school at all.

I'm a happy little public servant now (in my area of interest even), clinging to my gov't job come hell or high water for ten years because see above link re: loan forgiveness.

I think the problem is really just as much in the absurd tuition costs as it is in the job market. Really there shouldn't be anything wrong with a graduate field in which some graduates of less-than-top schools can only expect mid to high five figures after a three-year program. It's just that we have the idea that law school is a ticket to wealth, and law school is priced as though it is.

Public interest/service is my only reason for going to law school ... becoming a lawyer to make money these days is stupid since MBAs, etc., make 10x more at the minimum.

So ... from the inside, what are the opportunities like in that field? for someone with my #######?

People keep saying because of my numbers I might not have a chance at anywhere decent, and the school with the most resources I'm interested in is a little out of reach. it's all worth a shot, though

what's 'decent'? are you gonna get into fordham? not necessarily, but you might. are there decent schools below that level? if you make the most of them, yeah. you could also apply to some of: BU, GW, BC, GMU, Hastings, Maryland, American.

but what other people are saying here is pretty otm.

What's GW - George Washington?

yes

Yeah - I just read the WSJ article and there is some truth in there. Hurting has it right. Law school tuition is nutso but, just like you said, unless you are in the top 10% of your 2nd tier or lower school, or you went to a top law school, or you're closely related to a senior partner at a firm, you're unlikely to get a job that pays enough to covwer those loans. PLUS if you do get one of high paying big firm jobs.... whoooooeeee you have to work your tail off to keep it.

Burt if you're not going for the money, you should pick a school that is known for its support of public interest law-focused students. Look for one with an LRAP (loan repayment assistance program), a clinic that focuses on an area of law that you are interested in, and lots of public interest classes. Once you get through your first semester, find out legal service organizations where you can volunteer/get summer intern or externships. Pick a school with an inter/externship program - I did an externship w/ the EEOC that helped me get my current job. Make friends with your professors, particularly ones who are well-known or published or active in your given field. Join professional/student organizations (like NLG, PILA, minority bar associations) and put on a tie and go to their events and smile and shake hands.

And while I agree that grades are not the measure of a person's worth, I do think it's true that your chances of getting a job that you like increase some if your grades are better. So work as hard as you can. You can make that easier by picking classes that really interest you and researching professors.

Basically you're looking at three years of hard work and hustle, but if you really want to be a lawyer, it's totally going to be worth it.

but again, the schools start to regionalize a bit and you may want to prefer schools in the city you want to work

I am wasting tax payer dollars so back to work for me but if you want to you can email me - rabbit rabbit at the geeeeeemail.

There is no one path for a law student or a lawyer. High grades + High LSAT = Harvard/Stanford/etc. Law = Big Firm Partnership is but one path.

I can't keep posting here, because I have some really interesting research to continue. And then a brief to write. And I couldn't be happier about it.